Any Mormons here? How do explain yourselves?


PDA






Hellbore
April 7, 2005, 04:16 AM
I'm Mormon but most of my Mormon friends are anti-gun. As far as I have ever heard, our church says NOTHING about guns. They are just anti-gun for lack of exposure and maybe out of ignorance, I don't think being a Mormon has anything to do with it.

Anyone here Mormon who can help me convince them I'm not an evil would-be murderer just because I want to be able to protect my own life?

The kind of arguments I get from my fellow Mormons are:

1. If you really have faith, God will protect you, don't trust in the arm of the flesh, trust God to protect you.

2. Don't kill someone in self-defense, that's murder! How could you live with yourself? Better to die than to be a murderer!

3. Why carry a gun around at all times? For example, I know a guy who is Mormon who carries at church. A fellow Mormon says "you are crazy, what are you going to do, shoot the Bishop? Why would you ever need a gun in church?"

4. It is a lose-lose situation... Even if you do use a gun to defend yourself or others, you are just as bad as the would-be attacker.

5. If I point out to them that the Church does not consider it to be murder when you go to war and shoot someone. When I say this, they always say "Well you aren't going to WAR, you just want to carry a gun around for no reason! It's different!"

These arguments are ridiculous to me, and I do my best to refute them, but does anyone here have any suggestions? Any statements made by Church officials? Any scripture on these topics?

Another thing that irks me is, Mormons believe that the Constitution was an inspired document, that the people who wrote it were under the inspiration of God. Almost like it's scripture. They also believe that God wants them to respect the laws of the land. However, when I point out that our laws say self-defense killing isn't murder, and that we have the 2nd ammendment, they always seem to backpedal. They say "well the 2nd ammendment isn't valid in today's world" or they say "Well just because the government says it isn't murder doesn't mean God doesn't think it is murder". Well excuse me, but they KNOW they are supposed to live by the laws of the land! Why would God tell them to do that, then punish them for it? Also, didn't I just hear how inspired the Constitution is supposed to be? Oh, but only some of it? The Ammendments don't count or something? Never mind that it was DESIGNED to be ammended...

There are also countless scriptures in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon about people defending themselves with deadly force. There have been a whole lot of deaths inflicted in the name of God through war.

Also, in the history of the Mormon church there are examples. There have been Mormon posses. The Mormon church got together all their able men and sent them to join the Army. One of the Mormon prophets and leader of the Church, the famous Brigham Young, had an especially famous gun-slinging body guard named Porter Rockwell. Look him up, interesting guy.

The man who established the Church, Joseph Smith, also had armed bodyguards. These men who plaid very important roles in the early Church obviously believed in the right to defend their own lives with deadly force.

Anyways... I partly wanted to rant, and I partly wanted to see what any Mormons here have to say about this topic.

Anyway, I don't think these Mormons are anti-gun because of logic or any scriptures that tell them to be so. I think it is simply a lack of exposure to guns and just ignorance about our constitution and the history of their own Church. I have a hard time understanding how any Mormon can be anti-gun.

If you enjoyed reading about "Any Mormons here? How do explain yourselves?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
c_yeager
April 7, 2005, 05:11 AM
Im not a Mormon, but I seem to remember that Mormon history is rife with examples in which weapons were necessary in the defense of the faith. I can't think of a religion that has depended on personal armament in modern history more than the Mormons. Im quite suprised that there are any antigun Mormons out there.

MaterDei
April 7, 2005, 07:11 AM
You might not agree with this but it seems to me that you might be able to use it to justify your gun ownership.

“All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?... "I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the almighty, but who are now angels to the devil... I have known a great many men who left this church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them, the wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbids this principle's being in full force, but the time will come when the law of god will be in full force."
-Sermon by Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, Feb. 8, 1857, printed in the Deseret News, Feb. 18, 1857; also reprinted in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pp. 219-220

Preacherman
April 7, 2005, 07:30 AM
There's a Mormon pro-RKBA discussion board, similar to THR, called Zion's Camp. You'll find it here (http://p198.ezboard.com/bzionscamp). I'm sure it will help a lot.

critter
April 7, 2005, 07:52 AM
It sounds like to me that all the anti-gun arguments you have listed have very little to do with Mormonism. Those are the same old tired arguments that all anti's use.

