[Sir Galahad]

I read somewhere a while back that some company was going to do a reproduction of the Winchester 1887 12 gauge lever action shotgun. I think it was an Australian company. Anyone heard of this or if they ever got this off the ground?

[Soap]

I think the Turkish company Tristar made them.

[Detritus]

ok, first off tri-star is an import company, not a manufacturer, they have/had been trying to a number fo years to get someone to produce an 1887 clone. they had a deal ironed out with a Turkish firm untill the factory was put out of commission by an earthquake.

then they made arrangements with Lithgow of Austrailia (same Co. and factory that made the aussie Enfields, L1A1, etc, basicly the Aussie version of the old Springfield armory) to make the guns, but it now looks as if THAT may have fallen through, Tri-star turned away the first batches to reach the states on grounds that the receiver castings did not meet Spec.

also due to the last Aussie shotgun ban (which took Auto and Pump shotguns out of most folks reach), lever action scatterguns are now REAL sought after, so Lithgow could care less if WE want their gun, or not! they have a built in domextic market....

BTW the tri-star guns would have been between $1,000 and $2,000 depending on who gave you the quote, and yes people DID pre-order and reserve examples. and i can say for a certainty that the first batch released to the Austrailians were BEAUTIFUL........ the first batch (can't remember number) from lithgow were special editions that were sold to Aussie Cowboy action shooters, and i was lucky enough to meet a visiting Aussie shooter that had his Lithgow '87 with him at a match.

there are also rumors that Norinco will be building/bringing in an '87 clone to complement the existing 1897 clones, i don't know if this has been confirmed yet but it HAS been listed in various places by Norinco. the price for the Chinese version was supposedly around $4-500, making it more likely to reach a larger market than what the tri-star import could have or will.

unfortunately there is in truth very little market for an '87 clone outside of Cowboy shooters and those that want the old style guns for collections but can't afford the originals, and/or want a shootable example. so with such a limited market the likelyhood of a sucessful clone are lessened and if one DOES come in the price is going to be heightened by the need for a smaller number of guns to recoup the start-up costs etc.

[MrAcheson]

The Tristar/whomever clone has been in vapor for a while. Rumor has it that some exist in Oztrailia, but none made it to the states due to manufacturing problems and not meeting quality control. Tristar has been saying "a few more months" for a loooong time now.

Norinco is making an 1887. They exist and about 200 of them are in the US as an initial work-out-the-kinks production run. Most of those will probably end up in the hands of pre-order folks. Look for them at the SHOT show this year. Coyote Cap has seen and handled a couple and reported back over at sassnet.com on the SASS Wire.

[9mmMike]

Am I the only one here who is shaking his head at the thought of cowboy action shooters buying Norinco 1887's?
Amazing what folks will overlook if it is an inconvenience to do otherwise. Sad.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt..........
Mike

PS. I saw some promo photos of that Aussie 1887 and it sure did look like a sweet SG.

[MrAcheson]

Lots of people have seen photos of the tristar, but no one has seen the real thing in the wild.

Unfortunately Norinco makes good inexpensive merchandise. There is a reason lots of Norinco 1911s were turning into IPSC race guns. It would be nice if you could just wave your hand and say "cheap commie crap", but unfortunately it ain't so.

[Detritus]

sorry mike but not only is Norinco the ONLY game in town for repro winchester 1897's (and it looks like they are getting ready to be the same for the '87 as well) but they actually are a good product. there is no way on earth that an American company could produce the same gun, at the same quality level, for the same cost. and in fact no american company is willing to do so at ANY price level. they just don't see there being a big enough market for the guns, as well as knowing that any american company would have to charge upwards of a thousand dollars for a gun that except for national origin is exactly the same as the Norinco.

sorry to burst anyone's bubble that thinks otherwise, but probably 90%+ of those interested in buying such guns, when faced with two products that ARE identical except for country of origin and attendant price differences, are going to choose the "commie made" gun that is a quarter of the price of the american made one.

at one time an American company (American Western Arms, AWA) WAS thinking of marketing a winchester '93 (the earlier version of the 1897) clone but this seems to have fallen through, i don't know if that gun was going to be all american produced, or an import . but either way it seems the project has withered on the vine. b/c it now receives no mention on thier website. last year about this time prototypes were present and were being shown at the SHOT show, as well as bing shown around and i think shot by some of the more well known names in the CAS world that used, or worked on the winchester pumps.

as for Norinco 1887s being bought up by cowboy shooters. if i have a choice between a gun that i KNOW will work, not blow up in my face b/c of age, fatigue, or "aw crap if forgot that this old thing is BP only" (all modern '87 clones are actually based on the smokeless proofed model 1901 10ga), that cost under $500. or an unknown entity original gun that for a, supposedly, shootable example will cost near or over $1,000 (this is from the examples i have seen in my area) and it's still not a sure bet it's safe ect. guess which i'm gonna get??!!!? :rolleyes:


MrAcheson has it right. the pics of the tristar '87 have been making the rounds for a good while now. but except for the Lithgow "chisolm trail" limited editions that have been seen at various CAS matches in the hands of visiting Austrailians (which were enough to make most folks who want an '87 drool and go numb) no one has gotten even a sniff of the gun tristar promised. and it looks like we never will. tristar rejected everything Lithgow sent them. but somehow those same guns were bought like hotcakes in Oz and no one has had any troubkle ot of them. i think tristar has offically shot themselves in the foot. if they can't get a batch in country before norinco works the bugs out, they'll lose all chance of selling a gun at 4x the price.

and truthfully i wonder if Norinco is makng theirs from castings, forgings or CNCing them from bar stock? i KNOW the tristar guns had cast receivers, in fact it was questions on the density of the castings that caused tristar to turn away the shipments that had arrived (but same gun receives no bad reports in austrailia where it get USED more). no imagine what happens if the chinese guns ARE forged receivers, that means that a traditionally made forged receiver gun will be selling for less than what tristar wants/wanted for a gun with a cast receiver! i personally have no trouble with a cast receiver, but i know many that do. either way it seems tristar is going to come out on the losing end.

sorry for the length guys.

[Sir Galahad]

It will certainly be interesting to see the Norinco version. They may be commies, but at least we know what to expect from them and do't have any illusions about them. Look how the Germans are stabbing us in the back and people still buy H&K and Walther. To be honest, I'd rather buy firearms from the "commies-we-know" than the commies that claim to be "allies".
:rolleyes:

[9mmMike]

Not to turn this into a political thread but...
The current German regime won the election on a basically anti-American platform. They are merely "staying the course". In reality, they are being very cooperative with regards to the current situation in the important area's. What they say (and the press report) is not exactly what you get.
They surely can not be compared to a nation that enslaves entire families to make sneakers for you to buy "because they're cheaper".
I support any government that wants to get into the free trade game, Russia included but, (and I'm really asking so feel free to answer), where is the Norinco stuff being made? Russia? China? There's a world of difference, in my opinion.
If the US manufacturers do not want my money, fine. But I will not buy a product that has already been paid for by the blood of a paticular country's citizens.
Mike

[Sir Galahad]

Got some bad news for you, Mike. LOTS of things that say "Made in USA" on them use more than 60% Chinese made parts. They are only assembled in the US, but they can say "made in USA" as long as they're only assembled here. Where I work, our products say "Made in USA" on the product and box but most of the parts are Chinese made. Further, most of the ball bearings used in your power tools and other things (oh, like your car) are made in China.

The way to effect change in China is through capitalism and trade. Our embargo against Cuba has only entrenched a dictator and isolated people who, if we traded, would see there's a better life by getting rid of communism. Russians under the Soviet regime knew that their grain was coming from the US when they lived under communism and that's how they knew communism was a BS lie.

[9mmMike]

So that makes it OK?
This is not news at all, for me, but thanks.
I can assure you that my cars don't actually contain much in the way of Chinese parts by the way.
Many folks use the "it's impossible to avoid" excuse to justify their part in supporting the cruelty that is China.
Is it completely avoidable? Certainly not. I am not so naive to suggest otherwise.
I would offer that you might see that there is a big difference in buying a car (probably a necessity) that might contain some Chinese bits and buying a fake vintage SG because you just "have" to have one.
Everything you don't buy, helps.
In the end, you are the one who has to sleep at night and ignorance (and denial) is bliss so you can do what you feel you must. I will do what I feel is right. Freedom of choice obviously does not mean you have to make the right choice.
Please feel free to insert the last word here but I think that we've mucked up this thread enough and I am done.
Enjoy your shotgun.
Mike, out.

[Sir Galahad]

Mike, I apologize if I said something to anger you. That was not my intention.

I'm not buying the 1887. I was just curious to see whatever happened to the repro I heard about. If you check my posts here, you'll see that I'm a Winchester 1300 Defender man myself. :D

As far as Cowboy Action Shooting, I don't play, so I have no need for an obsolete shotgun. Hence, my Defenders. I do agree that CAS using Norinco shotguns is a bit odd, to say the least. But don't get me started on CAS or I'll have to don an airport fire rescue crash suit. :D

At any rate, I respect your beliefs.

[Dave McCracken]

Let's just agree to disagree on this, folks.

As for CAS, it looks like a lot of fun, but...

First off, I got this out of my system at an early age. Haven't wanted to stalk the dusty streets of Tombstone with Morgan, Virgil, and Doc looking for the Clantons since I first shaved.

Second, there's been lots of good doubles and Model 97s bobbed off by this lot, and I dislike seeing history marred.

[Sir Galahad]

Dave, LOL, you're right on the money, as usual! I love you man!!!:D

[Detritus]

dave posted there's been lots of good doubles and Model 97s bobbed off by this lot, and I dislike seeing history marred


that is WHY Stoeger SxS coach guns and the Norinco '97 clones are so popular.

a great number of those who shoot CAS can't stand the thought of "doing what must be done, to be competitive (or in some cases safe)" to an orignal example. nor can they (we, since i am a member of the segment i speak of) stand the thought of subjecting a true period piece to the ABUSE that it will have to endure from a CAS shooter who shoots as rarely as only once every month or two. we KNOW that in a year the average CAS shooter will put more rounds through a such gun than it's had fed to it, in it's entire previous lifetime!! (unless bought from a fellow CAS shooter)

again this is the reason Ruger Vaqueros are so poular (only one class allows blackhawks, the rest require fixed sights), along with Marlin 1894 rifles, and the above mentioned import shotguns.

we not only want guns that are at least somewhat competitive, we don't want to replace them every few years b/c they're too loose or becoming too prone to failure. AND we ARE historically aware, what most of the folks i see shooting original '97s have done is taken borderline but fixable examples with little to no relative collector value due to conditions having nothing to do with function or safety, and sent them off to the likes of "coyote Cap" (Marty Ahlman Jr) for rework/rebuild into a match gun.

also to answer your "i got that out of my system..." comment.... some of us gravitated to it b/c it's one fo the few shooting sports where the focus (after safety) is almost entirely on having FUN, when i was shooting matches (had to sell my guns to clear medical bills) i was able to at single match, shoot with folks who ranged from "never shot anything but a .22 before" all the way up to a then reigning world champ (Tequila aka Richard Young, a 3 time Modern class champ) and never in that entire time was i snubbed by ANYONE. and everyone had fun. i can't say as much for most of the rest of the shooting disciplines i've tried. and this comes from a guy who never HAD the wild west "stalk the dusty streets of Tombstone with Morgan, Virgil, and Doc looking for the Clantons " fantasy. i got into it b/c the guns themselves interested me, when i started out on this road i literally thought it was gonna be like an IDPA match with 19th century guns.

so Dave, everyone is entitled to their oppinion. but i think you may be being a little harsh on those of us who choose to shoot CAS.

[Detritus]

there is currently a thread about he "Norinco" '87 clones over ont he SASSwire. a forum like this one, maintained by the Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) for use by it's members adn others interested in the sport.

the following was posted by Martin J. Ahlman Jr. (aka Coyote Cap) the man that currently is considered one of if not THE gunsmith to have your CAS shotgun worked over by.


Quote: There were several of the 87's recently released by IAC for "field testing". Those of you that have one of the "field testing" guns should have had problems with single shot re-loading (left extractor not having enough clearance between the rim of the cartridge and the frame).

Of the units I have evaluated so far, only one has passed this test. There is a cure for this and it is called "Accuracy" tolerance milling at the factory.

Also, the guns will eject just fine if another round is on the carrier and under the first fired round. If not,the last fired round will stick straight up in the breech, or hang onto the extractors.

The problem is in the left carrier pivot arm. It has a cam on it that was incorrectly made. This cam needs to cause the flipper arm (ejector) to pivot upwards at a good speed in order to hit the empty hull with enough force to eject it cleanly over the shoulder of the shooter.

Otherwise, the hull (if ejected incorrectly) could hit you in the side of your face, or land on your hat. Not good at all !

These and other problems (not any of which are serious) are being dealt with prior to full production release.

Those guns in the field are there to see what else might possibly break.

Interstate Arms Corp would like very much for these guns to be reliable and well made and work correctly right out of the box.

One fact is for sure, they are very strong, with good deep bluing and outstanding American Walnut buttstocks and forearm pieces.

I don't think the bolt safety will be included in full production models, unless heavily modified so it isn't so tall and it is easier to operate.

