[Handy]

Lately, I've become quite turned off to polymer framed auto pistols. At first, it was just price. You just aren't getting your monies worth when you compare a $600 Beretta and a $600 P99. The difference in frame production costs is an order of magnitude difference, but the savings are not being passed along.

But I've started wondering about the plastic itself. The Glock, especially, and most pistols of it's ilk, use the plastic in the receiver as a load bearing and shock absorbing member. As all plastics (and organic compounds in general) deteriorate over time and exposure to the environment, how long should we expect our USPs, Glocks, P99s, XDs to last? And when they do start to go, how catastrophic might the failure be?

I know most people are going to say they don't care. But I'm still pretty young and would like to keep shooting the guns I become enamoured with into my old age. I would also like my kids and their kids to have a crack at them.

I'm looking into buying a Mauser Broomhandle. By next week I may be shooting an automatic gun built 100 years ago. Springs and bore will have been replaced, the metal refinished, but all the major components are the same ones a German factory machined before the WWI. I doubt the same situation will apply to my Glock, someday. Replica grips are one thing, replica frames with molded in rails another.

Maybe new parts will be coming out of our Nanotechnology Toaster ovens by then?

[9x19]

Well, I've been told that GLock uses a proprietary blend of Nylon 6... and since there are still more than a few Reminton Nylon 66s floating around in serviceable condition after 40+ years... I imagine the Glocks, with reasonable care, will endure past your time on the planet...

:uhoh: Perhaps you worry too much! :uhoh:

:D

[Al Thompson]

Don't worry about it, just get a 1911.

[Handy]

A nylon stock on a .22 rifle isn't seeing any stress. It could lose 60% of its original strength and you'd never know it.


I don't worry, I have only the one cheap Glock.

[Rally Vincent]

I have a Nylon 66 also..........Tuff little .22's I must say.

Was my gramps until he gave it to my dad, then I just told my dad that the gun now belonged to me, he didn't argue.

It's got the Black Nylon Stock and chrome plated barrel and reciever. Very accurate. Love it!

[Tamara]

I don't worry, I have only the one cheap Glock.

Really?

I have two; although I'm not sure that 10mm and .45 will put undue stresses on the frames.

If they do, I can always fall back on my cheap alloy-framed SIGs and Berettas...

[9x19]

Handy,

Perhaps you've never removed the side plate on a Nylon 66... no metal inserts there, all the friction and stress of firing is borne only by the nylon... and they are still going strong... just as Glocks are sure to be long after we've become a gelatinous pool of worm food. :uhoh:

Perhaps you need a less stressful hobby... :D

:neener:

[Handy]

Am I to understand that you are comparing the mass of the Glock slide/barrel with 9mm recoil with the higher mass of the 66 barrel and mechanism with .22 recoil and concluding the same stresses exist?

Guns don't stress me out. I imagine high school physics stressed you out, though.:D


You could make a replacement stock out of paper maiche and it would work fine. I understand that some .22s even use wood!

Anyone volunteer to fire an auto pistol with a wood frame?

[Snowdog]

Hey, I like alliteration as much as the next guy, but... um... gats?

But to give my opinion, get any great plastic poodle popper and you shouldn't have any problems.
:D

My G19 changed my opinions on plastic.

[Boats]

With that legendary Glock concern for user safety, chances are you won't have descendants to worry about who will want the pistol that shot ole Grandpa!:evil:

[9x19]

Handy,

Nope didn't even have a problem getting my College degree in Physics... nor with my degree in Mathematics...

Tell me, oh Phyiscs Major... just how much stress the Glock slide hitting the locking block in recoil puts on the frame... oh and then tell me how much stress the Nylon 66 bolt, running on nylon rails (no steel here, bud) and being stopped in recoil by the rear nylon reciver wall (no steel locking block here bud) puts on its receiver.

Then you do the comparison... becasue, from here, it appears your mind is already closed to any fact-based comparisons that might challenge your notions, and besides I'm too tired to continue debating a comparison you seem ill-equipped (due to a lack of knowledge about the internal construction of the Nylon 66) to make.

Thansk for thinking of us tho'... :D

[Cal4D4]

Good point. Plastics deteriorate from exposure to ozone, ultraviolet light, heat and a general outgassing of the plasticiser. Usually the plastic gets brittle first. Find my 10mm G20 in the fallout shelter100 years from now and it will probably crumble like a toy with the first shot. Ionizing radiation probably would speed the whole thing up also. Wonder what solvents (MEK, Methyl Chloride, Xylene?) would turn it into a goo?
Bring me back like Harry Houdini and tell me how it works out. The great, great grandkids can laugh at the antiquity while they go out into the big tunnel to play with their phasers.

Wouldn't it be a hoot to come across a stash of a few crates of new in box Broomhandles packed in cosmoline in the back of a cave somewhere?

[gino]

Handy,

How dare you bring up a valid and well-thought out criticism of Glocks! Every once and a while this argument comes up and it degrades into name calling because the polymer crowd has no real counter-argument.

You're right, no one will be shooting todays Glocks 75 years from now. But all-steel guns might last 200 to 300 years (at least). Something to think about if you intend to pass down your guns to the younger generations...

My oldest gun is a Swedish Mauser that was made in 1917. A If Glock was made in 1917, it prob wouldn't still be shootable. To some of us this matters, to others it doesn't.

[MoNsTeR]

You just aren't getting your monies worth when you compare a $600 Beretta and a $600 P99. The difference in frame production costs is an order of magnitude difference, but the savings are not being passed along.
It never ceases to astound me that people believe that this matters.

The VALUE of a thing has absolutely no relationship to the COST of producing it. VALUE is, always has been, and always will be, subjective. Whether a Glock or a Walther or a Beretta or a Colt costs $.05 or $5000 to produce doesn't matter. What matters is how much you're willing to pay versus the number on the price tag.

[Master Blaster]

I have to agreee, I doubt the glock I own will be safe to fire in 75 years, but then neither will I.

Out of 30+ guns I own I only have 1 polymer framed gun. and a keltec p-32 which has a polymer grip, but does have an aluminum frame inside the grip.

Gimme good old steel anytime.

I do like my g-26 its light powerful and accurate its like the bic lighter of handguns.

Maybe 75 years from now if guns are still legal or arnt out moded by technology glock will be making replacement frames, or heck maybe Volquartsen will make an aluminum or steel replacement frame for the G-26:D

[Justin]

It seems to me that neither side can make the claim that 'yes, every polymer frame will crumble to dust by 2080' or 'No, polymer, like true love, is forever.'

Unless someone from the future comes back in time to let us know, there's really no way to know how long a particular material will last, though we can make educated guesses based on how older, but similar materials have held up.

