Talked to an Anti, last night! My stomach is still turning :(


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megatronrules
March 14, 2003, 12:15 PM
Good god friends and neighbors! I was talking to someone last night who in all other respects is a very smart person. The she went on to say she voted for Fienstien,and supported gun control. So I figure "Let me listen to her view". If for no other reason but to be polite. She said she hates guns, and they should ban them, so every redneck cant shoot his wife, and some kid cant find it and shoot his friend.:confused:

I then told her that those kinds of things while tragic are not the norm. She then cited the statisic that a gun in the home is 40 blah blaa times more likely to kill or injure a family member. I told her that is a skewed statistic. I also said if thats the case I have some great luck, cause with all my guns I and my family have cheated death 400+ times a day for years! So where is my winning lottery ticket?:D She wasnt hearing me guys.

She then said. "Look at our crime rate". I said "Well there are less than 1% of guns used in crime yearly, and if the kept criminals locked up where they belong, there would be very little crime,as most of it is criminal on criminal anyway. She wasnt hearing me guys.
She pointed to Canada and the UK. I informed here I have 2 very good friends in the UK. There are many, many shootings there that you dont hear about over here. She wouldnt listen to that either.
I pointed to Isreal and the Swiss. The Swiss dont kill each other in droves. Nope, she wouldnt listen.

By now my stomach was in a knot, but I maintained my composure and was polite.

Oh and the grand daddy of gun grabbing statements. " I think only the police and military and criminals should have guns"! She claims she wants gun control because of crime, yet says let the police and criminals have thier guns. Where is the logic in this?

I gave her my anaogy of it, Lets say you got a piece of paper in the mail. It says you have 90 days to turn in your drivers lisence, since 40,000 people a year are killed by drunk drivers. Now you think " i didnt drive drunk,i KNOW that i wouldnt drive drunk. Why are they punishing me? The letter says that its in everyones interest of you take public transpotation from now on. Out of 200 million lisenced drivers, they are looking at the 40,000 who broke the law.Im no mathmatician but that is a pretty low percentage.
I said that gun owners are in the same boat. We have hundreds of millions of guns, yet there were 24 THOUSAND used in crimelast year. Just for example here.By my math that is 6/10's of 1 PERCENT! That means that there are 99.4 % of guns never used for a crime.
SHE WASNT HEARING ME GUYS....SAID MY ANAOLGY WAS NOT CORRECT. I thought it was damn good for something I thought up right there.
She praised Fienstien's efforts on trying for more gun control and "gun safety"! I sent her the pic of Fienstien with the AK47 that I think was used in the North Hollywood shootout. If its not that gun its the same damn setup. Anyway she has that gun with THE BOLT CLOSED.FINGER ON TRIGGER,MAG IN GUN.AND POINTED AT PEOPLE:what: She just broke every rule of gun safety there is,
She want SAFETY ! :banghead:

I then said Fienstien last I heard had a permit to carry a handgun. She said well she is an important person. I said yes that may be, BUT is she any more important than me or you? Is her life worth more than mine? I have a family to go home to at the end of the day too. She wansnt sure about that one though.
With that i said," By the way, what do you think of me as a person"? She said " I like you, I think your a nice, smart, outgoing. kind person." I said "Well im certainly not a"redneck who would shoot my wife then"? She said "No not at all".
I then said " Well im a gun owner, and Im proud of it".
With that the convo was over.

Now looking back on it, im still sick over her attitude. How can a person who is otherwise intelligent buy into the skewed stats, and the basic concept that BANNING anything will ever rid society of it?
Well what are your thoughts? Did I handle this well? My first discusson with an Anti.

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AJ Dual
March 14, 2003, 12:26 PM
You're not going to convince her with just one conversation.

You did an excellent job, and planted some seeds, seeds that might take root.

I would invite her shooting.

