[Complicated]

No, it's not a "Hate Thread"....just an observation.

A long time ago, the Colt name really used to draw alot of respect. In fact, I'd even say that Colt was the yardstick from which all other 1911's were measured.

If you wanted the best car you brought a Rolls Royce. If you wanted the best of the best in 1911's, you brought a Colt.....Period. There was no other.

My question is, what happened? Not only do people have a distaste for them now, but the majority of people actually seem to genuinly dislike Colt, to the point that they will insult this manufacturer.

I know standards slipped badly in the 70's and 80's. And my question is: is this alone what has damaged Colt's reputation so badly? If it is, it just goes to show, you can't ever treat your customers badly, or they will walk away, and good luck winning them back.

Like I say, just an observation. So I don't wan't to open up the floor to a whole bunch of slandering, and abuse directed at Colt, just some insight really. I suspect that the generation(s) above me can throw the most light on the matter......for they are much wiser than I :D

Thanks.

[Kevinch]

Colt has made some decisions in manufacturing and marketing that have been viewed as less than supportive to the civilian market.

They haven't done anything like Bill Ruger's letter of support for the mag limit, or the S&W sellout by signing the Agreement. I believe most of the animosity stems from Colt products not being available to the average citizen, & possibly some of the comments made by management.

I never followed it too closely - I own only a Colt Mustang, which, incidently, Colt has ceased to manufacture & now replacement parts are getting very difficult to come by. It looks as though they are not supporting those of us who purchased these guns, and I've had mine only for about 10 years.

I'm sure there are others here who have closely followed Colt that can further clarify.

[Complicated]

Thanks for that. Makes me wonder why people still love Smith and Wesson, especially when they buckle to the anti-gunners, aggreeing to scale down civilian production....

[BigG]

I still think the Colt 45 Automatic Pistol is the real deal. I also like the AR15 prebans. Colt did screw up by going bankrupt and allowing CT to take over, imho. They are still making some very nice 45 Autos. Everything else is mostly envy, imho.

[GreenFurniture]

Colt allowed their QC to fall into an abyss which lead to the elevation of other brands selling similar products.

An example would be a brand-spanking-new Gunsite pistol we recently sold which had the hammer pin drilled out of round causing the hammer to fall unevenly.

[Ash]

And, from what I understand, Colt's quality slid while their prices rose. There were genuinely better-made 1911's for less. Colt went non-compatible with their AR-15, making it in such a way as to require a large number of Colt-only parts. That drew the ire of the AR community, many of whom bought handguns as well.

Plus, Colt's name rested, and rests, on their 1911 and SAA and to a lesser extent, their da revolvers. Both are among the most expensive on the market, both have competitors that are as good or better for less. Resting on ones laurels and name can cause trouble, and apparently that is what happened with Colt.

Yet, their DA Autos were ALL a flop, none of them lasting long. Their revolvers are often regarded as not as good as S&W, and their product line is very, very small. Many of their small autos were made by Star, which caused some contempt as well.

In truth, Colt used to be THE player in the auto market. Now, they are a small player save for some military contracts.

Whereas CZ, less-well known than Colt, offers an entire line of autos ranging from .45ACP down to .32ACP, all of which have good reputations (even their plastic gun, the CZ-100, is considered pretty good, if one can get past their bad trigger) plus sporting rifles and now shotguns, Colt offers really only offers three products now, an AR, the SAA, and the 1911. Sure, there are variations of each product, but all in all, that's it. Their military and police offerings are basically just AR's, with the addition of the grenade launcher.

Ruger & CZ offere more variety in handguns and longguns, SIG and Glock offer more handgun chamberings, Beretta, too. Bushmaster makes a fine AR and there are upteen million 1911 manufacturers. Ruger makes a very good SAA, as do many other companies.

In the end, what you get with Colt is an engraving of a horse on your handgun. For many, that just isn't enough anymore.

Ash

[Lonestar.45]

I think Colt makes fine guns, I don't have any problem with them per se. But, I don't own any, simply because I find that in many instances you're paying for the name more so than for the quality of the gun. There are so many good companies out there now making 1911's and AR's (Colt's mainstays) that I don't feel they're the tops in terms of quality vs. dollar spent.

[Titus]

I would say quality was down for a while in the 90s too.

[Warner]

After all is said and done, Colt is still the place to go to get a 1911 for me.

After a few equipment checks (break-in) and the replacement of a few small parts, you will have a trusty lifetime companion. I don't want any of my major parts made in Brazil, or of the MIM process. Nor do I want my ejector glued in. Give me forged, machined and pinned, and checked by Americans.

Colt may have their PR problems across the spectrum, but everything else - really is - just a ........ well, you know.

W

[Sean Smith]

The current 01991 series Colts are excellent guns for the money. Their more expensive "specialty" guns less so. My experience with Colts has been pretty uniformy positive.

[Titus]

Many of their small autos were made by Star, which caused some contempt as well.

Which ones?

[Domino]

Not to mention a Colt SA (revolver in .45 Colt) will run you what like $1500, which is a complete joke since Ruger makes a better product for less than half the price. The same goes with their 1911's and AR's, there are so many other companies that make great products at a fraction of the cost. If someone wants to pay the money for a real Colt than that is none of my business but they make an inferior product at a more expensive price which is impossible for most to justify.

Seriously, think about it all Colt has going for them is their name. If they were a brand new company and had the same products at the same prices people would laugh at such an attempt to rip off consumers.

[MICHAEL T]

TITUS; The little 25 auto was either Star or Astra depening on when made. In 70's was a Colt Pony 380 that as I remember was Star made(note Not Mustang Series) . My self I wish Star was still around they made some nice pistols better than Llama junk.

[LeonCarr]

I think Colt got the big head manufacturing M16s for the US military, and basically forgot about the civilians who bought their guns. Now you have everybody and their uncle making 1911s, with many making a product vastly superior to the Colt, IMO. It is kinda like when once upon a time Indian made all of the motorcycles for the US military, and basically forgot about the civilians who bought their bikes. Then a little known company called Harley-Davidson began manufacturing motorcycles for the civilian market, and the rest is history :).

[Titus]

MICHAEL T - Didn't know that. I've always thought my Pocket Nine wasn't exactly the proudest example of what Colt is capable of, so I thought Aha! That's what I'll blame it on. :)

[Hawk]

I recently got a Colt 1911 Gubmint model and have been real pleased with it. Reasonable price, well put together, runs 100%.

That being said (c), I got it because I trusted the dealer and knew he'd make it right if it was junk. My previous encounter was a Gold Cup around 1980 and it was just plain awful - I mean AMT hardballer awful - wouldn't run, loose as a castonet and, to top it off, expensive. Junk is one thing, expensive junk is quite another. I guess they were going through a "Harley Davidson/AMT" phase where they were making their flagship out of used bowling ball parts.

Anyhow, my current example is very, very good. Harley's forgiven; Colt's forgiven. At least for me personally, YMMV.

Now, if they'd just broker out the SAA production totally to USFA and Turnbull :evil:
gdar

[Sean Smith]

with many making a product vastly superior to the Colt, IMO.

"Vastly superior"? LMAO. Only if you drink the marketing Kool-Aid. :neener:

[Ala Dan]

Years ago, when Colt decided to discontinue sales to civilians it caused
me to leave Colt products behind, and I've never looked back! :( :scrutiny: :mad:

[P. Plainsman]

The many accounts one reads of the atrocious quality of recent Colt SAAs are evidence of a company with some real problems. I cannot see any reason to buy a new SAA from Colt. When I finally save enough to buy a premium single-action, I will go with U.S. Firearms.

