Does anyone know what the deal is with Airsoft players??


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Ridge
April 1, 2005, 04:27 AM
Don't get me wrong I'm not downing them or anything but,I was looking around an Airsoft website and they're charging from $375.00 to $700.00 for bb guns.

Just one question....W.T.F.?

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CleverName
April 1, 2005, 04:38 AM
They're almost all imported, it's a lot harder to seriously hurt somebody with a airsoft gun, and generally a lot less "restricted" than gun ownership. Besides, $700 for a automatic BB gun is a whole lot cheaper than at several thousand for a MAC-11.

Thing I hate about the airsoft community though is that all the weapons are customized "Mall Ninja" style - everything is designed to look nice (or more importantly to them, unique). I've seen several TM MP5's converted to the HK94 long barrel.

Ridge
April 1, 2005, 04:51 AM
I'm sorry but it just strikes me as a little odd,B.T.W. I saw a few of those "Mall ninja" shoot out their eyes pea shooters,I'm sorry but if I wanted a bb gun I'd buy a red ryder or a crossman,and pay alot less.

CleverName
April 1, 2005, 04:57 AM
Yeah, but a Red Ryder doesn't look like the newest greatest Hi-Speed Lo-Drag Snake-eater tactical carbine. Half of the appeal of airsoft is that they look like real guns, and you can shoot people with them fairly safely (they're (probably) not much more dangerous than paintball) - ideal for the Walter Mitty/Mall Ninja in all of us. Airsoft is also the only way a Californian 16 year old can "own" a FA-anything resembling a rifle.

And if I have the choice between being shot by a Crossman firing metal BB's or an electric Airsoft with the plastic ones...

Oh yeah, remember that Airsoft started in Japan, where DC/California's gun laws look positively permissive. This is the closest most Japanese will get to a real gun unless they either join the SDF/Police or move.

cracked butt
April 1, 2005, 08:07 AM
This is the closest most Japanese will get to a real gun unless they either join the SDF/Police or move.

I remember reading awhile back that a Japanese kid came to the US and cleaned up on some pistol shooting discipline- steel plates I think. The closest thing he had to practice with in his homeland was an airsoft pistol.

A lot of the high end airsoft guns make airguns look like unsophisticated toys. Why would you want a red ryder when you can have an M16 of HK clone that you can shoot FA for very cheap (not counting the price of the rifle of course)

q102josh
April 1, 2005, 08:10 AM
aren't they kind of like toys? i mean they dont even use real BB's, the BB's made of plastic.

jobu07
April 1, 2005, 08:37 AM
I'm sure if you were "in to" air soft it would justify the cost. Using it every weekend or something. They probably look at us and say "why spend a grand on that rifle, i'll never use it?" Or something to that avail. To each his own I say. If they like it and are responisble enough while doing it to not run around pointing the "toys" at cops, then let them have thier fun! :)

Personally, i'll stick to the real deal.

Browns Fan
April 1, 2005, 09:13 AM
I, too, fail to see the draw. Every time I see these things at a gun show, I'm a little puzzled. :confused:

Harry Tuttle
April 1, 2005, 09:26 AM
did y'all miss the 6 page riotous thread on AR15.com about the habits of Airsofties?

SNoB
April 1, 2005, 09:33 AM
People play it just like paintball, dress up in camo, go out into the woods and shoot each other with them. People spend well over a grand on paintball guns.

jobu07
April 1, 2005, 09:36 AM
I did indeed miss the thread on AR-15 as i don't frequent that site. Do you have a link? I'd like to see it.

Tijeras_Slim
April 1, 2005, 09:38 AM
Maybe they're the rejects from the loser, eh I mean lazer, tag community. :rolleyes:

CAS700850
April 1, 2005, 09:47 AM
Hey, to each his or her own. I have an airsoft pistol. Fun, quiet target practice in my garage. Of course, I paid $20 for the gun (Sig 226), ammo, and sticky target.

I can't understand paying a fortune for an airsoft gun either. BUt, I'd imagine some of teh airsoft people can't undertsnad why I pay so much for real ammo when the plastic pelets are so cheap.

Harry Tuttle
April 1, 2005, 09:55 AM
it went 36 pages:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=333182

TechPyle
April 1, 2005, 10:39 AM
Airsoft is also the cheapest way for a group of people to practice force on force. The air blow back pistols look like the real thing, function very closely to the real thing (At least mine does but it is for a Glock 19) has simular weight, and fits holsters made for the G-19. Cheap way of doing force on force training as long as the scenerios are kept withen reason.

cracked butt
April 1, 2005, 10:46 AM
That arfcom thread is freaking hillarious. But one has to question the motives of people belonging to a site dedicated to plastic mouseguns calling those who play with platic bb guns "poseurs and wannabe's" Hello Mr Kettle, this is Mr Pot calling. :D

G36-UK
April 1, 2005, 11:47 AM
Well, it's a hell of a lot easier to get Airsoft guns over here. There's a community over here practically, so there isn't as much frowning done on us as there would be if we owned real guns.

dleong
April 1, 2005, 11:53 AM
did y'all miss the 6 page riotous thread on AR15.com about the habits of Airsofties?
I perused that thread some nights back. Interesting read, to say the least. Most of the contributors in that thread could have been a bit more diplomatic in expressing their distaste for Airsoft.

I was, however, shocked at the almost complete lack of trigger and muzzle discipline exhibited by the Airsoft players depicted in the images. Almost every person shown holding an Airsoft model had his finger on the trigger. I wonder if any of them would handle a real firearms the same way. Scary!


DL

cls12vg30
April 1, 2005, 12:03 PM
I've got a $20 single-shot Airsoft pistol for training purposes, it's pretty realistic in weight, they put weights in the magazine. You can also get 6mm paintballs for them.

What pi$$ed me off was once when I somehow linked to a UK airsoft site, and they were ranting about how awful it was that it was so "easy" for we Americans to get the real thing. MYOFB.

:cuss:

anapex
April 1, 2005, 12:14 PM
So far the only airsoft gun that has tempted me was a FA M1 Thompson clone. Too bad they wanted something like $350 for it, I'd rather buy the snub revolver I've been looking for for that price.

Vitamin G
April 1, 2005, 12:15 PM
I wish i could shoot MY sar-1 for $19 for 5000 rounds...

I can't say i really played much airsoft, but i played alot of paintball...






Its the same reason people spend $1000 on a rifle that they shoot paper with once a month, dont hunt with, and show off to their friends...

1) They can
2) Its FUN
3) They enjoy it.

ckyllo
April 1, 2005, 12:58 PM
a good gas blow back airsoft pistol goes for $100 spair mag $30 gas 1000ml $15 saftey glasses $10 and 5000 bbs for $ 15. get an area to pratice room clearing and reloads with the targets shooting back... priceless

not as real as it could be when in the woods since you can be protected by a shrub an the range isnt there but. when it comes to room clearing and close quaters they are great to add some movement to targets and haveing to take cover. cause paper dont shoot back, even if it is only plastic bbs.