Do all the normal stuff for the "anti break-in period", such as start her out with a .22, go to a range where she won't be intimidated by .50 BMG reports, gang-bangers firing sideways etc.

Alone on empty land is best if you can swing it, and can use reactive targets like clays, old fruit, cans, baloons etc. Punching paper at fixed distances and range commands can also be intimidating.

If she resists your invitation, you could point out politely that until she's held, and shot a couple of firearms she really dosen't know what she's talking about, and her right to have an opinion on them is limited...

OF
March 14, 2003, 12:29 PM
Sounds like a fight well fought. The best you can hope for 99% of the time is to plant a seed of doubt in there somewhere. Outright on-the-spot conversions are as rare as unicorns.

If you want to plant seeds of doubt for hopeful future germination, use the goalie approach, fending off and refuting each of the anti's mis-statements in turn as they present them without backing them into a corner to the point where they get red in the face. This is playing defense and usually ends in a draw, but it keeps the party from breaking up.

If you want to really screw 'em to the wall, take a single statement and pursue it to it's logical conclusion. Don't let them change the topic. Force them to stay on a single point until the corner they are painted into is so small they're balancing on their toes like a ballerina. The effect is best if you can remain completely calm and unemotional as they descend into the inevitable frothing madness.

That's always alot of fun. :) They squirm like bait on a hook.

- Gabe

megatronrules
March 14, 2003, 12:32 PM
Oh GRD that was funny! Made me laugh here :D

Mordwyn
March 14, 2003, 12:35 PM
For a first conversation you did great. From your description, It appears that what happened here was the very common reaction that people have when very deep set, all be it illogical, opinions are chalanged. Her ego would not allow her to respond in any other way other than how she did.

You planted seeds, that is the important thing. Now if your friend is inteligent and introspective enough to look at your facts and compair them to her emotions you may have won over a convert. Most people can't do this, so unfortuantely I wouldn't hold my breath. I just hope that he doesn't allow her emotions to govern her opinions of you and thus lump you in with the "redneck" catagory that she paints all gun owners with.

Pilgrim
March 14, 2003, 12:39 PM
Oh and the grand daddy of gun grabbing statements. " I think only the police and military and criminals should have guns"! She claims she wants gun control because of crime, yet says let the police and criminals have thier guns. Where is the logic in this?

Police, military, and criminals are authority figures. They deserve the tools of their trade. :uhoh:

muddyboots
March 14, 2003, 12:40 PM
She wasn't thinking; she was feeling. I doubt that reason will work. You somehow have to reach emotional empathy to swing her around. Good luck.

Phil Ca
March 14, 2003, 12:51 PM
You did fine! It was your friend that has a closed mind and until she becomes(God forbid) a victim of some terrible crime, she will probably remain of the same mindset.

Having worked in SF for 27 + years and observing some crimes first hand or sometimes being on the seen right after they were committed gives me a different perspective of that beautiful city. Like the time I came upon the wino lying on the front steps of the building I worked in, with his throat slit ear to ear. He died in the ambulance that I ordered called for him.

There were a few occasions that I was placed in a position to have to be in the same room with the Honorable Mayor Fineswine and I was not a happy camper during thse times. I would seek out a wash basin so I could wash my hands after shaking hers.

the time she turned in ONE of her TWO handguns to make a statement was a completly staged charade. She went to the location where the chief of police and the TV crew were and went through the motions of turning in her revolver.

SHe opened a paper bag, removed the S&W box. She then opened the box and removed the LOADED revolver. Then she opened the revolver after pointing it in a safe direction and removed the cartridges. She handed the revolver and ammo to the chief and made sone sappy comments and the show was over.

Of course she was driven to the SF City Hall in a city owned limo, driven by a police inspector that was armed. iirc there was not a major turn in of firearms from the general public after that. She still had her other revolver and the CCW.

BTW, in SF, there are only 8 issued CCWs in the whole county! Check out the CCW web page and look at the California stats. They are listed by county showing the number of people living in the county and percentage of people by white and black race and then the CCW stats.

