Very Confused about CMP and the M4


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crazyneddie
April 13, 2005, 11:06 AM
Hi Folks, I would like to shoot an upcoming CMP match Saturday and I'm having trouble getting info on the different classes of rifle and where / if my M4 will fit in. I did see the update on the NRA rules to allow for Flat top receivers. But it says that a carry handle MUST be used with A2 sites able to zero at 600 M. So here are my questions....

1. I have an ARMS a40 standard. Are they saying I cannot use it and have to get a carry handle? I thought there were classes of rifle that allowed for optic, etc. I only wish to use irons but would hate to have to go buy a carry handle. Could an LMT fixed A2 buis be used, or is it the handle they are set on? I know that will elevate to 600

2. Can I use a collapsible stock? It said in the rule book an A1 could be used, but our troops are issued plenty of M4's with collapsibles, right? Anyway it's a standard new collapsible stock.

3. My barrel is 1/7 16" so I am all set with the 69 gr + ammo for 600 m

I know I'm greedy for info but 1 more please.....
I know there is some difference in the carry handle you need to order for the carbine for the proper elevation or sight hieght but not any specifics? Anyone know more about this?

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Jon Coppenbarger
April 13, 2005, 11:42 AM
This might not help but you need to talk to the match director and see what he allows.
He is flexible on his rules and I do not know of a local CMP match that you could not use that rifle.
Having said that here are the exceptions. It is up to the match director to decide if he allows only certain rifles and follows it the way a EIC match is run.
If he does that he may allow a mid match at the same time also which you could shoot.
What it basicly means you shoot out of the competition but you only compete against match rifles unless your rifle meets the EXACT rules of a service rifle.

If it is a reduced match your rifle should do fine as far as shooting and hitting the target. If it is a match out to 600 yards HAVE you tested it at 600 yards and does it reach 600 yards for sure with your sights?

I know you want to compete but if it is a 600 yard match trying it out at a match with out having already tested and zeroed your rifle for 600 yards might be fun for you but is totally unfair to others shooting.

Please talk to the match director as he can tell you what he allows and what he can do for you.
All we can do is quote you the rules and what we allow here.
I am a director that runs regional and state matches plus lots of other matches. Yes I would allow you to use it as a match rifle only but if you could not get it on the target you would be asked to remove the rifle for the safety of the others.
Jon

Steve Smith
April 13, 2005, 11:47 AM
Your rifle is too far from Service Rifle spec to be able to change one thing and get it to comply. You will fire in Match Rifle category with that rifle. I would suggest you just shoot it with what you have. If you have a brake don't go please, but if you have a flash hider or nothing on the end you're just fine.

Things you'd have to change to be Service Rifle eligible:
Carry handle (full height 600m [at least yard] A2 rear sight is preferred, A1 or A2 config is required)
20" barrel
non-collapsible stock, of either A1 or A2 specifications.

Jon, I am guessing that since he's in RI he isn't shooting an EIC. The reduced EIC is 500 yards, and the whole state is about a football field in length. It is probably a CMP "fun" match :barf: and in that case he could probably shoot a blunderbuss and not not come to grief.

To the original poster: If it is a plain ol CMP "fun" match or M1 Garand qualifying match or whatever else, you will be fine period as long as you don't have a brake. If it is an NRA Highpower match, you will fire as a Match Rifle. If it truly IS a CMP EIC match, I don't believe you will be allowed to fire at all, unless there is a "side" match for Match Rifle shooters. This is highly unlikely as I really doubt that an EIC is happening in RI at all. The CMP authorizes regular matches (what I call a fun match) and EICs as well. Chances are you're going to a fun match.

To add to what Jon said, not only should a rifle be removed if it cannot stay on paper at 600 due to safety, but due to respect to others at the match. A rifle (and more likely a shooter) who frequently misses the entire paper at 600 will cause distress in the pits with surrounding pit pullers, and will possibly put hits on other targets, causing them to be pulled when the other shooters have not fired. It is quite possible (it has happened to me) that the shooter is preparing to fire when his target is pulled away...it's too late and the shooter fires as the target drops out of sight. As every shot is scored and there are no alibis in slow fire, you are down 10 points because someone else can't keep their gun on the paper at least.