I have a airsoft pistol that is the same as my carry/idpa gun. so I can pratice with the same holster pouches and sometimes I learn somthing at one and use it at the other. so I get the best of both worlds. it makes it a good training aid but is no replacement to real gun training .

RyanM
April 1, 2005, 01:11 PM
What I don't like about airsoft is the elitist attitude of some "squads" (or whatever they call themselves) if you ever feel like actually shooting someone other than the neighborhood kids (in a safe manner, using eye protection, with all guns clearly marked with orange, and the police notified ahead of time, etc). "What? All you've got is a GBB and a springer? Where's your camo that doesn't even make it harder to see you at airsoft ranges? Where's your red-dot scope, even though the max range for these things is 100 feet? Where's your super-tactical camel pack thingo? Get outta here, kid, and don't come back until you've spent at least a grand on worthless junk!"

The most I've paid is $100 for a gas blow-back 1911, because:

1. It's fun
2. Trigger time is trigger time (though I think I've gotten spoiled by that 2.5 pound trigger)
3. It's fun!
4. That particular model uses CO2 powerlets instead of overpriced gas (120 shots per powerlet, and it's about 5 times more powerful than the airsoft version of the Crosman 1008, which only gets 50 shots/powerlet)
5. IT'S FUN!
6. It's got all the controls in exactly the same spots, so the muscle memory will already be there when I save up the $5,000 for a real 1911.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 1, 2005, 01:26 PM
Personally, I hate to see gun people bashing the Airsoft crowd. Last time I looked, it wasn't like we had enough political power to be very secure in our rights.

Now along comes a group that is in to gun-like things (and the fun ones at that, not just the John Kerry approved $20k side-by-sides). They are into tactics and they are actually pretty knowledgable about a lot of nylon gear that is quite useful if you plan to shoot anywhere there isn't a table and range cart set up for all of your gear. They even get attacked by the blissninnies in many countries with calls to outlaw or restrict their relatively modest toys.

For bonus points, they are comprised primarily of young people who will be playing a major role in deciding whether this country (and others) wants more liberty or less in the future.

We should be doing everything we can to share our collective knowledge with these people. Not only will we likely learn something in return, we'll ultimately help ourselves by adding more people who care about liberty and prize their rights.

Beetle Bailey
April 2, 2005, 02:48 AM
I've tried it a few times and I have to admit, it was pretty fun! My buddy kept saying "C'mon, you get to practice 'force on force' instead of just shooting at things that don't move. . ." Well, it sounded good, but in reality, we were all just running around freelancing (no real team tactics) :o .

To make matters worse, since you have to wear a face-mask for protection, you can't get a cheekweld for your assault rifle, so I was forced to spray and pray :uhoh: (with a pistol, you can at least use the sights).

As far as the guys I was playing with, some of them owned real guns as well, but rarely shot them and probably have more money put into the airsoft stuff than the real stuff. But that sorta makes sense for them since they use their airsoft stuff a lot more.

I suppose I'd be more open to buying this stuff if it wasn't for all the real guns I'd rather spend my disposable income on. Hmmm. . . last month I spent a couple hundred bucks on a milsurp Enfield bolt-action rifle. That rifle doesn't really add anything to my ability to defend myself or my country. I'm not going to take it out hunting. The most interesting thing I'm probably going to do with it is see if I can get "15 aimed shots in one minute" with it, since I hear that was the minimum standard of qualification with the Enfield (I admit that it's mainly for bragging rights ;) ). I don't really see how I'm superior to some guy who spends a couple hundred bucks on a toy just so he can safely shoot his friends :scrutiny: .

Ridge
April 2, 2005, 02:53 AM
I wasn't trying to come off as feeling superior I was just wondering.

nico
April 2, 2005, 03:29 AM
Airsoft seems like it would be fun to try sometime. I would think it'd be a lot like paintball. A friend of mine has been into paintball since middle school and is on my scool's paintball team. I've played a few times and it was a lot of fun.

For the people questioning the logic in spending that much on something that isn't a "real gun," airsoft (and paintball) guns are just a piece of equipment made for a game. When you really look at it, that's what a lot of real guns are too. You can't really use a single barrel trap gun for anything but trap singles, and what use does an open class STI (which costs about 10x as much as a pretty high end airsoft gun) have outside of IPSC? They're all really just toys designed for games.

edit: after looking at the pics in that ar15.com thread, there are definitely a lot of dorks who play airsoft, but I still say to each his own. Anybody who says there aren't dorks in the "real" shooting community hasn't seen the cowboy actioin competitions on ShootingUSA.

Warren
April 2, 2005, 03:35 AM
Oh man, don't even get me started on those hyper-elitest Airsoft benchrest shooters!






:neener:

CleverName
April 2, 2005, 07:46 AM
I had a long rant-ish post planned out when I realized it was better directed at arfcom and the particular idiocy in the thread there.

I lived in Hong Kong, one of the origin points of airsoft, in the mid-90's. I was around 8. I have visited often before and since that time. And the only real guns I have ever seen were on men and women with "Police" on their uniforms (of course I knew that the Triad had guns, but I never saw and knew that I saw a Triad), and the occasional jewler's guard with a beat-up shotgun - stading in the middle of a busy street, of all places. Only recently did I find out that gun clubs even existed. Airsoft - and particularly the British bans/restrictions on them - should be a disturbing reminder that if we do not fight for our rights, we might one day be trying to protect our ability to own airsoft.

Basically, if you see a airsofter, talk to them about trying a real gun. Most can see the connection between owning airsoft, which has come under fire lately, and owning real guns.

And PLEASE tell them about finger/muzzle disclipline. It's OK to cover somebody with a super-light airsoft AEG when we're all playing around in the woods and tyring to take each other out, but definitely NOT any other time. There are far too many dangerous (no eye protection, airsoft at very close range, finger on trigger, muzzle sweeping somebody) photos on the net.

S3Project
April 3, 2005, 07:38 PM
For what it's worth...

Before I got into airsoft, I was ignorant on the gun issue. I took what the media fed me, and was generally anti-gun.

Then I got interested in airsoft, which lead into an interest in real guns, and now I'm quite the gun-rights advocate. I've also converted my mom, and am working on other people I know..:)

wasrjoe
April 3, 2005, 07:50 PM
I am not a fan of Ar-15.com. It's like reading the Democratic Underground, except arfcom actually gets stuff right. Lots of childishness, "gaming" the forum and general uncivility. While I often find the restrictions on this site a little suffocating, it only takes a trip there to make me appreciate Oleg's standards.

pbhome71
April 3, 2005, 08:09 PM
You guys made me curious about airsoft. There is an airsoft "Pro" shop near by my work. I think that I'll go check it out tomorrow.

