[The Dutchman]

Whats the best self defense .45ACP ammo out there? Some people have told me that the Ranger T-series is excellent however its only available for law enforcement. Other have told me that Hydra-Shock is the best. Any opinions or preferences?

[dmallind]

While like the vast majority of others I can answer only from spec sheets and target practice rather than actual use (and heck even those who can speak from actual use almost never have done any kind of controlled comparison!) I am fond of DoubleTap Ammo myself - reasonably priced with some startling performance specs and I find they feed with no problems at all in my SW1911PD.

I shoot both 200 and 230gr JHP versions - and probably prefer both the specs and the performance of the 200gr.

[RRTX]

I use Ranger T's, they are not restricted to LEO only but I usually can only get them at gun shows. (If anyone knows where to order this online for a decent price let me know)

[SRN]

The ammunition that is absolutely reliable in your gun and that you can shoot reasonably fast and accurately is probably the best for you. All the major US manufacturers - Winchester, Speer, Federal, Remington - make good products. I suggest 230 grain loads using one of the law enforcement lines from one of these manufacturers.

Winchester does not "officially" sell their Ranger T line to non-LEOs, but you can find folks on Glock Talk and Warrior Talk forums that will. Also, I think Florida Bulllets will also sell Ranger Ts to non-LEOs. Nothing illegal about this ammo in most states - simply a marketing ploy by Winchester to set apart their LEO ammo from that available to us lesser mortals.

regards,
Steve

[The_Shootist]

I shoot and carry the WW JHP's 230 grain in my 1911. The ammolab (when it was open) ran some tests on this ammo in ballistic gelatin and found (for what you pay for it) that was it performed very well. Seems to be sorrt of a bargain basement Silvertip.

[8830]

Any good HP that your gun will feed reliably will work. I've used Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, Silvertips, Starfires and Black Talons in my P220. Any of those will do the job.

[Morgan]

I prefer Gold Dots, 230gr or 200gr +p.

Ranger T is here:

http://www.proload.com/shoppingcart/product2.asp?dept%5Fid=3&sku=RA45T&unit=box

[HighVelocity]

230gr Federal hydrashok functions perfectly in my G30 and has a good track record so that's what I'm using.

[stormspotter]

I have bought Win 45 ACP RA45T on gunbroker.com in the high teens $$$.
Even with shipping it still cheaper than 2 - 20 round boxs of factory HP.

Have also found 4 boxes of the original 9mm black talon in the high teens.

Just make sure it is legal in your state.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Leonard

[Ky Larry]

I use WWB 230gr JHP. It's reliable and accurate in my Kimber.

[MrMurphy]

I use 230 g Hydrashoks myself.

The Winchester Ranger SXT is also excellent.

The FBI guys who get .45s (SWAT) use the Remington Golden Saber apparently with spectacular success and due to the Hydras being harder to find in 230g now, I might switch to those.

the Gold Dot also works well.

[The Dutchman]

I have heard a lot of good things from all these designs but I have heard little about Extreme Shock Fang Faced bullets....are these just a novelty? Also I know they took Black Talons off the market but is the Ranger T-series inferior to the Black Talon?

[Lennyjoe]

Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P out of my Kimber Pro Carry II.

[oneslowgun]

Cor-Bon 200gr+p JHP's, but I have been thinking of moving to Golden Sabers.

[DarkKnight01]

230 grain Golden Sabres here.

[38SnubFan]

Federal HydraShok 165-gr. here. Works without a hitch in a Bersa Firestorm!

[black bear]

My twenty years old Colt Gov't had 500 rounds thru it 400 were 230 grains ball ammo and the other 100 Hydra Shocks 230 grains.
Once I shoot some wet telephone books with this ammo, the recovered bullet shows good expansion with a post sticking out of the middle.
The "trauma' to the phone books was severe.
black bear

[bpisler]

My glock 30 that i owned was real
accurate with 200gr +P gold dots
made by speer.185gr golden sabres
were also quite accurate.

[Sean Smith]

Also I know they took Black Talons off the market but is the Ranger T-series inferior to the Black Talon?

