Do you think I had whiner's rights?


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280PLUS
April 2, 2005, 06:57 PM
Today I shot a 900 match at a range that I don't normally shoot at. During the entire time my next door neighbor's brass (.22LR) was flying over the wall and pelting me. During slow fire I had to time my shots between his so that I wouldn't catch a piece of his brass as I was taking MY shot. During timed and rapid it was like a deluge of brass came my way every string. One actually landed in the crook of my shootin' arm and stayed there. :scrutiny: I don't blame the other shooter, I blame the design of the ports. Needless to say, my scores weren't quite up to my usual. OK, they were pretty bad. I'm not saying this was the only reason I shot like a dog today but I know it didn't help!

Is this considered to be part of the game or did I have a legitimate reason to gripe? Should I have brought it up with the range officer as soon as it became a problem? I just steamed and shot. I didn't want to come off as a whiner.

Again, we weren't plinking, this was a fairly serious interleague match.

I shot first, so I can't wait to hear the consensus of those who shot later as to whether this was a problem for them too. Having shot informally at this range in the past I was aware of this problem. Believe me, .45 ACP shells hurt a bit more when they bounce off yer noggin' than them puny .22s.
I can't believe nothing has been done to correct the situation or nobody else is aware of it, it has existed for a while.

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Bear Gulch
April 2, 2005, 07:33 PM
I wouldn't whine. But you might want to get involved with the range and offer supportive advice.

280PLUS
April 2, 2005, 07:54 PM
But it's a bit far for me. It IS for sale though,,,

Overall a pretty nice place too, except for the aforementioned flaw.

:)

Chris Rhines
April 2, 2005, 08:02 PM
Part of the game. It is perfectly legal to attach a screen to your shooting box to deflect incoming brass - you see this at Perry sometimes.

- Chris

280PLUS
April 2, 2005, 08:06 PM
Next time I'm bringing an umbrella...

:D

Bear Gulch
April 2, 2005, 08:07 PM
That is why I like the farthest left position on the range. Try it on the M16 Qual range in the military. 5.56 Cases get quite hot and when they land on you neck while shooting prone it isn't fun.

Standing Wolf
April 2, 2005, 09:03 PM
I can't believe nothing has been done to correct the situation or nobody else is aware of it, it has existed for a while.

The problem has been around as long as semi-automatic pistols. I know several shooters who attach wire mesh screens to the left sides of their pistol boxes, some small, some not so small.

I moved a few tables down at an outdoor range today to get away from flying brass and noise from someone's semi-automatic pistol, only to find myself next to a fellow with a Smith & Wesson 500. It definitely interfered with my concentration. Definitely a livelier gun than I'd care to shoot!

Rabid Rabbit
April 2, 2005, 10:54 PM
No you can't whine about it. But you can use it as a learning experience and plan ahead. Change your position, build a screen try to get a position next to a post etc...I've been in the same situation with rifles where the guy with the martini <sp> from 6 points up range was nailing me in the head in prone. I just moved my gear 1 ft and end of problem.

280PLUS
April 2, 2005, 11:03 PM
Definitely a learning experience. Turns out we won the match by 40 points even with my crappy score. I mentioned this to my team cap'n cause we happened to be emailing back and forth and he also tells me about screen material and spring clamps. So it would appear I done got smarterer today...

:D

entropy
April 3, 2005, 06:01 AM
No, you don't. Try shooting on the right hand side of someone shoooting an M60 or M249 sometime. Then you can whine. ;)

280PLUS
April 3, 2005, 08:37 AM
Just for FYI. This was an indoor range with walls between the ports. Now I've shot at quite a few indoor ranges in my day and this is the first and only one I've shot at that allowed the brass from another shooter to literally pour over th3e top of the wall into my space. During timed and rapid I had 2 or 3 shells bouncing around my port all at the same time. It just don't seem right is all. Not when, in the past, I've had guys whine at ME for uttering an expletive (not loudly) to myself after a bad shot. I was "disturbing" the other shooters. I have since learned not to do that. Exactly how I'm going to build this little shelter should I shoot this range again is beyond me at this point. It involves a bit more than just clamping a screen to my gunbox. Live and learn though. I'll figure it out.

:D

17RemFan
April 3, 2005, 09:10 AM
AN :) Y day at the range is a good day

280PLUS
April 3, 2005, 09:23 AM
I coulda been working... :eek:

:D

45Badger
April 3, 2005, 09:28 AM
I'll call the Whaaaaaaambulance! for you :D

Better than work, better doing the kid shuttle and grocery shopping, better than waiting for the damned rain to end!

OTOH, hot brass on the collar bone can hurt! :eek:

AK103K
April 3, 2005, 09:34 AM
so what your saying is, you cant shoot under pressure with distractions. :neener:

rust collector
April 3, 2005, 10:38 AM
Whining doesn't help, but the lesson in this may be

a. Make sure your gun isn't doing the same thing to the shooter on your right, and

b. A bit of felt and some gaffer tape, tacks or clothespins might have helped to cover the port or you to let you concentrate.

This may fall under the heading of blue moon shooting lore, I dunno. I view the brass trajectory like I view my boat wake--I made it and I'm responsible for it. I like to police my brass anyway, so have been known to fiddle with my ejector to tone it down in some instances.

280PLUS
April 3, 2005, 11:00 AM
Masking tape and cardboard were my thoughts.

5 minute prep time too, not to beat the dead horse.

"so what your saying is, you cant shoot under pressure with distractions"

Apparently not yesterday...

:p

Remember though, if you've shot a few hundred matches and never had this problem before you can get pretty riled up when it does happen.

Chances are I won't even shoot at this range for the next year. This was a yearly "Allstar" event which is why I was taking it pretty seriously. I'll know better next time. I wasn't looking to break any records, but coming somewhere close to my average would have been nice...

:rolleyes:

Thanx for listening and all the input though, it's been helpful.

I feel much better now... ;)

anapex
April 3, 2005, 01:21 PM
There was just a similar thread on the shotgun forum that is somewhat related to this. For me it personally falls under the "it's part of the game" deal but it's nice to see how the different groups feel. Here's the recent thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=131334&page=1&pp=25&highlight=semi+trap

Most of the responses deal with the OFFENDER modifying his gun in someway.

Owen
April 3, 2005, 06:24 PM
It's part of the game. I have never shot with barriers between shooters outdoors; indoors the barriers are a convenience.

When you build your brass barrier, keep in mind that there are restrictions in the rules about size and material (it has to be see through for instance).

Were you shooting at MSI? I seem to recall having that problem there.

Owen (waiting on a Hardball Gun)

Bear Gulch
April 3, 2005, 07:28 PM
I never realized that was such a problem.

280PLUS
April 3, 2005, 09:06 PM
"Were you shooting at MSI?"

You're from Manchester area?

It wasn't MSI, I rarely have brass coming over the barriers there.

It was E&B Sporting Goods in Salem. Theres a gap in the barriers between the ceiling and the top of the barrier. This guys brass was hitting just the right spot to arc right over the top. I'd seen it there before because one of my brothers and I use to shoot there occasionally. All I could do was set myself off to the left in the port so at least it wasn't all coming down on top of me. For instance, today I was at S&W in Springfield and the barriers there go to the ceiling , lo and behold not one speck of anybody else's brass found it's way into my port. E&B is the only indoor range I know of around here that this happens. Of course all the others are "homemade" and E&B's are store bought prefab barriers. i'm a little surprised that with all the owner's concern for safety he's never addressed the problem. I can't believe he's not aware of it. I can't wait for him to see me taping cardboard all over the top of his barrier nexttime I shoot there. He's a major hothead so it should be good...

I'm in my 4th year of indoor bullseye competiton and this is the first time I've ever encountered this problem during a match so it caught me a little off guard. Glad I posted on it here though.

Owen
April 3, 2005, 10:31 PM
I used to shoot the monthly 900's at MSI. I grew up in Somers, but lived in Springfield, MA when I was competing.

I now live in SC, a bullseye blackhole.

I mostly shot in the Western Mass League, and the Western Mass Industrial League (where I shot my PR of 287/300).

They will go over the top at S&W also, I had an FAS 602 that was notorious for that.

Is Bill Porter still giving his coaching sessions at S&W Academy?

Owen

The_Antibubba
April 4, 2005, 05:45 AM
Imagine how distracted you'd be if instead of brass, it was lead coming at you.

I know that for some, "one ragged hole" is the ultimate goal, but the idea of all this shooting is to be able to put your shots where you want them, when it counts the most-when your life is threatened.

Take someone with you next time you go to the range, and have them toss empty brass at you as you shoot. Have them yell at you. Get used to distraction.

280PLUS
April 4, 2005, 06:04 AM
New London County Pistol League
Interleague All-Star Match


All-Star Results:
Hartford’s Metropolitan Pistol League Edges Out
New London in First All-Star Bullseye Pistol Match

Salem:-- Connecticut’s top “bullseye” pistol shooting competitors met in Salem, Conn. on a rainy Saturday, April 2, for the state’s first Interleague All-Star Pistol Bullseye Match. The Metropolitan Revolver League of Hartford clinched its victory over the New London County Pistol League in the last match relay of the afternoon.

The 90-shot, 900-point match was hosted by the New London league and was held at the indoor range and clubroom of E&B Sporting Goods on Route 85 in Salem.

The All-Star match format consisted of 90 shots each for 23 individuals in each league, for a possible best of 900 points per competitor. The aggregates of the top ten scorers in each league -- “the best of the best” -- were calculated to become the team score.

Out of its possible 9000 points, the Met League scored 8562 with 198 “x-ring” hits, and the New London League scored 8493, with 190 x-ring hits. The small, quarter-sized x-ring is centered in the target’s ten-point scoring-ring and is used to break ties. The 90-shot match format is essentially a combination of three, 30-shot matches, each of which has a maximum score of 300 points.

In fact, the best individual shooters for the Met League tied for the day’s high score: Larry Clark of the Windsor Rifle and Pistol Club, based in Manchester, was the high scorer for the match. He posted 872 with 27 x-counts, while Paul Valintakonis, also of the Windsor club, scored 872 but had 19 x-ring shots. For each, the score translates into three conventional matches with scores of over 290: this scoring level is considered a major achievement in match conditions.

The top two competitors in the New London League were Steve Wheeler, of the E&B Sporting Goods Pistol Team, with an 870-24x, and Mike Dane, also of E&B, with an 867-24x. Dane, of Canterbury, has been the Connecticut State Outdoor Pistol Champion, as well as the Connecticut State Air Pistol Champion.

--more--


All-Star Match 2005 --2--

The Met League held a small advantage through most of the day, sustained by their general excellence in the slow-fire stages of the matches, but Valintakonis came through with his exceptional score to put the Hartford-area league firmly on top.

Eleven perfect, 100-point, targets were turned in during the match.

“This All-Star match was developed over the past two years,” recalls Wheeler, who was the match organizer for New London league. A Hebron resident, he’s also competed in the Met league for the Telephone team during the winter match season.

“We had some great shooting and camaraderie, and we’re definitely looking forward to next year, when we’ll be joined by bullseye leagues from New Haven and Fairfield Counties at the Metropolitan Shooters, Inc. target range in Manchester.”

Speaking for the more than a dozen volunteers who administered the match, Duane Stacey of Terryville, a target-scorer representing the Met league, noted that “This has been a real workout.”

“We knew the match was going to be close,” she said, “and we had to be more precise than a typical league match. If there was any question on target scoring or shot placement, we had up to seven people and a referee review the targets with backlights and magnifiers to be sure that they were correctly rated.”

Background: The Match Format

The 90-shot “Indoor 900” Course of Fire is based on an aggregate of three, 30-shot National Match Indoor Gallery Courses (NMC). A single NMC match of 30 shots totals a possible of 300 points fired in slow, timed, and rapid fire stages.
The match is fired at 50 feet using .22 caliber target pistols and standardized “bullseye” targets, whose center “ten-ring” is about the size of a 25-cent piece (for slow-fire sequences), and a silver dollar (for timed- and rapid-fire sequences).