The plastic in an HK or Glock isn't the same as the plastic used to make a Barbie doll in the 1950's, so just because some toys or other cheaply produced plastics have broken down isn't going to offer a true reflection as to whether an industrial grade polymer will/won't break down.

I'm sure this has been studied by the manufacturers, though.

[Gunner45]

I don't own a plastic,....oops sorry Polymer gun.



Gunner45:D

[Tom B]

Our government (yes even Shrub!) will see to it you nor your children will be shooting ANY GUNS 75 years from now! As a matter of fact if you get one that will last for 15 years I feel you will be quite safe in not wearing it out! ;)

[JShirley]

Plastic takes less maintenance than metal.

Plastic is lighter than metal.

I seem to keep hearing about how these great steel firearms- that have been preserved and sheltered- will be useable in the future, while those horrible plastic guns that have been exposed to the elements and radiation for 75 years will not?

Apples to apples, folks.

[Handy]

Don't quite follow, Shirley. Are you saying the plastic will last longer, and all the steel components of the Glock will rust away?

By the way, an awful lot of old firearms were not babied. They were refinished, though.

[BevrFevr]

What I would suggest is that someone contact somebody who really knows about the physical properties of firearms related materials and get them to comment.

I can find weakness in everything so why don't we compile a list of the weaknesses of all current materials?

Plastics
Steel and Stainless steel
non ferrous metals
carbon fiber
titanium and space age alloys

I'm sure I have forgot some. Solvents hurt some and help others. Oxygen harms all things. Heat is more or less of a problem. Vibration anyone? Water, Acid, salt? Pressure or whatever.

Hey maybe Mr Physics degree can help. I'm just an educated layman so I will be of no help other than fueling the fire. :fire:

-bevr

[9x19]

BevrFevr,

I can't help, because they didn't cover "Prying the lid off a closed mind." in my course of study... I'm quite sure that most of us will crumble to dust before Glock's polymer-frames... Convincing y'all... is NOT in my job description. :rolleyes:

Perhaps I should have taken Psychology instead... a science which is no doubt just as solid as most of these arguments. :scrutiny:

Here, you dropped your spoon... :evil:

[Handy]

9x19,

We know the Glock and other plastic pistols do change shape considerably during firing. Just so we're clear, you're saying that the nylon components of the Model 66 visibly bend and deform every time .22lr goes bang?

[DeltaElite]

"The wheel won't last, it's just round and rolls away. What a stupid idea."
"Television? Who's gonna watch that?"
"The Internet? That's not gonna last."
"New Coke, what a great idea!"

The above four sentiments have also been said by the anti-polymer crowd.
They have been right before, maybe we should listen to them now. :rolleyes: :neener: :neener:

[Handy]

Delta, saying something won't last forever doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

Just like Gaston said, a disposable gun for disposable soldiers.

Seriously though, I'm only talking about guns from the perspective of keeping them a long time. For cops, who keep their arms only a decade or so, polymer is ideal.

[DeltaElite]

Only a decade or so? You are on crack Handy. :D

The first frame on my Glock 17 was 12 years old when I upgraded to the frame with the light rails. It was fully functional after a decade of carry in uniform.
I use both with confidence that they will outlast my mortal bones.

Maybe our grandkids can continue this argument in the future on "The Really High Road Firing Line Glock Talk Forum". :p

[Handy]

The "decade or so" comment was in reference to the average time most police agencies keep their weapons, not how long the gun lasts. As you state, you got your Glock exchanged at 12 years. The NJ police P7s were considered really old at 20. A decade or so would be between 10 and 20. What did I do wrong this time?

[bad_dad_brad]

I didn't buy my Glocks with the intension of leaving them as heirlooms. Plastic does deteriorate, but let's face it, so does steel (RUST!). Who knows how long Glocks will last, but who cares? Besides, there are a zillion Glocks, and none but a few special issues will ever be collectable.

[9x19]

Handy,

As a little girl once said to (a reaosnable facsimile of) Einstein: Duh-uh! :rolleyes:

[Handy]

Thanks, as always, for your insightful contributions to this forum.

[9x19]

Handy,

To each, according to their demonstrated capacity to understand, I try.

Although I suspect my comments are the last thing some would ever be truly thankful for... I'll thank you for offering the appearance of appreciation. :)

"Insightful..." Yep, defintely should have taken Psychology... :D

[Grayrider]

Gents,

This discussion was had at length on ak-47.net regarding polymer AK mags and the AR-180b receiver. A fellow there is a plastics engineer--Schuetzenman maybe? I don't recall who it was. Anyway, he was of the opinion based on many years working with plastics that the polymer guns/parts would indeed become brittle over the long-term for the reasons mentioned above. I don't know if that would affect my purchasing for my use, but would enter into consideration if I was thinking of passing a weapon down the family tree. I definately do think of such things on some purchases.

Please don't take my word for this. Do a search on 47.net for the past discussions--they were very interesting!

GR

[jmbg29]

Handy,

My advice would be for you to encourage your grandkids to study metalurgy and/or polymer science, so they could be set to make a fortune in providing after-market replacement parts for the millions of polymer framed firearms that will exist by the time they become adults.

BTW, be sure and remind them to "pass the savings along..." . :rolleyes: :uhoh: :barf:

[Handy]

BTW, be sure and remind them to "pass the savings along..." .

This bothered me for a second, but you are completely right. Glock, HK, Springfield and Walther have discovered a product consumers want without questioning what they are getting. Yes, they are getting well engineered pistols, but those pistols feature the same materials, engineering and development as a quality $30 blender.

Manufactorers shouldn't "pass the savings along". But the gun buying public could be a little more critical. Since the mid-eighties, Glock prices have nearly doubled while several more labor intensive designs have barely krept up in price.

I guess the kind of person that would question "what am I really paying for?" is the same person who might also wonder if the weapon is built to last. Why buy a BMW when a Camaro has a bigger engine?

Along these lines, P7 owners are always labeled as snobs, concerned with appearances rather than the functionality of the weapon. But what would you call someone who purchased a $600 Glock knowing full well that it "shouldn't" have cost more than $300, and in years past did not?

[MoNsTeR]

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

$300 in 1985 = $506.60 in 2003

[Handy]

Monster,

Please compare the price of a Beretta in 85 with today. By your math the gun is cheaper than ever.

[Zundfolge]

Handy, Berettas are cheaper today (in adjusted dollars) as are computers and gasoline. Inflation tends to make people pine away for the good old days when a gallon of milk was a dime and a cup of coffee was nickel. But compare how long you have to work to earn a nickel today compared to the 1950s.


I think you may have a point about polymer guns not lasting as long as steel, however the amount of use you can get out of them in the short run makes them worth the cost. If a gun is lighter and more comfortable to carry then you'll be sure to carry it and more likely have it when you need it (but maybe I'm a hypocrite since I carry an all steel Kahr MK40 :p )

Also, I know of many people who have inherited grandpas Colt Peacemaker or whatever, and those guns haven't been what I would call "every day carry" worthy either.