-Pat

Malone LaVeigh
April 3, 2005, 10:41 PM
The majority of the posters on that AR15.com thread demonstrated less intelligence and maturity than the kids thay were talking about. OK, I only got about half-way down the first page, but I think I got the drift...

jobu07
April 3, 2005, 10:52 PM
Just got done reading that thread. And while some of the photos were funny, MAN am I glad to be on THR.

Hellbore
April 3, 2005, 10:52 PM
I have a collection of real guns which I enjoy shooting. I also enjoy hunting.

I also have a collection of paintball guns and I enjoy paintball. I have one paintball gun that cost over $1000.

To me, paintball is very fun and a thrill. It's great fun trying to out-maneuver and out-wit your opponents. I especially like working with my team to flank the enemy or otherwise outwit them. It is quite a rush too, because the paintballs really do hurt when they hit you. Also it is easy to know if you hit someone, because the paint is all over them.

Airsoft, however, is like Laser Tag: I don't see the draw. I don't get what is so fun about it. You have to use an honor system, if you shoot someone they can deny they were hit and there's no way that I know of to verify. The BB's don't hurt unless they hit bare skin. With paintball, it's a substantial impact and it stings and even can leave a welt. In my opinion, Laser Tag and Airsoft are weak excuses for wargames. Paintball is the only really fun one for me.

That's not the only reason I don't like airsoft. One thing I like about paintball is that the guns are built specifically to hurl a ball of paint, and they are designed to do the best job possible. The cosmetics of the gun are secondary. Because of the design and layout of a paintball gun, they don't look much like a real gun. Even if a paintball gun looked remotely like a real gun, the big plastic hopper sticking off the top is usually enough to tip you off that it's not a real gun, as well as the big air tank hanging off the back! Also, paintballers usually use protective equipment that makes it obvious what they are doing, like the paintball masks and such. Even pistols look very little like real guns - What few paintball pistols exist, they are very large and clunky and don't look like real pistols. If anything, paintball guns look like space-age rayguns or else some crazy plumbing experiment :)

Airsoft guns, on the other hand, are specifically made to look like real guns. It is VERY easy to mistake an airsoft gun for a real gun. Just look at how many people have been shot because a cop thought their airsoft gun looked like a REAL gun. Kids take these realistic airsoft guns and do stupid things with them and get themselves shot. It's a much bigger hazard, in my opinion. Just recently my nephew was brandishing around an airsoft gun at a family gathering in a park. I chewed his ass out because he was in a public place brandishing what looked exactly like a Beretta pistol. I told him he was going to get his ass shot if he didn't leave that stupid toy at home. Those damn things need to stay on private property or in designated airsoft fields. You go waving those around in public, you're asking for it.

Besides, he was shooting his cousins with it and goofing around. See, I like paintball because you DON'T want to get shot. With paintball if you get shot in the eye, you're gonna lose that eye. You better not goof around shooting people who aren't wearing a mask, and you better nto shoot yourself with it, because it HURTS! I like this because it helps you learn a little bit about gun safety. Paintball gun safety is important, as is real gun safety. With airsoft guns, there is no safety taught or enforced. They just goof around and I think it gives them bad habits. They get into the habit of not being careful while handing something that looks EXACTLY like a real gun... Don't you think those bad habits could carry over into how they treat a real gun, which looks and feels the same as their Airsoft gun they were brandishing around and shooting their friends in the face with?

For example, one time we were paintballing. The match was over and as we were walking back to the starting area, one kid had a jammed paintball gun... My paintball gun had a barrel blocking device on it, which I put on whenever I am playing, so that nobody gets accidentally shot between matches. I tell this kid, "here, hold my gun, don't touch the trigger". I hand it to him, and as he takes it from my hand, the gun goes off. I chewed his ass out BIG time and didn't let him play the next round. Why?

Because when I handed him the gun, the way he grabbed it was he put his hand on the pistol grip and his finger on the trigger. He said "well I didn't PULL the trigger, I just touched it!" Well, this is an electronic paintball gun, it has a HAIR trigger. I had told him not to even touch the trigger. Kids need to learn one of the 4 rules of shooting, even if it's just paintball they should still be learning good safety habits to carry over into real gun use. This kid plays a lot of airsoft, and he told me he was used to always having his finger on the trigger when holding a gun. BAD BAD BAD habits!

I would much rather take kids shooting real guns first before they start playing paintball. In fact I would rather teach kids about shooting REAL guns before they had any kind of TOY gun, paintball, airsoft, or otherwise. That way, they can learn good habits first, then use those good habits on paintball. Fortunately paintball is dangerous enough that you still have to respect the guns and you can justify being strict about safety rules. With airsoft, there doesn't seem to be any motivation to exercise safety rules. I don't like that. All it does is teach kids not to take guns seriously.

cgjunk2
April 4, 2005, 12:59 AM
Hellbore makes some good points. As a kid, I used to love playing guns. Ironically, as an adult with young kids, I kinda cringed when I saw one of my child's little friends pick up a toy snubby and point it at my child. My first impulse was to yell "watch your muzzle and trigger finger!" :D. Seriously though, I was really surprised by how much my gut was yelling out DANGER.

I guess toy guns are usually sufficiently different in weight and feel to their real counterparts that some serious training with young ones would teach them the proper respect towards the real thing. However, I think that taking an adult who has only handled realistic airsoft and bringing them over the the real gun world would be bit scary. I don't know if I would want that guy shooting IDPA next to me, if you know what I mean. It only takes a momentary lapse in concentration for you to fall back to any poor habits that may have been developed playing with airsoft.

Your paintball points are good ones too. Knowing that a PB gun can really take an eye or testicle out makes you think before you play. There seems to be a complete disregard for that in Airsoft. Interestingly I have a shooting friend who cant stand the idea of paintballing for the very reason that it requires you aim and shoot at another human being. He just can't get over that.


P.S. I noticed that some of these airsoft guns have a orange tip on the muzzle. Being that they are so realistic however, how would an LEO feel if he had one of these tactical type rifles pointed at him/her, even if it had that orange cap. Orange cap or not, I think I would probably be real scared regardless.

Hellbore
April 4, 2005, 01:18 AM
Interestingly I have a shooting friend who cant stand the idea of paintballing for the very reason that it requires you aim and shoot at another human being. He just can't get over that.

Yes, that is a conundrum. I guess it's debatable. At least in paintball, normally (if you are playing with the right people) you are drilled not to EVER point the gun at a person UNLESS they are wearing paintball protective gear and you are actually currently playing a round of paintball. You are never supposed to point them at people off the field. It still is probably debatable whether this could cause bad habits.

