[BHP9]

I was speaking to a stranger at our shooting range yesterday and we were discussing rifles. I mentioned the fact that I had read on the net about a hunter in Africa being killed by an elephant and his rifle, which was a Remington 700, was found laying near by with the bolt broken off. Speculation running both pro and con toward the "Big Green".

Well sir, the old man smiled and said, "Mr. I want to show you something that will eraise all doubts as to what really happened to that poor devil.

Well Gents he pulled out not ONE but FIVE Remington bolts that had their handles broken off. He attributed this to faulty soldiering of the bolt handles which he claimed was done by machine not by hand.

Well, says I, is this simply a problem of quality control or a combination of that and also one of poor design. He smiled and said only, "Did you ever see a quality weapon like say, a solid forged Mauser 98 bolt fall off"?

End of conversation, End of report.

[BigG]

What was he doing with five broken bolts in his range bag?

I would agree with the idea that it looks like the Rem guns have the same quality control now as the American auto manufacturers had around 1975. They are looking for any and every way to cheapen the designs, it seems to me, even at the risk of endangering their users. I would not want to pass down a lot of these current weapons to my heirs.

[Art Eatman]

BigG, some folks carry stuff like that around as conversation starters.

The sad thing about all this is that we have no info about the dates of manufacture of the "baddies". Could have been a short-term problem during a production run, for instance. This puts a cloud over thousands of rifles with no QC problems.

"Soldering": Silver solder? Normally, that's a pretty secure process.

Overall, though, I'd rather see some parts and pieces made as near to unbreakable as physically possible. "Do it right, or take up a new line of work."

Art

[BHP9]

What was he doing with five broken bolts in his range bag?

Good queastion and it was one that I asked him about. It turns out he was a gunsmith and also a had a gun shop. He has quit selling Remingtons except only on special order. Right now he is pushing Savage 110's and he kept the Remington bolts to steer customers toward the Savage line of products. He said he had other problems with Remingtons and the headaches were not worth the all the trouble of stocking them.

I tend to agree with Arts comments. I do know some people recently that did buy Reminton Varmint rifles and so far their bolt handles have not fallen off. I shot a synthetic stocked heavy barrel 22-250 with a new trigger spring kit installed a week ago and easily put 5 shots in 1/2 inch at 100 yards. This is one reason why Remingtons are so popular.

[Quartus]

First time I've heard of this, but this thought comes to mind:


A varminter is not usally in danger of his life. An elephant or Cape Buff or lion hunter very well may be. So an adrenaline charged yank on a bolt handle will stress it just a tad bit more than a varminter reloading for a next shot. Which is usually not done for a quick follow up, just by the nature of varminting. I know, a running coyote would require that. But still, there's not the same adrenaline energy behind it.


So a charging elephant just might be a bad way to find out that silver solder is great for sights, but not for bolt handles!


To each his own, but I sure wouldn't trust my life to it!

:what:

[762x51]

After seeing this now I feel even better about having Badger Ordnance install one of their knobs on my 700P. :p

[BHP9]

To each his own, but I sure wouldn't trust my life to it!

Here, Here, Quartus , as the English say. I share your views.

By the way ground hogs can be dangerous. A fellow nimrod who's name I will not mention for obvious reasons once cut loose on a ground hog and missed 5 times at close range. The ground hog actually came after the the shooter who hot fotted it to my automobile. I was sitting behind the wheel at the time preocuppied with volumes of hysterical laughter. When the shooter got to my automobile I locked the doors so he could not get in and in desperation he leaped up on the hood of the car to escape the wrath of said gound hog. Feeling some empathy for the marooned shooter I then drove off to escape the enraged ground hog with the shooter clinging for dear life on the hood of my car.

He was using a Remington 700 of ancient vintage and the bolt handle did hold but next time we visit that area I told the fellow shooter to play it safe and use another type of weapon.

[WYO]

My 4WD pickup is more prone to rollover accidents than a passenger car, but I still drive it. Some people say my Beretta slide is going to cream me in the face, or the locking block will break, when some crazed crackhead attacks me, but I still carry it. Some people say my wife’s Glock will blow up in her hands, but she still carries it. Now I am told that my bolt handle will break off on my 700. I guess I’ll make the first shot count and keep carrying it, because I like it for a number of reasons.

We can't guard against every possibility. All we can do is make informed decisions and perform inspections for signs of failure. If something rises to the level of a recall, I'll send it in.

[Nero Steptoe]

Yeah, it takes a real man to "hunt" an elephant. IF the story about the Remmy 700 and the elephant hunter is true, (which I doubt) the guy got his just rewards.

[Quartus]

BHP9, you just got nominated for the funniest story on THR! :D


Uh, if I ever go shooting with you, I'll remember how you treat your friends! :what:

:D


Friend of mine had filled his tags, so he was shooting prairie dogs out in Wyoming. Had a comfy spot on a hillside overlooking a dog town about 100 yards off, and was popping them off with a Smith 29 in 8 3/8 .44 mag. He had his back against a tree, and was using his knees for a rest. During a lull, he noticed one pop up between his feet.

Just in line with his muzzle.

So he fired.


The prairie dog counter attacked! :what:

.
.
.
.

By splattering all over his boots! :D

[Gewehr98]

Right now he is pushing Savage 110's and he kept the Remington bolts to steer customers toward the Savage line of products.

:scrutiny:

(having myself witnessed a Savage bolt head retaining pin shear at the wrong moment...)

[Porter Rockwell]

Hello, having been around guns for far too many years I will believe that most any gun can break But-
I've seen exactly two Remington extractors fail and three Savage roll pinned bolt heads break and zero factory bolt handle failures.
Really, to have a local yokel in Bohunk City USA to claim that HE has had five in his lttle corner of the world break!!??
Nope, sorry folks, since the advent of the net we should have heard abot this the same as with the Glock Ka-Booms complete with digital images.
Somebody has an agenda,
Best!

[Steve Smith]

Is that all mechanical devices can fail. They are designed and built by humans, just like you and I. Monday hangovers and Friday night dates happen. All of this is well beyond your control and knowledge. Perhaps the best method regarding dangerous game is still the tried and true double rifle, with two independent actions in one gun. But even that can fail.

The final answer may just be to inspect your equipment as carefully as you can before you engage, say a prayer, write a will, and file your front sight down, just in case.

[Wildalaska]

Here in Alaska, where rifles are routinely trashed, I can assure you that the Remington service center has not seen any problems with bolt handles falling off...

Thats not to say that it has not occured...everything can be broken...everything...

[BHP9]

SO, just like BHP9, this guy with all the broken bolts had an agenda...

Agenda's come from real life experiences Geweher and although I regard the Remington 700 as a great play rifle and a good value for the money I would never use it in any serious situation. I have personally seen it fail far too many times. Broken extractors, failures to feed, live rounds that pop out of magazines. A tinny stamped sheet metal trigger that proved a failure in Viet Nam and even on the pristine grassy boulevards of your local shooting range. The first thing that I recommend is replacing the trigger with a good aftermarket job. I just feel safer getting rid of the thing as soon as possible. I have seen far to many Remingtons fire when set too to light a pull, far more than with other rifles.

If you want low price and a super accurate gun this gun is for you and this is why it has alway been so popular, certainly not because of its reliabilty under harsh conditions or its safety or workmanship or quality of materiels used in its construction or its gas escape system.

[RTownsend]

762X51 I think the Badger knob is just a knob that is screwed onto the factory bolt handle after it is cut off and threaded. The weak spot is where the bolt handle joins the bolt body. To beef up the Remington bolt to avoid this problem it should be sent to Jeff Hicks (http://www.gad.net/Shooting/LevelHead/PSS/Gunsmithing.html). I don't have personal experience with him but he is well respected among many people on another site I visit.

I've known of one handle to break off of a Remington. It was a long 90+ F. day on the range during a rifle class. The guy had been shooting really hot ammo in really hot weather. He justified it by saying it was loaded for the rifle by the gunsmith that built the rifle:rolleyes:. He was blowing primers and having to jerk the bolt back on most rounds. It finally locked up hard and he preceded to try to hammer the bolt back with a piece of wood. He later broke the bolt off then carried it back to the gunsmith.

I think the rifle did good to hold together as well as it did that day. Major abuse from the operator.

[Quartus]

I haven't looked at how the bolt handle is attached on a 700 (sold mine many years ago) but I DO know that silver solder is not a good choice for any joint that has shear forces applied to it.

[Wildalaska]

I would never use it in any serious situation. I have personally seen it fail far too many times. Broken extractors, failures to feed, live rounds that pop out of magazines. A tinny stamped sheet metal trigger that proved a failure in Viet Nam and even on the pristine grassy boulevards of your local shooting range. The first thing that I recommend is replacing the trigger with a good aftermarket job. I just feel safer getting rid of the thing as soon as possible. I have seen far to many Remingtons fire when set too to light a pull, far more than with other rifles.

Cmon, with all due respect who are you kidding? You complain that a rifle slam fires when the trigger is set too light? I have seen HUNDREDS of Remingtons with PROPERLY done trigger jobs with no proble,m...is it the gun or the gunsmith>?

I personally do not like the extractors..neverthelss, they are in fact reliable...I have seen "village guns" that were so abused that they were literally falling apart and the extractors still worked. In fact, I ve seen one held together with duct tape that still functioned and shot accurately enough considering the bore was like a rusty pipe.

Enlighten me please as to your personal experiences....

If you want low price and a super accurate gun this gun is for you and this is why it has alway been so popular, certainly not because of its reliabilty under harsh conditions or its safety or workmanship or quality of materiels used in its construction or its gas escape system.

Tell that to the villagers in Alaska who are still using their daddy's blue Remington 700s (well they used to be blue) in 243 to shoot grizzly bears...


WildilikeSakosAlaska

[Gewehr98]

If you want low price and a super accurate gun this gun is for you and this is why it has alway been so popular, certainly not because of its reliabilty under harsh conditions or its safety or workmanship or quality of materiels used in its construction or its gas escape system.


Yup, that's why the U.S. military snipers are running Sako's, Howa's, Tikka's, and CZ Mauser clones. Oops, those M24's and M40's are Remington 700 variants? How DARE they?! Don't they know they're gonna get killed when their bolt handles break off? :scrutiny:

I'd be more worried about getting caught between a Ford Pinto and an Audi 5000...

[Badger Arms]

I'll raise the BS flag. Sounds like a bag of crap to me. I have, however, seen the bolt handle on a Remington 788 broke off.

[762x51]

RTownsend:

Thanks. I thought they were talking about where the knob itself meets the rest of the handle. Oh well....wither way I'm really not worried.

[MarineTech]

Sorry, but I have to agree that this is seriously starting to sound like BS.

Let's look at a few things here.

1) I'm not really going to touch on somebody carrying 5 broken bolts around just to educate everyone he meets on Remington. I find this questionable, but I've met stranger people in my life.

2) The story about the elephant hunter. I've checked and the largest caliber that Remington offers in the 700 is .375 Remington Ultra Mag. While quite a stout cartridge, this is not an elephant cartridge by any means. Why would it be used to hunt an elephant? Doubtful.

3) Also in the story about the hunter, it states that the hunter was killed and the rifle was found nearby. Where was his guide/PH? A major part of their job is to protect the hunter in case something goes wrong. So, where was he? Again this causes doubt.

4) If this story about the hunter was indeed true, and the hunter was found after the attack, how do we know that the bolt handle seperated prior to the attack? I would be more inclined to believe that the bolt handle seperated during the period where the elephant was busy pounding this guy and his rifle into their component atoms.

I'm sorry, but this just dosen't add up. Compound that with the fact that Remington has always been pretty up-front about recalling defective rifles in the past (turning off safety fires rifle). I'm just not convinced on this one.

[BusMaster007]

Remington does offer large caliber rifles in their Custom Shop listing:

http://www.remington.com/firearms/custom/fi_700abg.htm

http://www.remington.com/images/firearms/700abg.jpg


http://www.remington.com/firearms/custom/700SKSST.htm

http://www.remington.com/images/firearms/700SAFSS.JPG

One would surmise that they have a 'custom way' to attach the bolt handles here, uh, so they don't get ripped off during a charge by man-eating beasts...:rolleyes: :D

[BARRY]

Unless mfg methods have changed,Remington used to use copper berillium washers to weld the bolt handle to the bolt body.This was the strongest way to attach them at the time. I have no idea if they still use this method or not, but I know they made many rifles with bolt handles attached this way and no reports of handles falling off. I'm guessing methods have changed. I read in The Varmint Hunter of a custom or 40X rifle that had this happen the first time they shot it!

[BHP9]

Yup, that's why the U.S. military snipers are running Sako's, Howa's, Tikka's, and CZ Mauser clones. Oops, those M24's and M40's are Remington 700 variants? How DARE they?! Don't they know they're gonna get killed when their bolt handles break off

I would suggest that anyone who is really interested in how good a gun the Rem.700 is should read the various books by Peter Senich. He details the developement and use of military sniper rifles which includes the history of the Rem.700 in Viet-Nam.

I think the big myth that most people seem to be mesmerized by is two fold.

1. They believe that military test trials prove the worth of weapon to be used in combat.

2. They believe the militaries always adopt the best weapons availabe.

Facts are nothing could be farther from the truth. Military test trials have often proved to be nothing more than dog and pony shows and are often even altered to get their favorite weapons passed. A case in point was alowing the water to drain out of the barrel of the M16 to allow it to pass the blow up tests in the U.S. military test trials.

Many small arms have been adopted down through the years by the various militaries only to prove less than adequate for the intended use. Examples are many but include the German Luger, the M16, the Beretta 92, the Japanese Nambu, the Rem.700 etc. etc.

[BHP9]

I read in The Varmint Hunter of a custom or 40X rifle that had this happen the first time they shot it!

Since the 40x is nothing more than a custom Rem. 700 the evidence seems to be piling up in regards to this problem

All things considered if one really is worried about this there are many better ways to permanently attach the bolt handle through the services of a custom gunsmith. It is a problem that is fixable if one is married to the Model 700.

This is not why I would not use one. The very weak extractor of the 700 is the more serious problem along with the fact that it is a push feed weapon that carries with it all of the problems all brands of rifles have using push feed mechanisms, mainly the problem of double feeding and rounds falling out of magazines when the rifle is not held in the verticle position. Rounds also pop out of magazines far more often in push feed weapons than with controlled feed weapons. It does not happen every time but does indeed happen.

It would not be such a serious problem if the 700's extractor were easily replaceable without special tools but unfortuately this is not the case. Even the push feed post 64 Winchester can have its extractor replaced rather quickly with a few simple tools. Not as ideal under emergency conditions because of possible loss of parts compared to the one piece huge claw extractor of the pre-64 Win. or 98 Mauser but the Win. post 64 M70 is still a better choice than the 700 Remington.

I often shake my head when I see some of the worlds militaries adopt what they think to be is the latest and greatest sniper rifle which often turns out to be a push feed that is also in most cases about impossible to strip or repair in the field.

The 98 Mauser and even some of its clones are the far better weapons to be used in rough conditions but this entails a higher cost per weapon that does not fit in with the modern philosophy of the worlds militaries which is namely faster production time with the lowest cost in materiels, which often also dictates lots of sheet metal and plastic used in construction. You see this more in the semi-auto snipers but the Remington has plent of stamped sheet metal too (trigger guard, floor plate, follower, trigger parts etc.. Some of which proved inadequite even for the military. I saw one Rem Sniper two summers ago that had its original stamped sheet metal trigger guard replaced with one of a more robust construction. It still was not the equal of the heavy duty trigger guards as seen on Mauser military rifles.

Perhaps someone who is financially independent should send an original Mauser Military sniper rifle to the U.S. military. Upon arrival they would go into shock. "Gad Zooks" they would say. It looks like some new form of super sniper rifle. The engineering is like nothing we have ever seen before. I wonder which country invented such a marvelous weapon.

I am not exaggerating. A video camera would prove it upon arrival.

[Badger Arms]

Okay, BHP 9, it is clear that you hate the Remington 700 and love the Mauser 98. Blah, blah, blah. That's all I'm hearing in your arguments. You began the thread with a likely ficticious story about a guy that carries broken bolts around in his range bag and a supposed story about an elephant trampling a guy after his Remington broke.

Point by point: Anything you read is not the truth by nature of its having been written. If you have read these things, great, show us proof!

1) "The Varmint Hunter." What's that? A book, magazine, internet site? The bolt handle receives minor stress in firing, it WILL NOT BREAK when the gun fires unless both Mauser style locking lugs shear off.

2) There are better ways to attach a bolt to the body? Yes. By welding as in the Mauser 98 or by mechanical means as in the Savage 110. There is nothing wrong with silver soldering though.

3) The Extractor: Yes, this part can fail but does not fail with significantly more frequency than extractors on most other bolt actions. Contrary to your contentions here, most people don't walk around with a spare extractor for their Mauser 98. Maybe the old stranger with the broken bolts also had a bag of spare extractors. Replacing this is a very simple process of drilling out one rivet and restaking it. Requires one special part, the staking tool. Heck, I can make one in about 5 minutes if I wanted to.

4) Push Feed: Fact is, the Mauser 98 feed system is no more reliable than the Remington. I can turn my M700 to any angle up, down, upside down, sideways and the 700 feeds reliably every time. When the rear of the cartridge clears the magazine, the front of the cartridge is already far enough in the chamber to prevent it from 'falling out.'

5) I've never had a round "Pop out of a Magazine" as you contend. I don't know where you're getting that.

6) You seem to contend that the Mauser is more accurate and more suitable to Military Service. I disagree. The Remington 700 is more accurate by far. It's a product of a ballanced action and a plunger ejector. The plunger places a consistant, repeatable force on the cartridge case so that the cartridge is in exactly the same orientation each time you fire. The blade ejector and claw extractor cannot copy this and the resulting loss of accuracy potential is enough to count.

Walk down a range at any centerfire rifle match and count the number of rifles that do not have plunger ejectors... I'm waiting. I'd like to have a video camera there.

All this said, and I might agree with you. From a reliability standpoint, the blade ejector will be more reliable than the plunger ejector. Strange that you didn't list that in your critique. I think that there are rifles out there that are MORE reliable and rugged than the Mauser 98. Let me say that I think the Sako 75 is better. From Sako's standpoint, the Mauser 98 is more expensife to manufacture, has a weaker receiver, has lesser bolt shear area, has a two-point lockup rather than a 3-point, utilizes vastly inferior magazine, etc.

[BHP9]

1) "The Varmint Hunter." What's that? A book, magazine, internet site? The bolt handle receives minor stress in firing, it WILL NOT BREAK when the gun fires unless both Mauser style locking lugs shear off.

Its a magazine. Barry, not I posted this in this very thread. I am sure Barry could tell you what month's issue he read this in.

3) The Extractor: Yes, this part can fail but does not fail with significantly more frequency than extractors on most other bolt actions. Contrary to your contentions here, most people don't walk around with a spare extractor for their Mauser 98. Maybe the old stranger with the broken bolts also had a bag of spare extractors. Replacing this is a very simple process of drilling out one rivet and restaking it. Requires one special part, the staking tool. Heck, I can make one in about 5 minutes if I wanted to.



Anyone who has had extensive experience with the REM700 will disagree with you on this one. I have seen them break with regularity on the National Match courses that I have fired on. You also just proved my point about the special tools it takes to repair the Remington extractor when it does break. Not a good design for a military rifle. And soldiers in the field have indeed packed spare firing pins & extractors for weapons that could be replaced in the field something not very practical with the Rem. 700.

4) Push Feed: Fact is, the Mauser 98 feed system is no more reliable than the Remington. I can turn my M700 to any angle up, down, upside down, sideways and the 700 feeds reliably every time. When the rear of the cartridge clears the magazine, the front of the cartridge is already far enough in the chamber to prevent it from 'falling

B]4) Push Feed: Fact is, the Mauser 98 feed system is no more reliable than the Remington. I can turn my M700 to any angle up, down, upside down, sideways and the 700 feeds reliably every time. When the rear of the cartridge clears the magazine, the front of the cartridge is already far enough in the chamber to prevent it from 'falling [/B]

If you do this often enough sooner or later it will fail. I have personally seen it happen on the National Match course where shooters fire thousands of rounds through their weapons. Its courses like these that really seperate the well designed weapons from the mass produced commercial models. Most civilians never shoot their rifles enough to have even the remotest concept of the design deficiances of many modern made bolt action rifles. To them it is just unbeliveable that their favorite smoke pole could be anything but perfect in every way because they have not seen the things that come to pass from heavy and rugged use of the weapon.

[6) You seem to contend that the Mauser is more accurate and more suitable to Military Service. I disagree. The Remington 700 is more accurate by far. It's a product of a ballanced action and a plunger ejector. The plunger places a consistant, repeatable force on the cartridge case so that the cartridge is in exactly the same orientation each time you fire. The blade ejector and claw extractor cannot copy this and the resulting loss of accuracy potential is enough to count.

First let me state that I never said the Mauser 98 was more accurate than the Rem. 700. What I did say was that the Rem was a very outstandinlgy accurate rifle but so is the 98 Mauser. Accuracy alone is not the sole criteria for a sniper rifle. It must also be reliable and here is where the Remington has failed time and again (See Peter Senich's books on a detailed historical performance of the weapon). The miltary had to and still does completely rebuild the rifle because in its civilian version it is not rugged enough for combat use. Still there is only so much you can do with this design and there are a lot of other rifles out there today that are far better for military use than the Rem 700.

Your story about the pluger ejector is really a new one on me. Although I have never agreed with this theory, for years it was thought that the force of the pluger style ejector actually had a negative effect on accuracy because it actually cocks the cartridge sideways within the chamber and many match shooters actually mark their brass so as to insert them in the same orientation for more consistant accuracy from shot to shot .

[Stinger]

I seem to remember seeing in this thread that guns break; ALL guns break. 100% accurate statement. There are NO exceptions. The 700 is very reliable, as is the Mauser, Sako, etc, etc, etc.

Who cares what the military is using. I would imagine that far more Remingtons are bought by Joe Consumer every year than GI Joe. If Remington was putting out an inferior product, they wouldn't be in business very long, or selling thousands of rifles and shotguns every year.

If you have an axe to grind, take it to the tool shed.

Regards,

Stinger

[clem]

Man, I sure hope my Rem 700 BDL that I bought in 1970 is okay?

[LevelHead]

They break off.

http://www.gad.net/Celt/BoltMod/toreoff.jpg

Celt over at the Sniper's Hide has an awesome mod which I've had done to my rifle:

http://www.gad.net/Shooting/LevelHead/PSS/Gunsmithing.html

Not saying it's ever happened to me, but I know it's happened.

[Badger Arms]

Give me a break :D

The 788 with a broken bolt that I mentioned earlier was because of a bad reload that had jammed the action. The guy took a length of pipe and inserted the end of the bolt to 'pry it open.' Needless to say snapped off rather quickly. I'll tell you what, next time my bolt handle breaks off, I'll eat crow.

[Wildalaska]

Anyone who has had extensive experience with the REM700 will disagree with you on this one. I have seen them break with regularity on the National Match courses that I have fired on.

Sorry I agree with him and WADR to you, I think I have seen far more Remingtons used and abused by you...the extractors are not prone to breakage under normal use and hold up generally well under abuse....

I am still waiting to hear about YOUR personal experiences that leads you to trash Rem 700s...

WildwaitingAlaska

[cratz2]

Originally posted by BHP9More bolts falling off of Remington 700's
I was speaking to a stranger at our shooting range yesterday and we were discussing rifles. I mentioned the fact that I had read on the net about a hunter in Africa being killed by an elephant and his rifle, which was a Remington 700, was found laying near by with the bolt broken off. Speculation running both pro and con toward the "Big Green".

Well sir, the old man smiled and said, "Mr. I want to show you something that will eraise all doubts as to what really happened to that poor devil.

Well Gents he pulled out not ONE but FIVE Remington bolts that had their handles broken off. He attributed this to faulty soldiering of the bolt handles which he claimed was done by machine not by hand.

Well, says I, is this simply a problem of quality control or a combination of that and also one of poor design. He smiled and said only, "Did you ever see a quality weapon like say, a solid forged Mauser 98 bolt fall off"?

End of conversation, End of report.

What was he doing with five broken bolts in his range bag?

Good queastion and it was one that I asked him about. It turns out he was a gunsmith and also a had a gun shop. He has quit selling Remingtons except only on special order. Right now he is pushing Savage 110's and he kept the Remington bolts to steer customers toward the Savage line of products. He said he had other problems with Remingtons and the headaches were not worth the all the trouble of stocking them.

I tend to agree with Arts comments. I do know some people recently that did buy Reminton Varmint rifles and so far their bolt handles have not fallen off. I shot a synthetic stocked heavy barrel 22-250 with a new trigger spring kit installed a week ago and easily put 5 shots in 1/2 inch at 100 yards. This is one reason why Remingtons are so popular.

To each his own, but I sure wouldn't trust my life to it!

Here, Here, Quartus , as the English say. I share your views.

By the way ground hogs can be dangerous. A fellow nimrod who's name I will not mention for obvious reasons once cut loose on a ground hog and missed 5 times at close range. The ground hog actually came after the the shooter who hot fotted it to my automobile. I was sitting behind the wheel at the time preocuppied with volumes of hysterical laughter. When the shooter got to my automobile I locked the doors so he could not get in and in desperation he leaped up on the hood of the car to escape the wrath of said gound hog. Feeling some empathy for the marooned shooter I then drove off to escape the enraged ground hog with the shooter clinging for dear life on the hood of my car.

He was using a Remington 700 of ancient vintage and the bolt handle did hold but next time we visit that area I told the fellow shooter to play it safe and use another type of weapon.

Agenda's come from real life experiences Geweher and although I regard the Remington 700 as a great play rifle and a good value for the money I would never use it in any serious situation. I have personally seen it fail far too many times. Broken extractors, failures to feed, live rounds that pop out of magazines. A tinny stamped sheet metal trigger that proved a failure in Viet Nam and even on the pristine grassy boulevards of your local shooting range. The first thing that I recommend is replacing the trigger with a good aftermarket job. I just feel safer getting rid of the thing as soon as possible. I have seen far to many Remingtons fire when set too to light a pull, far more than with other rifles.

If you want low price and a super accurate gun this gun is for you and this is why it has alway been so popular, certainly not because of its reliabilty under harsh conditions or its safety or workmanship or quality of materiels used in its construction or its gas escape system.

I would suggest that anyone who is really interested in how good a gun the Rem.700 is should read the various books by Peter Senich. He details the developement and use of military sniper rifles which includes the history of the Rem.700 in Viet-Nam.

I think the big myth that most people seem to be mesmerized by is two fold.

1. They believe that military test trials prove the worth of weapon to be used in combat.

2. They believe the militaries always adopt the best weapons availabe.

Facts are nothing could be farther from the truth. Military test trials have often proved to be nothing more than dog and pony shows and are often even altered to get their favorite weapons passed. A case in point was alowing the water to drain out of the barrel of the M16 to allow it to pass the blow up tests in the U.S. military test trials.

Many small arms have been adopted down through the years by the various militaries only to prove less than adequate for the intended use. Examples are many but include the German Luger, the M16, the Beretta 92, the Japanese Nambu, the Rem.700 etc. etc.

Since the 40x is nothing more than a custom Rem. 700 the evidence seems to be piling up in regards to this problem

All things considered if one really is worried about this there are many better ways to permanently attach the bolt handle through the services of a custom gunsmith. It is a problem that is fixable if one is married to the Model 700.

This is not why I would not use one. The very weak extractor of the 700 is the more serious problem along with the fact that it is a push feed weapon that carries with it all of the problems all brands of rifles have using push feed mechanisms, mainly the problem of double feeding and rounds falling out of magazines when the rifle is not held in the verticle position. Rounds also pop out of magazines far more often in push feed weapons than with controlled feed weapons. It does not happen every time but does indeed happen.

It would not be such a serious problem if the 700's extractor were easily replaceable without special tools but unfortuately this is not the case. Even the push feed post 64 Winchester can have its extractor replaced rather quickly with a few simple tools. Not as ideal under emergency conditions because of possible loss of parts compared to the one piece huge claw extractor of the pre-64 Win. or 98 Mauser but the Win. post 64 M70 is still a better choice than the 700 Remington.

I often shake my head when I see some of the worlds militaries adopt what they think to be is the latest and greatest sniper rifle which often turns out to be a push feed that is also in most cases about impossible to strip or repair in the field.

The 98 Mauser and even some of its clones are the far better weapons to be used in rough conditions but this entails a higher cost per weapon that does not fit in with the modern philosophy of the worlds militaries which is namely faster production time with the lowest cost in materiels, which often also dictates lots of sheet metal and plastic used in construction. You see this more in the semi-auto snipers but the Remington has plent of stamped sheet metal too (trigger guard, floor plate, follower, trigger parts etc.. Some of which proved inadequite even for the military. I saw one Rem Sniper two summers ago that had its original stamped sheet metal trigger guard replaced with one of a more robust construction. It still was not the equal of the heavy duty trigger guards as seen on Mauser military rifles.

Perhaps someone who is financially independent should send an original Mauser Military sniper rifle to the U.S. military. Upon arrival they would go into shock. "Gad Zooks" they would say. It looks like some new form of super sniper rifle. The engineering is like nothing we have ever seen before. I wonder which country invented such a marvelous weapon.

I am not exaggerating. A video camera would prove it upon arrival.

Its a magazine. Barry, not I posted this in this very thread. I am sure Barry could tell you what month's issue he read this in.

Anyone who has had extensive experience with the REM700 will disagree with you on this one. I have seen them break with regularity on the National Match courses that I have fired on. You also just proved my point about the special tools it takes to repair the Remington extractor when it does break. Not a good design for a military rifle. And soldiers in the field have indeed packed spare firing pins & extractors for weapons that could be replaced in the field something not very practical with the Rem. 700.