If you want to have a few guns to hand down as family heirlooms then I agree you should pick steel guns (not just because they are more durable, but because someday steel guns will possibly be rare) ... but don't shoot them much either.

I do wonder if someday there will be polymers that won't degrade over time (assuming there is any material that won't degrade over time).

[Bobarino]

i did buch of searching of the internet looking for studies on the lifespan and durability of polymers. i came up empty. there was a reference to a book on that very subject but it was $85 and i'm a cheapskate. i checked out DuPont's website because i remembered that the Kel-Tec P-11 was made from a Dupont polymer but couldn't find any references on Dupont's site about the one listed on Kel-Tec's site. its called Dupont ST-8018. i did find some for ST-2010 and ST-2030 that gave properties of the polymers such as heat range, tensile stregth, stretch strength etc, but it was all greek to me as i know virtually nothing about the aforementioned measurements and what they mean and how they compare to steel or alloys.

however, i do have a point or two to debate. first, most polymer framed pistols are built around a steel skelton frame which bears the brunt of the punishment. second, the plastics in blenders, and the polymers in guns are not even close to the same. polymer are long chains of carbon with enormously strong chemical and ionic bonds, that are arranged in groups and the groups are arranged in structures. it usually takes huge amouts of energy (usually in the from of heat and pressure) to get all those carbon molecules to bond in the desired number, shape way etc. it takes an equal amout of energy to break those bonds.

i've had polymer vs. plastic explained to me like this:

think of the molecules we're dealing with as sticks of wood. plastics are pick-up sticks. you drop them into a pile and they are not arranged in any certain way, don't have much strength and are easy to disrupt.

polymer molecules are like link'n logs. they are stonger individual pieces, and when arranged to "link" with each other can become fairly sturdy and much less prone to being disrupted.

a chessey analogy but gives a little bit of a picture of the chemical structure.

polymers are however, organic compounds. they will indeed break down in the elements. but metal does the same thing, just in a different way. would you pick up a 100 year old Colt revolver and go shooting with it if you knew it hadn't been properly stored? your Glock/HK/P99 will be just fine in 50 years. you grandkids will probably be safe shooting it. look at the H&K VP70Z and P9S. they are around 30 years old, first generation polymers, and are holding up just dandy. only time will tell if we are right or not.

in the mean time, i'll keep looking for resources about polymer durability and post a link if i find any. this is quite interesting to me.

Bobby

[Handy]

Zandolfoge,

I imagine frames my be made out of solid carbon structures (Buckminster-Fulerine or the like), but plastic is going to be it for awhile.

Vinny,

Speaking of plastic and polymer, these are both general terms for organic based solids. Some are better than others, but no special qualities seem to be bequeathed by using the term "polymer". I would imagine that good old fiber forming nylon makes the cutoff. It is Glock's miracle ingrediant, after all.

Poly guns do not really have metal skeletons. The Steyr M does, but the Glock definitely does not. These weapons distort so much during firing that some models get frame block peaning (34 and 35 particularly). That's fine, they can take it while the plastic is new. I guess I'm wondering what "not so new" polymer is and how it will take it.

The VP70s are definitely getting up there in age, but are so uncommon that it might be hard to judge. The P9S is not a polymer frame, just metal with a non-load bearing grip and triggerguard attached.

[Bobarino]

good point about the P9S, my mistake on that. truthfully, i didn't know that Glock didn't use steel reinforcements. i thought they did. HK does however in their USP/USP-C. you can even see the steel in certain places. guess i'm glad i didn't buy a Glock. ;-)

Bobby

[JShirley]

That's John or "Mr. Shirley" to you, if you can't get my user name right. You can call me Shirley when you carry arms by my side.

Since Tennifer is more effective as a rust preventative (to the nth degree) than bluing, I wouldn't be too concerned over the Glock metal as compared to much older steel...

[9x19]

In the interest of fact vs feeble speculations, and although I am sure it will likely meet a number of deaf ears herein, I offer the information below which comes from a forensic engineer, who posted this on the 'net a few years ago.

For those open-minded individuals who will read it, note that it addresses both the cost and longevity misinformation which some have posted above. For the rest, well... :rolleyes:

"I did a little research and got a smattering of information on the Glock plastic "formula". One source says "more highly guarded than the Coke formula". From 3 human and 5 technical sources, Glock uses an out-sourced proprietary hybrid polymer mix with a base of Nylon 6. The frames are cast and offer high strength, wear resistance, abrasion resistance, and good resiliency, good ductility and toughness. Fracture mechanics are excellent with defect ratios below 1. Do not compare to extruded Nylons because it is different. Casting prices range from $3-$50/pound depending on process and intricacy. Commerical price for hi-grade Nylon 6 is about $3.50/lb. Commerical price for hi-carbon steel is about $1.50/lb. Sounds to me like the Glock is actually a better buy than most steel guns. The Glock is considered highly-intricate due to imbedded metallic components. Straight Nylon 6 offers long term performance at elevated and depressed temperatures. Chemically stable in a majority of environments, attacked directly by very strong acids and bases (better than steel actually). UV exposure results in degradation over an extended period of time. 2-3% carbon black virtually eliminates UV degradation and Carbon-Black does not become readily absorbed in Nylons offering higly increased useful life spans. Loss of mechanical properties with 2% Carbon-Black is less than 0.05% on an elevated UV exposure test equivalent to approximately 100 years.

Tupperware is not made from Nylon BTW. So, that gives some properties of the base material. I do know that several stabilizers are added to increase UV and temperature resistance. I have considered running some tests to get a spectral analysis and then doing Deconvolution by Integration, but this only gets me the % concentration of each element, not the actual chain information. Deformulation of plastics is one tough mother. ... Hope this answered some questions."

[Handy]

Mr. John Shirley,

Sorry about that. This "tennifer" process you mention; couldn't that also be applied to a steel frame, thereby getting all those corrosion proofing and low maintence benefits?


9x19,

That is a genuinely interesting a insightful discovery of yours. I asked how long they would last, and you came up with a great technical answer. It doesn't answer all questions, like what happens when mechanical stress, UV and chemicals act in concert, but it does give more hope that ones $2000 Socom pistol might remain a collectors item long enough to be a genuine antique. Thank you.


The infrequent urge to turn my Glock into cash subsides.

[9x19]

Nothing, ever, answers all questions... except perhaps time.

Maybe your grand-kids will come to your tomb-stone to tell you how much they like shooting your Glock! :D

[Zundfolge]

but it does give more hope that ones $2000 Socom pistol might remain a collectors item long enough to be a genuine antique

Unfortunately 9x19's post referred to Glocks not HKs :neener:


interesting info there 9x19 :)




Kinda makes that scene in The Graduate even more prophetic, eh?