Also, I admit not everyone practices safety when paintballing. I do, and when we go I am usually supervising and training these kids as much as I can. Some people don't play safe though, that is why I never play in the woods unless I am able to take a leadership role, or else at a reputable field that enforces the rules with referees and such. I also discourage my friends and family from playing with anyone who doesn't take safety seriously. A lot of yahoos just laugh it off and don't take safety seriously. These guys probably wonder why I never come back after playing with them for the first time.

As for the orange tips... Lots of stupid kids try to remove them or paint them black. My nephew pried the orange cap off his Beretta. I made him glue it back on though... All it took was to tell him about some of the shootings that have been in the news, where kids got shot and killed by cops. Scared him enough to make him put it back on. It makes me wonder, though, why he hadn't heard about this before.

cgjunk2
April 4, 2005, 01:46 AM
At least in paintball, normally (if you are playing with the right people) you are drilled not to EVER point the gun at a person UNLESS they are wearing paintball protective gear and you are actually currently playing a round of paintball. You are never supposed to point them at people off the field. It still is probably debatable whether this could cause bad habits.

I think that in paintball, there is enough ritual related to safety,with well regulated fields at least, that one should be able to effectively seperate firearms and paintball guns in ones mind. I used to play a long time ago, and the field I played with was very professional in pushing safety, every gun was chronoed before a match, plenty of referrees, barrel plug checks, etc. I would imagine results may vary if people are playing on their own and disregarding safety.

However, I have not played paintball since I began shooting, so I may feel a bit weird about it if I went to play now. I'd probably get over it though. I'll just use a nice orange and purple gun with sparkles on it, like they sell at Wal mart :p That should avoid any confusion!

Hellbore
April 4, 2005, 01:51 AM
This is what I shoot:

http://cleedo.com/freestyle5.jpg

Anyone think it looks like a real gun? LOL... Especially when I put the air tank on the back and the hopper on top...

However, a gun like the following is a little more like a real gun, but still... I dunno, even though they tried to make it look real, I wouldn't confuse it so easily. I also wouldn't buy one, though.

http://www.actioncenterpaintball.com/store/images/products/markers/a5.jpg

When it comes to paintball pistols, this is the kind of thing you see:

http://www.shop4paintball.com/ProductImages/01PTENFORCBLUE.jpg

Some paintball guns also have very unusual features and looks to them. Look at this one I used to own:

http://cleedo.com/ztrracer3.jpg

And how about this prototype?

http://cleedo.com/fastingray2.jpg

I will bet no one can guess what I was trying to accomplish with this prototype... lol...

cgjunk2
April 4, 2005, 02:10 AM
Is that a flux capacitor for sending your paintballs back in time (in case you just missed that last shot)? ;)

nico
April 4, 2005, 02:36 AM
hellbore, is that last one an attempt at turning a Brass Eagle into an Autococker? :eek: :scrutiny:

CleverName
April 4, 2005, 04:31 AM
One of the things I noticed when I stopped messing around with airsoft with my friends and transitioned to shooting real guns was the weight. A 1911 is around 2.5 pounds. The most "realistic" manufacturer of airsoft 1911's weigh in at around 1.9 pounds.

And did "you'll shoot your eye out!" ever prevent anybody as a little kid from shooting friends with a Red Ryder?

Harry Tuttle
April 4, 2005, 06:03 PM
heres my new "marker"
http://premium1.uploadit.org/docZox//MKX.jpg

cgjunk2
April 4, 2005, 06:37 PM
And did "you'll shoot your eye out!" ever prevent anybody as a little kid from shooting friends with a Red Ryder?

I guess every person's tolerance for horseplay is different. But remembering back to my middle childhood years, I know one of my friends shot my other friend in the back intentionally while messing around (with some spring powered bb pistol). My (victim) friend wasn't really happy and didn't find it funny. I thought that was pretty stupid to do as well. Especially already knowing back then that even the spring powered bb guns will kill birds and such pretty easily. Even as a kid, I knew better than to be around my trigger happy friend when he had his bb gun.

I don't know if red ryder guns have less power, so maybe its less of a big deal with those, but I still think kids should reminded it is bad form (at the very least) to shoot your friends :what: , even if they won't listen to adults' advice. I know if it was my kid and they didn't listen, I'd break the damn gun in half if they played around with it like that. :p. In my opinion that is not something that we as adults should let slide. Heck, I bet that even red ryders were probably made partly with the intention of being a learning tool as kids get introduced to firearms.

I just had a thought (oh oh, I'm thinking)... But being since that it seems airsofters are into the realism, wouldn't proper handing of the guns just add to the realism during play? Let them watch some video of patrolling troops in Iraq, so they can soak up how our soldiers safely carry their weapons (muzzle down, finger off trigger), even during the heat of fighting, up until the moment they are ready to kill. Proper focus on safe gun handling can only add to the ambiance, I would think.

ScorpioVI
April 4, 2005, 07:10 PM
Well, I'm probably the most experienced airsoft guy here in THR, so I'll speak on airsoft's behalf.

As for my background... I grew up playing airsoft essentially since the late 80s. Like CleverName, I spent a lot of time in Hong Kong and the Philippines where airsoft guns were abundant. My childhood home in the southern Philippines was in front of a police station, I grew up having cops as my babysitters and shooting 1911s and M16s at the range out back was no big deal. Airsoft however was a novelty with which I can shoot my friends with in friendly games. I was hooked from that point.

Moved to Cali in early 90's ("what's airsoft?" played paintball instead), enlisted in the US Army (Infantry) in the mid 90's, served my 4 and got out just in time to see the CA AWB come into effect. "Thanks for serving, and sorry, no AR for you!" Decided to get back into paintball and found my favorite fields overwhelmed with 12-year-old-kids in gucci-flage and $1000 paint hoses and lawyer-daddy's $500/day paint budget. Congratulations, paintball has hit the mainstream. Eff that noise. Stumbled onto the http://www.cimmerians.com website, found out that airsoft finally made it's way to the US, bought my first (of many) guns and got hooked. Created a website, got sponsorship from airsoft retailers, did reviews, played a lot of games, was very involved in the community.

At one point, my airsoft collection looked like this:

http://www.tacticalpursuits.com/images/myguns/010824_myguns_arsenal.jpg

I had probably well over $15,000 invested in airsoft guns, and maybe a third that in gear. I have camouflage BDUs for all ocassions (woodland, choc-chip, tri-color, tiger-stripes, desert tiger-stripes, black, etc.). Blackhawk vests? Check. Eagle assault packs? Check. Tactical Tailor MAV? Check. SOTech thigh rigs? Check. SOE rig? Check. Yea, it's an addiction.

