[joseph187]

is it true that tungsten waterfowl can penetrate up to level 2 armor? the main reason buckshot cant do it, is because it's lead, so i figured tungsten shot is alot harder, and coming a good bit faster, so will this work?

[armoredman]

None of our harmless hunting or target ammo is intended to penetrate armor of any kind....

[joseph187]

pretty much any rifles can penetrate up to level 3, and a large hunting caliber like the .300 mag could even get through level 3 rifle plates, so do you consider them harmless hunting rounds?

[Preacherman]

The velocity of shotgun loads is insufficient to penetrate armor with the light weight of the projectiles they fire. If you work out the momentum of a single shotgun birdshot pellet (mass multiplied by velocity) you'll see that it doesn't even come close to a .22LR bullet, much less a centerfire rifle round that can penetrate armor. Whether or not it's made of tungsten is irrelevant.

[armoredman]

Joseph, read it again - intended to penetrate. That is a little tongue in cheek at the people who got things like steel cored 7.62x39mm banned by building pistols for it, rendering it instantly AP ammo in BATFE's eyes....that kind of thing. Legally available ammunition has the capability of penetrating all kinds of barriers, whether designed to be bullet resistant or not. Catch my drift yet?

[joseph187]

yeah, i got you armoredman. why would you need an AP 7.62x39 when they already penetrate any body armor that you would find somebody wearing on the street? is that for penetrating armored cars or something?

preacher, tungsten waterfowl shot is moving relatively fast. and when your talking about penetrating kevlar, it's better for the bullet to be smaller. for example a 7.62x25 can get through level 2 armor while the .44 mag cant.

the mods can erase that if you want, because the liberals might try to ban the cz52. man they're stupid. they try to get the 5-7 banned wich is around $800 because they think teenagers will trade in their $150 lorcins in for the $800 5-7 to go kill cops. when anybody who knows anything could go out and get a cz52 that can go through a cops vest for little over $100. could somebody explain why liberals havn't tried to ban the cz52?

[Preacherman]

Joseph, you're not listening. Penetration of any round is a function of its momentum - bullet mass multiplied by velocity. A very light bullet, moving very fast, can penetrate; so can a heavier bullet, moving more slowly. However, there is a definite "cut-off" point where bullet energy (momentum) will not be sufficient to penetrate a vest.

Because each individual shotgun pellet is so small and light (in birdshot sizes), it would have to be moving at three or four times the usual shotgun velocity to generate enough energy to be sure of penetration. The average shotgun load exits the muzzle at about 1300 fps, plus-or-minus 100 fps (for hottish loads). This is way too slow to give that ultra-light pellet enough energy to penetrate a vest. In fact, it's too low an energy figure for the smaller pellets to penetrate skin at any distance - I've been hit by #8½ pellets at a range of about 40 yards, and they stung, but did not draw blood.

As for 7.62x25 rounds, if you compare the weight (mass) of their bullet to the weight of a #3 shot pellet, there's a vast difference... which explains why the bullet can penetrate a vest, whereas the pellet can't.

[LaEscopeta]

(I’m not bothering to look any of this up, so I’m sure someone with a better memory then me will correct the parts I get wrong (all parts?))

As stated above, penetration ability of a projectile is a function mass and speed. And because bird shot pellets have low mass, they have to travel faster then a heavier projectile to have the same penetration ability.

But energy increases with the square of the speed, and a little extra speed goes a long way in increasing penetration ability.

And penetration is also a function on how hard the projectile is. Full metal jacket rifle bullets penetrate better then simple lead ones of the same mass and speed because a lot of the energy in the lead bullet goes to deforming it, while almost all the energy in the jacketed one can go to penetration.

So because they are harder and go faster, I think tungsten shot is a better penetrator then simple lead shot. Enough to get through level 2 armor? I don’t think so, considering level 2 stops 124 grain 9 mm full jacketed handgun bullets going 1175 ft per second:

http://www.justnet.org/txtfiles/BodyArmorStd/NIJSTD010103.html

A 9 grain BB pellet will have to be going 4361+/- feet per second to have the same energy as that 9 mm bullet. I don’t know what kind of shotgun can get this sort of velocity, but I know I don’t want to shoot it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

WARNING! Lecture starts below!