[arinvolvo]

Aha, that is where the Steyr pistols come in....unlike the glock in which the steel slide rails are molded into the polymer, Steyr has steel rails on a steel frame...it just so happened that they wrapped it all up in polymer...I have no doubt that it will survive the test of time.

[Handy]

The Steyr will also have to get past its sear design and time.;)

9x19,
Actually, I'm hoping my great, great grandkids will be asking me how the old mechanical guns worked in person. Pray for the nanotechnological revolution.

[Nero Steptoe]

Glock's current policy is to repair any defective Glock of any age free. Even if one had to pay to buy a new frame, after, say, 30 yrs. and a million or so rounds, one would still be ahead of the game.

This fretting about how long the polymer frames will last is silly.

[9x19]

A near-immortal Handy?!

Now there's a thought to keep the rest of us up nights! :D

Don't know how we'd ever have room on this tiny ball to fit that many generations without some of them being planted.

[TheMariner]

I happened to have recently bought one and after about a 240rd run through at the range, tore it down and cleaned it.

First of all, whatever money I might have saved, assuming the polymer is cheaper, I got back in a well concieved and put together gun. I've torn apart alot of weapons and nothing compares to the ease of a P99. An whatever your problems with polymer, which happens to be a incredibly durable substance, most of the load and stress bearing surfaces in the gun were still steel.

But lets get to something alittle more basic than that. THe polymer gun concept is reduced weight for its size. And it is exactly what it delivers.

Another point, in science there is a HUGE difference between plastic and polymer. Check Bobarino's post for a very good explaination. An example of polymer's excellent qualities is the serious examination by NASA of using polymers in a earth to orbit connection. Tell me, can steel do that? Nope. Polymers might bend and yeild more easily but they absorb alot of stress steel would shatter under.

Oh, and Mr. John Shirley, Shirley, John, or whatever you true name might be, how about thinking about how people might abreviate your name next time you chose one. Or better yet, don't use your real name... Lot less harder to be offended. Getting offended over something so stupid makes me wonder if baring arms next to you is such a bright idea. I have maybe ten people I would trust with arms guarding my back, but nearly everyone calls me by my last name, no "Mr." attached.

[firestar]

My first gun ever was a Rem Nylon 77 (I think, it was the one with the mags not the tube). Anyway, before it was mine, my dad owned it and put several 100K rounds through it and then he gave it to me and I put another several 100K rounds through it in the years I had it. I would conservativly estimate about 500K. This is the most ammo I have ever put through any gun and it was my only gun for years. The Nylon did come into contac with the bolt during shooting and the entire stock had to be replace once by the factory. I don't remember why but something either broke or or wore down enough for the factory to replace it.

My point is, even with the tiny bit of stress that a .22lr puts on a gun, it did wear or break something on my Rem Nylon after many rounds. I wish I could remember what it was exactly.

I seriously doubt that plastic will last as long as steel. I don't care what an engineer says, plastic is not yet to the point where it is as good as steel. Look at tools for example, if you have plastic on a power tool and the tool is old and used, it tends to be cracked somewhere in the plastic. That is why a screwdriver has a plastic handle and a steel bit.

BTW, that Rem Nylon was a jam-o-matic. I sold it for $50 and can honestly say that I don't miss it one bit. If my dad had given me a Win 52 for my first gun, I would still have it and love it. Don't be a jerk and pass down plastic guns to your kids, not if you love them. That is just wrong.

[arinvolvo]

"That is why a screwdriver has a plastic handle and a steel bit." -firestar

Cmon now...sure but the screwdriver DOES have a plastic handle doesnt it??? Just like a gun...a plastic handle...Not a plastic barrel...

If steel is so godly, then why is it that KelTec pistols have been known to crack....in the steel frame, NOT the plastic handle...

Polymer is tougher and more reliable that you think...

That old nylon 77 is not even in the same category as the polymers used in Glocks or other high quality polymer pistols.

[DonGlock26]

How are the WWII era P-38 plastic grip panels holding up?

[JShirley]

TheMariner,

I really care less about seeing most people's arms. :neener:

Handy,

You're right, a total tennifer coating to an otherwise traditional-bodied steel frame would make it considerably more resistant to the elements. One might think, though, that just as tennifer is an advance compared to blue, a polymer frame is, as well. Just a thought, and I would certainly agree there are many fine steel guns out there.

[Handy]

If I offered you an all quality steel tennifered gun weighing within ounces of a plastic one, which would you pick? What if the price was within $50? (Assuming same reliability, ergonomics, caliber, etc.)

That's an easy one for me, and essentially the heart of my feelings on the matter. Steel frames were getting very light there for awhile using welding and quality stampings.

[JShirley]

Honestly, it would depend on total size of the package, caliber, etc.

MOST of the time, I prefer plastic. One of my next purchases may be a Kahr Micro, though, and in that short, well-balanced, relatively high-calibered weapon (for size), I'll probably go steel.

[Handy]

Could you say why, all else being roughly equal, you prefer plastic?

[firestar]

If steel is so godly, then why is it that KelTec pistols have been known to crack....in the steel frame, NOT the plastic handle...

I have a Kel-Tec P-32 and it doesn't have a steel frame, it has an alloy one.:D I'm not sure about the 9mm and .40 versions.

Plastic has its place but it really should be cheaper than steel. Handy is right, they are not passing the savings on to us. Why would they when we are prepared to pay there price to get the advantages of the polymere frames?

I don't like the look and feel of plastic but for a carry gun, they make alot of sense. My P-32 weighs about 7ozs. No way could you do that with a steel frame.

[owen]

I think a lot of people are making an artificial distinction between plastic and polymers.

A polymer is any organic material that is structured in chains. Most of the chemicals in gasoline can be considered polymers.

fr'instance, octane is a polymer made of 6 CH2 mers and 2 CH3 mers.

Wanna gun made out of gasoline? Me neither.

AFAIK all plastics are polymers. Saying a gun has a polymer frame is like saying saying a pistol with a tennifered 4140 alloy steel frame is made of metal. You are right, but being imprecise.

plastics began being called polymers when "plastic" became synonomous with cheap.

AFAIK, the most common polymer used in pistol frames in Dupont ST801. It is an impact modified Nylon 6,6. The ST stands for Super Tough. It is Super Tough. You can look up the mechanical properties on the Dupont website.

As far as long term durability, i don't know. I haven't read of anyone doing long term exposure/UV tests on the guns in question. However, the frames could be significantly weaker with no negative effect, because they are built much, much bigger than they need to be.

[JShirley]

Handy,

I considered getting an EAA at one time. It came in plastic and metal-framed versions. I expected them both to work well. I expected them to be fairly robust.