Our airsoft games looked like this:

http://www.tacticalpursuits.com/airsoft/images/010118_airsoft_odtlcm.jpg

http://www.tacticalpursuits.com/airsoft/images/010324_airsoft_desertmilitia.jpg





The funny thing is, I was also buying/shooting real-steel while I was into airsoft. I also have a decent real-steel arsenal, and I shoot a lot more competitions than probably most of you airsoft-bashing posers in this thread. I shoot USPSA, IDPA, CMP, 3-Gun. Actively involved in legislative actions particularly in California, NRA, GOA, CRPA, I put money in it. I'm an IDPA-certified Safety Officer, about to get my NRA RSO rating and I'm a match director for our rifle club's action pistol program.

So, I'm coming from this unique perspective of being active in both airsoft and real-steel. The question isn't "does anyone know the deal with airsoft players?"... the question should be "why doesn't anyone get airsoft?"

Seriously, people like Gabe Suarez (see article (http://www.tactical-airsoft.net/featured_article.htm)), get it. SWAT magazine writers, get it. Shotgun News editors, get it. Tactical Journal contributors, get it. Police departments across the country are putting in orders, airsoft guns for training, are getting it. So why aren't you?

nico
April 4, 2005, 08:48 PM
Scorpio, based on those pics, it looks like it'd be a lot more fun to try airsoft with you and your buddies than the jokers in the pics in the AR15.com thread.

I agree about paintball btw. The first time I played was about 7 years ago when speedball was brand new. I played last fall and was amazed at the 11-12 year old kids running around with $1500 guns, $250 hoppers, and top of the line harnesses, masks, etc.

Like I said before, paintball is fun, and I'd like to try airsoft some time. I just don't know anybody who plays.

Snake Eyes
April 4, 2005, 09:13 PM
Here's the thing that bothers me about airsoft:

A couple of Christmas' ago, my 11 year old half-brother asked if he could shoot me with his airsoft gun. I told him NO. He asked why not?

At that point I lifted my shirt and drew my Yost 1* Colt Compact, dropped the mag and cleared the chamber, laying the gun, the mag and the round on the table.

I explained to my half brother that if I ever saw some one point a gun at me, even an airsoft gun (His looked VERY realistic), I would execute my training by drawing and putting a minimum of 3 rounds of .45 into the aggressor as effectively as my adreneline would allow.

The poor kids eyes got very big, and I must admit he's still scared of me two years later.

The point is, he never considered the consequences of his actions. Never thought about the fact that airsoft guns look like the real deal. Never realized how freaking big the bore of a .45 really is.

This kid could have gotten himself killed playing "games".

(Then I got to expalain to my Dad that, yes I carry a gun, yes, even in his house, and YES, especially in California. His eyes got pretty big too. And, come to think of it, I haven't been invited back!)

SoundWave
April 4, 2005, 09:34 PM
I can't believe the guys over at AR-15.com are the ones bashing airsoft! These are the same guys who put thousands of dollars worth of do-dads on their EBR's!

Now they're complaining that people want to drop a ton of dough on FAKE EBR'S? :neener:

nico
April 4, 2005, 09:49 PM
Soundwave, don't be stupid. 6 rails on the forend and a forward grip that never gets used are awesome when they're on a real gun, but they're just stupid on fake ones :neener:

Hellbore
April 4, 2005, 10:07 PM
Scorpio, your whole post talked about how experienced you are and how you're not a "poser" (thanks for calling us posers btw, name-calling helps a lot :rolleyes: ).

The problem is, everyone isn't you. I am upset about how cavalier kids are with these airsoft guns, and how they are likely to get themselves shot (it has happened already). This is a real problem, and it has nothing to do with you personally. Just because you aren't part of the problem, doesn't mean it's not a problem.

I think this thread struck a nerve with you, you felt personally attacked because people were talking negatively about airsoft owners. I, for one, was not talking about guys like you, but rather, the kind of airsoft players who disregard safety and use their guns in public.

Also, you didn't say anything about whether you think the realistic nature and lack of any real danger involved in using airsoft guns is likely to teach unsafe handling habits that might instinctively carry over into real firearm use. You talked about police training with airsoft guns, but when they train, they treat the gun as if it was real, using the same safety precautions they would use with a real gun. I don't think your average airsoft player does this. The whole point of cops using airsoft guns is so that their practice will carry over into real firearm use. That's why they are going to practice correct principles. So, if you are practicing incorrect principles with airsoft guns, it stands to reason that these would carry over into real firearm use.

By the way I know some cops locally who train with paintball guns. I'm not saying that to make a point, just mentioning it as interesting.

Hellbore
April 4, 2005, 10:23 PM
Oh snap... Did you see this thread?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=133245

An Airsoft player maybe? :D

Though I suspect that guy would have found a way to get himself killed even if all he ever played was pocket pool...

S3Project
April 4, 2005, 11:13 PM
Hellbore, I think you're underestimating how just careful most airsofters are.

Sure, there are some idiot kids running around in the streets with springers getting themselves into trouble...but that's the detested minority. Most airsofters are pretty respectable in terms of safety, and if not, they'll be told to shape up by the rest of us.

Likewise, there are lots of idiots running around with real guns, and with paintball guns, both of which probably pose a greater safety threat than plastic-spewing airsoft guns. Heck, I've seen videos of people with paintball guns going around and shooting random people. That's pretty dangerous.

So, I don't think you're being very fair. Maybe you should head over to Airsoftplayers.com sometime. Airsoft is great for fun, and as a training tool. It can be a great way to introduce people to the basic function of firearms without having to worry about them killing themselves!

I'm getting the idea you have the wrong idea about airsoft...

- Derek

Brick
April 4, 2005, 11:24 PM
Hello everyone.™

I don't know what the bashing of airsoft here is all about, but I get the hint it's about bad gun handling and lack of proper instruction :neener:

Hey. The real-steel users have their share of bad apples too.

Besides, how do you ever think you're gonna get that P90 you want to get for like 1/5 of the real price?

Each to his own, I guess...

cgjunk2
April 4, 2005, 11:44 PM
But being since that it seems airsofters are into the realism, wouldn't proper handing of the guns just add to the realism during play? Let them watch some video of patrolling troops in Iraq, so they can soak up how our soldiers safely carry their weapons (muzzle down, finger off trigger), even during the heat of fighting, up until the moment they are ready to kill. Proper focus on safe gun handling can only add to the ambiance, I would think.

Reading my previous comments, it seems like my language was a bit generalized towards all airsofters. That wasn't my intent. It is of course very difficult to characterize any group, be it gun owners, airsofters or whatever. So I am sure there are people that treat airsoft with as a real life simulation, and I am sure there are others who have never touched a firearm, don't plan to, and treat Airsoft as a purely recreational and fun. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with either approach, as long as any non-chalantness on the AS field doesn't transfer over into public life. Being since it seems young kids are involved in this, I would imagine there is a real potential for problems.