Actually, they are an improved Black Talon. The "T" stands fror "Talon", in fact; they just quit painting it black.

[Tse Gee La]

A friend of mine who had used a .45 in several shootings said the basic Federal Self Defense, not Hydra-Shok, worked perfectly fine and all expanded well.

[Ala Dan]

We just received some Hornady .45 ACP Personal Defense ammo that I'm
really interested in trying? Like most others, my experience is limited too
punching holes in paper, not in humans; but this Hornady ammo really
looks good. It has deep serrations around the thin jacketed hollow point,
which should make it expand a bit better. Priced at only $12.95 per 20
round box, I may have to run a box thru the Springer G.I. for testing.

[38SnubFan]

I use the Hornady XTP in my .38, and it's reliably accurate. As far as penetration, I've only put holes in paper targets myself. However, the guy at Gander Mountain who recommended it to me used them to shoot some melons in his backyard, and they made a heck of a hole! :eek: :what: :D

[cslinger]

Currently Winchester Silvertips 230 grain or 185 grain Federal EFMJ.

All things considered as long as it functions in my autos I really don't much care what it is. Most modern HP rounds are pretty darn good but not good enough that marksmenship isn't really the deciding factor. As long as it goes bang and I can put rounds where I want I am happy.

Chris

[Penman]

I carry the 230 grn Hydra Shoks.

[BluesBear]

Does no one here ever check out the THR Trading post? >> http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=124675


Personally I carry Remington Golden Sabre or Winchester Ranger.
I also really like and used to carry the Triton ammo before they went belly up.


I have found that Silvertips often fragment and don't penetrate deeply enough.
I have had good test results with the 230 gr Hydra-Shok but the lighter, watered down stuff often doesn't expand.

Glaser Pow'r Ball shows promise but I am unimpressed with the Federal EFMJ.



But to be honest, my first two or three rounds are Glaser Safety slugs.

[Gunnutz13]

...is the Winchester Black Talons, followed closely by the Federal Hydrashoks

:evil:

[Missouri Mule]

With modern technology and the level of competition for your business amongst the ammo makers these days there are a lot of very good choices.

I personally use CorBon +P , Gold Dot +P, Hydra Shoks, and Golden Sabres.

Right now my favorites happen to be the Gold Dot 200+p in .45acp, 124+p in 9mm and 90 gr HP in .380acp.

That being said There are times when I carry good old fashioned hard ball.

[Bacon]

The link BluesBear provided takes you to a good guy to buy from. He communicates and delivers a good product.

I'm just now trying out the Ranger ammo but have liked the Speer GoldDot 200gr. +P for a long time.

Steve

[Kevinch]

I think the best load will depend on the length of barrel on your .45; in a short 3" compact 1911 you might want a bullet that performs at a lower velocity than one that you might use in a full sized Government Model.

I'm currently carrying 230 Hydra Shoks.

[glock281]

If you are looking at getting some Ranger ammo I have a few boxes for sell.
9mm - 40sw - 45acp - 12ga
just shoot me an email.

ar281@comcast.net

[Chris Pinkleton]

I feel fine with just about any brand of 230 grain JHP. I use the Gold Dots now, and I'd probably use the Remington Golden Sabers if they weren't availible. I use 230gr., not only for it's slight edge in penetration, but also because it tends to hit closer to the point of aim in fixed sighted guns than lighter bullets.

I have heard a lot of good things from all these designs but I have heard little about Extreme Shock Fang Faced bullets....are these just a novelty? Also I know they took Black Talons off the market but is the Ranger T-series inferior to the Black Talon?

There is ZERO objective data that I know of on "Extreme Shock" ammo. It looks like Walter Mitty type stuff to me. The same goes for Glaser, MagSafe, and all the other "exotics." (There is data on the latter two, but they're still not for serious work -- underpenetration city) This is not the stuff that any elite police or military units are using.