I knew that one weighed almost 1/3 less than the other. Especially for larger arms, I feel this is significant. Now, if metal frames were equally light and strong...why, I reckon I'd get the lesser expensive arm.

Now, the sad truth: plastic is not always better. I hate to say it, but it's true. I handled the Sub-2000 Saturday. I believe it will be a durable and very useable arm, but not nearly as nice as my Sub-9 (aluminum frame), even though it should be an improvement on the design. Yes, the 2000 is lighter and less expensive, but not (IMO) as useable.

[Tamara]

First, I'd like to apologize for totally misreading your intent in my first post in this thread.

Second: I totally grok where you're coming from on this topic; plastic guns have always felt, well, "disposable" to me. This isn't always a bad thing, mind you; Glocks & USPs, for instance, are possibly the greatest "beater" pistols ever made. They probably won't break, and even if they do, who cares? I definitely wouldn't buy one with "heirloom status" in mind, as (to me) they just don't give off that vibe.

I think the post making the point about the per-pound cost of Nylon-6 polymer vs. steel is missing a couple of major details. To wit: How many pounds of each is used in making a respective pistol's frame? And isn't squirting goop into a mold less labor-intensive than multiple milling operations?

(Oh, and the Camaro v. Beemer analogy has a minor flaw, too: my Zed Three has a plastic intake manifold. I hope for the sake of the future restorer of old BMW roadsters that someone casts quality replacement parts down the road, but I wonder... :( )

[Bobarino]

oh the BLASPHEMY!! your BMW has an alloy intake manifold. it has a plastic cover on the top of it to make it look purdy. i'm a BMW fan and since you don't know your car you are required to immediately turn the keys over to me. :-)

Bobby

[Tamara]

your BMW has an alloy intake manifold. it has a plastic cover on the top of it to make it look purdy.

Bets? ;)

BMW transitioned to the plastic intake manifold on the small inline sixes with the 3rd gen 3-series cars back in '92.

[JShirley]

Dude-

Argue with her at your peril. :D I rarely do, but (if compelled to do so), I always start with, Oh, great and rarely beauteous Tamara, this unworthy one must beg to humbly disagree, if it please you-

:evil:

[Ullr]

owen,

A polymer is any organic material that is structured in chains.

Well, that's not entirely true -- essentially any organic molecule can be thought of as being a chain. In solution, many change conformation (sometimes radically) to minimize their stress. Protein folding, for example, is an immensely complicated research area -- and proteins start out as chains of amino acids.

Polymers (in the sense used by physicists at least -- chemists and biologists feel free to chip in here) are "long skinny" molecules that preferentially align themselves with each other as they freeze into the solid state. In other words, they tend to have a microscopic "grain" similar (loosely) to the structure of wood fibers in a board, but on a much smaller scale.

Plastics, generically, are disordered polymers -- i.e. they freeze out too quickly to give each molecule a chance to "get in line."

They're made of the same stuff, but are structurally quite different. Condensed matter does all kinds of interesting things.

Ionizing radiation and prolonged exposure to UV light will cause polymers to break down more quickly. So don't put a black light in your gun safe, and you shouldn't have anything to worry about for a long, long time.

[Tag]

"I did a little research and got a smattering of information on the Glock plastic "formula". One source says "more highly guarded than the Coke formula". From 3 human and 5 technical sources, Glock uses an out-sourced proprietary hybrid polymer mix with a base of Nylon 6. The frames are cast and offer high strength, wear resistance, abrasion resistance, and good resiliency, good ductility and toughness. Fracture mechanics are excellent with defect ratios below 1. Do not compare to extruded Nylons because it is different. Casting prices range from $3-$50/pound depending on process and intricacy. Commerical price for hi-grade Nylon 6 is about $3.50/lb. Commerical price for hi-carbon steel is about $1.50/lb. Sounds to me like the Glock is actually a better buy than most steel guns. The Glock is considered highly-intricate due to imbedded metallic components. Straight Nylon 6 offers long term performance at elevated and depressed temperatures. Chemically stable in a majority of environments, attacked directly by very strong acids and bases (better than steel actually). UV exposure results in degradation over an extended period of time. 2-3% carbon black virtually eliminates UV degradation and Carbon-Black does not become readily absorbed in Nylons offering higly increased useful life spans. Loss of mechanical properties with 2% Carbon-Black is less than 0.05% on an elevated UV exposure test equivalent to approximately 100 years. "

What is this Carbon-Black he speaks of??? Is ArmorAll worth using??

questions

[Cal4D4]

If it is the standard use of the term carbon black, it is simply finely divided carbon added in to act as a UV block. Think of it as SPF 500 sunscreen. The energy supplied by UV radiation helps degrade the plastic bonds. The carbon blocks it at the surface.

[Tag]

ic, how is the carbon held in place? dosen't Armor All have a UV blocker in it as well? What other products would work I wonder... Probably many in the meritime industry.

[Cal4D4]

Carbon is blended into the plastic, just like carbon is blended into the rubber of your tires.

[zahc]

CHECK THIS OUT

:what:

http://dazzle.mightyeyes.com/Asx/74445/74445-20030405-4891-v8xwf/Broken_Glock.jpg


IIRC I got it from front site training's website. said the barrel leaded and it fired while the slide was unlocked.:scrutiny: :uhoh:

[Handy]

Glocks won't fire out of battery! I asked them, and they said that it wouldn't fire even the tiniest bit out of full lockup.


(Which is complete BS) And Glock's official position.

[Tag]

I also was wondering just how far out of battery my glock needs to be in order to not fire... ?

It does not take much pressure to move the slide back, which I'm told allows the pressure to fall off before the slide opens up after firing.

Any ideas? Centimeters, quarter inch? I'm guessing that there is most definitly a point were the gun will fire that is not totally in battery... but it's just a guess, no intentions of testing it.


thanks guys..

[Handy]

1/8"


Try it yourself (unloaded, of course.)

[Tamara]

It's photos like that that make me wish I'd had a digital camera around for the various spectacularly destroyed Berettas, SIGs and 1911's I've seen. (Ironically, the only magazine-launching Glock I've seen was a 9mm gun which was immediately returned to service after a quick field strip to check for damage. Moral of the story? Devices that are meant to contain explosions sometimes don't. Planes drop out of the sky. Screws fall out. It's an imperfect world. If you're looking for perfect safety, find another hobby.)

(Oddly enough, I have yet to see a very, very detonated Ruger; even a couple of rounds launched behind a squib load usually just results in a jugged barrel and a locked-up slide. I'm sure it can happen, though; some folks could break an anvil.)

[JohnMc]

FYI: Polymers are molecules made from repeats of monomers. Generally, the term "polymer" is used with lots of repeats, while dimer, trimer, etc are used for a few.
Homopolymers use the same monomers, like PVC, while heteropolymers use different ones, like proteins.