B]4) Push Feed: Fact is, the Mauser 98 feed system is no more reliable than the Remington. I can turn my M700 to any angle up, down, upside down, sideways and the 700 feeds reliably every time. When the rear of the cartridge clears the magazine, the front of the cartridge is already far enough in the chamber to prevent it from 'falling [/B]

If you do this often enough sooner or later it will fail. I have personally seen it happen on the National Match course where shooters fire thousands of rounds through their weapons. Its courses like these that really seperate the well designed weapons from the mass produced commercial models. Most civilians never shoot their rifles enough to have even the remotest concept of the design deficiances of many modern made bolt action rifles. To them it is just unbeliveable that their favorite smoke pole could be anything but perfect in every way because they have not seen the things that come to pass from heavy and rugged use of the weapon.

First let me state that I never said the Mauser 98 was more accurate than the Rem. 700. What I did say was that the Rem was a very outstandinlgy accurate rifle but so is the 98 Mauser. Accuracy alone is not the sole criteria for a sniper rifle. It must also be reliable and here is where the Remington has failed time and again (See Peter Senich's books on a detailed historical performance of the weapon). The miltary had to and still does completely rebuild the rifle because in its civilian version it is not rugged enough for combat use. Still there is only so much you can do with this design and there are a lot of other rifles out there today that are far better for military use than the Rem 700.

Your story about the pluger ejector is really a new one on me. Although I have never agreed with this theory, for years it was thought that the force of the pluger style ejector actually had a negative effect on accuracy because it actually cocks the cartridge sideways within the chamber and many match shooters actually mark their brass so as to insert them in the same orientation for more consistant accuracy from shot to shot .

[cratz2]

Well, I'm tired of hearing about second hand experiences about the 700 bolt heads. I've had nothing but positive experience with a not inconsiderable number of the 700 rifles so Remington Customer Service just received the following email from me:

Sir or Madame,

I've been reading of broken bolt handles on the 700 Series rifles quite a bit lately possibly due to the handle being poorly soldered to the bolt. While not my favorite, I've personally had nothing but positive experience with Remington rifles over my shooting career but would like to see this addressed personally. There seem to be a handful of folks Hell-bent on knocking the Remington 700 Series in regards to said broken bolt handles and extractors that fail more regularly than Ruger, Winchester etc... One gentleman even told of a gunsmith that produced no less than five bolts from a range bag that he had personally worked on that had fallen off.

If this is true, it is a serious problem and should be admitted to and addressed immediately even if only to say there was a problem that has been addressed. On the other hand, if it's not true, it is libelous situation you are in and something should be done about that as well.

The thread can be viewed here: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13483 if you would like to see it personally. This is a major website that gets lots of traffic, much of it new shooters looking for advice on what equipment to buy.

Regards,

Christopher Ratz

We'll see what their response is.

[Tamara]

Perhaps someone who is financially independent should send an original Mauser Military sniper rifle to the U.S. military. Upon arrival they would go into shock. "Gad Zooks" they would say. It looks like some new form of super sniper rifle. The engineering is like nothing we have ever seen before. I wonder which country invented such a marvelous weapon.

I am not exaggerating. A video camera would prove it upon arrival.

Why? Are the captured ones in the museum invisible or something?

Prose is a little purple today, ain't it? ;)

[dongun]

Cratz, I sent a similar message to Remington's Customer Service on Friday after reading this thread. So far no response. They said it would take 2-3 business days. Should get a response today. I'll let you know.

[HerbG]

My first Remington 700 series rifle was a model 722 that I bought new in the late 50's. Since then I've probably owned a dozen or so Remington bolt guns. I've never had a mechanical failure of any kind - bolt, extractor, ejector - nothing! They have all fed every single round flawlessly in spite of the fact that the feeding process is "uncontrolled." Guess I've just been lucky.

[Art Eatman]

The 700 has been in production since 1962. I haven't a clue as to how many have been made, but I'd really be surprised at 100% perfection in quality control. Heck, even Mercedes has a few lemons rolling around out there! I note that Remington ain't perzackly trying to be the Mercedes of gun-makers, either.

In 41 years, if broken bolt handles were any notable problem, most of us would have heard about it. That's the sort of gun-store gossip that spreads like wildfire...

Art

[dongun]

I got the reply from Remington. It included several statements about their quality control and customer service. Only one statement specifically concerning the bolt problem, and I quote:

The Model 700 bolt handle incident is not by any means a common problem with our firearms.

I read this to mean, that although the problem may not be common, there have been incidents. They suggest anybody with the problem should contact their customer service department.

[Badger Arms]

Really? You mean that if you tell them your bolt handle broke off, they wouldn't deny it? I bet that some barrels have been bent too. Does that mean it's Remington's fault?

[Mike Irwin]

"Agenda's come from real life experiences..."

Or, as is often more the case, agendas come from real life prejudices with no real experience to back them up...

Then there's also the situation where agendas arise because of some personal, hidden, benefit from promotion a specific position or product.

Just something to think about.

[MrAcheson]

Speaking as an engineer, soldering is not a good method of fixation for parts that see structural loading. This part sees the equivalent of light structural loading. As such I would rather see some sort of secondary fixation in there (like a pin or screw). Under light use its probably fine, but with heavy use (or the occassional bad QC) some of them are going to fail.

Not sure about the fatigue properties of silver solder either, but I'm betting its a case of when the bolt is going to fail rather than if it will. Aluminum frames are like this as well though and they have become accepted by the firearms community. Like aluminum frames the bolt will eventually brake, but it may take decades for most users.

[meathammer]

I had a completely different and somewhat interesting failure

with my Rem 700 in 7mm mag. My Dad and I were hunting late

season for whitetails and it was about -5 degrees with the wind chill.

When it was time to go home for the day, I went to unload before climbing down from the blind and the bolt was STUCK.

Well I knew there was a problem, and I didn't want to case the rifle loaded, so I wrenched the bolt handle up (bare handed, not with tools.) This was extremely difficult! :banghead: I pulled back on the bolt to extract the cartridge, still stuck. Now this probably wasn't the best way, but I don't know what else I could have done. I pointed the muzzle down toward the ground (in case of an AD) and I wacked the bolt handle HARD with the palm of my hand 3 times. Bolt came loose, and so did the brass. The bullet was lodged in the chamber. The action filled up with powder (obviously), what a mess.

Dad being the comedian he is, says, "Boy, I told you to buy a Winchester!"
Ha, Ha, Ha, right?

Well I took the rifle to a gun smith, he pounded out the bullet, called and said the head space was too tight. He said he saw this on a few 700s in the magnum calibers.

The rifle was fixed, no charge. The bolt survived me beating the snot out of it. I guess my bolt is sturdy enough! :)

The rifle has been a gem ever since. Accuracy still excellent. BUT I always bring along a backup rifle when I go hunting. :cuss: Happens!
I still like Remington by the way. I just have bad luck sometimes.

Sorry about length of post.

[Nero Steptoe]

There've been several comments in this thread about the inherent weakness of a soldered-on bolt handle. Do we know for sure that the bolt handle isn't welded on??

[BHP9]

There've been several comments in this thread about the inherent weakness of a soldered-on bolt handle. Do we know for sure that the bolt handle isn't welded on??

Scroll up a few replies and look at Level Heads picture of the Remington Bolt handle that came off.

P/S. Only two days ago I ran into a fellow shooter that used to compete in matches with me. In the conversation that followed we spoke of the current problem of Reminton bolts falling off. He is a big fan of the Remington but told me his bolt handle fell off last summer when he got a round stuck in the chamber. He is a powerful man and gave the bolt handle a wack with his bare hand and it came right off.

Nuff said.

The original high quality Military Mausers although made by many countries had in most cases the bolt handle and the bolt machined out of one solid block of steel. In other words most of them were not welded on they were one solid piece of metal. I have seen more than one gunsmith bend a bolt for scope use on Military Mausers and when they beat the hell out of the bolt handle with a large hammer it did not break or crack or fail in any way.