Wanna know why? Go here and read a few articles: http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

The various "Talon" bullets are really just very middle-of-the-road JHPs. No magic in 'em. Most current JHPs beat the heck out of the old-style Talon, according to Doc GKR over at Tactical Forums. Mostly, folks who still keep 'em for defensive ammo seemed to have bought the media hype about their special "cop-killing power" -- which was a pile of bovine excreta to begin with.

[Bostonterrier97]

I like Remington Golden Sabers.

[wolf]

demand has made the quality of products increase and has created sub-catagories and that market may be refined but it exists

top selling quality brands stay close to each other in most aspects or dont survive..selection of a brand for me is personal choice..it could be the name, color, or ad slogan..if all brands were available and the need arose...im going to use what i can load first..until then..speer gold dots 230 hp work very well in my beretta and in my head...

wolf

[MCNETT]

www.doubletapammo.com
DoubleTap 200gr GDHP @ 1125fps are my current favorite.
All of them perform well in Denim covered 10% ordinance gelatin, though.

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
-Mike

[Sir Aardvark]

I use Winchester SXT in .45ACP and .40S&W.

The guy I took my CCW and other self defense classes from is a Huntington Beach, CA Police Dept. SWAT member and he highly recommends the stuff.

SXT's are essentially the same thing that the "Black Talons" are. The only differences are: 1) they don't have the little "Talons" that are exposed when the "petals" peel back when they expand in the wound channel; 2) they are not black; 3) they do not have the negative media hype that caused Winchester to drop the "Black Talon" name.

You might think that SXT stands for "Supreme eXpansion Technology", but it really means "Same eXact Thing".

[Father Knows Best]

Bought a case (500 rounds) for $175 about a year ago. Once a month, I shoot a half box of it -- emptying the three mags +1 I keep loaded (I use cheap PMC 230 FMJ for most practice). I've got about 9 months' supply left, assuming no goblin encounters, at which point I need to decide whether to stick with it or try something new.

I read an article recently about a RN with some sort of polymer inside it that squishes out on impact. Supposedly, it gives just as good of expansion in gelatin as HP, and much better through clothing because it doesn't have a nose cavity that can get plugged up. Anyone remember what that stuff is?

[BluesBear]

FKB, There's two,

Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket)

Glaser Pow'R Ball

[Hypnogator]

I carry 230-gr Hydra-Shoks -- They're 100% reliable in my Taurus PT-145.

I wouldn't be afraid of 200-230 gr Gold Dots, Golden Sabres, Hornaday XTPs or Ranger-Ts. There really isn't that much difference between any of the premium rounds.

I've fired a limited number of Taurus 185-gr loads with the all-copper Barnes bullets. They function reliably, but I'm just not convinced the lighter load has the oomph of the 200-230 gr loads.

Haven't tried EFMJs, but would like to. The Cor-Bon Powr-Ball sounds interesting but I still haven't seen any in 200-gr.

[Bacon]

Speer 200 gr. +P Gold Dot

[moxie]

provide great stopping power but are less likely to penetrate drywall, etc., so they limit "collateral damage" which is an important consideration.

Outdoors, it depends on the gun. Short barrel autos and snub 625s benefit from the extra velocity of the Rem 185+P Golden Sabers. Full size autos and 4-5" barrel 625s can use the 230 grain bullets to advantage. The best IMHO of these are the Federal Hydra-Shok and the Remington Golden Saber.

Of course you have to apply the general rule of thumb that the ammo has to feed and fire 100% in your gun, so you have to spend some money and fire the round you pick enough times to confirm this. This can be expensive, especially with Glasers. But the peace of mind you get after you do the testing in your gun will be worth it. The ogive on the modern bullets such as Golden Saber, Hydra-Shok, and Glaser more closely approximates that of the FMJ ammo, so they tend to function better than some of the older efforts such as the "flying ashtray."

[Elmer]

I hate to disagree with you Moxie, but in the Glaser shootings I saw, the subjects were hit multiple times, with very little effect. The rat-hole like wounds look quite awesome, but the lack of penetration precluded hitting anything deep enough to do the job.

The 230 Grain Golden Saber's and Hydra Shok's are both good choices, although Federal's newer 230 Grain HST is an improvement over the old Hydra Shok design.