Standard pro-gun arguments will work there as well as anywhere else and you must remember that most of those anti's have their minds made up and you are under a big load if you think you can change them.

Good luck!

SamlautRanger
April 7, 2005, 08:24 AM
Maybe you should contact George Hill, the Mad Ogre, he is a Mormom and has enough guns to start his own little militia and makes Rush Limbaugh look like a liberal! :neener:

(from reading his blog and post seems like a good man and a fellow 11 bang bang vet)

Also, from my Special Forces days, we had a pretty large number of Mormons there. Matter of fact when the 5th Bn, 19th Special Forces group from Utah deployed to Afghanistan they were called the "Stormen Mormons'' . had a couple A-teams that were 75%-100% Mormon.

redneck2
April 7, 2005, 08:28 AM
the line "things are different today". If that's true, then it applies to the whole document written at that time. If it's different for select parts, it's different for all of it. Toss the whole thing.

What that line really means is "it ought to be changed to reflect my values, or at least I have to change it in my mind to reflect my current values".

The original writer was obviously wrong, and I'm smarter than they were. :rolleyes:

The Ten Commandments were written before the Hebrews crossed into Israel. When they crossed over, God commanded them to kill every person there. If God cannot sin, yet commanded the killing of those there, how can it be a sin?

Also, God does not protect you. The Free Will thing. He lets stuff play out and judges later. For the "God protects me guys, say a big prayer, then dive head first off a 10 story building. We'll discuss our relative points at the bottom

I respect your right to choose any religion you like.


Post edited by moderator.

Navy joe
April 7, 2005, 08:36 AM
John Moses Browning was a Mormon, enough said! He learned guns because his dad fixed/made guns in order to protect the early Mormons. If not for guns and active self defense in the 19th century there would probably be no Mormons today. Are they really that ignorant of history?

Checkman
April 7, 2005, 09:14 AM
I'm not a Mormon, but I grew up in Eastern Idaho where they are the majority - or at least they used to be. Anyway most of my friends were mormons as were a couple of girlfriends. I don't recall ever running into an anti-gun Mormon. Ever. Some of the biggest shooters I've had contact with were LDS. Exactly where do you live? Or are they the "Next Generation" in which case there is no hope for anybody because I always figured the Mormons would be the last to go. If they're going it's all over. :(

whm1974
April 7, 2005, 09:17 AM
John Moses Browning was a Mormon, enough said! He learned guns because his dad fixed/made guns in order to protect the early Mormons. If not for guns and active self defense in the 19th century there would probably be no Mormons today. Are they really that ignorant of history?

A lot of people are ignorant of thier relegion's history. Most christerns are not not aware that Jesus told his discples to buy a sword if they didn't have one.

-Bill

dave3006
April 7, 2005, 09:19 AM
Post deleted by moderator.

CentralTexas
April 7, 2005, 09:31 AM
-

boofus
April 7, 2005, 09:58 AM
Isn't the Mormon church offering a $1 million reward for the return of John Moses Browning's serial #1 1919 machinegun? It was stolen from a museum a while back.

JamisJockey
April 7, 2005, 10:07 AM
I'm not a mo, but I live in Utah and am surrounded by them. Most here are defintely not anti gun. Alot of them hunt, and own guns for thier little end of the world scenerio. The 6th of april has come and gone again, by the way, with no end of the world in sight.

halvey
April 7, 2005, 10:10 AM
Ok, this is coming from a pretty devout Christian:

Like many religions, they want control over you. They want to make you believe the church is in control and you need to listen to the church. Being armed means taking personal responsibility upon yourself. This goes against the grain of a lot of churches.

Their argument is not really God will protect you, but the CHURCH will protect you.

I'll use my church as an example. They are big on tithing (giving 10% to the church) or like they say (10% to God). Tithing is an Old Testament rule among many plucked out and used for the benefit of the church. I don't necessarily disagree with giving 10%, but saying we are biblically bound to do so is a pure lie. If tithing is a requirement, then so are all the other "rules" we totally ignore in the Old Testament.

hartzpad
April 7, 2005, 10:11 AM
Hellbore, I think you need to either do some more research or find some different friends. I am Mormon, raised in SF Bay Area with guns and now live in Utah and own guns. I don't know many mormons that are anti-gun, in fact we just had a world General Conference where all mormons listen to speakers from the church via satelite and I can count 3 or 4 stories told last weekend by leaders of the church that involved guns and hunting. There is a large percentage of gun owners here and many have CCW permits. My CCW instructor was mormon. The school I attend (BYU) does not permit CCW on campus, but it's a private university, so it can legally do that. I know lots of students that own guns and have gone shooting with a lot of them. I don't know of any doctrine that states that self-defense is murder, quite the contrary, I know of scriptural examples and counsel from leaders of the church that it is every man's duty to protect his family, even with his own life if necessary.