I am sure that people like Scorpio are not part of the problem. In fact somebody involved in so many firearm activities is probably in a great position to spread the word on safety in any sort of sim game such as PB or AS.

Scorpio, in your experience, what kind of airsoft organizations are out there? What is their stance on how AS guns should be treated regarding safe handling practices? Is there a fair amount of self-regulation in the groups, or is the image on that AR forum pretty typical (I doubt it, I hope). A well regulated sport will fare better I'm sure in the long run. I can see trouble though if Airsoft is not well organized as a whole. It only takes a few bad stories in the papers for people to start passing laws against airsoft (or anything else).

Here is what I think my opinion comes down to. Real firearms are readily and abundantly available in this country. This may not be the case in other countries where airsoft is big, so the chance for an adolescent or child to get a hold of real firearm is probably close to nil. Here in the US, that is not the case. I worry that young (impulsive) adolescents who have no firearm experience and are avid airsofters may do stupid things with either their AS guns that can get someone hurt, or have an increased probability of having an accident whenever they are involved with firearms. I don't have any hard data to support my concerns, but my gut tells me that firearm safety should be pushed big time whenever we handle the real thing, or even a simulation of it. Real guns are a part of this culture, we should take every opportunity to reinforce to our young ones the importance of safe gun handling.

ScorpioVI
April 4, 2005, 11:56 PM
Scorpio, based on those pics, it looks like it'd be a lot more fun to try airsoft with you and your buddies than the jokers in the pics in the AR15.com thread.

The pictures posted in that thread are some of the worst examples of airsoft players and are in no way representative of the majority of airsofters. You could do the same thing with any segment of the population, any hobby, any vocation, and make the lot look like a bunch of tools. Thankfully most of us are able to discern for ourselves the truth.




The point is, he never considered the consequences of his actions. Never thought about the fact that airsoft guns look like the real deal. Never realized how freaking big the bore of a .45 really is.

This kid could have gotten himself killed playing "games".

The kid is 11 years old dude. What do you expect? His failure to realize the consequences of his actions can't be blamed on an inanimate object. Tell me, how is an airsoft gun responsible for your little brother's actions? Did the airsoft gun jump up into his hands, and started whispering things into his ear like "shoot that unsuspecting person"?

No, there's a failure in behavioral supervision somewhere along the line. Somehow that kid got the money to buy that airsoft gun. Somehow he's not afraid to brandish it in the open. And up until your encounter, somehow nobody pointed out to him how that was wrong. Now, a smart man would not need to be told who is to blame here, but an inanimate object it ain't.



The problem is, everyone isn't you. I am upset about how cavalier kids are with these airsoft guns, and how they are likely to get themselves shot (it has happened already). This is a real problem, and it has nothing to do with you personally. Just because you aren't part of the problem, doesn't mean it's not a problem.

I do realize it's a problem. And we're doing something about it. AirsoftSafety.org (http://www.airsoftsafety.org) is in the works (I'm in the council BTW) and this is an issue I've addressed time and time again in various airsoft boards. But it's one thing to bitch about "airsoft posers" on boards like these and it's a whole another thing to get involved and DO SOMETHING about it.

Your nephew brandishing about an airsoft gun again is a failure in behavioral supervision. See my post above. Remember those kids back in mid-90s who drove around shooting paintball guns at unsuspecting pedestrians? Did we blame paintball guns for those kids' actions? It's funny how we as gun-owners harp on all the time about "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and we flame the ???? out of hoplophobes for wanting to blame guns for society's ills. And here we are doing the same damn thing to airsoft guns. It's ridiculous, you're smarter than that.



Also, you didn't say anything about whether you think the realistic nature and lack of any real danger involved in using airsoft guns is likely to teach unsafe handling habits that might instinctively carry over into real firearm use.

I treat my airsoft guns as I do my real-steel. With no exception. Look at the picture of my crew in desert camo above (that's me, bottom left BTW) and look at their trigger-fingers. :what: Shocking. I don't see a single TF violation in there. I've made enemies on the field for pointing out trigger-finger and muzzle-safety violations.



You talked about police training with airsoft guns, but when they train, they treat the gun as if it was real, using the same safety precautions they would use with a real gun. I don't think your average airsoft player does this.

No, your average airsoft player definitely does not, and I'm working on that. Again, I don't see this as an "airsoft thing". Pick any popular TV crime show or any action movie and I'll show you mediocre and idiotic gun-handling skills. If the majority of our population gain knowledge from such media, what then do you expect to see on the street?

A good part of the problem can be blamed on ignorance, another is apathy. A lot of airsofters don't have real-steel, and frankly some could give less of a ???? about it. They're not concerned about safety and realistic gun-handling because ????, what's the worse that can happen? Somebody loses an eye? The only people that care are people like me, and there's just not enough of us to go around.

ScorpioVI
April 5, 2005, 12:18 AM
Scorpio, in your experience, what kind of airsoft organizations are out there? What is their stance on how AS guns should be treated regarding safe handling practices? Is there a fair amount of self-regulation in the groups, or is the image on that AR forum pretty typical (I doubt it, I hope). A well regulated sport will fare better I'm sure in the long run. I can see trouble though if Airsoft is not well organized as a whole. It only takes a few bad stories in the papers for people to start passing laws against airsoft (or anything else).




Therein lies the problem. Airsoft is a fledgeling sport in the US and it has only been around for a few years, and it didn't really start booming until 2000 or so. As such, it doesn't have a governing body or an organizational structure like paintball. What you have are a bunch of "old guard" types like me with our fingers plugging the proverbial dam leak and we ain't doing too good of a job with it.

Airsoft games throughout the US are hosted primarily by regional-based teams, since commercial fields are few and far-between. And the quality of these teams are as varied as the population of th US. You've got really squared-away teams like the Cimmerians (http://www.cimmerians.com) and BAASH (http://www.baash.com) (featured in G4 and History Channel) and then you got the ones whose pictures got posted on AR15.com So you could end up with a team like mine whose members comprise of military veterans whose gun-handling kills outshines the local SWAT team or you could end up with a team whose leader is a 16-year-old kid who got his firearms training from the Matrix and CounterStrike.

Part of the problem is that the US airsoft community has a tendency to shun minors and kids. Retailers do not sell to minors without parental consent and teams don't usually allow minors to play for fear of lawsuits. Kids being kids of course will always find a way, and there's plenty of shady airsoft booths at gun-shows who care more about profits than the age of the buyers. Since fields aren't available to these kids, they shoot at each other on the street or at the neighborhood park, which is how tragic circumstances begin.

If it was up to me I would put every airsoft player through an NRA-sanctioned safety program. "Basic Airsoft Safety" or whatever we'd call it. Have airsoft arenas like we have skate parks where these kids can play safely. But as my old 1st Sgt used to say, "crap on one hand, wish on the other, see what fills up faster".