The 1911s are a different story. They're the only new Colts you regularly see on the shelves around here; they look good; they are fairly priced; and they sell. I am not saying they are the best 1911s (I wouldn't know), but Colt is still a player in that market.

My single fondest gun wish would be for Colt to start making new Python and Diamondback DA revolvers of the old quality (let's say 1970s, if not 1950s & '60s quality). I would pay through the nose for 'em, if they were good.

But it's not going to happen.

[El Tejon]

Complicated, a large measure of the hostility is based on the fact that THR is composed of a large number of "true believers" in the RKBA. When Colt stabbed us in the back circa 1990, we have not forgotten or forgiven them. :fire:

[JohnBT]

"Seriously, think about it all Colt has going for them is their name."

:confused: You mean my new plinker, one of the WWI replicas, ain't the cat's meow? Could have fooled me.

John

[Parker Dean]

Years ago, when Colt decided to discontinue sales to civilians it caused
me to leave Colt products behind, and I've never looked back!

Colt NEVER stopped selling guns to the civilian market. What they did was stop selling directly to retail level shops, instead preferring to use a warehouse distributor like just about every other manufacturer. Various retail sellers, and other manufacturers of firearms have used this change to bash Colt for their own motives for years.

[Sean Smith]

Years ago, when Colt decided to discontinue sales to civilians

As noted, this statement is nonsense. :rolleyes:

[Kramer Krazy]

Motorcycle references clarified:

Indian Motorcycles - founded in 1901
Harley Davidson - founded in 1903
BOTH Indian and HD made war-time motorcycles
Harley Davidson/AMF (American Machine and Foundry) was Harley's "bad days"....sources vary for years, but typically 1969-1982.

:D

[El Tejon]

IIRC, Colts decision to not include us serfs only pertained to the eeevil AR-15 with a knife. Good thing too as we serfs are too stupid to have a knife about. :rolleyes:

[Ash]

One would have to drink the "Kool-Aide" to buy some Colt products these days. Unless, of course, that same drinker had money to burn and didn't care that they were spending more on less. If Colt were still as great in reality as in some people's minds, they would not have gone through all that financial trouble. They would have a decent double action auto and DA revolvers as well.

Devotion to Colt can be as silly as to Glock, sillier in some cases.

Ash

[45auto]

It's easy to "whack" Colt around because at one point, they were #1 in sales and now, they are probably 3rd or 4th in 1911 sales. Give S&W another couple of years and Colt will, no doubt, be 4th or 5th.

Bad things happen when you don't respond to the marketplace, either in quality, models offered, service, etc.

[brickboy240]

I used to have a Series 80 Govt. Model. I spent nearly 800 dollars for the thing. It had some issues, like a weak extractor and I did not like the plastic mainspring housing and trigger. I had a few jams here and there throughout its shooting expereinces...not alot...but some. It got stolen from my truck years ago.

I bought a Springfield Mil-Spec a year ago and the hting has not given me a lick of trouble. This pistol cost me about 425 bucks.

I dislike Colt, becuase I bought into the "its got to be a Colt, if its a 1911" philosophy years ago, when I could have bought the SA and a reloading press for the same money.

The Colt was a decent pistol, its just that they're pricey and it is VERY possible that you can get a 1911 that performs as good or better for much less cash outlay.

If you feel better by seeing "Colt" on the slide...fine...but my experiences showed me that you CAN get as good or better 1911 for less money. Springfield and Kimber have proven it.

-Brickboy240

[Silent Bob]

I have owned several 1911s, and Colts have always worked the best for me. Springfields less so, and the one Kimber I had, well, suffice it to say, it was the first and last Kimber I owned.

[Sean Smith]

Devotion to Colt can be as silly as to Glock, sillier in some cases.

Yeah, aside from accuracy and reliability, and being cheaper than a Kimber, what was I thinking? :rolleyes:

[Dr.Rob]

Colt still makes a darn fine 1911, they've had more practice than anyone else.

The 'horror stories' of teh Gold Gup comes from tightening teh tolerences (read clearences) that a 1911 needs to run well.. an Old Colt might rattle when you shake it, but it goes bang every time.

"Accurizing" (by gunsmiths who look suspiciously like your cousin Ed who made a waffle iron from a manhole cover) caused a whole new secondary market.. fixing messed up guns.

I think the SAA is overpriced. I also think Colt's 38 Super still looks like a Custom Shop piece, compared to a Springfield or Kimber. And yes, you do pay for the lil Pony.

But I like the Pony.

I realize Colt isn't 'run the way we want it' but I'll likley keep buying Colts--old ones and new ones.

[Steelharp]

Just remember what somebdy once said... (no, I can't remember who...)

"The only reason anyone would ever hate you is because they want to be just like you."

[spacemanspiff]

having watched as the gun-manufacturer cagematches have unfolded the last few years, i decided to get some hard data. so i posted this poll (http://66.80.73.51/showthread.php?t=129586) to see who bought what.

turns out colt is not at the bottom of the list. hmmmm. they still have a good amount of customers, so they are doing something right.

in fact, as far as i can tell their biggest hurdle is that their facilities arent large enough to fill the orders they have.

colt pistols sell like hotcakes, while every gunshop and their brother sells glocks, or should i say, has more glocks in their inventory than they know what to do with.

whether or not colt products are any better than their competitors, who cares? just about every manufacturer out there has success and failures with their quality control. every manufacturer has batches of lemons.

people who buy colt products often do so because of the colt name. if they wanted to buy something that their local gunshop had a ready supply of, they'd choose the kimber, or the glock or the sig, because the market is flooded with those products.

[Krag]

Colt's products always were overrated. Webley and S&W made a better revolvers in the 19th century; S&W made better DA revolvers from 1896 onward; they had a "captive market" with the 1911 for several decades and once real comeptition showed up, they (for all practical purposes) couldn't handle it and folded.

Colt has been a joke for the past 30 years and living on borrowed time due to their (undeserved) reputation.

You're right, I don't like them or their products! :mad:

[Chuck R.]

I can only go by personal experience, I currently own:

6” Ultimate Stainless Python (1980s)
Gold Cup (1980s)
4 ¾ SAA in 45Colt 3rd generation (1996)
5 ½” SAA in 45 Colt 3rd generation (??)
7 ½ SAA in 45 Colt 1st Generation

I’ve also owned (2 )1911A1s, a Royal Blue 6” Python (1970s), a MKIII Trooper (1970s).

Other than a broken firing pin in the Blued Python while dry firing, I’ve never had a problem with one of my Colts. Both of my 3rd generation SAAs came from the custom shop, and I can’t find flaw with the fit or finish. So far, I’ve been pretty happy with the company.

I do think they missed an opportunity by not jumping on the “semi-custom” 1911 bandwagon sooner, but I wouldn’t hesitate to buy another one of their guns.

Chuck

[Maddock]

Colt’s QC has been very uneven over the last 25 years or more while they price their products as if they held to the standards of the “Golden Years”. As an example – the Gunsite Service Pistol retails for around $1298 or the same price as a Yost-Bonitz 1* 1991A1 Pistol package which includes the base pistol. I've seen both and the Colt Gunsite, while a nice pistol, is not in the class of the Yost-Bonitz.

[Krag]

I have owned five Colt products over the years (OK, so I'm a slow learner :( ): a Combat Commander, two Pythons, a Detective Special and an early CAR15.

ALL of them were returned to the factory multiple times for problems - NONE of which were ever corrected. I assume Colt felt that "customer service" was some kind of big joke? :banghead:

I traded them all in on other brands which did work as expected. If you gave me the choice between a Colt or a sharp rock I'd ask you one question: "Flint or slate?"