I could go on and on, but in the interest of time, I will stop.


Dave3006: do you still consider The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be a cult when we have almost 12 million members and have been established in over 130 countries and for 175 years? We are definitely Christians (hence the name of the church), but that is a discussion for another day and time.

hartzpad
April 7, 2005, 10:15 AM
JamisJockey - you have the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder-Day Saints confused with the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder-Day Saints, the FLDS church is the polygamist break-off church (in the 1800's) that is struggling to survive and they thought that April 6th was the end of the world or something. They are not mormons.

PvtPyle
April 7, 2005, 10:23 AM
Actually 5th Bn in in Colorado, always has been. They also did not go the A-stan with us, it was 2nd Bn from Washington. Here in Utah it is 1st Bn and the BSC. We were called lots of things depending on where you were. The Stormin Mormons to The Saints and Sinners.

Come on over to Zions and talk to some of the Brothers there. You will not find a more devout and heavily armed group of Saints around. But you have been given some very sound advice here. These are not Mormon agueements, these are typical anti-gun agrueements. We could list lots of counters to their pathetic whinning and hand ringing, but why bother? You will not convert these types of people.

If I said anything I would simply say to them, "Remember your Church history. We would have been wiped out by federal troops if it weren't for Mormons with guns (and the stones to use them-this part is optional)."

jefnvk
April 7, 2005, 10:35 AM
Im quite suprised that there are any antigun Mormons out there.

The same could be said of Jews, but there are.

yorec
April 7, 2005, 11:36 AM
One good story to bring up is Joseph Smith's death... He fired three rounds from a cap and ball revolver into the door at Cathidge in an attempt to what? It was clearly self defense. Remind them of that.

Seems to me what you're describing is Soccer mom attitude. Seen a lot of that. Not relevant any more than the semi-religious bits of advice on this board... Just a matter of ignorance. Educate 'em if you can, but don't despair.

Sharps Shooter
April 7, 2005, 11:42 AM
I'm with Checkman. I'm not Mormon, but I've lived in Eastern Idaho for 32 years and they're definitely the majority here. I've never heard of them being anti-gun bigots before, in fact, a few years ago I was hunting with my Mormon Bishop friend and his son, when his son shot his first deer. I also sold that same friend a .357 Magnum revolver.
Where do you live? I'm fairly certain Utah even has CCW reciprocity with Idaho and Utah is sure enough a Mormon run state.
By the way - have you tried any of those beers from that micro-brewery down there in Provo, Utah? The "Polygamy Porter" is pretty good if you like dark beer. The billboard advertisements for it ask the question - "Why have just one?" or say -"Take one home to the wives."

Snake Eyes
April 7, 2005, 12:04 PM
My understanding is that the LDS Church councils members to stockpile tobacco and alcohol, to be used for bartering once the SHTF.

If you don't have any guns, how are you going to keep (less principled) sinners like me out of your stockpiles??

Because you know darn well I aint goin' to TEOTWAWKI without a smoke and a drink!

hartzpad
April 7, 2005, 12:07 PM
Snakeyes, are you being serious? No wonder people have extreme misconceptions of Mormons when people make up silly stories like your own. If you are serious, please show me a source because I have never heard of such things. If you are just joking, funny stuff.

12 Volt Man
April 7, 2005, 12:39 PM
As a Gun Totin' Mormon (who needs to repent). I can tell you that there are a great number of Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who believe in our 2nd Ammendment Rights. Notice the name of the Church contains the name "Jesus Christ" right in it. Anyone who says that Mormon's aren't Christian has not studied the teachings of the Church. That is all that needs to be said about that.