[Mongo the Mutterer]

A LEO buddy says he carries Taurus Copper found here. (http://www.taurususa.com/products/products-ammo-45.cfm) Has anyone had any experience with these?

[cookekdjr]

Some people have told me that the Ranger T-series is excellent however its only available for law enforcement.
You can find the Ranger line available to the general public if you look around. I see it in the Shotgun News at reasonable prices fairly often.
As for my recommendation, I prefer ball ammo. I'm a homicide prosecutor (about to resume a murder trial in about 15 minutes) and I've never seen a handgun round expand when it only contacted human tissues. This includes a Ranger Talon 9mm round that was used to execute a young woman. She was lying on a bed, the CZ pistol was placed close enough to her chest to leave a burn pattern on her skin, and the bullet went through her heart, exited her back, and was stopped by the blanket she was lying on.
The bullet did not expand at all and suffered only minor defects to its shape.
This is not the exception to the rule. This is the rule.
I've seen stats from the FBI that claim that hp bullets at handgun velocities expand only 60% of the time. The thing is, I haven't seen it happen ever. My guess is, they are using bullets that exited the body and struck other harder objects (like pavement or bricks) in coming up with the 60% figure.
I prefer heavy fmj rounds because they are more likely to fully penetrate and break bones.
-David

[Elmer]

and I've never seen a handgun round expand when it only contacted human tissues.

Hmmm..

I've seen hundreds.... matter of fact, the vast majority did. I held one in my hand yesterday.

Very strange.

[Gunsnrovers]

The answer is way too subjective. Lots of good choices, but you'll get as many answers as you would if you asked what is the best .45/9mm pistol. The "best" is what that person is using. No one is going to say they choose the 2nd best self defense ammo out there.

My favorite choice would be 12 gauge, but if it's just .45ACP, I like the Hornady TAP in 230gr. I find it very accurate and low flash. Much lower then the Federal and Remington loads I used to use. All my 1911's eat it up flawlessly which is the real issue anyway. The best ammo in the world that won't reliably feed in your .45 won't do you much good. :)

[moxie]

Unfortunately, or fortunately as the case may be, I've never seen any actual Glaser shootings. I'm basing my input on commentary by Marshall, Sanow, Ayoob and others. I've seen pictures and X-ray images. These all indicate better performance than you have obviously found. They also function just fine and shoot straight out of my guns. Could you share some of your empirical evidence with us? That would be helpful. Also, how has the newer Federal HST design improved upon the Hydra-Shok. I haven't seen anything empirical on that yet. I know it's being flogged as an LE load, which may make it harder to get for us civilians. It also comes in a 230+P version which gets about 100fps more out of it than the standard version or the Hydra-Shok, which could be a benefit. Thanks in advance.

[Elmer]

I'm basing my input on commentary by Marshall, Sanow, Ayoob and others.

I assumed so. Do an internet search on Marshall and Sanow. The Wound Ballistics community debunked them years ago, in particular Marshall's accounts of Glasers.

[Elmer]

Also, how has the newer Federal HST design improved upon the Hydra-Shok. I haven't seen anything empirical on that yet. I know it's being flogged as an LE load, which may make it harder to get for us civilians. It also comes in a 230+P version which gets about 100fps more out of it than the standard version or the Hydra-Shok, which could be a benefit.

I'm no expert on bullet design, so I'm not in a position to tell you how it works, but I have shot it into gelatin quite a bit. In my chrongraphing, the +P was only 50 or so fps faster than the standard 230. ATK's LE website has some quite good data on it. WWW.le.atk.com

[Gunsnrovers]

Of course ATK wouldn't be biased in their findings.... ;)

[cookekdjr]

and I've never seen a handgun round expand when it only contacted human tissues.



Hmmm..

I've seen hundreds.... matter of fact, the vast majority did. I held one in my hand yesterday.

Very strange

Elmer,
what do you do? Do you work in a medical examiner's office? I'd be very interested in your experiences. Please let me know where you have access to these slugs. I'm very curious.
Thanks,
David

[Elmer]

Of course ATK wouldn't be biased in their findings....