Ullr wrote:

"long skinny" molecules ... & ...essentially any organic molecule can be thought of as being a chain.

Not necessarily, polymers can be highly branched, to form balls or whatever. They can also fold up and internally cross-link to form balls, columns, or whatever. Further, the polymers can cross link to each other, to from polymers of polymers. The choice of which type to use depends on the situation.

A classic example from biology is starch vs glycogen. Both are storage polymers of glucose. Starch is for plants, glycogen for animals. Starch is not branched much, while glycogen is highly branched. The glucose monomer is nibbled off the ends of the chain branches as energy is needed in either case. Starch hasn't got a lot of ends, but plants don't generally need energy all that fast. Glycogen, OTOH, has lots of ends, so the animal can get lots of glucose monomers liberated quickly.

Many organic compounds are NOT polymers, the list incudes glucose & most simple sugars, acetic acid, formic acid, all the amino acids, the DNA monomers, and so on.


That said, I don't know a thing about the polymer(s) used by firearms manufacturers.

One question, though, why hasn't my favorite material, Stainless steel, entered the mix? Or did I miss it?

JohnMc

15 yrs ago, i cudn't evn spel bilogist, and now i are one.

[Don Gwinn]

Broken anvils are more common than you think. ;)


Handy, yes, if I could have an all-steel pistol that performed just like the polymer version, but weighed exactly the same as well, I'd pay an extra $50 for it. In other news:

If I could have a piece of cheesecake with the same calories as a piece of celery, but it tasted exactly as good as real cheesecake, I'd take that too.

Also, if I could get a pickup that got the same fuel mileage as my car but with 18 inches of ground clearance and 300 lb/ft. of torque, I'd take that as well.

Obviously, the hitch in the plan is that you can't tell me how you plan to construct an all-steel pistol that will do everything the polymer pistol does and weighs the same. Steel weighs more than plastic.

[BHP9]

You all missed the latest scientific evidence that will knock your socks off. Your Glock or any other platic hangun may be killing you slowly while we speak and you are not even aware of how it is doing this. I am not joking, you had better read this and read it well.

A young man was hired to clean out some plastic cages that contained mice in a laboratory. He accidentally used the wrong cleaner to clean the plastic cages and the cleaner deteriorated a the plastic which released a dangerous fume that is found in most super plastics like that of the Glock and other handguns. The mice contracted cancer and also when they reproduced it caused birth defects.

This by chance accident of using the wrong cleaner by hired help suddenly revealed a bombshell that shocked the scientific community for they on their own with all of their highly intellegent testing that has been going on for years had never discovered this deadly truth about the lethality of plastics.

So the next time you clean your Glock or other plastic pistol I would advise you to do it outdoors with plenty of fresh air and wear surgical gloves and a face mask with appropriate protective filters. Failure to do so will enable yours truly to be at an auction someday to buy up all of the ammo you never got a chance to shoot because of your early and untimely demise..,

[Tamara]

Cite?

[BHP9]

Cite?

I am sorry Tamara to keep sounding like a broken record but you must be joking.

This story has been plastered all over the news this week. I even heard it a dozen times or so on public radio while driving to work not to mention seeing it on TV .

[Tamara]

....I'm sorry to keep sounding like a broken record, too, but once again: "Cite?"

"It's been all over the news" is not a cite.

A link would be good. Maybe the name of the lab that released the findings? The type of plastic and the type of cleaner involved would be helpful as well to determine relevance.

[BHP9]

A link would be good. Maybe the name of the lab that released the findings? The type of plastic and the type of cleaner involved would be helpful as well to determine relevance.

I have never been on public TV's web site but it is my understanding that they have one. All the news stories are probably to be found on it and I imagine you could even call your local affliated station. Their brodcasts are nationwide in every state. We have two local channels one in Cleveland and one in Youngstown and every other state probably has many more.

[BHP9]

Also remember we are not just talking about handguns but a multitude of products that are made of plastics. Public radio said that this chemical is found in a wide variety of plastics that we use everyday and probably clean quite often in our homes. They did emphasize that many of the super plastics have this deadly chemcial in them.

[BHP9]

Good night all , I have to go to another big gun show tomorrow and I will be wearing surgical gloves and a face mask in case I walk by any plastic handguns.

Just joking the new disease scuds from China will probably kill us all before the plastic handguns do.

[Tamara]

Must be a pretty stealthy story: Googling "plastic fumes cancer" nets bupkis.

[Byron Quick]

I listen to NPR news daily. It's sorta like doing penance. Their news programs repeat several times daily. I haven't heard the first word on this. Next?

[Handy]

Don,

If a Steyr GB is a huge, 18rd, 5" barrel auto that weighs less than an alloy framed Beretta, doesn't that demonstrate that an all steel gun CAN weigh in the same neighborhood as polymer?

Frames made from welded sheet metal need not be at all heavy, and would be more durable than plastic or aluminum.

Keep in mind that Glock frames are so light in part because most of the firing mechanism is in the slide. The polymer SIG Pro is no lightweight. Enjoy your cheesecake.


Tamara and BHP9,

Here's a link to a Frontline (PBS) show that mentions a '97 study involving polycarbonate and cancer. I don't know if that's what y'all are talking about, but mouse cages are typically polycarb.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nature/etc/cron.html

And an interview for some depth:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nature/interviews/vomsaal.html

BHP9, I would assume with your fear of chemical carcinogens, you clean you guns with olive oil?

[isaidme]

I think 9x19 nailed it "Perhaps you worry too much!" You should keep some zanix and a 6pack handy,it will help you to sleep :D

[Riphalman]

A bowl full of fresh veggies and a mag full of hollowpoints to make a salad, then extra-virgin olive oil for salad dressing and weapon cleaning! Whoa!.....we may be onto something here.

[care-less]

Handy, Thanks for creating such a lively discussion. I have wondered about the deterioration of polymer framed guns myself. Am I correct that even steel of the highest quality degrades over the years, at least to some extent; becomes brittle etc? I am sure of one thing; people are still selling, trading, and shooting the P9S, and VP70Z's are they not? However, in the context of "passing them down to your grandchildren", I believe steel is the way to go; at least the best way we have right now. At the same time, I own 4 polymer pistols, and I really don't worry about it. I guess I am just confused! I guess I might even quit laying my plastic guns in the direct sunlight for 40yrs at a time. One thing for sure, I don't believe that even Glock makes their frames from recycled milk jugs; and I am positive that HK doesn't.:scrutiny:

[Art Eatman]

care-less, I wouldn't worry about any degradation of steel, absent exposure to weather or such problems as are brought about by salt water. Rust, ya know.