We had a get together last year with a bunch of Utah High Road Members. You can bet that the majority of those who were there were Mormons. You should have seen the magnificent collection of firearms that were shot that day. The only thing remotely "anti" that I heard from the leaders of the Church was discussed here at length a year or two ago. There was some dumbass (actually in the town where I grew up) who had his CCW at church. He took it out to show his buddies and had an AD. If I remember right, he actually shot himself. Like with many things when somebody does something stupid, it generates a rule that everyone then has to follow. The leaders of the Church then asked that permit holders not carry their guns at church. To some, an anti gun stance. To others, more of a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of thing. It is inevitable that one day some freak will come into a church and start shooting and taking people out. I for one hope that there are a couple of permit holders that can "save the day" so to speak.

Most of my neighbors are more devout members of the church than I. They all go to church every Sunday, pay their tithing, etc...... They don't own guns. They might have their dad's hunting rifle lying around, but none of them fancy it as a hobby like I do. Funny thing is, they all know I have a supply of guns and ammo. More than one person has told me that if the SHTF, they are heading over to my house. :)

There is also one thing that has always made me think. I don't know of any other religion that gets "picked on" so much as the Mormon Church. You never hear, "watch out for those 7th Day Adventist's, they aren't Christian", or "Did you know that Catholics have horns", or even "Have you read this book?, It tells you why the Church of Scientology is wrong." There is more anti-Mormon stuff out there that there is for any other religion. The more I hear it or see this sort of thing, it makes me think they they may be the ones that have it right. I do know one thing. Last summer my neighbor and I were working on his yard. We had 15 pallets of sod just dropped of and we were set to spend the whole day laying sod in his yard. Next thing you know 12 or 13 guys from the local Mormon church show up out of nowhere. We had that sod done in two hours. That is hard to beat.

You need to know at least this much. The Mormons (Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) are good people, they are with us on Pro-2A rights.

thatguy
April 7, 2005, 12:48 PM
I lived in Utah for 5 years and it was the most gun friendly state I have experienced. Everyone owned guns and nobody (except the Univ. of Utah Adm.) got upset at the sight of guns.

I was told that LDS doctrine tells its members to be prepared to defend home, family and Church and many took that as a directive to be armed.

Preacherman
April 7, 2005, 12:48 PM
Folks, I've already had to edit two posts in this thread, and I'm FED UP! You should know better by now than to "dis" anyone's beliefs. Please read the Forum Rules if in any doubt.

Any further posts being negative about the Mormon (or any other) Church and the offenders WILL be banned at once, without further warning or notice.

:fire: :cuss: :banghead:

JamisJockey
April 7, 2005, 12:49 PM
Alot of my friends are Mormon. Most of my shooting circle are Mormon. I've yet to meet one that was anti-gun. Obviously students of Mormon history.

SLCDave
April 7, 2005, 12:50 PM
Hartzpad, I am a Mormon, and I have heard of other Mormons doing that, but never heard any religious leaders counselling anyone to do it. I've read books on preparing for TEOTWAWKI, and they say to stock up on it, even if you don't use it yourself, just for that purpose.

Any member of the LDS church that is anti-gun hasn't studied the history of their church very well. On more than one occasion, they were driven out of their homes and towns. What event preceeded them being driven out? The local government/militia rounding up their guns. Soon after, the roofs would be ripped off homes, barns burned, livestock run off, and houses leveled. Men, women and children were driven across the state line. Any "Mormon" that would support the cause of gun grabbing needs to stay awake in church and crack open a couple of the "History of the church" books so many church members have collecting dust on their shelves.

mete
April 7, 2005, 01:10 PM
:rolleyes:

hartzpad
April 7, 2005, 01:11 PM
Amen (pun intended) to what 12 Volt Man said. Very well explained. Let me know of any future THR shoots in Utah, I'll bring all of my guns as well.

fredcwdoc
April 7, 2005, 01:17 PM
I'm not Mormon but I spend a couple of weeks in Utah every summer with a lot of friends who are Mormons. One of the highlights is spending time out shooting in the mountains there. I think it's like anything else, you have some who like firearms and some who don't. I don't think it's in any Mormon teaching to be anti. One thing I have noticed is that the younger generation does not shoot as much as the crowd I hang out with (45-50) but that is not just Utah. I find that everywhere I go.

Snake Eyes
April 7, 2005, 01:18 PM
hartzpad--

Was I being serious? Sort of.