[Dienekes]

Colt has been mismanaged for more years than I have been alive. They have also dropped more good guns than most companies have ever made. Not to mention that S&W took the postwar law enforcement market away from them without even breaking a sweat.

My guess would be a lack of imagination/leadership, labor costs, and no feel for the product or the customer.

Sort of reminds you of Detroit.

[Bacon]

I'm not a big Colt fan and when I bought my first 1911 20 years ago it was a Springfield because of Colt's QC issues I had read about in the gun rags. Bought an early model Kimber when they came out. Liked it. Read that Colt has been making good 1911's lately and finally bought a Govt. Model XSE. Guess what? It's an accurate shooter. Nice fit & finish. I like it alot. Both the Springer and Kimber have been sold. The Colt stays.

Steve

[Boss Spearman]

Colt is working on the smart gun, a far worse thing than what S&W did. I'll never own a Colt after seeing their rep talk about how they owe it to their consumers to make their guns 'safe'.

[Steelharp]

You know, every company out there has made great guns, good guns, and stinkers. Not every stinker can be caught before it hits the consumer end of the pipe. Neither can every lousy car, or washing machine, or refrigerator, etc. Heck, you can't catch every lousy person before they do something wrong. We've all seen the 300,000 round Glock, and the one that went kaboom. The dead reliable Springer, and the one that wouldn't feed anything. I would imagine, with Beretta being in business longer than anybody, they've probably had more guns screwed up in 400+ years than a company that's been around since the 1980's.

I've been lucky; every Colt, Glock, Ruger, S&W I've ever owned has run just like it should. The only POS I ever had was a Wilson. I know, that's rare... but how many guns have they made? Many, but not as many as Colt has made in 150+ years.

If you get a great gun, enjoy it, depend on it; if you get a good gun, enjoy it, but don't trust your life to it; if you get a stinker, get it fixed, or sell it, but at any rate... kwityerbitchin'.

I shall now remove myself from the soapbox...

[No_Brakes23]

I absolutely love my Series 70, but my dad bought 6 or so of them in '78 and modded them all, so I can't even judge Colt based on my pistol. The sights, thumb safety, & spring were all changed, and various parts were modified. It is without a doubt my favorite weapon to fire.

I have fired a King Cobra, and I liked it a lot, but Smith and Ruger both make good revolvers that I enjoy firing, too.

That said I have little to no respect for firearms companies that puss out, so I won't be buying a Colt or S&W anytime soon, and even though I could easily find several Rugers I would love to own, I am not buying one anytime soon, (Guess I am screwed as far as wheelguns go.) Besides, other people make better stuff for less.

[Dienekes]

Steelharp--Sorry but I can't agree about quality control being a random thing and the inevitability of junk. Granted, Murphy's Law is always a factor, but a real committment to quality (W. Edwards Deming, et al) makes a difference.

Postwar Japan was an economic and industrial basket case and essentially reinvented itself. Detroit took its customers for granted (like some gun companies I could mention) and assumed that we would continue buying whatever they made regardless of quality. Wrong.

American companies--including Colt--can and have made world-beating first class products and can do it again. But first they have to *want* to.

I keep seeing where this or that company has a "great service department". Bull. When I buy a gun I want it to be right out of the box and work properly for many, many years. The story goes that in the early years Ruger's service department was a cigar box full of parts on the secretary's desk. Not sure if it is true but it's something to shoot for. I do know in my early years of this stuff guns had an eerie way of working every time (and I miss that).

As things now stand a police trade-in Model 10 revolver is probably the most reliable and trustworthy gun out there at any price....

[TheDutchman]

I Have a Few Colts:
GM 70's .38 super
3rd Gen DS
SS Mustang II
1991a1 Commander
They all work Great no problems.

[Ash]

Well, I do have a Colt Trooper Mk III that is a fine revolver with a wonderful trigger. My mother has a Colt New Service in .45LC that is equally good. I have never owned any of the snake revolvers, but the Colts I have owned or been around have been good (but the newest one was made in the late 1970's or so).

Ash

[Tom Servo]

Just my own experience, but I've had two Colts in the family, and both were clunkers. The first was a '68 1911A1 that my father had, which needed about $450 worth of gunsmithing to get through more than one magazine without a jam. Second was a Defender I had back in the '90s, which ran me more than an equivalent Kimber would these days. It would ONLY eat light-grain ammo, and it just couldn't get through a box of JHPs. After what I spent on it initially, I wasn't spending any more, and I sold it.

Colt put me off 1911s for years.

From what I've heard from retailers, Colt thumbed their nose at the civilian market for decades, saying "well, we've got all the military contracts." Thing is, they no longer have those contracts, and they're STILL failing the civilian market. Oops.

[Kramer Krazy]

Ok, I'll add my 1.67 cents in here (after taxes) on my Colts:

1) 70 Series Gold Cup ('70's manufacture) - flawless
2) 1989 Government Model 1911 - flawless
3) 1982(?) Officer's Model - nothing but problems until recently cured by 1911Tuner
4) 1993 Anaconda - flawless
5) 2001 Python - flawless
6) 1971 Detective Special (about 300 rounds, so far) - flawless
7) 1990 AR-15A2 - flawless

I'm always watching out for good deals on Colts, but they seem to be far and few between. I've been more recently looking at old Police Positives, Detective Specials, Agents, Cobras, and the like. All of their 1911s and Mustangs have gotten ridiculous on prices, but you can still find decent deals.....I regretably passed on a Mustang Pocketlite for $339 with holster and three mags a month ago. :(

[Sean Smith]

Wow, alot of anti-Colt hysterics here. :rolleyes:

[Berg01]

I look at it this way; when you can get a product (as an example) from Rock River Arms like their National Match Hardball pistol for @$1,500.00, how in the world do you get a truly comparable product out of Colt for anywhere near that price? You could take a Series 70 custom reissue for around $800.00, and then spend the additional $700.00 with a good pistolsmith, and then perhaps get something that is very close in form, fit, function, and overall quality. Unless you pick you modifications carefully with a very good 'smith, that could be a big MAYBE.

Another example is the STI Trojan, which I think is a very good 1911 for the money (@1,000.00). Is there really a Colt today that compares to it at that pricepoint?

But the real issue is, with the RRA, you get in line once for delivery. You may not have to wait for the Trojan. Otherwise you're in line twice, you have to wait on Colt, and then wait on the pistolsmith work.

Just my own $0.02 worth of viewpoints; yours may differ, and thats fine by me.

[spacemanspiff]

the flipside, berg, is that it takes other manufacturers that much more work and money to make what colt has already perfected.

:neener:

[Kurt]

Personally (and within reasonable bounds) I really could care less how much it costs or how long it takes to get a Colt that's personalized and reliable. If mine somehow disappeared, I would immediately do whatever it took to secure replacements.

Sure Colt 1911 style guns may made need some work, and it might even be advisable to have a reliability package done to any Colt destined for serious work. But when it's done, you'll have a modern day Excalibur. :D :p

Like so many here, I do not necessarily live in the present when I’m evaluating a self-defense pistol, especially when considering one for long-term SD use. That means just because a Kimber is shooting and grouping fine today, doesn’t mean that one of its many little MIM time bombs won’t go off at Mr. Murphy’s behest. That would be just be a too large and embarrassing "shame on me" (that I couldn't handle very well) because the necessary information can be found out there to avoid those problems.

For me, the Colt brand and its history of not breaking down over time suggests a quality high above whatever Kimber, Springfield Armory et al could ever manage with their "low-bid" type part usage. It's a simple matter of history and current smarts about what other manufacturers are using to build their guns with, along with an understanding of why such knowledge is important, long term.