She never really had to worry about crime in her neighborhood either. There was usually a black and white or an undercover car parked near by.

:mad:

cslinger
March 14, 2003, 01:14 PM
Once they actually hold and shoot a real live gun it suddenly doesn't seem as dangerous as it was before.

I think many of the anti people equate all guns to mass killing huge howitzers that if used improperly will kill hundreds.

You take them to the range and they pop off some .22 and work they way up and pretty soon they are looking at you with that I don't see what all the fuss is about look.

You tell them all the hoops you have to jump through to buy and own a gun and they look at you like "I didn't know that you had to have a background check."

Basically what it comes down to is "They didn't know." Once they do the great majority that I have met drastically change their views with most actually enjoying shooting and those that still do not like guns do have an understanding that not just any 12 year old can buy a gun lawfully and that responsible people should be able to own guns if they wish.

Don't ever give up on any anti. Giving up is the worst thing you can do. Everything is exponential. Turn one anti and they will turn one more and that person will turn two more and so on.

Fight the good fight.

Chris

megatronrules
March 14, 2003, 01:19 PM
Good idea guys. Im going to try to turn her around. Since she is already an anti,I have nothing to lose and everything to gain.:) I will invite her to the range. I'll take the .22 :)
Thanks for the opinions all.

critter
March 14, 2003, 02:16 PM
Just read my signature line. SAD-but that is the way they are.

Scooter .45
March 14, 2003, 02:58 PM
Sadly, there are people who make every effort to ignore good sound logic. I think knowledge is the key. Way way back, my dad got a pilot's license and I'd sit in the back seat with my stomach flipping. When he sat me up front with him and I saw EXACTLY what was going on I felt great again.

Lots of well-intentioned anti-gunners are still in the back seat of the plane, and a little first-hand range time would make 'em feel better about guns!

4v50 Gary
March 14, 2003, 03:44 PM
Tell her that FineSwine killed a man when she was mayor of SF. She did CPR and when the guy regurgitated, she neglected to clear the passageway for air. Instead, she blew the guy's vomit into his own lungs and drowned him in Civic Center Park.

CZ-75
March 14, 2003, 03:54 PM
Or that she gave the facts away about the Nightstalker case.

Richard Ramirez ended up dumping his incriminating shoes and gun off a bridge thanks to her "heads up."



Oh, and a VERY un-PC suggestion. Certain minority groups are more likely, statistically, to commit crimes than whites.

Ask if she'd favor implanting these groups with GPS chips so that the police could find them at all times? Odds are that she'd say "no."

Ask why. Odds are she'd make a point about this being "unfair" and punishing the innocent as well as the guilty. Tell her this is what gun control does to innocent, law-abiding gun owners.

She'd probably point out this is a false analogy, since gun owners can choose to own guns and skin color and ethnicity aren't choices. Concede, but then also point out that the discussion is about crime, not ethnicity, and what would be effective methods to stop it.

Make a point that punishing those who choose to defend themselves from crime (i.e., gun owners) while allowing a group that is statistically more likely to commit a crime than average to go around w/o being checked only solves part of the problem and is intellectually dishonest. Frame the solution as "all or none." Point out that only solving part of the problem, disarming legal gun-owners, while not dealing with other parts is immoral, since you haven't solved a problem but merely made another group more vulnerable.

Statistics about average police response times, etc. would help bolster the argument of self defense.

Waitone
March 14, 2003, 04:02 PM
Your conversation demonstrates the effectiveness of mind control.

Instilling doubt is about all you can do except for invitations to the range.

Phil Ca,

Great comments. I did hear the story of 2 guns and you just confirmed it. Do you know if she is one of the 8 CCH holders your mentioned. Rumors abound that she packs heat on a regular basis.

geekWithA.45
March 14, 2003, 04:19 PM
Whoa! Props to waitone!