I have been told, by more than one person, about the "stockpiles". I have never spoken to a Mormon that did not vehemently deny the existence of both the stockpiles and any sort of edict from the church.

What do *I* believe? Hmmm.....not sure. I think I haven't made up my mind, and I view both sides with healthy doses of skepticism.

I will tell you this: I can walk into pretty much any Catholic, Protestant, Baptist or Methodist church; any mosque or temple, and most Indian lodges and have a look around, meet and greet the clergy or holy men (and women) and generally be welcomed and accepted.

I tried that once at a Mormon church and they told me I had to be a member and asked me to leave. Forcefully. Whatcha all hidin'?? And if you're not hiding anything, why all the secrecy? (You see my point here, don't you?)

To get this back on topic....None of the Mormon friends I've ever had, had a problem with guns. Just the smokin' and drinkin'!

Bear Gulch
April 7, 2005, 01:32 PM
Porter Rockwell, would be spinning in his grave if we were anti gun. Yes, I am LDS as are most of my friends. I know of very few anti gun Mormons.

BTW Joseph Smith said (Per Truman G. Madsen) "Any man who would not defend his family is a coward, and a bastard!"

The Church has never been antigun in its official teachings. Our experiences in Misouri (and other places) has shown that home preparedness probably should inlude some powder and ball.

Snake eyes, I stock coffee as a trade item, I hate the smell of smoke and don't want drunks around. BTW I also have ammo, hardware and extras of lots of items that might be handy should I need a spare or for trade for other things.

Stand_Watie
April 7, 2005, 01:34 PM
There is also one thing that has always made me think. I don't know of any other religion that gets "picked on" so much as the Mormon Church. You never hear, "watch out for those 7th Day Adventist's, they aren't Christian", or "Did you know that Catholics have horns", or even "Have you read this book?, It tells you why the Church of Scientology is wrong." There is more anti-Mormon stuff out there that there is for any other religion.

If you'd grown up in the Baptist churches I did you might have heard those things :D Seriously though, I'd say that Jehovah's Witnesses are pretty high up the list on the picked on religious identities. Just for the last couple years, Muslims in the US. And Jews in Europe historically.

Guns_and_Labs
April 7, 2005, 01:34 PM
I will tell you this: I can walk into pretty much any Catholic, Protestant, Baptist or Methodist church; any mosque or temple, and most Indian lodges and have a look around, meet and greet the clergy or holy men (and women) and generally be welcomed and accepted.

I tried that once at a Mormon church and they told me I had to be a member and asked me to leave. Forcefully. Whatcha all hidin'?? And if you're not hiding anything, why all the secrecy?

There are a whole bunch of secret societies cluttering up the Christian faiths, and it wasn't THAT long ago that Catholic sanctuaries were ceremonially closed for the communion sacrament, and only priests could fully partake. Secrets are common to most religions, I'm sure.

Also common to most religions is the desire by a few to push their own agendas, such as banning personal ownership of guns, and use an interpretation of their religious articles as their rationale.

To your Mormon (or Catholic or Baptist or...), I'd ask them to show you the document supporting their statement, that you interpret your religious instruction to the contrary. Martin Luther taught us that it's ok to think for yourself and ask questions of religious authority.

Reno
April 7, 2005, 01:40 PM
I'm not a Mormon but I've got family friends who are, and I've seen nothing to suggest any anti-gun inclinations from them. Particularly when we'd all go shoot or hunting.

I'm not a particularly religious person so I obviously am not completely eye to eye on some issues with Mormons, but I have to say, every single one I've met was a great person.

Guns_and_Labs
April 7, 2005, 01:40 PM
My understanding is that the LDS Church councils members to stockpile tobacco and alcohol, to be used for bartering once the SHTF.

Sound advice, though one can make alcohol pretty easily. Better to stockpile tobacco (I don't smoke, but understand those that do are willing to pay handsomely for the last cigarette around) and ammo (what can I get for two hundred rounds of .35 Whelen Improved?).

Bear Gulch
April 7, 2005, 01:49 PM
The Church does as us to keep a years supply of FOOD, clothing and where possible fuel. I would recommend the Provident living section of LDS.org for those of you who want factual info.

Snake eyes, I was joking before. I would find it very difficult to believe that you were kicked out of a Chapel as the builing has a sign on the outside saying "visitors welcome"! LDS temples are a different issue. Only members who meet rigorous behavioral standards can participate in the Temple ordinances. Many mormons cannot go, so don't feel too bad. Although the tale seems a bit exagerated!

whm1974
April 7, 2005, 01:53 PM
You know, I've heard the the Mormon Church encourges their members to stockpile a years supply of food in case of bad times.

My Landlord and his parents are Mormons. I ask his dad about the above, and he says it's true.

To me it's implyed that mormons are encourged to have guns as well. After all if someone is going to go though the trouble of stockpiling that much food, then he will be a fool not to have some means of protecting it.

-Bill

Bear Gulch
April 7, 2005, 02:00 PM
We wouldn't be just protecting our own stuff. I would imagine that in such a situation we would help LEOs, forage for food, Control looting, and lots of other things which would make having firearms handy. We would be protecting our communities, not acting selfishly.

Once again for the actual, real, direct from the source, not exagerated info got to LDS.org the provident living section. Are ya getting the idea that you might want factual info and not rumor?

BTW we also stock tools, chainsaws all the stuff that migh be handi in a natural disaster. My area has asked some of us to renew our Ham licenses so that we would have emergency comm with the rest of the state.

JamisJockey
April 7, 2005, 02:03 PM
tried that once at a Mormon church and they told me I had to be a member and asked me to leave. Forcefully. Whatcha all hidin'?? And if you're not hiding anything, why all the secrecy? (You see my point here, don't you?)


I'm not one, and I don't agree with them on almost anything, but this isn't the place for a religious debate, unless its about the correlation between a specific religion and how it pertains to the second amendment.

SLCDave
April 7, 2005, 02:04 PM
I will tell you this: I can walk into pretty much any Catholic, Protestant, Baptist or Methodist church; any mosque or temple, and most Indian lodges and have a look around, meet and greet the clergy or holy men (and women) and generally be welcomed and accepted.

I tried that once at a Mormon church and they told me I had to be a member and asked me to leave. Forcefully. Whatcha all hidin'?? And if you're not hiding anything, why all the secrecy? (You see my point here, don't you?)

I would only say that you can attend any Mormon CHURCH anytime, and you will be welcomed and accepted. The Temple is a different thing. Not even all members of our church can go the Temple. It is not an average worship service there, and ceremonies performed there are considered holy and sacred, not "secret". It's not a matter of hiding anything. Just as Paul metaphorically taught in the New Testament to offer the infant milk before meat, you can't expect to go to the Temple until you have a better understanding of what goes on there.

I have been turned away from a Mosque that followers of the Nation of Islam worshiped at because I am white. Whatever. Feel free to believe how, where and what you want, but afford me the same courtesy.

Correia
April 7, 2005, 02:09 PM
I'm Mormon, and a very active one at that. I would say that the majority of Mormons fall into a pro-gun, or fence sitter camp, with a vocal minority that are anti. Gee whiz, just like everybody else.

Snake Eyes, you would not have been kicked out of a regular chapel. There is just no way. (unless you were being a jerk and got kicked out, but that is different) Since we are a missionary church, we WANT people who are not LDS to come to our chapels. (You think we have 50,000+ full time volunteer missionarys just for kicks?) As was pointed out, our temples are different. But that is because they are sacred to us, and we don't let just anybody in there. In fact Mormons need to prepare themselves before they go. To us it is serious business, and we treat it that way. If that offends you so badly, I'm sorry.

And let me drift a little further off topic. Some of you on here know me, and have known me for a long time. Others don't know me from Adam. But many of you know some Mormon. Do you honestly honestly honestly honestly believe some of the crap that is spouted about us? Seriously? I mean some of the stuff out there borders on cartoonish super-villany. Give me a break.