Few people today have any conception whatsoever on what a quality bolt action rifle is or should be. The sad facts are that few if any rifles short of custom built Mausers made from scratch can even remotely compare to the Mauser rifle both in terms of quality, safety and reliability under extreme conditions. I'll pass on most modern rifles made of cheap castings, sheet metal and plastic.

[warrior23]

I have several Remys and Had one bolt come off.I now have all my bolts upgraded by Jeff Hicks with the badger speed bolt handle.i highly recommend this upgrade.

[Handy]

I'm not really much of a bolt guy, but this does seem like a silly way to make some thing that has to stand up to leverage.

On another note, why is the Remington so popular? It doesn't seem much different than the Winchester 70. Most comparison tests give better accuracy marks to Brownings, Rugers or even Savage.

Is it just an old standby, like the 870 shotgun, or is there some hidden magic?

[BHP9]

I'm not really much of a bolt guy, but this does seem like a silly way to make some thing that has to stand up to leverage.

In big game hunting or in soldiering when your life may be on the line it makes a world of difference. A stuck case in the chamber is often very diffucult to remove as many match shooters will attest to. The super strong claw extractor of the Mauser does not slip off or break like many modern rifles extractors do. The bolt handle of the Mauser will take a tremendous amount ofabuse as compared to the more modern econo-mass produced rifles.

As far as accuracy. The Remington company has always put very good barrels on their 700's and they take a back seat to no rifle in terms of accuracy. You must actually get up into the super heavy massive actions of the custom bench guns before the level of accuracy surpasses the Remington. This is why Remington rifles have always been so popular. They are cheap in price and very accurate and the avearge owner is a sand bag plinker. He has no need of the ultimate rugged rifle which of course the Mauser has always been. The average rifle shooter today knows little of the history and developement of the bolt action rifle and he knows not what a first class rifle is or should be. In most cases he has actually never even seen one let alone owned one. It is simply a matter of cost and availabilty and education to be aware of what a great rifle the original 98 was and is.

[Handy]

Man, you don't like anything made before WWII, do you?

Anyway, nice to hear that they are more accurate than I've seen reported.

[45R]

a few words to think about.

BACK UP HANDGUN!

[Art Eatman]

Handy, if you're referring to BHP9's comment about Mauser 98s, you reckon you meant after WW II? :)

What I always like about those old Mausers is that they're finished. They're not all rough and scrapey, like so much of the newer stuff. Heckuva note when an old war gun out-smooths a sporter! But, that level of hand-finish costs money, and rifles are very cost-competitive--which is why Mr. Remington does the two-piece bolt.

Shame we can't have rifle that's as strong as the Remington as to pressure; has a safe and reliable claw extractor, and is as slick as an old Krag. Lastly, it sells for $300.

Never happen.

:D, Art

[Jim K]

Hi, MrAcheson and folks.

I can't say NO Remington bolt handle has ever come off, but for the record, the handle is NOT soft soldered on or silver soldered on. It is copper induction brazed, which is a pretty solid way of attaching steel to steel. I have sold, owned and used a fair number of Remington 700's and have never seen a bolt handle come off or loosen.

When the word first got out that the Remington bolt handles were brazed on, I was working as a gunsmith. Dozens of people told me that the handles could/did/do come off, even at the slightest touch. I asked that any broken Remington bolts be brought to me and I would see that they were replaced or, if we had sold the rifle, I would give a full refund.

I had no (that is ZERO) takers; those stories were all BS and baloney. I seriously doubt that story about the African hunter as well. What was his name? Where did the incident take place? When did it happen? Were there witnesses? If so, who were they? Was the rifle examined by an expert? What happened to it? Et cetera. I bet there are no answers.

Of course, if I am pushing another brand, it might be worthwhile to make sure some Remington handles come off; a cutting torch will do it every time.

Jim

[Badger Arms]

A good hammer and a vice will make sure it comes off every time.

[Tamara]

...and is as slick as an old Krag.

You know, now that I have one of those things, I have to say "Ain't that the truth?" :D

It may not be the strongest old bolt-action in the world, but danged if it ain't the slickest. (The funky magazine is a ton of giggles to play with, too; I can open and close it for an hour at a time, just to watch the follower do its little trick. :cool: )

[Nero Steptoe]

"Most comparison tests give better accuracy marks to Brownings, Rugers or even Savage..."

Links? References? Savages, maybe...Rugers and Brownings?? Not likely! Check with those guys over on benchrest.com or varminhunters.com and see how many use Rugers and Brownings.

[BusMaster007]

Forgive me here, Ladies & Gentlemen, but I'm having difficulty with some of the statements made about the Remington 700 and their owners.

It seems that not only is the rifle getting a bashing, but the good people who own them are getting bashed, too.
I don't take kindly to that kind of treatment from anyone. I was under the impression that this kind of behavior wasn't allowed on the Forum. (I'd use quotes, but, I don't think I'd better do that.)
Or, maybe I'm just being 'too sensitive'... :neener:

It seems that there are some folks here that have a low opinion of the 700 and have not backed up their statements with any kind of proof.
Not only that, but by making comments in a sideways fashion, are insulting their fellow shooters here, assuming they are a particular 'kind' of shooter...
That's as good as a 'slur' in my book.

I think some of the statements are unabashedly arrogant.
If you (whoever you are) intend to make condescending statements professing your superior intellect, experience, prowess, or whatever, tell us what makes YOU so special as to be able to talk down to the rest of us.
It reminds me of the guys at the range who are SO good, and SO experienced that they don't have time for anyone 'not on their level'...and they aren't having any FUN anymore. :eek:

Give us your credentials. Something. Just don't insult your fellow shooters without telling us why you think you can do that...:rolleyes: Please.
Remember the old saying, "no brag, just fact" ?
What are you bragging about?
If it's really that good, we can decide if you or your choice in firearms deserves our eternal gratitude.

OK, rant mode off. :cuss: :D

[makdaddy03]

Remember there's the new Rem. 710 out there.

[Tamara]

In most cases he has actually never even seen one let alone owned one. It is simply a matter of cost and availabilty and education to be aware of what a great rifle the original 98 was and is.

I guess I should scrap that PSS idea I was toying with, since I already have a byf 98k that is infinitely superior in every way, eh?

[meathammer]

In big game hunting or in soldiering when your life may be on the line it makes a world of difference. A stuck case in the chamber is often very diffucult to remove as many match shooters will attest to. The super strong claw extractor of the Mauser does not slip off or break like many modern rifles extractors do. The bolt handle of the Mauser will take a tremendous amount ofabuse as compared to the more modern econo-mass produced rifles.

BHP9,

I you read my previous post, from my personal experience, I can attest to the STRENGTH of the Rem 700 bolt and/or extractor. The conditions my rifle was in, bullet stuck in chamber, sub-zero temperatures, and me wacking the living crap out of the bolt handle.

I'm not saying these things can't break. I'm also not saying your stories aren't true. BUT, it's not the case for all Rem 700s. My rifle is strong enough for me, and has my confidence. All I do with mine is hunt, and target shoot. It is just a rifle to me, not a pry-bar, stump-puller or sledgehammer. I just don't see that many 700s breaking from normal wear and tear. I suppose if someone WAS concerned with this, maybe try ordering a spare bolt assembly from Remington? I don't know. I think Rems are an excellent rifle for the money. Take it for what it is.

[Art Eatman]

Aw, BusMaster007, we've got over 4,000 members here, nattering away on multitudes of subjects. We generally feel grateful for the occasional Jim Keenan or Tamara, who at least offer a modicum of actual knowledge based upon experience. :D

Just sorta think of THR in terms of the highway sign, "Welcome to BugTussle. Home of 4,000 happy people and three old cranks." I mean, there are some folks that'd gripe if they were gonna be hanged with a brand new rope!

:D, Art

[BusMaster007]

OK, Art.
I'll go whack myself with a bolt handle!
;)

[Art Eatman]

Ran in to town. Checked the mail. Saw a buddy; had lunch--and he snuck off and paid for it?

Got some chores done around the place. Played with guns a bit. All's well.

Log on to the Net. Check emails.

Come here. Find folks been playing in the finger-paint while I wuz gone.

If you notice some changes from earlier, it's 'cause Kilroy--er, Art--wuz here.

:D, Art

[Handy]

Thanks, Art.

[Steve Smith]

See, it is a dang good thing that there's more than one type of individual mod'n this place. It is like pulling teeth for me to even look at this thread.

I say if you folks would stop using ancient designs, you wouldn't have to worry about bolts coming off in your hands! :p



(Where's that ducking smiley?)

[goon]

I gotta say, this thread has me a little concerned.
I bought a 700 ADL about two days before I found this thread.
Now I am worried a little. I don't want a gun that is more prone to failure than it needs to be.
So, my question stands; has anyone actually had this happen to them, or even have firsthand knowledge of this happening?
And what about this copper induction brazing?
Is there a place where I can check this process out?
How did you come to know that the bolts aren't soldered on?
I am not trying to be a jerk, I really want to check this out. Please elaborate a little bit.
I need to decide whether or not to sell it off and replace it with something better, if in fact there is something "better".
Or should I just stick with my M-39 Finn?
Thanks.

[Don Gwinn]

OK, I may be oversimplifying, but if I had any doubts I'd put the bolt in a padded vise and yank on it until either I broke it or I was convinced I couldn't. If you can't break it with hand pressure, you won't break it by shooting it under whatever conditions. If it breaks, send it back.

Again, I'm guessing, but induction brazing sounds like brazing with the heat done by running lots of current through the parts just like induction heat-treating. It should be a very clean and thorough way of doing it, so it should be very strong.

[Al Thompson]

Goon, you have one poster suggesting a problem with no evidence to back it up. Last count, I've actually shot, oh, 12 or so M700s extensivly - work related. Witnessed a bunch more being shot, friends with three of the most (well 2nd most) rabid M700 haters on the planet and don't care for them personally.

I think the M700 is a fine rifle and would have no qualms about using one. BTDT and as BHP9 points out, they shoot very well.

Relax and enjoy your new rifle. :)

[Byron Quick]

Maddog I just scanned my ffl logs and see in the neighborhood of 4 thousand 721 , 722 ,and 700 actions that have had rifles built on them. I can say that in all those years, with the few new actions which broke the extractor during test fire due to bad heat treat I hve never had any trouble with the extractors. I have never in 50 years seen a bolt break except when some idiot locked one up with too much pressure and then beat the bolt handle off trying to get it open. You can have your likes and dislikes as that's your privilege but picking a weak action that doesn't handle gas well and will not generate accuracy That's carrying product loyalty a little far.-. I challenge you to a test. You take your Mod.70 and I will take a 700 and we will over charge them the same and take the cases and put them in the lathe and cut a groove at the web to ensure that the case head fails and see which handles the gas the best. I can assure you that you will get the surprise of your life. In the old days at Camp Parry every year you would see a bucket full of them blown up by people trying to get mag. Velocity out of 06s The late Gale McMillan
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13813&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
Check and mate:D

[Art Eatman]

goon, one final point that I've posted before: The 721 was the forerunner to the 700. First time out with the fully-enclosed casehead "push feed" rifle. The final acid test was a case full of some powder like IMR 4064, and four--count'em, four--220-grain bullets in front.

Nothing blew.

But do not try this at home. :D

IOW, enjoy your rifle and don't worry about it.

Art

[Tamara]

Aw, c'mon! What did Gale McMillan know about rifles?


;)

[Byron Quick]

A-Forgot more than the rest of us ever knew.
B-Knew more than the rest of us forgot.
C-Tried to share all he knew but humans don't live that long.
D-All of the above.

[pdh]

Guys,I was surfing Remington's website and clicked on Magazine and then Myremington and the were many remington 700 owners praising their 700s.
Many commending the quality and accruacy with some of the groups they shot with their rifles.
Interesting reading.Seems quit a few satisfied 700 customers.These people like their 700s so much that they felt compelled to take some time to tell Remington what a great product the 700 is.

[Art Eatman]

BATF records show that the gun population of the U.S. has increased by about five million per year for the last dozen years.

Now: Just how many dangerous problems have any of you personally seen? Next, how many failures that actually would have caused some hazard in a "normal" self-defense situation? No "I heard...", please. :)

Art

[BigG]

Don't you hate it when somebody tries to inject sense into a thread?

[Quartus]

:confused:

Art, what does the ability to take pressure have to do with bolt handles breaking off?

[Art Eatman]

Quartus, say you have some overpressure loading, whether bad luck from some namufacturer, or your own goof during handloading. Or, for that matter, some minor, non-catastrophic bit of crud in the barrel.

This bolt/chamber design should not have much of a "jamming" problem, with the bolt being exceptionally hard to open. If the bolt opens anywhere near normally, it's unlikely to be broken...

I guess, SFAIK, yadayadayada...

:), Art

[cratz2]

Dear Mr. Ratz,

Thank you for contacting Remington Country. We appreciate your interest in our products. We also appreciate you bringing this to our attention. However, unfortunately, on the internet you can find negative comments on every manufactured product that was ever made. We do stand behind our products and we do manufacture a high quality, american built firearm. Our service department is always available to assist any of our gun owners if a problem occurs. The Model 700 bolt handle incident is not by any means a common problem with our firearms.

We pride ourselves on the safety of our products for every individual that used them. Should you or anyone else incur such a problem please contact us or send your firearm into our service department. We hope that this information will help to ease your concerns on our products. If you have further questions feel free to contact our parts and repair department at 1-800-243-9700 M-F 9am - 5pm EST. One of our representatives will be glad to assist you.

[Barrelmaker]

A couple years ago I worked for a local gunsmithing shop here in western Washington state. We built 4 or 5 sniper rifles for the Anchorage PD swat team. Rifles were Remington s/s short action .308's. We modified the bolt with sako extractors and three position safetys. We then sent out the rifles to Robar in Az. for the m-1a mag conversion and the NP3 finish. Sent said rifles to Alaska to the Anch. PD and soon started getting them back because the bolt handles were coming off. Most if not all failed and I'm not certain if the fact that they were NP3 'd had some adverse reaction to the way the handles were brazed to the bolt body's. Needless to say they were no longer a warranty item from Remington because of the modifications. I've never liked the s/s actions from Remington because I've seen some bad galling staight out of the box to the feed rails. I use and own chrome moly actions and would recommend to anyone who wants an accurate relatively inexpensive rifle a c/m rem 700. Personally I'd stay away from the s/s ones as I've only seen the c/m ones break off after someone blows a primer and try's to pound the bolt open. I'm sure you can contact the Anchorage Pd. to confirm my statement.

[Sven]

We hope that this information will help to ease your concerns on our products.

Nope, it convinced me that you are more interested in PR than in what is really happening with your products.

Not interested in that 700 anymore, sorry Remington.

[cratz2]

I must say, and I don't know that the other major manufacturers would say the same thing, but if there was no problem at all, they would have said that a little more clearly and emphatically. Not saying every 700 bolt handle is going to fall off in the next week but if someone was saying this about my products, I'd straighten the false reports out post haste!

Well, I'm not going to get rid of any of my 700s, but I'm not going to be in a big hurry to get any more in the near future. I like the way M77s handle better anyway. ;)

[BusMaster007]

Barrelmaker:

What was the soution to the problem?
I looked at that and think the NP3 treatment probably had a lot to do with the separation. I can't tell you why, because I don't really know...I'm guessing. A "S.W.A.G."
If it was likely and probable the NP3 application process caused the problem, some way of attaching the two parts solidly and redoing the NP3 on the finished part would be the way I'd "handle" it. :)
Has the problem occurred on NP3 treated CM bolts, too?
I don't know anything about welding steel or stainless steel parts together or if it would even make a difference.