Real guns are a part of this culture, we should take every opportunity to reinforce to our young ones the importance of safe gun handling.

I agree completely. Instead of scaring the bejezus out of our little brothers and nephews with our bad-to-the-bone 1* 1911s, maybe we should take them and their friends out on a day-trip to the range instead. If we grabbed all those kids we made fun of at the AR15 thread, taught them proper gun-handling skills, let them pop off a few rounds out of our fearsome EBRs, we'd have a couple hundred converts on our sides and possible future allies in the fight for 2A rights. Instead we pissed off a good segment of the airsofting population and alienated would-be gun-owners. We PWN3D ourselves, and we're proud of it.

:(

cgjunk2
April 5, 2005, 12:49 AM
Airsoft is a fledgeling sport in the US and it has only been around for a few years, and it didn't really start booming until 2000 or so. As such, it doesn't have a governing body or an organizational structure like paintball. What you have are a bunch of "old guard" types like me with our fingers plugging the proverbial dam leak and we ain't doing too good of a job with it.

Well I'm sure that paintball started out in a similar situation. It was probably the dedication of those who loved the sport and were willing to lead that has brought it more into the mainstream. Is there by chance any interaction between paintball organizations and airsoft groups? I haven't been in a paintball store lately so I don't know if there is much interaction between the two sports (for example, I don't know if these things are sold side by side with paintball guns). But it seems like perhaps there would be a good opportunity to team up with some paintball groups, both to share or rent their facilities, and also to perhaps to help in organizing the AS community more. Although in the end it might be easier to go your own way, since I don't know if paintballers would view the airsofters as competition. But it might be worth looking into.

Part of the problem is that the US airsoft community has a tendency to shun minors and kids. Retailers do not sell to minors without parental consent and teams don't usually allow minors to play for fear of lawsuits.

Yeah, that's a tough one. I can see the fear of getting sued. I can even see the fear perhaps in adults being hesitant to allow young ones to play with them for fear of being labelled bad influences, especially since guns are not a popular subject among many mainstream folk. There probably has to be a middle ground here as to an age cut off for organized play. Kids gotta know there are some available ways to play airsoft in a safety concious environment.

Hellbore
April 5, 2005, 12:50 AM
Well ScorpioVI kudos for doing your part to make things better. I agree, there are safety problems in a lot of sports, paintball definitely has a lot of players that don't abide by the safety rules. I do my best to educate any players I come in contact with. Sounds like you are doing good things for the sport of Airsoft.

I would kind of like to try airsoft but I have a major beef... How do you keep track of who is hit and who is out of the game, etc? The plastic BB's just bounce off... What if you didn't feel it? In paintball if you didn't feel a ball hit you or you are trying to cheat, the other player can have a ref check you for paint real quick, without interrupting the game too much. How do you handle such disputes in airsoft? Also often times someone is hit several times and calls themself out just to avoid any more pain.

I have seen that there are tiny paint pellets for airsoft guns, but I heard they can jam and be unreliable in some guns, causing more problems than good. I also heard they make such a small mark you can't really see it, or sometimes they make no mark at all.

Have there been any developments in this area recently? Doesn't this become a problem, especially in large-scale scenario games?

ScorpioVI
April 5, 2005, 01:37 AM
Is there by chance any interaction between paintball organizations and airsoft groups? I haven't been in a paintball store lately so I don't know if there is much interaction between the two sports (for example, I don't know if these things are sold side by side with paintball guns). But it seems like perhaps there would be a good opportunity to team up with some paintball groups, both to share or rent their facilities, and also to perhaps to help in organizing the AS community more. Although in the end it might be easier to go your own way, since I don't know if paintballers would view the airsofters as competition. But it might be worth looking into.



There is some cross-pollination between airsoft and paintball. A lot of players cross-over, or do both. It's all a matter of preference as far as I'm concerned. I don't think the two will ever marry though, airsofters like the MilSim aspect and paintballers don't want be considered remotely militant. Airsofters don't like to get paint on their nice BDUs and paintballers don't like to slip on BBs. Stores like http://www.iisports.com sell both paintball and airsoft.




I would kind of like to try airsoft but I have a major beef... How do you keep track of who is hit and who is out of the game, etc? The plastic BB's just bounce off... What if you didn't feel it? In paintball if you didn't feel a ball hit you or you are trying to cheat, the other player can have a ref check you for paint real quick, without interrupting the game too much. How do you handle such disputes in airsoft? Also often times someone is hit several times and calls themself out just to avoid any more pain.


You know, I was watching an ESPN-televised NPPA championship game back in 1999 or 2000 maybe. One of the players was caught on tape wiping paint off. Now, if a player has the audacity to do that sort of thing on a televised game, you gotta wonder how he conducts himself in a non-televised game. I've played paintball, you've played paintball, you and I both know that simply because a player is hit with paint that it's no guarantee he won't cheat.

In airsoft, we try very hard to cultivate an atmosphere of trustworthiness and honesty. Yes, we do rely on the honor system. You take a hit, you walk yourself off the field. Believe it or not, it works. Rarely do we ever catch a person cheating. I've only ever called two people on it, in the 6 years I've been playing airsoft in the US.

Why does it work?

1) Exclusivity. Teams like the ones I play with actually screen their players before the game. Members or "players in good standing" sign-up to a game online, and are sent instructions to the field 2-3 days prior to a game. Sort of like operational security. "Players of unknown standing" are assigned to a mentor and are watched closely for their first few games. It's like the internet, you can liken an airsoft game to the internet. An anonymous player can walk in, cheat, do some damage and never come back. We take all the anonymity out of the equation. If a player is a known cheat, we have his name, his address, his phone number, and he gets black-listed, which leads me to point #2...

2) Rarity. There may be a dozen paintball fields in a given metropolitan area. But there may only be one commercial airsoft field. A lot of games are hosted by teams on their own private fields, teams tend to inter-communicate and the heads tend to talk to each other. Once a player is black-listed by one team, usually another team will know about it and will black-list that player as well. So what you end up with is a player all decked out to go to war, and no war to fight. Nothing persuades a player to play straight than the threat of never-ever playing airsoft again.

3) Respawn. You guys ever play first-person-shooter, deathmatch games on your PC? You die, get transported somewhere else on the map, wait a certain amount of time, and play again? Well, most airsoft games have respawn rules. This does two things. One is that it simulates a larger force. Fighting 10 players respawning every 5 minutes is like fighting 100 players. The other benefit is that it makes "dying" not a big-deal. You get shot, walk back 100 yards to your designated respawn point, wait 5-10 minutes, go back into the fight. At most, you lose some ground, or a really freaking good fighting position, but you're still in the game (which could last a few hours). You're not done for the day once you get shot. Hell, there's been times in the past where I'm thankful I got shot just so I can go back, have a sip of water, catch my breath and take a break.