My first IPSC pistol was a 1912-manufacture 1911. Had an old Colt Navy .36; at around age 110 it shot just fine. Had a Jim Bridger rifle made in 1853; I didn't shoot it, but it looked and felt like everything was good to go. Lotsa old Krags still shooting, along with old Mausers...

:), Art

[Don Gwinn]

Handy, while I am far from a handgun expert, I would just observe a few things that give me pause regarding your analogy:

1. You compared a steel frame to an "alloy" (aluminum, yes?) frame, not steel to polymer.

2. The Beretta is renowned far and wide as a pistol that is bigger, chunkier, and heavier than it should be. Personally, I don't find the grip too big, the safety's just inconvenient. But I've never heard it cited as a lightweight pistol before (or a polymer frame, for that matter.)

3. I'd have to see it to be sure, but I suppose welded sheet metal would work. Seems to me that would negate a lot of the strength and durability advantages you tout for steel, plus being more difficult and expensive to manufacture.

I like my SIG a lot, and I want a Kimber when I can manage it. But to suggest that my G30 is weak or fragile in comparison doesn't pass my smell test.

[Tamara]

Thank you for the link. :cool:

Hmm. So bisphenol-A is, according to Dr. Vom Saal, a potent estrogen mimic, and can cause prostate problems after prolonged exposure... That's gotta suck. ;)

Anyhow, the advice from BHP9, "So the next time you clean your Glock or other plastic pistol I would advise you to do it outdoors..." may not be so hot, since sunlight (http://www.cancer.ie/information/carcinogen/) is a known carcinogen. ;)



(Speaking of svelte steel guns, I picked up another BDM recently; I'm trying to get around to a minireview/rangereport...)

[Don Gwinn]

Maybe the BDM would make a better argument. According to Beretta.com, the 92 weighs 34.4 ounces unloaded. Various sites gave the weight of the Steyr GB as being anything from 29.5 ounces to 35 ounces empty. Depending on whom is asked, then, it's hard for me to say whether the GB is actually lighter than the 92. However, a quick check of Glock.com showed that the Glock 17 weighs 22 ounces empty. The G 21 weighs closer to a GB's lightest weight, at 26 ounces, but then, it's a .45!

Whether all this hairsplitting on weight really matters is another question, but the difference is there. If nothing else, you've managed to make me want a GB now. Thanks. . . . that was just what I needed. :rolleyes:

[Tamara]

Jane's gives 850g unloaded for the 92 and 845g for the GB, and remember: if Jane's and reality disagree, it's reality that's in error... ;)


645g for the empty G21...

[Marko Kloos]

That's 29.98 ounces for the 92, 29.8 ounces for the GB, and 22.75 ounces for the G21, for those of you not fluent in Metric.

[Handy]

Yes, I should have mentioned the BDM as well. The point still stands, no one is or was TRYING to make a really light steel pistol. Two companies, using very different techniques, did so anyway.

What would happen if someone actually tried to make a light, steel pistol (I know, it's just horrifying to think about)?



Careless, the P9S is a steel framed pistol. The VP70 is polymer, though.

[Tamara]

The point still stands, no one is trying to make a really light steel pistol.

Which leads to the question: "Why?" The (as you point out) reactionary segment of the market should fall all over it, and I doubt it would be any more expensive to make. The aluminum frames on SIGs and Berettas sure ain't done for cost savings...

To use your bicycle industry metaphor: why the use of alloys and composites instead of steel?

(30 oz empty for my BDM, BTW...)

[care-less]

This is great!!!!!:) :( ;) :p :o :cool: :confused: :what:

[Don Gwinn]

OK, I think I get it--but if Jane's is accurate, that begs the question: Why is Beretta advertising their pistol as heavier than it really is? ;)

[Handy]

Sure Tamara, the reactionary crowd LOVES stamped construction.

Where's Boats and BHP9 clamoring "More stampings, more stampings!"

Stamping, welding, finish machining and finishing a steel frame probably would cost a little more than the old injection molder, don't cha think? The gun's construction would still be labeled "cheap" and new fangled.


The aluminum frames on Sigs and Berettas (and Rugers) are done for cost savings, at least in part. Aluminum does not wear out tooling and casting machinery at the rate steel does.

And I wouldn't call a Glock frame "composite". That really does a disservice to Kestral and Look. It's just plastic, really.

[MoNsTeR]

Here's the story BHP9 is talking about:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/hsn/20030401/hl_hsn/plastic_tied_to_chromosome_damage_in_mice

I searched for the terms: mice, plastic

[Tamara]

Same story: bisphenol-A, according to Dr. Vom Saal and some others, such as Dr. Hunt, is an estrogen-mimic. There is a potential link between the presence of this substance and prostate enlargement and birth defects from chromosomal damage (estrogen, the female hormone, is one of the active ingredients, along with estradiol, in birth-control pills). Bisphenol-A is not present in all plastics, and it requires certain agents to leech it out of the plastics it is contained in. It requires some pretty serious fictional license to extrapolate this data to "Cleaning your Glock/USP/P99 causes cancer." But, then, science education and critical thinking skills are rather sadly neglected in U.S. schools. ;)

[Tamara]

I'm not necessarily stating that it's a bad idea, just that I'm convinced that there's a reason it's not being implemented beyond that of "no one is daring enough to try it". Pistols as heirlooms are nice (I collect vintage Smith revolvers, you know ;) ) but there's a broad spectrum of folks who just need them for tools. My all-steel BDM is quite slim (as are the 1911 and GP35) and light (for an all-steel gun, a serious qualifier), but certainly much heavier than the comparably-sized P-228 and G19, and the BDM hasn't exactly garnered a reputation for rugged durability despite its all-steel construction. Personally, I think the whole weight issue can be overplayed (I'm carrying an all-steel 1911 on my hip right now) in certain cases, but it makes a difference in other cases: the gun in my purse is made largely of aluminum and titanium, and the gun on my hip is not accompanied by OC, four spare mags, a radio, a baton, handcuffs, and assorted other doodads.

Additionally, I'm not convinced that a frame welded from steel stampings, as you suggested, would necessarily offer any increase in durability for a shooting firearm. Sure, it may last longer than the plastic one if left in the sock drawer for 150 years (we have no empirical evidence of this, due to the paucity of 100-year-old polymer frames, so we're all working from various SWAG's on the issue ;) ), but the welded stampings would expose you to the same cracking problems as anodized aluminum forgings in a long-term, heavy-use gun.

[Handy]

Tamara,

The reason it hasn't been implemented is that there is no demand for any new design that is not either very traditional or plastic. Blame the Glock. The consumer would say "why bother" and not be wrong. If you think about a light steel gun, it's attractive, but not enough to motivate a market.

We always end up talking bikes, because there are some parallels. Interestingly, pressure from the carbon fiber, aluminum and Ti bikes have led some innovators to build amazingly light and strong steel frames. But bicycle frame building still has a strong cottage industry, which firearms really don't. We have gunsmiths, not but not many small designer/fabricators.


As to the strength of stampings, your HK91 is a nice example of a stamped military arm that has seen world military service since 1959, with many of those first guns still in use. Obviously, one can screw up anything, but stamped/welded construction has been going strong in firearms since before WWII, it just hasn't been applied to handguns much. The few that have seem to work just fine.

I do expect my stamped P9S and GB frames to retain their strength and dimensions for more rounds than the Glock, perhaps indefinetly. The G34/35 slide peaning issue will likely prove the hallmark of future problems as the plastic begins to lose its elasticity. I wouldn't venture a guess when the polymer frames will die, but I truly expect no comparable issues with any decent steel production. Especially stampings, which are likely tougher than cast steel parts.

[Tamara]

I do expect my stamped P9S and GB frames to retain their strength and dimensions for more rounds than the Glock,

No quibble about the general properties of stampings, it's just when welds enter the picture that one adds a significant variable for screwups to occur. (Also note that the P9 weighs ~1.3 times what a G17 does, whereas a G17 weighs less than 10% more than an HK4.)

Especially stampings, which are likely tougher than cast steel parts.

Indeed. Although I think lendringser put it well when he said "ordnance steel is ordnance steel, and for all practical purposes doesn't much care how it's shaped into its final form." (With necessary caveats about due care being taken for stresses in the metal and/or air pockets and such. ;) )

[Handy]

Well, I think we all recognize that the G17 is not a lightweight just due to its frame material. So comparing it to guns with hammers, cocking levers, etc. is a little misleading. Something like a USP, Sig Pro, Witness Poly, P95 might be better. But again, you're comparing one or two guns to 20 of the poly variety.


I'm not sure what you (and Lensringer) mean about steel being steel. I wouldn't work on a car with a cast steel wrench. Stamping steel, for instance, is a forging process, which should produce better grain structure and harder metal. Are there any cast steel barrels? Are the cast Special Weapons G3 receivers as thin as the stamped ones?

[Tamara]

Are there any cast steel barrels?

I think Ruger makes a cast 6-shot .454 Casull cylinder. All the other companies make forged 5-shot cylinders. There's castings and then there's castings....

Like I said:

(With necessary caveats about due care being taken for stresses in the metal and/or air pockets and such. ;) )

[Edit: I may be wrong about the cylinder, but there's no doubt that Ruger frames and rifle receivers are cast, and anybody who's glanced through a reloading source has heard of "Ruger only loads"...]

[PPS: Doing a Google on "Ruger investment cast" has turned up all kinds of cool stuff (http://www.pinetreecastings.com/Casting/Tech-AlloysFerrous.html) on the web. I love these kind of threads... :cool:]

[Tamara]

Interesting factoid, although I don't know how (or if) it bears on the discussion at hand, is that (IIRC) Ruger's current centerfire polymer-framed semiautos eschew metal frame rails, and instead rely on the inherent lubricity of the polymer (and some mohunkin' big frame rails). You may be right, in that all these plasticky bits will be dust in 50 or 100 years, but it'll be interesting to find out whether new material solutions to old engineering problems have really been discovered.

[hso]

BHP9,

The plastic that was damaged by the rat cage cleaner belongs to the group that polycarbonate and it's cousins are part of. Discussions involving bisphonl A are not relevant when discussing the glocks as it is not used in nylons (this is like using Pb hazards or Ni carcinoginicity as the basis for claiming your other-metal guns should be tossed out).
You should be more worried about the bottled water from your office cooler (polycarbonate type platic http://www.polymerprocessing.com/polymers/PC.html) than your glock (nylon type plastic http://www.polymerprocessing.com/polymers/PA6.html). Matter of fact, you should be much more worried about the solvents you use to clean your gun. Since the glock requires less cleaning than many other handguns it may actually be safer from a hazardous chemical exposure standpoint. Regardless, any cleaning using solvents should be done out of doors with plenty of good ventilation and I advise the use of nitrile exam gloves if using anything that looks like carburator cleaner or has skin irritation warnings.I will not clean guns in the house nor will I do it without nitrile gloves (your suggestion to use "surgical" gloves was at least looking in the right direction if the wrong material).

OBTW, I'm an Industrial Hygienst so if you would like information on a good source on disposable nitrile gloves I'd be happy to forward the information.

Mike

[Riphalman]

GONE will be the buzz I've always enjoyed from sniffing fumes of old No.9.....although there'd be fewer complaints from the wife. Shame too, I've always thought Hoppes would make an ideal aftershave.

[Preacherman]

hso, I'd be grateful if you would please post that information on a source for disposable nitrile gloves. I'm sure many of us (including me!) would appreciate the information.

[Boats]

Where's Boats and BHP9 clamoring "More stampings, more stampings!"


Reactionary? Moi? Don't go lumping me in with someone I have on my ignore list.:D

Anyways, there are plenty of examples of stamped steel guns that worked: AK variants, the M3 Grease Gun, the Liberator. . . some SIGs. . . .What was my reactionary point again? Oh yeah, stampings are great for a throwaway gun! When I see a polymer or stamped wheelgun I'll know plastic and stampings have finally interesected with aesthetics and quality. In other words, plastic and the press will have finally "arrived" at the point where most discerning handgun customers have lost all sense of taste.:evil:

I have the feeling it will be a long wait for that day. I personally do not have anything objective against plastic or stampings in weaponry, I just think that an overabundance of the two exude a lack of class, style, and value. I could care less one way or the other if the plastic or stamped guns of today are still kicking with their steel counterparts a hundred years from now. I do know based on past performance, a well cared for all steel one will still be eminently fireable.

[Handy]

Thank you for living up to my prejudices.


By the by, how is a stamped steel gun not an "all steel gun"?

[Triad]

Boats, there is a polymer framed wheel gun. It's a top break .357 made in Russia.

[Boats]

Pardon my incorrect terminology. Forged or cast steel firearm contrasted against sheet metal firearms or Glorified Bakelite guns.

Remember Handy, it is all in jest. No one should care too much for what I think about weapons made of Tupperware or Reynold's Wrap. :evil:

[Boats]

Boats, there is a polymer framed wheel gun. It's a top break .357 made in Russia.


There is also a semi-automatic revolver from Italy, doesn't make it right.:rolleyes:

[Tamara]

I'd be willing to bet that the revolver in question has a steel frame with a polymer shell... (Its 32oz. weight would certainly suggest it.)

[Triad]

It probably does have a steel frame. I wish I could buy one and find out. Damn worthless politicians.:cuss: :fire:

[makarov]

http://www.dupont.com/automotive/applications/power/ptforum/win00/bmw.html