Was the NP3 deemed necessary on the stainless for additional anti-corrosion protection?
Did it help alleviate the galling?
Why'd they go stainless in the first place?

I'm curious as to why they chose this stainless platform to begin with, let alone the number and type of changes made to it.

For what they were after, it seems a good autoloader in .308 would've done better for them, if any currently made are trusted enough to be as accurate as the bolt-action for their purposes.

[Handy]

I've seen ton of brazed bicycle frames that were then chromed. Chroming seems like a more corrosive process than electroless nickel (the basis for NP3). I'm more than a little curious how the NP3 process could (if it did) affect the entirety of the brazed area.


So is that two people reporting the problem now?

[Barrelmaker]

Rifles had chrome/moly douglas premium air gauged barrels installed if I remember correctly. In addition the mag conversions and additional parts would have been some other material other than stainless. Stainless actions also have chrome/moly bolt heads copper brazed on to help prevent galling. I guess they wanted a homogenious look to their rifles so that was the finish they requested.
I remember putting two 6/48 scews through the handles into the bolt body after resilver soldering the two pieces back together. Then tig welding up the holes for the screws to hide there locations. Handles still wouldn't stay on for very long. Anchorage Pd. sent us one of the rifles back after there armoror had placed bolt body in a vice and bent the handle until it gave up the ghost and finally came off. [Not one of the ones to come off by itself.] I remember thinking "@#% DAMN IT!" Probably the only one that would've stayed on but their confidence in these rifles was allready shot by then.
I haven't ever seen a chrome moly action after having been plated do the same thing. Don't know why they had to have stainless actions. I only recommend the chrome moly ones, and if you want the stainless look I get them hard chromed. Stainless seems to be a little on the soft side.

[Art Eatman]

One of the reasons we never used chrome-plated wheels on race cars is hydrogen embrittlement. Supposedly you could get separation of the rim from the center. Dunno how all that works, but I've always stayed away from chroming any steel which will be highly (or relatively highly) stressed.

Art

[redneck2]

yeah, those 700's are total crap. Don't shoot straight, fall apart in your hands

HOWEVER...being the kind, honest, and generous person that I am, I will be glad to give you scrap value for any Remington 700. They'll be good company for my other three 700's

I love doing good deeds for humanity;)

[mete]

Art, hydrogen embrittlement is usually not a problem in steel that has a hardness of less than 45 Rc. The platers should be well aware of the process and bake out the hydrogen on harder material after plating. As for the brazing there is always a possibility of a bad braze. Let's have some photos of broken bolts so we know exactly whats happening.

[cracked butt]

As much as I like controlled round feed rifles, especially mausers, they simply are not as reliable for feeding ammunition as Rem 700's. I've had at least 3 or 4 mauser 96 and 98's that jammed up upon feeding. I simply polished the underside of he extractor on the 96 to cure it, but 2 of the 98's I had to do some very carefull reshaping of the receiver rails to keep bullet tips from mashing into the edge of the chamber and jamming up completely. Some of my mausers scratch the cases also, which I don't much care for. I've never had a feeding or reliability problem with a rem 700. When the cartridge pops out of the magazine, its partially in the chamber already, and simply cannot jam up. I don't care for the rem ejector though. I've never seen a broken bolt handle, though I suppose if you could find gunsmith that dislikes a certain brand or model that will find a few defects and make an example of said model.

[308 Hawg]

Remington 700 bolt heads are NOT silver brazed (or silver soldered or induction copper brazed) onto the bolt body. There is a silver solder washer that holds the dry fire washer in place. The bolt head is held in place by the barely visible cross-pin. The complete assembly is furnace brazed at a temperature that also does the "draw" operation on the 4140 parts.

[Handy]

Hawg,

What is the functional difference between "copper induction brazing" and "furnace brazing"? I have never heard the term "braze" applied to silver soldering, but I guess it fits the definition.

[mete]

Handy, proper terms will prevent confusion. The term solder is for alloys that melt in the 400F range. there is a silver SOLDER that is 95% tin and 5% silver. BRAZING is done in the 1100 - 1300F range .These alloys are copper based and those that contain silver are refered to as silver BRAZE. The brazing can be done with a torch but in production the heat source can be a furnace or an induction coil. I assume the assembly is brazed .

[Handy]

Yeah, everyone has refered to it as brazed, and I had assumed copper brazed. 308 Hawg's statement just made it sound like there was a qualitative difference between two different kinds of copper brazing.

In the bicycle industry, silver brazing is refered to (right or wrong) as silver soldering. It is not the lead based low temp stuff, but is preferred to copper brazing due to the lower torch temperature used and the lowered affect on thin tubing.

[Gewehr98]

This is why Remington rifles have always been so popular. They are cheap in price and very accurate and the avearge owner is a sand bag plinker.

http://mauser98.com/bovine.jpg

[Art Eatman]

Oh, Bull!

:D :D :D

Art's Grammaw

[Handy]

So then, the average 700 owner is... ?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of rifles owned in the US ARE only fired to sight in and maybe at a deer. While there are many shooters who do more, 90 out of 100 rifles are hardly fired. What's the issue? Hurt feelings?

[Lone Star]

Some gun books say that Remington brazes those bolt handles on. What is "brazing"?

Personally, I prefer Sako, CZ, and Winchester rifles. I think Remingtons look cheaper, and I know for a fact that I see more rust on used Remingtons than on other brands. Probably not enough chrome in their steel blend.

Nero-

You're off base here. It isn't easy to kill elephant under sporting hunting conditions. I suggest you read Bell's books and others by very experienced African hunters. The vital points are smaller than you'd think, and it's quite possible for the elephant to sneak up very close in heavy bush. If elephant hunting worried the likes of John Hunter, Peter Capstick, Robert Ruark, W.D.M. Bell, etc., it isn't a piece of cake. Sounds like you've been taken in by too many TV nature shows! I think I'd be more concerned with my safety when hunting elephant than any other African animal, except MAYBE for wounded Cape buffalo in heavy cover...

The .375 caliber is legal for elephant in some countries, and the famous Harry Manners used only a .375 (Winchester M70) in his celebrated career in Mozambique. I'd prefer a .470 or .416 in thicker country, but a .375 H&H Magnum has killed many elephant.
Bell and others killed them with 6.5mm and 7X57mm (.275 Rigby) rifles. But Bell shot undisturbed herds in the old days, and he placed his shots with surgical precision. He had made very extensive studies of elephant anatomy, too.

SPORTING elephant hunting has little in common with African (black) troops machine-gunning elephant herds in the open!

Lone Star

[BigG]

According to John Taylor, Karamojo Bell got away with the dimunitive calibers because he used a ladder type perch to get above the elephant grass where he could see the tops of their heads floating above a sea of grass. A small bore right in the g spot is as good as anything. But that was before the elephants became wary and moved into the heavy bush.

[Art Eatman]

Well, we've wandered from 700s to I luv Mousers to metallurgy to heffalump shooting to .375s/.416s and we've probably gotten better information about soldering/brazing/welding than anything else.

I note that the casual user, who "merely" sights in his rifle of whatever make and style, and then shoots only at one Bambi, is also a gun-owner with all the same rights and prerogatives of a professional gunsmith or competitive targetsman. (He might be your neuro-surgeon, or a mechanic on that last 737 you rode in. :) ) He also votes. I suggest that part of wisdom is respect for him as a fellow rifleman.

Enuffffff.

Art