4) "Benefit of the doubt." I've had a lot of incidents in the past where I'm thinking, "the guy was like 100 feet away, right in the open, no freaking way I missed him with that burst". But hey, that's airsoft, you give the other player the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he didn't feel it, or hear it, or you missed him altogether, but since we're all honorably trustworthy players on the field you give that other player the benefit of the doubt. The player is not a cheater until you've given him the benefit of the doubt a dozen times and by a dozen different players.

5) No prizes. At the end of the day, the only thing you walk away with is tired feet, an empty camelbak, and your pride. Win or lose, there is pride to be had in playing an honorable game. And that's our sell. We don't need paint to keep people honest, we hold them accountable in an age-old Samurai code. "Death before dishonor" and all that jazz.

And it works. It really does. I've had games with as few as a dozen guys and I've had games with 150 players on EACH side. The few times that it doesn't, we deal with the offender harshly. Our society could learn a lot from how we play airsoft. The key word is accountability.

cgjunk2
April 5, 2005, 01:46 AM
Scorpio, off topic here... but does that grenade launchers do anything on your M-16? I've seen pictures of airsoft hand grenades, do you use those in your games?

Kevlarman
April 5, 2005, 02:05 AM
Oh, I yearn for the days in highschool when I had unlimited time to play airsoft. It's been maybe 3-4 years since I've actually been in a skirmish. :(

I too got my first fill of airsoft while I was living in the Philippines. 'Course back then most guns were pretty hefty and had to be connected to an external tank and used a gas called FLON.

Fast forward to about '97 and I find out that I can get airsoft guns in the US! All right!! I was already pretty big into military history, and had gone shooting with friends and relatives many, many times. I knew the difference between real guns and toys. I knew to keep my finger out of the trigger guard and to watch where I pointed the muzzle. And most importantly, I knew NOT to the these realistic replicas outside where someone might call the police and get real guns pointed at us.

I was active in the online message boards like X-Ring or airsoftguns.com. I taught new users to handle airosfts safely. I spread my pro-2nd amendment to people who saw airsoft only as a game. I used it as a tool to enhance my real steel training.

Sadly, it seems the influx of minors using airsoft has grown, and a lot of them do not have the discipline to play safely. It takes responsible people to teach responsible actions. So long as we have those gunshow booths or shady corner stores selling cheap $20 springers to every kid who comes in, it's going to tarnish the sport.

ScorpioVI
April 5, 2005, 02:20 AM
Scorpio, off topic here... but does that grenade launchers do anything on your M-16?



They're either shooting BBs (like a beehive round) or just a clever way to hide the battery.

The "M203 round" looks like this:

http://www.softair.arcoefrecce.it/fotosoft/11850s.jpg

It's really just an insert, it doesn't actually launch. It does have a pressurized gas chamber that's activated by the 203 plunger that launches anywhere up to 60 to 120BBs at a time. Not all that fun when you're on the receiving end.

thorn726
April 5, 2005, 02:44 AM
wHoa! i had been wondering about those grenade launchers .

i just like that i can do some remote form of target practice in my apt with my cheapo airsoft.

cgjunk2
April 5, 2005, 03:02 AM
I taught new users to handle airosfts safely. I spread my pro-2nd amendment to people who saw airsoft only as a game. I used it as a tool to enhance my real steel training.

Sadly, it seems the influx of minors using airsoft has grown, and a lot of them do not have the discipline to play safely.

Don't give up hope. The most efficient way for humans to learn is to be taught by those who know. And everytime we pass up a "teachable moment" with anyone that doesn't know about something they should know, we become increasingly responsible for the state of things. So don't stop teaching! :)

In life, the teaching of things that need to be taught and learning the things that need to be learned never really ends anyway. Weather it be muzzle awareness, responsibility towards others, self discipline, or what have you. The fact that sometimes we see so many things in life that seem to be going down hill is probably proof that people are giving up on teaching the next generation. Sometimes people think that our young ones should know certain things, but in reality most of these things should be being taught in one way or another (by example is probably best way to teach, but the hardest to do sometimes). It seems like you and Scorpio are both on the teaching end but seem a bit overwhelmed. Don't give up, find every opportunity to teach, and hopefully others will learn to teach by watching you guys do it. The kind of sway that an adult has on younger person that is interested in the same thing would be substantial I would imagine. Kids find it pretty neat for the most part that someone is interested enough to take the time out to help them out.

I was looking at some of the sites on Airsoft teams that Scorpio provided. That kinda stuff sells itself. If a young kid sees that, it won't take much to have them fall in line once they start playing with responsible players. Airsoft seems relatively new, its just a matter of keeping the exposure up so people become more aware of it, kinda like this thread has done for me. If you guys like the sport, I don't think the effort you put into developing it will go to waste. This seems like a really fun sport.

teq
April 6, 2005, 02:17 AM
I played airsoft for around two years and started up a small team. Basically what we did was study real tactics and movements that real military organizations used. We'd come up with scenarios to play to test out what we had learned. They were fun exercises to test ourselves. For me it gave me a glimpse of what it must be like. Granted, unless you are in a real combat situation, there is no real way to fathom it. Though, humping gear i nthe woods in august in full Vietnam gear gave me a greater respect for the men and women that serve in the military. I personally used airsoft, not only as a fun way to see military manouvers in action, but also as a way to study history in a hands on way. For me half the fun was piecing together period correct impressions of wartime eras. Doing the nessecary research for a Vietnam and WW2 impression was some of the most fun I've had with military history. Plus there is something about walking out onto the field in full ww2 gear while everyone else is in woodland BDUs with a generic tac vest. :)

As time passed and my real arsenal incresed, I've kinda lost intrest in airsoft. I'll get together with friends and see what I remember. The most important thing when dealing with airsoft is to know where you are. My team and I never brandished our "guns" in public and always broght them out in designated areas. It's the 13 year olds, that wave them around in suburbs that, give airsoft a bad name. Go check uout www.airsoftplayers.com for any info you want on it. I found the forum there an invaluable wealth of information for those serious or curious about the sport.

Here are a few pics of the impressions. They are action shots so don't blast me for my finger being on the trigger :D

http://libra.lunarpages.com/~teammo2/namgas.jpg
http://libra.lunarpages.com/~teammo2/nam.jpg
http://www.teammothball.com/ww2back.jpg

The sling for the thompson isn't correct, but that's about it.

MICHAEL T
April 6, 2005, 01:41 PM
Real men have BB gun fights in shorts and t-shirt not wimp air soft.

wmenorr67
April 6, 2005, 02:04 PM
There is a movie prop builder that has an airsoft vulcan mini-gun and the prices are up in the $3000 range. I will look and see if I can find a website to post.
Found one website. Love to have this thing. http://www.pipersprecisionproducts.com/

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