Gun Control Advocates = Mind Control Victims


Spin up the bumper sticker presses!

Standing Wolf
March 14, 2003, 09:50 PM
In my experience, attempting to reason with anti-Second Amendment bigots is a lot like arguing with walls: you don't change the wall's opinion, and just frustrate yourself.

If they sincerely want to discuss things, I'll give it a shot, but when they stoop to invective and ad hominem attacks, I just walk away.

ahadams
March 14, 2003, 10:58 PM
Hey megatron, sounds like you did okay. Remember that you actually got her to the point of admitting that she didn't know what she thought about something. That is MAJOR step in getting through to heavily indoctrinated types! Just keep your cool like the guys above are saying and you'll do fine!

Yohan
March 14, 2003, 11:23 PM
Whine some more. Let the idiots dwell in their own little world. Who's more stupid? The idiot or the person who gets hurt by the idiot?

Autolite
March 14, 2003, 11:27 PM
but I see things the same as Standing Wolf. Any anti who 'crosses over' is just a fluke. Our arguments are based on logic and reason while theirs are based on emotion. It's like trying to beat someone at a game of chess while the're playing Dungeons & Dragons. It's an apples and oranges situation. This is why seemingly intelligent people will buy into the anti B.S. They are using the 'emotional' side of their brain instead of the 'logical' side. Arguing with an anti is like trying to explain the concept of colour to someone who was born blind...

XLMiguel
March 15, 2003, 12:29 AM
ou can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think.

As I was returning from a range sesssion one afternoon, my wife was talking with our oh so PC neighbor over the back fence. I went out to say 'hi' with my little bag o'guns, and she asked where I had been. I said I had been to the pistol range and held up my bag. She gave me the 'Ooooo, I'm afraid of guns' look, and I said let me show you something. I pulled out the S&W mod. 60 I had been exercising that day, laid it on a log, stepped back, and said "Watch." So she did. Then I stepped back again (and so did she), and I said "Watch." After a pregnant pause, she said, "It's not doing anything!", to which I replied, "Precisely my point. It's an inanimate object, it has no will of it's own."

She's not a dumb woman, and I could see a minor epiphany starting to gestate, the look on her face was priceless. I allowed as how guns weren't for everyone, they require some training to be used safely (though not a whole lot more than her lawnmower), but in and of themselves, guns were neither good nor bad, like anything else, it's how they're used.

She's coming along, I will get her to the range some day, but she is no longer a knee-jerk anti. One birck at a time.

S_O_Laban
March 15, 2003, 06:56 AM
excellent point: "one brick at a time". Think of antis like a wiring harness that has half of the wires cut ( ie they only use their emotions not logic). You can only repair that harness one wire at a time. When you start it looks like a mess and most people throw up their hands and quit. Don't give up, remember " fix a wire a day, keeps the spin doctors away"

Sisco
March 15, 2003, 07:46 AM
1) Never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

2) You do not have to attend every argument you are invited to.

MacPelto
March 15, 2003, 12:58 PM
If/when you take her to the range with a .22, take some shoot-n-see targets...my experience with new shooters, particularly the least knowledgeable ones, is that they like some kind of instant gratification. Shoot-n-sees make it easy to see where the shot landed, particularly with a .22. Plus, you can send the target home with her afterwards. I work with 3 different people that I have done this with, and all of them have taken their target to work with them and posted it in their offices. It makes a great souvenir!

mec
March 16, 2003, 12:28 AM
She's not intelligent. She's a self-opinionated bit of lightweight fluff. Fortunately, she will probably stay at home and eat prosac during the next election cycle because she is upset that George Bush is a cowboy.

She was probably just trying to get on your nerves because some gun owner ran over her tricycle. Unfortunately, a lot of anti-gun types get that way because there are a substantial number of rectoid gun owners and people like the polemic parrot you met can't see the big picture.

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