Besides my own testing, I've been at several shoots where the performance was similar, including one that Winchester did. I believe there's several agencies listed on the site that might be able to verify.

There's not much in it for the major's to put unreproducable test results up on their websites. If the WB guys do the same test, with different results, the word gets around pretty quick.

[bakert]

Sounds like some pretty wicked rds here. My P97 ruger feeds everything I've tried and I like the Win Silvertips but being a bit old fashioned I still carry hardball most of the time. May not be the best but some pretty serious shooters out there still use it too.

[Elmer]

Elmer,
what do you do? Do you work in a medical examiner's office? I'd be very interested in your experiences. Please let me know where you have access to these slugs. I'm very curious.
Thanks,
David

Former cop, armorer, consultant, and student of wound ballistics, with a bunch of really good friends. :)

In your position you should have no problem getting data from various police labs. If the labs in your own state won't cooperate, PM me, and I can give you names and phone numbers of folks out here who will. As long as there's no reference to names or cases, most of them will share data with qualified individuals. Also, folks like Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr. Gary Roberts, or Duncan Mcpherson are all reachable and are a wealth of data. Most rangemasters are at least provided with a shooting report, frequently with bullet photo's.

Hollow points not expanding in actual shootings was pretty common years ago, but honestly, with today's better rounds, expansion is the norm. The one that I saw yesterday was a 9mm 147 grain. It had expanded to about .75, and it's retained weight was almost 100%. Some barriers can close up even the best hollow points, but direct fire into living tissue, you can count on today's ammo.

[Elmer]

Also David, take a look at http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm.

Lot's of good reading, and links to a world of information on wound ballistics.

The site is run by Shawn Dodson, who is a member here and posts frequently. Shawn is very helpful if you'd like to contact him.

[cookekdjr]

Hollow points not expanding in actual shootings was pretty common years ago, but honestly, with today's better rounds, expansion is the norm. The one that I saw yesterday was a 9mm 147 grain. It had expanded to about .75, and it's retained weight was almost 100%. Some barriers can close up even the best hollow points, but direct fire into living tissue, you can count on today's ammo.
Hi, Elmer. Thanks for your replies.
The round you saw yesterday/day before, had it been fired through a person?
The reason I ask is that I have not found bullets expanding (even Winchester's Ranger Talons) when they were fired into a person.
I know these rounds expand in gelatin, wet phone books, etc ... but have you seen expanded rounds taken from people's bodies?
Thanks,

David

[Elmer]

Yes, David, it was a bullet removed from a person. I have seen many in person, and far more in photographs.

If you use the links I posted, you should be able to find some good information. One you should look for, is Eugene Wolberg's study comparing recovered bullets from officer involved shootings, with the same rounds fired into 10% gelatin. The bullets performance were statistically identical. It was one of the studies used to prove the accuracy of gelatin testing. If the bullet expands in properly calibrated gelatin, it will expand in tissue. If your people are using telephone books, you may wish to make some changes....

Again, today's better ammunition, not expanding, unless it was plugged from a barrier, would be very strange, and should be cause for concern. I have occasionally, seen a lot of ammunition that was considerably underloaded, which can impair performance, including expansion. Good reason to regularly chronograph ammunition used for duty.

This is why it's so important for bullet performance to be evaluated by trained personnel. Anecdotal information is useless. We've all heard the stories like "the bad guy was shot 19 times with 9mm with no effect." Then when you read the report, the crook was shot at 19 times, and was hit twice, once in the foot, and once in the thumb. Some Gunwriters are famous for throwing these kinds of stories into their articles, usually to help prove, (or promote....), the effectiveness of a particular round or caliber. Look to scientists for your data.... not writers......

[cookekdjr]

Thanks, Elmer, for such a detailed and useful post. I'm going to the report now.
Thanks again,

David

[Elmer]

Thanks, Elmer, for such a detailed and useful post. I'm going to the report now.
Thanks again,

David

No problem. I appreciate someone in your position taking the time to learn about this. Most of the DA's I've worked with could care less.

[don10m]

whoops