A longer hammer spur and deeper tang cut (so the new, longer hammer spur will clear) may see it's way into production.

The mainsprings all need to be lightened and the lever (spring loaded) pivot needs to be cleaned up so it won't pinch your hand when shoving the lever hard forward.

The chambers need cleaning up and the forcing cones cut longer (deeper).

The front sight bead is too small for CAS and I suggested additional barrel lengths need to go into production.

The barrel lengths and choke constrictions I suggested are:

.740 - (supercylinder)- - - 18" barrel "Riot Gun".
.730 - (Cylinder bore)- - - 20" barrel "Cowboy Gun".
.720 - (Improved Cylinder)- 24" barrel "Skeet Gun".
.710 - (Modified choke) - - 26" barrel "Sporting Clays" gun.
.700 - (Full Choke) - - - - 28" barrel "Field Gun".
.690 - (Extra Full choke) - 30" barrel "Turkey Gun".
.680 - (Super Full Choke) - 32" barrel "Goose Gun".

I hope some of the above information meets with approval.

My two cents worth end quote

the thread where this appeared is available here (http://www.sassnet.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=061134)

seems the prototype versions of gun have a few faults but so did just about every other machine ever prototyped. we'll see

[Sir Galahad]

I dunno...Some of the folks I've seen in CAS were just as competitive and amped up with "WIN, WIN, WIN" as some other types of matches. I looked nto it, but, let's see, I HAD to have two revolvers (even though the majority of folks in the "Old West" never carried two revolvers after the advent of cartridge arms), and a rifle and a shotgun. There was no way to just enter the rifle or shotgun or a pistol match; you had to do it all. On top of that was all the fancy duds you had to have. Now, I know some folks have fun doing it. But, to some, it seems like a fashion show with firearms. And the 1897 is used just because it was in the movie "The Wild Bunch." I hear tell the reason some folks started getting Schofields was to shave a few seconds off their time. I'm sure I'll strike a nerve here saying this, but it's just m opinion. It looked like fun to me, but I couldn't afford (or justify) the outlay for weapons I can't use anywhere else, clothes I can't wear anywhere else, and ammo I wouldn't shoot anywhere else. But, others can and that's great for them. But please forgive some of us who find it a little, well, not for us.:D

When all's said and done, though, folks shooting no matter what it is---CAS, ISPC, and just plain shooting is a GOOD thing for all gun owners.:D

[Detritus]

i have to ask this, did you ASK about minimum requirements at a particular club?? did they say "don't even show up unless you have all 4 guns and a well thoguht out costume"?? group i shot with threatened to "prop me up ont eh firing line with a board" if i didn't get up their willingly, and started digging around in their "spares" cases for guns, holsters and ammo to give me.

when i left the sport i had my rifle, shotgun and one pistol, adn was gladly offered the remaining gear the whole way to that point. as i said, sadly i had to sell ALL my gear to cover bills.

if you go to a SASS affiliated club and are NOT told to "get your tail up here! lack of (whatever piece[s] you're missing) is no excuse to NOT have fun!!" you've found a really rare bunch.

all you NEED clothing wise are Jeans, a long sleeve shirt (a safety as well as a "period" consideration), and perferably pre-1900 style foot wear. but most of these conditions are liable to be waived for a first timer shooter. the preference is to get you shooting (and therefore hopefully addicted), THEN get you equiped :D .

[Dave McCracken]

Detritus, forgive me if that sounded harsh, but you're only getting part of the story.

I was born in 1946. Pop was a history buff, and we did the Civil War Centennial re-enactments.By the time I headed off for college, I'd been on the battlefields of Manassas,Winchester,Antietam, and Gettysburg,in uniform.

The folks were raising Quarter Horses, and had friends that owned and ran Frontier Town, a small theme park nead Ocean City, Md. I got a bit of this there, working a few summer weeks as an Apprentice cowboy and gunfighter. This was also where I decided to not be a professional bronc rider.

First cartridge firing handgun I bought myself was a Colt SA. Wish I still had it.

IOW, I've done plenty of hands on history and decided it's not my thing.

As for other folks doing CAS, I've no problem with that. This is still America, barely. More shooters of any firearms and shooting games, the better. If I sounded snide, please accept my apology.

And I always have fun shooting, from benchrest to popping tin cans or landfill rats. Of course, being a flaming extrovert helps...

My big objection to CAS has to do with the alteration of various historical firearms. T'is certainly less objectionable to shorten the barrels on well worn or restored antiques, but I'm sure there some historically important arms out there getting abused and altered.