The momentum of a projectile is its mass multiplied by velocity (m x v).

The energy of a projectile is its mass multiplied by speed squared (m x s^2).

(For this discussion velocity is the same as speed.)

So a 230 gr .45ACP bullet going 800 feet per second has the same momentum as a 115 gr Remington 6.8mm SPC rifle bullet going 1600 feet per second:

230 gr x 800 fps = 184,000 gr-ft per second
115 gr x 1600 fps = 184,000 gr-ft per second

But the rifle bullet has TWICE the energy:

230 gr x (800 fps)^2 = 147,200,000
115 gr x (1600 fps)^2 = 294,400,000

(Someone else can figure out the units.)

Energy is the ability to do work, including the work needed to tear/rip through threads of kevlar or ballistic nylon fabric, or the ability dent/crack/puncture metal/ceramic plates. In general the more energy the better pentrator.

But this does NOT mean a small fast bullet always penetrates better then a heavy slow one.

It depends how concentrated the projectile’s energy is on the point of impact, and how much energy goes to deform the projectile vs. penetrating. A 32 gr .22LR bullet penetrates much better then a #1 buckshot pellet (that weighs about the same and travels about as fast) because the energy in the .22 bullet is concentrated in a smaller area. The .22 bullet has a shaper point then the #1 pellet, and a smaller diameter (.22 vs .30).

Also, metal jacketed bullets penetrate much better then simple lead ones that have the same mass and speed, because a lot of the lead bullet’s energy goes to deforming the bullet. Hollow point rounds are designed to have the most deformation, to have the least over-penetration.

So penetration ability of a projectile is a function of speed, mass, shape, size, hardness and deformability of the projectile. And the relationship between all of these factors is beyond our current ability to compute. That is why there is so much ballistic gelatin testing, and why the Department of Justice spends so much time/money testing body armor by actually shooting it, rather then trying to figure it out with math/physics:

http://www.justnet.org/txtfiles/BodyArmorStd/NIJSTD010103.html

[Edited to correct spelling.]

[Feanaro]

A bullet resistant vest rated at Level II can stop many 9mm and .357 Magnum rounds. Level IIIA, the standard for LEOs who don't require concealment, will stop a SLWC .44 Magnum round going 1,400 FPS. No matter what you make it out of, most shotgun pellets simply don't have the velocity to penetrate armor. They are small, which does help, but they lose velocity quickly(low mass) and aren't traveling too fast to begin with. Even a level IIA vest will stop a .22 going as fast, or faster, than most shotgun pellets.

[joseph187]

actually stopping .44 slug at 1400 fps isn't impressive, specially when your usually talking about a semi-wadcutter, wich is solid lead wich will never penetrate well. alot of tungsten shells move 1600+, and are a type of very strong steel, wich will penetrate much better than lead.


but what about quadrangle buchshot? i've only seen this on the internet, and they act like it's only available to the army. i saw armor piercing 12 gauge slugs in delta force catalog. but i would rather have a pistol with AP rounds than a pump with armor piercing slugs. but armor piercing buckshot would be good.

where can you get quadrangle buckshot? can citizens get it legally? i could see why it wouldn't be legal though. i would rather have 8 rounds of quadrangle, than a full auto AK. and if it's not legal, what does it consist of, and how could i make it out of, lets say a super x shell, i took the shot out of? they act like it's just square shots.

btw, please lets not get on the cop killing subject. usually when you post anything about trying to make AP rounds for pistols, or finding a way to get a shotgun to go through, people assume your going to go on a massacre of cops. just to let you know, body armor is easier to get than guns, so anybody could have it.

and if i did make quadrangle, i think you do this by cutting steel squares, and replacing them for the lead shots. wouldnt i need to coat the steel squares in teflon to make sure it didn't destroy my barrel?

[JShirley]

Quadrangle is LEO-only.

Discussing ways to make SBA-piercing rounds is not really welcome here. Speculate all you want- elsewhere.