A maximum of 900 points is possible for each all-star competitor, though perfect scores are very rarely achieved. The maximum all-star team score is 9000 points.

The New London League

The ten-team New London County Pistol League was established in 1954. Most league teams have 15-20 shooters who compete weekday evenings during the late fall and winter. Several of the clubs had long been in existence when the league took shape in the early 1950’s, and the bullseye-match format itself is an American refinement of centuries-old competitions conducted worldwide by civilian-sportsmen, police, and military organizations. The teams and clubs welcome interested people from all walks of life.
--more--


All-Star Match 2005 --3--

The New London County League teams are:
E&B Sporting Goods (Salem area)
Electric Boat Athletic Club (based at Groton Sportsmen's Club in Stonington)
Mystic Rod & Gun Club (Stonington)
Niantic Sportsmen’s Club (Niantic/East Lyme)
Nutmegs Pistol Club (based at Quaker Hill)
Pachaug Outdoor Club (Pachaug area)
Pfizer Pistol Team (based at Mystic R&G)
Quaker Hill Rod & Gun Club (Quaker Hill/Montville)
Sprague Rod and Gun Club (Sprague area)
U.S. Coast Guard Pistol Club (staff, faculty, and cadets)

The Met League

The Metropolitan Revolver League of Hartford was established in 1938 and now has 13 teams or clubs reprsenting some 280 shooters. The teams are:
Charter Oak
Colt’s
Tolland County
Windsor
Manchester
Telephone
Bell City
Silver City
Eddy Glover
Torrington
Metacon
Middletown
Capital City

Six of the teams run the Metropolitan Shooters, Inc. range in Manchester, which, in addition to hosting many Metropolitan League matches, also holds a variety of competitions and classes including 900’s, 1800’s, air-pistol matches, state matches, pistol-permit courses, the Loomis Chafee (high school) Rifle Team, and the Pratt & Whitney summer pistol league.

Target Pistols

Specialized, .22 caliber match firearms by Ruger, High Standard, Smith & Wesson, Pardini, and Browning are typical pistols used for bullseye competition both indoors and outdoors. They are often customized for their owners with special grips and sights, and precision trigger pulls. Olympic-grade arms by Pardini, Hammerli, and Walther are frequently encountered.

Experienced bullseye shooters often use optical or red-dot sights that replace the adjustable, open sights that come with a fine target firearm. Nonetheless, indoor target shooting does not demand extremes in equipment; skill is more important than hardware.

(They failed to mention Clark is Current and former state indoor champ and Paul Val is a former indoor state champ.)

280PLUS
April 4, 2005, 06:18 AM
Owen,

I'm not sure about Bill, though I have heard the name before. We went there so my wife could compare a steel .38 J frame against the Airweight. These guys bent over backwards for us. They let us have both .38s for one fee ($25) and while we were shooting brought a third J frame in .22 Magnum out to us for her to try. She thought the Airweight recoil was not a problem BTW and he had given her what he called "medium" loads. I kinda liked that .22 mag myself. :rolleyes: :p

Anti-Bubba,
Interesting idea, we could call it "Extreme Bullseye"
I think we'd have to add flashing lights and loud music though...

:D

FYI-I dropped about 40 points off of my 900 average that day. Hence my frustration...

There was a silver lining though. I still managed to outshoot my neighbor :neener:

Funny, he really messed me up when he popped one off into the ceilingjust before the buzzer. That's when things really got ugly for me. I actually put one off myself, it was on the paper but not in the scroing rings. :what: :eek: :barf:

jefnvk
April 4, 2005, 08:49 AM
Now I've shot at quite a few indoor ranges in my day and this is the first and only one I've shot at that allowed the brass from another shooter to literally pour over th3e top of the wall into my space.

Just this morning, the guy next to me shot an empty over the divider, and it landed down my shirt. I was commended on my ability to safety and set down a pistol safely, while jumping around trying to get the thing out of there.

I don't know how the matches are setup, but I probably would have asked someone to tape up some paper at the top, or moved to a different box.

Then again, one day a guy was pelting me from rapid firing his AR and AK clones, but as soon as the .44 came out, he gladly moved over a lane :D

WayneConrad
April 4, 2005, 09:11 AM
I've only been shooting for a year or so. I had a terrible habit with flinching (I'd jump in the air when my pistol fired), and big guns next to me were incredibly distracting. Brass bouncing off of me just made me crazy.

It was really embarassing to be jumping around all the time!

I set up next to the big guns on purpose to try to innoculate myself to them. Guns that flung brass off of me were a bonus. It took a year, but it seems to be working. This weekend I shot between some big boomers and was able to shoot my little 22 lever gun without flinching. On one shot I did pull it to the right when my neighbor's big rifle went off -- more training needed!

A few weekends back a piece of brass bounced off of my knuckle and left a little smiley-face cut on it, but I was still able to get the shot off. I was pretty proud of that cut -- it means that all the training is finally working.

For me, the noise and brass is just training. Rain is training. Wind is training. Sweat is training (I'm in Phoenix). It's all good stuff that I can use to maybe, with some luck, become a good shooter someday. Or, if not a good shooter, at least one who doesn't mind distractions.

280PLUS
April 4, 2005, 09:21 AM
"as the .44 came out, he gladly moved over a lane"

That's where I screwed up! I should have pulled out the .44...

LMAO

Assigned ports, all full. I thought about asking him to switch but then I figured he'd just make the next guys day miserable.

The only reason the one that landed in the crook of my shootin' arm didn't burn me is because I keep my shirtsleeves long and rolled down.

Remember, I'm not talking about one or two stray shells, I'm talking about pretty near every one of 90 rounds. Easily 75% to 80%. It gets annoying after a while.

The more I think about it, if I was on the ball I would have seen if we could have held the match up for a minute or two to try to make a quick something to stop it from happening. It didn't occur to me at the time.

Still, a bad day of shooting IS better than a good day at work...

;)

280PLUS
April 5, 2005, 06:43 AM
I was at my home range last night (MSI) and watched several different shooters fire several different style bullseye pistols. There was a Hammerli, a S&W 41 and a Ruger. All ejected their spent shells almost horizontally and most of them hit the dividers at about the same height as the level of the pistols, maybe a few inches higher. How is it that the offending neighbor during the match was shooting them in an arc high enough to clear the top of the barrier which is easily 7 ft. tall? Either A. His pistol ejects funny (I didn't see what make it was) or B. He was holding it at an angle with the ejection port at like 1:00. Some guys do. I never got a look at his hold either so I can't be sure.

Thanx again for all the input!

280

:)

WayneConrad
April 5, 2005, 09:20 AM
280plus,

I apologize. I didn't realize the extent that you were getting pelted. I'm sure it would have annoyed me too.

I like to think I would have tried to shoot through it, but that's probably more ego than reality.

cracked butt
April 5, 2005, 10:31 AM
.22 brass? Pshaw. :neener:

Try having 30-06 brass pelting you in the head during a highpower match. I even lost my composure once on the giving end when I ejected the last shell out of my 1903 and grabbed another clip while noticing that my ejected brass had landed on my neighbor's neck and ran down the back of his shooting jacket- I don't know if it was the mental image of it or the squealing I heard that made me blow my next 5 shots :evil:

280PLUS
April 5, 2005, 04:17 PM
At the same range my brother's .45 shells were bouncing directly off my noggin, them suckers hurt pretty good too. :p

No apologies necessary, all in a good days fun...

BTW - I did shoot through it, just not very well. I think the steam coming out of my ears may have fogged up my vision a bit,,,yea, thats it :rolleyes:

:D

280PLUS
April 6, 2005, 07:39 AM
I shot a regular league match last night and got to ask around about this. What I was told was that the Range Officer(s) should have identified and taken steps to alleviate the problem, up to and including disqualifying the other shooter and taking him off the line. :eek:

It was also said that his discharge into the ceiling should have caused his DQ due to unsafe gun practices.

And more silver lining. Even with all my moaning and groaning about this I managed to take 10th place with my National Match Course relay and contribute to the final score. :evil:

;)

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