Hellbore
April 7, 2005, 02:36 PM
Thanks for the replies, this is all great info. I feel embarassed that I did not know that Joseph Smith (who founded the Mormon church, for those who didn't know) tried to defend himself by returning fire with a revolver, before he was killed by the angry mob. I really like this account, I showed it to my anti-gun friend:

“A shower of musket balls were thrown up the stairway against the door of the prison in the second story, followed by many rapid footsteps…A ball was sent through the door, which passed between us, and showed that our enemies were desperados… Joseph Smith, Mr. Taylor, and myself sprang back to the front part of the room, and…Hyrum Smith retreated two-thirds across the chamber directly in front of and facing the door. A ball was sent through the door which hit Hyrum on the side of his nose, when he fell backwards, extended at length, without moving his feet. From the holes in his [clothing], it appears evident that a ball must have been thrown from without, through the window, which entered his back on the right side, and passing through, lodged against his watch…At the same instant the ball from the door entered his nose. As he struck the floor, he exclaimed emphatically, “I am a dead man.” Joseph looked towards him and responded, ‘Oh, dear brother Hyrum!’ and opening the door two or three inches with his left hand, discharged one barrel of a six shooter (pistol) at random in the entry…A ball [from a musket of one of the mob] grazed Hyrum’s breast, and entering his throat passed into his head, while other muskets were aimed at him and some balls hit him. Joseph continued snapping his revolver round the casing of the door into the space as before…, while Mr. Taylor with a walking stick stood by his side and knocked down the bayonets and muskets which were constantly discharged through the doorway…When the revolver failed, we had no more firearms, and expected an immediate rush of the mob, and the doorway full of muskets, half way in the room, and no hope but instant death from within. Mr. Taylor rushed into the window, which is some fifteen or twenty feet from the ground. When his body was nearly on balance, a ball from the door within entered his leg, and a ball from without struck his watch…in his vest pocket near the left breast, … the force of which ball threw him back on the floor, and he rolled under the bed which stood by his side… Joseph attempted, a the last resort, to leap [from] the same window from whence Mr. Taylor fell, when two balls pierced him from the door, and one entered his right breast from without, and he fell outward, exclaiming, ‘Oh Lord, my God!’ … He fell on his left side a dead man” (History of the Church, 6:619-20).

Anyways it is nice to have more info to back up 2nd ammendment beliefs agreeing with Mormon beliefs.

I think there are a lot of Mormons these days that I would almost call "New-age Mormons", who are out-of-touch with the Church's history and the overall spirit of freedom the Church espoused throughout its history. There seems to be a new crop of Mormons who are more touchy-feely in their views.... Anti-guns, anti-hunting, PETA members, and the like... Some of these types have been raised only on the pap of cutesy stories about sharing and loving one another and being kind and humble and merciful etc.etc. etc. These are all valid things to teach, however, a lot of these folks got the milk but not the meat... There is another side to this religion, the fighting spirit that tells us to defend our beliefs, and tells us to stand up in the face of adversity. Some of these folks who were raised in times of peace and prosperity in this country have a skewed and incomplete understanding of their Church's teachings. Life is not all happy dancing fairies and fluffy clouds, and the Church leaders of today and days gone by know this. It's just that some people aren't in touch with this side of religion at all.

Another example of the kind of ignorance that can exist in any religion where the members haven't studied their own religion enough: We have a big Church conference every year that all the members of the Mormon church all over the world view.

This same anti-gun guy said to me the other day, "It was cool how in the conference nobody mentioned the Pope dying. Of course they aren't gonna say anything about the false prophet who leads the Chuch of the Devil! (referring to the Catholic church)."

Well, this guy doesn't realize that the Mormon Church officially does not label the Catholic church as that "whore of all the earth" spoken of in the Bible. In times past some put out that label on the Catholic church, but the fact of the matter is, that is NOT something the Mormon church teaches or espouses. In fact, I had to make a fool of my friend and correct him... The current President of the Mormon church DID in fact mention the Pope's death. He had very kind words for the Pope. The first thing he spoke about, to commence the conference, was the Pope's death. My friend must not have been listening! Here is some of what the President of the Church, Gordon B. Hinckley, said:

"We join those throughout the world who mourn the passing of Pope John Paul II, an extraordinary man of faith, vision and intellect, whose courageous actions have touched the world in ways that will be felt for generations to come."

"The pope's voice remained firm in defense of freedom, family and Christianity. On matters of principle and morality he was uncompromising. On his compassion for the world's poor, he has been unwavering."

Correia
April 7, 2005, 02:51 PM
In giving more thought to this, this thread has drifted way OT. Hellbore, I'm glad your questions were answered, I'm going to lock this down now.

If you enjoyed reading about "Any Mormons here? How do explain yourselves?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!