The differences may indeed appear small to some, but they are vital.

:)

[Steelharp]

Dienekes... you mean to tell me every mechanical, electronic, and manually operated device/item you've ever owned has always worked absolutely flawlessly from the moment you obtained it, and is still in your posession working perfectly???

I'm just proud to be basking in your aura... :D

[Kurt]

That's taking it to extremes, dontcha' think?

[Ohen Cepel]

I have many guns. No Colts at this time. Wasn't a conscious decision, either I thought the competition was better in the price range or just couldn't find a Colt.

I'm looking for a used Python now and will be happy to have it. However, can't see paying the price for a new one from the custom shop.

I don't have anything against Colt, just rarely find them or thing they are way overpriced. I'm not even sure how they have stayed in business this long.

[Steelharp]

Kurt, I was just referring back to his reply to my earlier post:

Sorry but I can't agree about quality control being a random thing and the inevitability of junk.

No biggie...

[Kurt]

Thanks Steelharp. Agreed - no biggie

:)

[richyoung]

You ask why? I'll tell you why....most of the reasons are 1911 related...

1. Post-WWII - pre model 70 commercial 1911s. AT this time, bullseye and other competition shooters routinely have slide to frame play reduced by squeezing slides and peening frame rails down. For such a pistol to last any length of time and stay tight, the wear surfaces, especially on the slide, have to be extra hard - the so-called "hard slides" that the governemnt contracted for to build match guns starting sometine in the late 50's/early 60's. Contractors supllying those "hard slides" include IMI, Drake Manufacturing, and Colt, so Colt knew how to heat-treat a slide, yet their commercial guns of the period often had slides so hard that they cracked when squeezed, or so soft that they quickly wore out when tightly fitted. Plus fit and finish was taking a downward turn, as was the cosmetic quality of their polish, markings and blueing.
2. The "Series 70" collet bushing. See, it costs time and money to either hold your tolerences tight enough so that hand-fitting the barrel bushing is unneccessary, or to bite the bullet and hand-fit an oversize bushing to those guns that need it. The alternative is to release guns so sloppy due to tolerance stack-up tha accuracy is unacceptable. Colt found a middle way - rather than a solid barrel bush like JMB designed, they invented a new one with springy fingers that engaged the slide and supported the part that the barrel rides in, on the theory that the springiness would return the business end of the barrel to approximately the same place each time, resulting in just-barely acceptable accuracy without the need for expensive hand fitting OR quality control on their slide dimensions. Problem is, shooters fall into roughly three classes, 1. those shooting for accuracy, usually in some type of competition, 2. those buying a weapon for self defense, and 3. those who do both. The collet bushing HAD to be replaced for serious target work - nothing other than a solid busing will do. Alas, for serious defensive carry you HAD to.... replace the collet bushing, because WHEN (not if) one of those springy fingers breaks off (do the terms "metal fatigue" and "stress riser" ring a bell with anyone?), it almost always ties up the action, potentially leaving you, Our Hero, in a gun fight with a disabled gun. So Colt made a decision to go with a style of part that 99.8% of it's customers would have to pay big $$$ for someone to replace.
3. The "Series 80" firing pin lock. OK first a 1911 has to fall 21 feet straight on its muzzle for the firing pin to hit the primer hard enough to MAYBE set it off. If that happens while I'm wearing it, I have bigger problems than an AD. Second, this problem can be addressed without messing with the basic design, a la Springfield's decision to go with a titanium firing pin. Thirdly, if you are GOING to add a firing pin lock, add one that works off of the GRIP SAFETY, (a type Colt had used pre-war), so that it doesn't mess with the trigger pull. Not to mention the collet bushing is still hanging around at this time.
4. Plastic parts. Hey, if we wanted combat tupperware, we would be buying Glocks. Do the marketing geniea at Colt understand this? NO! They persist in replacing parts like the mainspring housing, grips, etc with plastic. So now, while we are busy replacing the collet bushing, and in some cases pulling the Series 80 firing pin lock parts, we also get to buy and install whatever steel replacements for the plastic we need.

Add to this discontinuing or making custom-shop-only items out of all the other cool Colt handguns, the "Double Eagle" that would go off if something pressed on the exposed trigger bar, the "Colt 2000", having their small guns made overseas by generally less-desirable manufacturers, their political stances vis-a-vis the gun buying public, the jam-a-matic reputation of the early M-16s, yadda, yadda, yadda.....

[medmo]

I have also heard of the QC slipping starting in the 70's but none of the Colts that I have owned seemed effected. I wonder what the truth is to that idea and if there is any data that someone might be able to quantify it. The reason that I'm ticked off at Colt is because I think it is a company that has turned it's back on the American shooting public and focuses strictly on government customers. They have scaled back their product offerings to a fraction of what it was 20 years ago. What new innovation have they offered recently? This leads me to believe that they are not seriously interested in competing for the consumer share of the public market. I sincerely wiSH the best for Colt and hope that the same thing that happened to S&W happens to them, (new owners, new management, new philosophy and a new attitude).

[Sean Smith]

Um, the only plastic part on a current Colt is the MSH, which Kimbers also have. Some stainless models have black rubber grips, but so do most stainless guns made by most other folks... most of them have nice wood grips. Colt removed the plastic triggers years ago. And so on.

I swear, people seem to be determined to be hysterical about Colt. It's just a mass-produced 1911 that isn't that different from everyone else's mass-produced 1911. :rolleyes:

And if you are going to bitch about materials used to make the gun, Colts are head and shoulders above everything under $1,000. Compare the amount of MIM content for details. ;)

[Berg01]

And if you are going to bitch about materials used to make the gun, Colts are head and shoulders above everything under $1,000. Compare the amount of MIM content for details.

O.K., fine, show us a Colt product under a grand that compares to this, then I'll stand corrected;

Dawson Precision - STI Trojan 5.0 (http://www3.mailordercentral.com/shootingstore/prodinfo.asp?number=STI11509)

[Delmar]

All this noise about Colt reminds me of when Winchester decided to compete with Remington. They went to a push feed and the fit of the rifles was not so fine, so they could get price competitive. The gun writers of the day made no mention of the fact that the post 64 M70's were on average more accurate. They just went on and on about problems, mostly imagined.

Winchester suffered for decades because of it. And, just like Colt-they had to put up with the fact that their rifles did not look as good. On top of that, the gun rags just piled on about because the rifles were uglier, they just could not shoot as well. The rumors and unfounded accusations multiplied like bunnies to the point where it became "fact".

Now, we STILL have the completely unfounded story about how Colt no longer sells to civilians, and without fail, it seems that every thread from a person wanting to buy a Colt is asking about "reliability packages" and what all parts need to be replaced.

There is a very simple answer. SHOOT the thing and see what you have! I ran a dreaded MIM extractor in a series 80 for over 100,000 rounds and never even touched it other than to clean the darned thing. In fact, I didn't know it was MIM until someone told me how to ID one. Same goes for the plastic MSH-I finally replaced it last year because I like the balance with a steel housing. Never had a problem with the plastic-to me, its just a nice thing to have.

Colts aren't for everyone, any more than Smith & Wesson, Ruger-whatever. SOme people just cannot shoot the 1911 platform-limp wristing or whatever. Not that you could ever get them to admit it. It HAS to be the pistols fault! Some people are just better shots with a different design, There is no good or bad about it. If it fits you, leave it be and shoot the heck out of it. It is one tough pistol to wear out.

These hearsay stories about how Colt is this and that are getting pretty long in the tooth, and while there are some Colts which have issues, they are a manufactured product. And like most anything man made, some are going to have real problems. But to damn every one of them by one example is not reflective of the entire production.

[W Turner]

I have only owned two Colt firearms in my life, one was a Colt Defender that had a crooked and faded rollmark, the other was a Mustang that was flawless and I wish I still had it.

If you took a Colt 1991A1, A Springfield Mil-Spec, and a Rock Island Armory Gov't. Model (GASP!!), removed all of the manufacturer's markings and had people shoot each of them. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that 98% of the people out there could not tell the difference. The difference to me is that Springfield Armory, Sig and STI are the only players in the game that still have the original lockwork as John Browning designed it.

Colt has the 80 series firing pin safety
S&W, MIMber both have the Scwartz system.

Yes, Springfield does have the ILS, but it is easily removed, unlike the Colt, and the Schwartz system.

IMO, Colts are great pistols, but they are not a better value than Springfield, S&W, MIMber, STI, etc. I won't pay a premium just because it has a little horsey on it.

SA Revos- I'm not really into them, but why pay $1k+ for one when you can get a Ruger for $500 or less?

AR15- I would rather not deal with the odd-sized pin holes and the extra cost when Bushmaster builds just as good a gun for $200 less. Bushmaster also has not publicly stated that they will not sell AR's with the "evil" features to civilians.

Make Sense?

W

[HankB]

Now, we STILL have the completely unfounded story about how Colt no longer sells to civilians, So I can go through normal retail channels and readily buy a brand new Colt AR15 with a *100% legal* bayonet lug and a *100% legal* threaded barrel on which is screwed a *100% legal* flash hider? Really? Colt's has no "LEO Only" policy for rifle sales like this?

And the rifle will have standard USGI-size pins and won't have a steel block in the lower to impede trigger work?

All through regular civilian, non-LEO sales channels?

Please, tell me WHERE!!!

Anyway, I soured on Colt's when I bought a new Mk IV Series 70 Government Model Jammamatic which would hardly ever make it through a full magazine of hardball without jamming. And - most importantly - repeated trips back to Colt's for warranty work didn't solve the problem :cuss: :banghead: :fire:

I don't deal with unethical companies that won't honor their warranties.

[richyoung]

"These hearsay stories about how Colt is this and that are getting pretty long in the tooth,"

I'm pretty sure that every one of my allegations can be easily documented, most by little more than a Google search...

[Sean Smith]

O.K., fine, show us a Colt product under a grand that compares to this, then I'll stand corrected;

$1,024 from the manufacturer. So you found a super-cheap deal? Have a cookie. ;)

http://www.stiguns.com/guns/Trojan5/Trojan5.html

O1991 < $600.

Great comparison. :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure that every one of my allegations can be easily documented, most by little more than a Google search...

Like your claim about Colts being full of plastic? "Oh look, one plastic part, waaah! Colt BAAAD! Now watch me pretend that Kimber doesn't do the same thing... or Para... or... " ;)

I won't pay a premium just because it has a little horsey on it.

Has there been a sudden drop in math scores since I last posted here? Colt 01991 series guns cost LESS than most of their counterparts from SA, Kimber, DW or Para-Ord. At least mine did, it was <$600 for a new O1991 that was better than any Kimber or Para-Ord I ever owned.

[JohnBT]

A new Colt that doesn't need any work for less than a grand? Okay, here's another one...

http://www.ronsgunshop.com/images/1911reproleft.jpg

[richyoung]

Like your claim about Colts being full of plastic? "Oh look, one plastic part, waaah! Colt BAAAD! Now watch me pretend that Kimber doesn't do the same thing... or Para... or... "

1911 Colt platic parts:
Grips (NOT rubber, or neoprene...PLASTIC!)
Mainspring housing
Trigger

That's THREE. If in your mind, 3=1, I wouldn't go around making jokes about people's math scores. They may not currently be using the plastic trigger, but they certainly have until recently, making it entirely possible to find a new 1991, (by the way, nice choice of a no-polish parkerized military type to try to keep the Colt cost down...) on a dealer's shelf TODAY with all three plastic parts.

Number of plastic parts in my Dan Wesson 1911? ONE - the shock buff I installed.

Perhaps plastic isn't an issue with you - if so, I kindly point you to:

cracked 10mm 1911'a (gee, does Colt even make one anymore? Other manufacturers seem to have cracked the code on a 10mm that doesn't crack...)
AR15s with non-milspec pin holes and the infamous steel block
The "Double Eagle" (Gee, does Colt even make one anymore?)
The "Colt 2000" (ditto)
Series 80 lockwork (I like MY guns to "Bang" when I pull the trigger, which I prefer not to have a gritty, heavy pull)
Collet Bushing (Hey, if Colt COULD make it out of plastic, they would!)
The 'LEO only" mentality
Overpriced SA revolvers - seems like everyone else under the sun can sellthem for less than $500

[Berg01]

$1,024 from the manufacturer. So you found a super-cheap deal? Have a cookie. O1991 < $600. Great comparison.

YOU said the Colt was the best gun under $1,000.00, then I showed a better gun for $922.00, then you come back & say that this is a great comparison to a 01991 Colt at under $600.00. Now there's some twisted logic in action!

O.K., I'll play...How about a Springer Mil-Spec? Cheaper yet and no Series 80 trigger control to mess with?

And I can tell you what you can do with your cookies!

[Delmar]

Sorry your experience with Colt's have been so bad, RichYoung. Mine, and many others has been good, and I see no reason to change. I suppose that if I had that many problems with my ponies, I would have traded them in and moved on.

The fact that I currently have 4 Colts in working order, made from the early 80's to a Gold Cup Trophy which I can drag out of the locker or my holster and fire without issue, I need say no more. I also have many friends with Colts and they have similar non-issues.

Your venom as to plastic grips puzzles me. I dearly love a nice looking set of wood grips, but for functionality, I personally like Pachmyers. Again, not for everyone, but I see no issue with plastic grips or MSH. BTW, a lot of WWII issue pistols also used plastic grips, so its not really anything new.

None of my Colts have plastic triggers either, although apart from asthetics, I don't see this as much of an issue.

As to the firing pin safety issue-I really can't say much. All of mine have the system, and I feel nothing of what you speak. If the pull is heavy and gritty, its not solely due or majorly due to the firing pin safety. That is nothing but hype and a desperate attempt to blame something which people don't understand. If you look at the mechanics of how it works, it might add a half pound of pull.

Can't speak to the cracked 10MM's because I have not seen one. I understand it happened on the early pistols due to the hot loadings available, but I cannot confirm it. Maybe somebody like Sean Smith can address this one-I know he is a big believer in the cartridge, and seems to dote on his Colt.

What really cracks me up is listening to people complain about Colts. In the 60's, it was the 50's models and pre war which was great. In the 70's, it was the 60's which was good. In fact, that collet would get you killed-despite several thousand sold and fired without issue. Then, the Series 80-the trigger pull was so terrible that you had to stomp on it with logger boots to make it go bang! All of a sudden, the series 70 "death trap" model was the deal to have.

[Sean Smith]

1911 Colt platic parts:
Grips (NOT rubber, or neoprene...PLASTIC!)
Mainspring housing
Trigger

That's THREE. If in your mind, 3=1, I wouldn't go around making jokes about people's math scores.

Guess I should just make jokes about your reading comprehension instead? :D

http://www.colt.com/CMCI/1991.asp

RUBBER grips (or ROSEWOOD).
ALUMINUM triggers.

Colts have been that way for something like the last 5 years. Nice try, tough guy. ;)

Actually they became widely available late 2001... 01991 models upgraded with new markings, wood grips (rubber on stainless models), polished frame & slide flats, aluminum triggers, revised barrel throat, and assorted other improvements.

[RON in PA]

I have a 2003 vintage basic blued NRM Colt 1911. The only plastic part is the MSH. The grips are are nice rosewood. The gun goes bang when I use ball ammo, which is mostly what I shoot. The quality, fit and finish of the piece is just fine. The grooves on the on the slide are vertical, like they are supossed to be. For under $600 who's complaining.

[Sean Smith]

YOU said the Colt was the best gun under $1,000.00, then I showed a better gun for $922.00

If you want to argue the semantics of some place that has a $1,024 STI on sale for $920ish just to prove me "wrong," then OK, whatever.

[richyoung]

"Sorry your experience with Colt's have been so bad, RichYoung."

Actually, to be fair, and for the record, the absolute best gun I've ever owned was a Frankenstein 1911 built out of a early Caspian cast frame and a pre-70's slide I bought from an "old coot" who used to build pistols for the Air Force marksmanship team and who had a garage full of parts of various and diverse provender - may he or she who stole it rot in hell...

"Your venom as to plastic grips puzzles me. I dearly love a nice looking set of wood grips, but for functionality, I personally like Pachmyers."

Pachmyers are rubber, with steel insets. When not wearing wood, my 1911's wear Pachmyers as well.

" Again, not for everyone, but I see no issue with plastic grips or MSH."

Call me crazy, but I prefer steel to be used for critical parts of a firearm. As to the grips, it's more of a quality/pride of ownership deal...after all, wood isn't scare - it really grows on TREES! :neener:

"BTW, a lot of WWII issue pistols also used plastic grips, so its not really anything new."

Agreed, but then again Uncle Sam was paing for those weapons, not Butt Pocket National Bank...

"None of my Colts have plastic triggers either, although apart from asthetics, I don't see this as much of an issue."

again - a mission-critical part....I carry my 1911, I want STEEL (or at least metal...)

"As to the firing pin safety issue-I really can't say much. All of mine have the system, and I feel nothing of what you speak. If the pull is heavy and gritty, its not solely due or majorly due to the firing pin safety. That is nothing but hype and a desperate attempt to blame something which people don't understand. If you look at the mechanics of how it works, it might add a half pound of pull."

"What really cracks me up is listening to people complain about Colts. In the 60's, it was the 50's models and pre war which was great. In the 70's, it was the 60's which was good. In fact, that collet would get you killed-despite several thousand sold and fired without issue. Then, the Series 80-the trigger pull was so terrible that you had to stomp on it with logger boots to make it go bang! All of a sudden, the series 70 "death trap" model was the deal to have. "

The series 70 is prefered as a basis for a custom build because:
1. No series 80 parts to delete, no block-off plate to buy, + there are many smiths who WILL NOT remove or deactivate an existing safety due to potential liabiliity down the road.
2. Easier to get a nice trigger pull without the Series 80 parts.
3. No plastic parts that have to be replaced.
4. The collet bushing is going to go bye-byes anyway, as fitting a match barrel and bushing is an expected part of a custom build.
5. The metallurgy issues of the pre-series 70's have been solved, so a tightened slide will hold up for a reasonable time before shooting loose.
6. The alternatives in a used gun from that time period are not attractive - DCM parts-o-clunkers, Sistema colts (soft steel), Randalls, AMTs, yadda, yadda, yadda.

[richyoung]

Guess I should just make jokes about your reading comprehension instead?


Oh the pain! The pain! THE PAIN!! :(

Now where is that confounded robot....

[Daniel T]

Some people just love to hate and to split hairs. <shrug>

I love my 4 Colts. Only problems I've had with any of them were all magazine related. Apparently, using cheap mags causes failures-to-feed! Whoodathunkit?

[JohnBT]

The price of everything, and the value of nothing.

Oh, I don't know. It just came to mind. Carry on.

John

[medmo]

"Colts have been that way for something like the last 5 years. Nice try, tough guy"

Sean Smith, you flexing here or what? I have no dog in this fight but I completely forgot what belt level I'm certified in but I do remember the training on how to use this here keyboard as a lethal weapon.

Dude, CHILL.

[Lobotomy Boy]

I've been half-heartedly shopping for a 1911 for a couple of years and have read a lot about various makes, both here and on the 1911 Forum. From what I've read, it seems that Colts are at least as reliable as Springfield or Kimber. The experience of people on this thread who've actually owned Colts (amazing how much people without any first-hand information seem to know on these types of threads) backs this up.

The violent and personal reactions of some people towards certain brands of guns with which they have no personal experience make little sense to me. It's as if Samual Colt himself came to these people's houses one morning and personally peed on all their Wheaties. Maintaining this level of rage about the guns other people choose to buy can't be healthy.

[Berg01]

LOOK FOLKS... if you already have a good Colt, Kimber, Springer, SW1911, Les Bair, Ed Brown, etc., etc., just get out & shoot it and enjoy it. If you are having problems or want some changes made, just get a good 'smith to set it up the way you want it. I know that a little tuning by a good smith can work wonders on a 1911-pattern pistol.

The rest of all this is really just a bunch of bullcrap, and I plead as guilty as any for adding to the manure pile.

[larry starling]

My Colt's have been excellent! None of the pistol's I have purchased have had any issues at all! I have owned plenty of 1911 from other manufactuers and only my colts have kept there value!!!! :evil:

[Delmar]

Larry-you bring up an interesting issue. If Colts are so bad-why DO they hold their value so well? I mean-Colt has had a spotty reputation for decades, if some are to be believed. If that were the case, why doesn't everyone stay away in droves?

[Feanaro]

Larry-you bring up an interesting issue. If Colts are so bad-why DO they hold their value so well? I mean-Colt has had a spotty reputation for decades, if some are to be believed. If that were the case, why doesn't everyone stay away in droves?

Why does Jennings stay in business? Why does A-MERC continue to shoot crap ammo out the door? Taurus has, and has has, a fairly bad reputation. Why don't people stay away in droves? Colt makes good to great products(IMO, of course), not nearly as good as the followers believe but still good to great. But holding value and success are not entirely based on the technical merits of the item. Marketing, nostalgia, hype, personnel attachment, and many other factors come into the fray. A number of people paying a premium for Colt SAA solely for the name, the pony, and it being a "real" SAA.

Nothing wrong with that. If I wanted an electric guitar I would buy a Stratocaster instead of a clone, could I afford it. But as anyone who doesn't like Rap can tell you, popularity ain't all it's cracked up to be. :evil:

[Stevie-Ray]

I personally have 4 Colts and love them all. One is my most accurate. One is my choice for the "You can have only one" thread. One is an heirloom that I wouldn't think of selling, and one I just bought and haven't even had the chance to shoot it much or dress it up. ;)

[Gewehr98]

I had a couple Series 80 Colts. One was a simple 1991A1 5", and the second was that cute little Officer's ACP model, the plain-vanilla 1991A1 Compact. Bad news, both of them. The former started shearing the barrel locking lugs almost immediately. It received a new fitted Kart barrel and bushing, a Videcki trigger, Ed Brown lockwork, and beavertail grip safety, since I bought it to become my IPSC gun. The latter was breaking the link, and went back to Colt's a couple times under warranty. I didn't even bother to shoot the little gun after it came back the last time. I sold it, and the 5" gun, and used the money to buy several Norinco 1911A1's. I didn't get hysterical, I chalked it up to a bad time in Colt's corporate history, much like Harley's AMF days. My pre-'94 Colt Competition HBAR AR went back to Colt, too, with a front sight tower pointing off to the northeast so far that all the rear sight windage in the world wasn't gonna make it shoot straight. I'm a sucker for punishment, I guess. I still have the Norincos, and I replaced the 1991A1 Compact with a Caspian Officer's ACP. Couldn't be happier. I'm sure Colt's has come around again in QC, but I've no real desire to buy their products now. Fool me once, and all that stuff...

Or is that an example of tough guy anti-Colt hysterics? :(

[BluesBear]

I feel compelled to comment on a few inaccuracies.

AT this time, bullseye and other competition shooters routinely have slide to frame play reduced by squeezing slides and peening frame rails down. ONLY because gunrag writers were telling everyone that this was the ONLY way to get a 45 to shoot accurately. As a result everyone with a vise mounted to their workbench became "pisstillsmiths". This was also a time when the market was flooded with used and abused GI surplus 45s at rock bottom prices. Instead of replacing the worn out parts with new ones, chucking it in a vise was the "fad". It was another one of those sounds-good-on-paper ideas. Once people woke up and realized that there was a whole lot more involved in accuracy than frame to slide fit vising the slide quickly fell from grace.

The "Series 70" collet bushing...they invented a new one with springy fingers that engaged the slide and supported the part that the barrel rides in,The fingers contacted the barrel NOT the slide.
The "part the barrel rides in" IS the bushing.
And Colt did NOT "invent" it. It's NOT an original Colt idea.
Several custom builders were already producing and singing the praises of the "fingered" bushing. At least one even produced them for Commander length guns, something Colt NEVER did. What Colt did do that set them apart was to provide a tapered barrel so at least you could dismount the pistol without tools. It was another one of those sounds-good-on-paper ideas.
Unfortunately ALL of the fingered bushing players eventually realized that it was almost impossible to keep equal tension on all fingers and that durability wasn't consistant. However I have seen more than a few original Mark IV Series 70 Government models that still are going strong with their original barrels and bushings. I personally owned several that never had any problems and only one that did.

OK first a 1911 has to fall 21 feet straight on its muzzle for the firing pin to hit the primer hard enough to MAYBE set it off. POPPYCOCK! In what comic book did you learn this factoid?

I have PERSONALLY WITNESSED it happen from armpit height. (Can you say Galco shoulder holster.) Do a search for my thread on this "impossibility". And if dropped in condition two it is almost a foregone conclusion.
Titanium firing pins? Extra heavy firing pin springs? Both of those often create more problems than they cure.
Firing pin safety tied to the grip safety? Dropping a gun on it's muzzle can depress the grip safety.
Gritty trigger pull? Possibly but not because of the Series 80 Safety. I have had MANY people comment that I must have removed my Series 80 parts. NOPE all still intact. Have you heard all of the good comments on the SIG Granite Series trigger pulls. Guess what. SERIES 80 all the way. A Sig slide will even work on a Colt frame and vice versa. (Yeppers, Tried it. Done it.)
Heard complaints on the K.I.M.ber Schwartz Safety? It's been mentioned in several threads. And it's called a Schwartz Safety because that's what Colt called it before they DUMPED the idea 60 years ago.


Now as to the "plastic" parts issue... Yes Colt still uses Nylon for the mainspring housing. BIG WHOOP! Have you EVER heard of one going bad? I haven't. Has anyone else? I only replaced mine because I replace ALL arched housings with flat ones. And on two occasions I replaced nylon arched ones with nylon flat ones and was completely happy.

Has anyone ever heard of a problem with the now discontinued nylon triggers? I haven't. The only reason I replaced mine was because I replace ALL long triggers with short ones.

I have no problem selling or trading away every single flat nylon housing and long nylon trigger I can get my hands on.



Now it's all well and good to prefer another brand. But if you're going to badmouth something and try to influence someone elses opinions at least get your fact straights. Hells Bells™ just find some facts.

[richyoung]

"Since I was alive and actively shooting during the time periods,"


How many guns were you building? Did Moses and the Pharoh shoot >38 Super or .45 ACP?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I feel compelled to comment on a few inaccuracies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by richyoung
AT this time, bullseye and other competition shooters routinely have slide to frame play reduced by squeezing slides and peening frame rails down.

ONLY because gunrag writers were telling everyone that this was the ONLY way to get a 45 to shoot accurately. "

Didn't say WHY, just said it was so,..and you agreed - so where is the inaccuracy?

"As a result everyone with a vise mounted to their workbench became "pisstillsmiths". This was also a time when the market was flooded with used and abused GI surplus 45s at rock bottom prices. Instead of replacing the worn out parts with new ones, chucking it in a vise was the "fad". It was another one of those sounds-good-on-paper ideas. Once people woke up and realized that there was a whole lot more involved in accuracy than frame to slide fit vising the slide quickly fell from grace."


??? :confused: That would be news to Eagle Arms and Cache Creek Fly Shop in my home town of Lawton, Ok, both of whom are happily building carry and competition guns by...squeezing slides and peening rails. Today. In the 21st century. (When they don't buy a pre-fitted slide and frame from Caspian. :evil: ) And they don't seem to be the only ones, as all the online 1911 smith's web sights feature something along the lines of "Tighten frame to slide fit - $200".(This very process built the best gun I will ever own with a COLT slide, no less. Shot 1.5" groups with anything at 25 yards off of sandbags before it was stolen. Stupid me, it might have shot one hole groups if I hadn't had the slide tightened.


Quote:
Originally Posted by richyoung
The "Series 70" collet bushing...they invented a new one with springy fingers that engaged the slide and supported the part that the barrel rides in,

"The fingers contacted the barrel NOT the slide."

My bad - I haven't seen one in 13 years - round these parts that potential killer is the first part to hit the scrap heap, and I've been avoiding them like a vampire ducks daylight.

"The "part the barrel rides in" IS the bushing."

Tha barrel goes in one part, and the other part ties the whole mess to the slide. One part - "bushing" that is the interface between two other parts, slide and barrel.

"And Colt did NOT "invent" it. It's NOT an original Colt idea."

Then Colt is a DOUBLE IDIOT - I'm sure their in-house engineers could have come up with something just as bad. However, I wil conceed that I was in error, and more correctly should have stated "jumped on the rather shacky bandwagon of" rather than "invented" - thanks for correcting me.


"It was another one of those sounds-good-on-paper ideas.
Unfortunately ALL of the fingered bushing players eventually realized that it was almost impossible to keep equal tension on all fingers and that durability wasn't consistant. However I have seen more than a few original Mark IV Series 70 Government models that still are going strong with their original barrels and bushings. I personally owned several that never had any problems and only one that did."

In a carry gun that will get you killed. How many SOLID bushing guns have you had quit on you due to bushing failure, (not improper fit, but FAILURE) in your shooting career? This is a "Why do people have a problem with Colt" thread, remember? The collet bushing IS one of the reasons - again, I fail to see the "inaccuracies" you are talking about, (unless you are talking about the group size out of a collet-bushing gun...).


Quote:
Originally Posted by richyoung
OK first a 1911 has to fall 21 feet straight on its muzzle for the firing pin to hit the primer hard enough to MAYBE set it off.

"POPPYCOCK! In what comic book did you learn this factoid?"

U.S.Army drop tests, if I recall correctly. From about the time they were considering the -A1 mods (BEFORE they did their manuals in comic book form, BTW!)

"I have PERSONALLY WITNESSED it happen from armpit height."

From "American Hangunner", on the FBI 1911 tests:
"During the drop test, guns were dropped onto concrete from a height of 4 feet, landing three times on the muzzle and three times on the butt. The throw test was conducted at 15 feet with the guns heaved onto concrete, twice on the left side and twice on the right. "The guns were pretty beat up after that," Williams deadpanned. However, none of the primed empty cases in the chambers popped and none of the magazines came loose, so it was on to the "field suitability" test."

4 feet is about armpit height for most folks - did you see Charles Barkley drop his piece? :neener: Or perhaps someone had one of them ther "pisslsmiff" trigger jobs and no half-cock notch on the one that was dropped?



". And if dropped in condition two it is almost a foregone conclusion."

That's why you should carry cocked and locked...

"Titanium firing pins? Extra heavy firing pin springs? Both of those often create more problems than they cure."

...and NOBODY has had a Series 80 firing pin stay locked because of unburned powder and crud tying up the plunger, or the plunger sticking down and locking up the gun, or light fining pin strikes, (or worse yet, a firing pin sticking out of the breechface) due to the extra powder and crud that gets into the firing pin tunnel thru the S-80 plunger, or failure of the plunger to re-lock the firing pin if you lower the hammer on a live round?

"Firing pin safety tied to the grip safety? Dropping a gun on it's muzzle can depress the grip safety."

And exactly how high that would have to be would depend on the sear spring and the grip safety in question - how high do you reckon that is?

"Gritty trigger pull? Possibly but not because of the Series 80 Safety."

Then who, pray tell, is buying al those block-off adapters? Slightly out-of-spec series 80 parts CAN make for a lousy trigger pull, and that is one of the reasons people don't like Colt - (thread topic, remember?)

" I have had MANY people comment that I must have removed my Series 80 parts. NOPE all still intact."

I'm happy you have a good one - not everone is so fortunate. :)

" Have you heard all of the good comments on the SIG Granite Series trigger pulls. Guess what. SERIES 80 all the way. A Sig slide will even work on a Colt frame and vice versa. (Yeppers, Tried it. Done it.)"

I have no doubt in SIG's ability to execute a Colt solution to a non-existent problem at a far higher standard of quality.

"Heard complaints on the K.I.M.ber Schwartz Safety? It's been mentioned in several threads. And it's called a Schwartz Safety because that's what Colt called it before they DUMPED the idea 60 years ago."

Speaking of "inaccuracies", Colt didn't "dump" the Schwartz safety - they stopped making it because they shifted to war time production, and the government didn't order its pistols with it. Post-war - Colt apparently decided to base their commercial models on the war-time production, (maybe had a lot of parts left over??), and duidn't re-introduce it. Colt no more "dumped" the Schwarts thant they "dumped" the SAA - they just didn't resume production of this option, among many more things, post-war.


"Now as to the "plastic" parts issue... Yes Colt still uses Nylon for the mainspring housing. BIG WHOOP! Have you EVER heard of one going bad? I haven't. Has anyone else? I only replaced mine because I replace ALL arched housings with flat ones. And on two occasions I replaced nylon arched ones with nylon flat ones and was completely happy."

Are you betting your life on these guns, or are they fancy toys for competition? Do as you will, but I don't trust NYLON for automotive timing gears OR mission-critical components on a defensive pistol - many others feel the same way and thats ONE OF THE REaSONS TO DISLIKE COLT! (That old "Thread topic" thingy again....)


"I have no problem selling or trading away every single flat nylon housing and long nylon trigger I can get my hands on."

...and pawn shops have no problem selling every Raven, Jennings, and Hi-Point they get in - doesn't make them good.


"Now it's all well and good to prefer another brand. But if you're going to badmouth something and try to influence someone elses opinions..."

not bad-mouthing - answering the question posed in the first post of this thread - "Why do some people have a problem with Colt?" I defy you to quote me anywhere saying NOT to buy a Colt - in fact I have repeatedly lamented the theft of my previous 1911, which except for the frame , grips, and recoil system, was all Colt. All I have done is list the greivances.

" at least get your fact straights. Hells Bells™ just find some facts."

Everything I said is a fact, and a reason SOME PEOPLE, (obviously not you), dislike Colt, also facts. Your OPINION is such dislike is unmerited. :rolleyes:


(edited to stay closer to the "High Road")

[mrhuckins]

The only colt handgun I ever fired was the old .45's that the military issued as standard a sidearm about 10 years ago. I was truly afraid for my life if I ever had to use one of these "weapons" to defend myself. I was never able to hit a man sized target at even 25 yards. You could hold the gun up next to your ear, and shake it and hear the barrel rolling around in there like a maraca. Perhaps this is the result of having thousands and thousands of rounds put through the weapon, but my experience was bad enough that I never cared to fire or own another colt weapon of any kind.

[larry starling]

My advice to all the colt hater's, dont buy them keep purchasing your mim filled copys and leave the pony's for us colt fan's! That might help the people in the area's were there seem to be no colts available. As for me thats less competition trying to buy the guns im looking for! Right now under General keyes colt is producing some of the finest guns they have ever made! :neener:

[Peter M. Eick]

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/colts2.jpg

Some of us still like them for what they are. Good reliable guns that just need a bit more TLC then most of the rest. BY the way, the Dick special now has Pachmyers like the rest of them.

The gun I have shot the most is in the center. My little diamondback has over 45,000 rnds fired out of it. Not much to complain about there. Hardly a super delicate gun, but it has had a few repairs.

I have to admit that I collect S&W Pre-numbered N frames though. Not Colts.

[gpo1956]

Just today I looked at, in my area of a population of less than 25,00, a blued 1911, a blued XSE, a stainless XSE and an XSE Light weight commander. The kicker was the 1991 was $749, the blued XSE ws $980, the stainless XSE was $1010 and the XSE Lightweight Commander was $999. I guess the Commander was REALLY a bargain!! You ask why Colts are so hard to find and so popular? I say its because so many of you guys will blindly pay these kinds of prices just because "If its not a Colt, its only a copy". Or if it has a Horsey on it it must be worth it. Don't get me wrong, Colt is making some very good 1911s right now. Just insanely overpriced. But I guess thats progress! Twenty or thirty years ago they were not nearly this quality overall, but were still way overpriced.

[ulflyer]

Mrhuckins, you must have had a well worn one. I have a 1943 box stock, original well used Rem-Rand, and it will give you a 3-4 inch group at 20 yards. If I wanted to carry a gun that big, I'd trust it as much as either of my newer 1911's.

[Tman]

I wonder if anyone from Colt is following this thread (I lot of good companies keep their ear to the ground and follow bulletin boards, etc and hear what their customers have to say). :confused:

[HankB]

(I lot of good companies keep their ear to the ground and follow bulletin boards, etc and hear what their customers have to say)Not to hijack a COLT thread, but . . . .if only this were true! Then S&W would be making pinned & recessed revolvers again with real steel (not MIM) internals, the firing pins would be on the hammers again, and there would be NO @!#**! internal locks! ;)

[vanfunk]

Just a data point...
I've had nothing but success with Colt products, from the dozen-or-so 1911's, to the Detective Special, to the 3 AR-15's I have. I feel Colt AR-15's are still the best available, for reasons not always obvious but always important (long story). Given the choice, I will always choose a Colt 1911 over a similarly priced, similarly configured competitor. Colt 1911's also have that certain "je ne c'est pas" (excuse my French) that lends a certain delight to ownership that I am willing to pay a modest premium for. Springfields, Kimbers, etc. just don't "do it" for me, although I have owned decent representations of the breed made by those manufacturers. I wouldn't claim that Colt 1911's are The Best out there, but they are the best for me.
vanfunk

[DevLcL]

On the Colt website the military section (http://www.colt.com/mil/home.asp) has a rather catchy little jingle, while the commercial section (http://www.colt.com/CMCI/home.asp) has nothing! This is an outrage. :)