I don't mean to be derogatory, but this is the sort of thing that makes a good competitor...respect for other's performance and their match experience.



.

Langenator
April 13, 2005, 12:45 PM
I guess this begs the question then:

Given CMP's stated mission, and,

Given that most Army troops whose primary job involves close combat (Infantry, Armor, Combat Engineers, MPs) are now issued rifles with 14.5" barrels, collapsible stocks, and if they're using CCOs, generally a hodgepodge of BUIs,

Should CMP adjust their rules, maybe even create an entire new division and/or match format specifically for such carbines?

crazyneddie
April 13, 2005, 12:48 PM
Good info, thanks. Actually it is 600 yards it is in Massachusetts. You are right the longest range in RI is 200 yards. I used the 25 yard zero and have tested it at 200 yards with the Large recticle and it was right on. I have no 600 yd facilty to actually test it. The ARMS literature with the sight said 550-600m for the small recticle. Could it be that far off? (Disreguarding my ability, strictly speaking sights)

Since I have to drive 3 hours rd trip, I don't want to do it to be denied.

crazyneddie
April 13, 2005, 12:53 PM
Also, just to ease your minds if I thought there was a chance I wouldn't hit the paper I would NEVER compete and ruin everyone else's shoot or risk any danger.

444
April 13, 2005, 12:58 PM
I have nothing to add here, but I would like you to let us know how all this turned out and how you shot.
I am sure you will have fun.
Best of luck.

crazyneddie
April 13, 2005, 01:27 PM
I think I will just stay local and skip it as I definately want to shoot Saturday, and don't want the aggrivation of driving all that way for nada. So I'll wait & try to get a good answer from the mAtch director. Bummer I was looking forward to it; but the season is just beginning. Thanks for the info.

Quintin Likely
April 13, 2005, 02:11 PM
If it doesn't have a muzzle brake on it, you'll be alright. Brakes are noisy and distracting, and when you're shooting prone, they'll throw up a lot of dust.

I guess this begs the question then:

Given CMP's stated mission, and,

Given that most Army troops whose primary job involves close combat (Infantry, Armor, Combat Engineers, MPs) are now issued rifles with 14.5" barrels, collapsible stocks, and if they're using CCOs, generally a hodgepodge of BUIs,

Should CMP adjust their rules, maybe even create an entire new division and/or match format specifically for such carbines?
Soldiers and Marines still qualify with the M16A2/A4. Service rifle shooting has a lot of tradition in it, I don't really see the CMP or NRA acknowledging the M4 and variants thereof as a service rifle or creating a specific class for them. That's not to say that it can't be shot as a match rifle, and that you can't have fun with it. You'll be at a disadvantage to the space and bolt gun match rifle crowd and other service rifle shooters though.

Langenator
April 13, 2005, 02:41 PM
Soldiers (not sure about Marines, never having been one) qualify with M4s, too.

I guess my point is, why have a category called 'service rifle' when you can't shoot the current issue infantry rifle/carbine (or, given the reality of NFA/FOPA, the closest civilian analog) in that category?

Rockrivr1
April 13, 2005, 03:05 PM
Crazyneddie - Is this match up in Reading or in Danvers? If it's in Reading then it will most likely be a NRA Highpower Match and those guys are pretty competative. They do allow a little leeway in that I've seen people compete with muzzle brakes and a shorty or two. I don't believe they will allow you to use a M4 though. I've shot in thier matches a few times and I've never seen a M4 yet. I've never shot at Danvers so I couldn't tell you how strict they are.

Steve Smith
April 13, 2005, 03:07 PM
Crazyneddie, I would highly suggest you contact the Match Director and clear this up first...maybe you can still go, but you should definitely ask first.

Langenator, the rules allow for the standard issued rifle, not ever variant imaginable. The AR is so modular that you would turn Service Rifle into an equipment game post haste if you allowing every variant known to exist...why...some AR variants are even issued with a scope! The rules were just changed this year to allow the flat top receiver in order to reflect the modern standard service rifle's build, or at least the most common variant. I would guess that we will not see any further rules changes for Service Rifle compeition until another rifle becomes the commonly issued rifle to the troops. If you want to shoot variants, you shoot in Match Rifle class, alongside Service Rifle shooters. Of course, Langenator, your BEST resource for changing the rules (I am guessing you aren't even a HP shooter now...why are you bitching about rules in a sport you don't even compete in?) is to petiton the NRA and CMP Rules Committees with a written proposal for rules change. The addresses are in your rule books. You do have a rule book for each, right? You can't complain if you don't know the rules, can you?

:scrutiny:

crazyneddie
April 13, 2005, 03:36 PM
Hello rockriver1, it's actually in Braintree, I know those guys at Reading are into it, they don't want me to shoot untill I come and watch. Derek Hoskins is having clinic up there in May so I'll just go to that. I understand where they are coming from and I don't want to mess up thier Competition either. I would have no problem, but it's too far to drive just to watch with no Trigger Time. I'll be out for the next one though you can bet.

Rockrivr1
April 13, 2005, 03:57 PM
If the shoot is at the Braintree Rifle and Pistol club then you don't have to worry about shooting out to 600 yrds as they only have a 100 yrd rifle range. Most likely will be using reduced targets to simulate the 600 yrds. I only know of two 600 yrd ranges in Mass. They are in Reading and Danvers. There might be one way out in western Mass, but I think the longest out there is either 300 or 400 yrds.

At Braintree thought, I'd also recommend talking to the person running the match. At 100 yrds they might let you participate with an M4 just to get you hooked.

If you go, good luck. It's tons of fun.

crazyneddie
April 13, 2005, 04:53 PM
I'll let you guys know how I make out, thanks

Steve Smith
April 13, 2005, 04:55 PM
Short of replicating the entire match in Smallbore form, the Reduced Course is the best live-fire way to improve your Highpower skills. Fine tune them on the short course and then learn the wind.

Jon Coppenbarger
April 13, 2005, 06:01 PM
Please as myself and others have said call the match director. The club I belong to has like 20 match ar15's and I do loan them out if I know in advance they are coming and we also provide the ammo for the cost of it.

The reduced matches most of the time is a bring what you have to shoot.
There are exceptions to that also. Here in CO out of the say 6 reduced ranges around here that hold matches 5 of them are pretty much bring what you like. But the other one pretty much follows the letter of the rules.

A good ideal of what to expect is this. The ones that are bring your own what ever usually has between 5 to 10 shooters show up. The one that follows the rules strictly has at least 20 to 30 and they cut it off at 30 and usually turn folks away unless it is a championship match then they will take 40 shooters.

We want you to come and shoot and there are lots of venues for the beginning shooter every place. alot of times if you call ahead they will squad you with a experienced shooter at a reduced match and most of the time they will let you use their mat and scope and give you help.
It does make it a more enjoyible experience.
Like the match you mentioned in Mass they want you to come watch and learn if you are new before you shoot. They are a experience group and are really trying to compete and sounds like they are real serious about it.
A reduced match has alot of down time if you have a couple of relays and lots of time to watch and observe how things go.
Compared to a XTC match you are always doing something and you have NO break as if you are not shooting you are either scoring or pulling targets in the pits. There are also some XTC matches for beginners that have even the basic equipment.
For a example of how it goes for a experienced shooter for the ones that have no ideal and think they should be able to do what ever they wish.( not you crazyneddie) as you are trying to learn and find out the info.
usually you are squaded with folks of your own or as close as possible skill level. And the more experienced shooters are given the right to shoot first as they have paid their dues so to speak. But more so to have shooters of like skills shoot in the same conditions to see who actually shoots the best that day in the same conditions.
This time I get two shooters, one a expert and the other one the first time he has done the 600 yard target thing on my position. First match of the year and its a good match for the beginners so its no big deal and it did or does not bother me in the least. The old saying what does not kill you makes you stronger.
Now in the slow stages its not a easy wind to shoot in. I like to shoot my off hand in like 13 to 15 minutes at the most. After 10 shots I am already at like 13 minutes with 10 shots to go. The second 10 I was faced with like up to 20 mph winds so I shot a 97-3x in the first 10 shots and a 89-1x in the last 10 shots. Others that had a experienced pit puller that are at the same skill level were done in like 14 or 15 minutes and mine took over 20 minutes. The same at 600 yards I like to be done with my 22 shots in less than 12 minutes it took me like 21 minutes. did all that cost me the match by the 2 points well most likely it did but I also use that for a learning experience as I got to make almost twice the wind calls as my counterparts did. It will help me down the road big time so thats why I did not complain at the match. Now instead of causing stress on the new shooter in the pit during slow fire 600 yard stage after my first 4 shots were marked wrong and it was taking up to like 40 seconds for the target to come up I just told the scorer not to call for a remark but just tell me what he thinks it is and if I do not agree I will say something. Or you are shooting next to somebody with a muzzle brake and it is a rapid and everytime they shoot it throws rocks and debris in your face not counting the muzzle blast.

Just go learn and have fun and if you like it you will have the other matches to shoot later.
Jon

hipwr223
April 14, 2005, 09:13 AM
The question has been asked since the M4 in its shorty configuration is so widley used why not allow it??

The CMP and the whole service rifle program is not about combat or military tactics, it is about marksmanship. Teaching and developing the the fundamantal skills to handle a rifle from 200 to 600 yds in supported and un supported positions.

Back in the 1940's the same questions could have been asked. Why not use the M1 carbine or the Thompson? They were both issued in great numbers. The answer is to learn and develope the fundamentals of rifle shooting you really need to shoot a rifle ,Not a subgun, not a carbine. (not to mention how impractical it is to try and engage targets at 600 yds with carbines and subguns)

When a shooter can master the the positions and skills for National Match Course shooting it is very easy to master the other variety of sub guns, carbines, and tactical rifles they may encounter. The same can not be said about doing it in reverse.

John

Langenator
April 14, 2005, 10:21 AM
I think hipwr223's answer that it's about marksmanship, not the rifle, is the best answer. Although I will maintain that the M4 is different from weapons such as the M1 carbine, Thompson, or M3 greasegun in that none of those were ever that standard issue weapon for the Army Infantryman, which the M4 is right now.

And to answer the question, I have shot high power in the past. The local club is pretty relaxed-I was allowed to shoot with a K-31. I'd love to do more of it, but work keeps me off the range, except when I'm watching the Privates shoot.

hipwr223
April 14, 2005, 09:48 PM
You are right that the M4 is hard to compare with the M1 carbine, but the US Govt did buy 7 million M1 Carbines so the argument is there that it was general issue as well.

For the record I have ZERO problem with guys shooting the M4 in either NRA highpower or CMP EIC matches. The issue is that anyone shooting an M4 carbine is going to be at a SEVERE handicap. I have never seen an M4 that will shoot 1/2 MOA out to 600 yds. This in a time when a well constructed A2 will shoot that with great ease. Lets not foget the sight radius issues either.

Langenator
April 15, 2005, 01:21 PM
For an actual 600m range, I agree that any shortie is going to be at a servere disadvantage. For folks like me who are limited to shorter ranges (Mid-Carolina uses 100m only), not so much.

Although, for the record, if I do get a chance to start shooting again, I've got an A2 type (ban-free, of course.)

ted murphy
April 17, 2005, 09:44 PM
Unless your heart is set on shooting your little popgun, why not see if they have loaners?

I know our club has 15 Garands and 2 brand new match grade AR's we bring out for both the CMP and "fun" sessions.

Ted

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