John

[blackrazor]

why is everyone so afraid to discuss certain aspects of firearms performance, such as AP potential? Let's not BS ourselves, one of the aspects of firearms is their ability to kill people, and sometimes people wear armor. If you're too afraid to discuss the reality of guns as weapons because of what the Brady bunch might do... you've lost the fight before it even began.

Anyway, what's this quadrangle stuff, I've never heard of it. Any links? Also, LEO-only, does that mean it's illegal to possess, or just frowned upon (which means nothing).

[JShirley]

to make SBA-piercing rounds

Feel free to search for my name and body armor. Noting potential is one thing, discussing ways to make AP is another.

As far as I know, AP is only controlled in legislation (federally) based on metal content. http://www.mkballistics.com/special.htm I want to say that SWAT did a review on similar ammo some time ago.

John

[joseph187]

if it's legal, why is it not allowed? and the only armor piercing rounds not legal, is pistol and rifle rounds with a steel core, and not a lead core. there are plenty of types of steel shot shells.

but my geuss as to what it is, is roughly cut iron squares coated in teflon. teflon so the rough edges dont shread your barrel. so my geuss would simply be find scrap metal squares around the size of regular shot in buckshot, and take a 2 3/4, or 3 inch shell, open the crimp up, and put the teflon coated steel squares in the place of the lead shot.

i saw one opened up, and the squares looked very rough, and were no where near perfect squares.

and yeah shirley, any shotgun with a magazine capacity over 2 rounds would be illegal to do just about any kind of hunting without a plug. so anybody who has a magazine extension on a shotgun, would do that for tactical reasons, ie killing people.

i have 1 gun i use to hunt, and it's a winchester m-70 .308. the rest are either pistols or tactical shotguns. and occasionally i'll have an assault rifle, (not now). and again i only use the .308 for hunting. i keep a 8 shot winchester 1300 with a pistol grip, loaded with 00 buck beside my bed, and i dont plan on any deer coming in my house. and i doubt anybody else who keeps a shotgun loaded by their bed, has it for deers and bears. and again armor is easier to get than guns, so it's alot more common among criminals than you would think. not that i need armor piercing buckshot to kill somebody with a vest, i mean 8 rounds of buckshot is around 90 something bullets, im sure they'll hit in more places than his chest. but it would be nice to have armor piercing buckshot rounds.

[JShirley]

187,

It is said that conspiracy is the easiest crime to prove. Leave potentially problematic issues off this board.

occasionally i'll have an assault rifle

Yeah? Which fully-automatic weapons have you had? If one "needed" armor-piercing capability, all one has to do is use a decent rifle.

John

[Correia]

Joseph, I'm guessing that you are new at this kind of thing. No offense is intended my friend, we all learn new things every day.

As was pointed out by Preacherman (who has probably seen more people actually killed with a 12 guage than anybody else on this board) small shot lacks the momentum to penetrate at any sort of distance. Your velocity bleed off is incredibly fast. Your individual pellets lack mass. You could make Plutonium #6 shot, and it would not penetrate a vest.

The quadrangle round is four pieces. Each one with a high individual grain weight. It is a totally different design. Heavy, hard, pointy, and fast. Note that heavy, hard, pointy, and fast is the key to penetrating anything.

And John Shirley knows a bit about killing, and has probably done more serious thinking about it than most. However his AP round was 81mm. I don't think it would have a problem with level III. Even if it didn't penetrate to the guy on the other side of the level III, he would be concussed into the consistency of paste. :)

If you are looking for penetration with a small arm, use a rifle. Pretty much any rifle will beat the pants off any shotgun. I'm one of the biggest shotgun nuts on this board, I'm willing to bet that none of the long time posters here are going to argue that fact. But outside of my house or close quarters, I would use a rifle.

And to address your last post, when used within its effective range, shotguns still need to be aimed. And past that effective range, that spread is more dangerous to bystanders than the badguys. So in reality, your 90 pellets are still just eight aimed shots.

-Larry Correia
www.FBMGINC.com

[BlkHawk73]

I see someone is making friends and a good impression here at THR. :rolleyes:

Sounds like the same questions being asked until the wanted answer is gotten. Some just don't take the hint. :banghead: