[Desertdog]

Trying to play the Jesus card
By Wesley Pruden
http://www.insightmag.com/news/2005/04/18/Commentary/Trying.To.Play.The.Jesus.Card-928543.shtml

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Howard Dean, the chief screamer and chairman of the Democratic National Committee, thinks he has the formula for a Democratic revival:

Jesus, guns and balanced budgets.

He told Arkansas newspaper columnist John Brummett on the eve of a meeting of state chairmen in Little Rock that he wants Democrats to speak up for "values."

"We need to talk about Christian values and how they're Democratic values," he said. "Jesus taught to help the least among us. He spent his life reaching out to the disenfranchised. The Democratic Party is the party of that value, not the Republican Party."

His proposition was once at least arguable, and he found a ripe target for one needling remark: "I was a governor who balanced eight budgets in a row, which is eight more than the Republicans, and I was a governor who was endorsed every year by the National Rifle Association."

But he's also the governor who, trying to sound like a tent-revival Democrat, boasted that his favorite New Testament book was the Book of Job, which would have amused Job himself, being a nice Jewish boy whose manifold afflictions were set out in the Old Testament. Little Howard was not the attentive Sunday school boy he should have been.

Nevertheless, we take heart when and where we can, and the Lord loves a cheerfully serious penitent. If Howard Dean can point the Democrats to a sawdust trail that leads to the old-time religion, well, huzzah and hallelujah. But he must take his lunch to the task, because it's likely to be an all-day job.

A remarkable three-part series by Julia Duin in The Washington Times sets out the furious secular campaign against the very idea of religious values, mocking in particular the faith of Christians. It's the staunchest of Democratic Party allies who are leading the attack. Many Christians, and many Americans of other persuasions or of no faith at all, see the threat to cut the national culture loose from its Judeo-Christian roots as aggressive, virulent and growing.

Leading the assault are the American Civil Liberties Union, which has never met a sordid cause it couldn't embrace, and advocacy groups called Americans United for Separation of Church and State and People for the American Way. Their stated goal is a naked public square, devoid of all evidence of the nation's identification with the worship of God, and ultimately a nation remade in the image of man. Their complaints against the faithful descend into the petty and spiteful; one group of litigious atheists even sued to prevent the football team at the University of Wisconsin from pre-game prayer in their locker room, well out of sight of atheists and others whose delicate psyches may have been vulnerable in the stands.

The skeptics have adopted Thomas Jefferson as their patron saint, citing him, correctly, as the author of the idea of a wall between church and state. The phrase, "separation of church and state," does not appear in the Constitution, but was taken from Jefferson's famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut, in which he told them that he contemplated "with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

Jefferson actually wrote to the Baptists, for whom separation of church and state has always been an article of strongly held conviction, to persuade them that a state-established church -- such as the Congregational or the Anglican in several states -- would not harm their own beliefs. On another occasion, Jefferson said that "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

But merely to speak of God, and particularly to speak of Jesus Christ, sets atheist hair, where there is any, afire. Mocking faith, and particularly the faith of Christians, has become the sport of secularists. Writes Los Angeles Times columnist Burt Prelutsky, who takes pains to identify himself as a Jew: "Anti-Semitism is no longer a problem in society -- it's been replaced by a rampant anti-Christianity."

The bad news for Howard Dean and the Democrats is that the anti-Christian soldiers are nearly all Democrats. If he wants to teach Democrats to sing hymns to red-state "values," he'll have to tell some of his allies to stifle themselves, and learn the words himself before he strikes up the band.

[Rebar]

The new democratic strategy - lie more than usual, in fact, lie like there's no tomorrow!

[critter]

He is a typical democrap with no beliefs and no values whatsoever. He simply tries to tell everybody what they want to hear at the moment. Next day, 100 miles down the road, he'll have a totally different speech if it suits his fancy and he thinks it will garner his party a few votes.

Well, that's not entirely true. One core belief they have is that they want total control over every facet of your life, especially your money to pass out to their pals and to buy more votes.

[Nehemiah Scudder]

What do you mean lie?

There's a fair number of religious Democrats out there.

[Rebar]

What do you mean lie?
I mean that the leaders of the democratic party are anti-religous, anti-gun zealots who are cynically trying to paint themselves as something their not to get votes.

[Nehemiah Scudder]

Ah, that clears it up.
:rolleyes:

[RevDisk]

I mean that the leaders of the democratic party are anti-religous, anti-gun zealots who are cynically trying to paint themselves as something their not to get votes.

Uhm. Dean is the chair of the DNC last I recalled. If I remember correctly, he was endorsed by the NRA. I don't remember his entire track record off the top of my head, but I remember Kerry 'slammed' Dean a couple times for not supporting gun control (enough?). While Dean might not want to scrap all gun laws, he's not bad for a major Democrat. I'd say he's no worse than Bush Jr on gun issues. ;) I can't remember Dean being especially anti-religion either.

So, how is the guy lying?

[Rebar]

So, how is the guy lying?
First, Vermont had a very strong pro-RKBA court ruling, so Dean couldn't have done anything anti-gun, like I'm sure he wanted to.

Next, he is the DNC chair, and he's talking for the organization as a whole. An organization which is radically anti-religous and anti-gun, and is well known to be such.

[Lone_Gunman]

Rebar,

Dean is moderate on guns, much like GWB. He is encouraging other Democrats to be moderate on guns, and not push for new gun control measures. He is doing this because he has realized that gun control is a losing issue for the democrats politically.

This is exactly what we as members of the pro-gun community should want.

[JohnBT]

"So, how is the guy lying?"

He's a politician and his lips are moving; therefore there's a good chance he's lying.

John

[Henry Bowman]

The Dems don't have the "Jesus card" in their hand to play.

He is encouraging other Democrats to be moderate on guns No, he's encouraging them to be silent about their anti-gun rights and anti-religious values beliefs until such time as they may be back in the majority.

[dolanp]

Don't you know only Republicans can play the Jesus card!

[Rebar]

No, he's encouraging them to be silent about their anti-gun rights and anti-religious values beliefs until such time as they may be back in the majority.
Bingo.

[cookekdjr]

Although Dean is a liberal in some ways, he has always been very independent. He is pro law enforcement, for example. I think if you check Dean's actual record, you'll find he has traditional personal values on religion, gun control, and law enforcement, and he's held those beliefs for a long time. Last year he took alot of heat for saying the Democratic party needs to appeal to Nascar fans with confederate flags on their cars (paraphrase).
The thing is, he was basically saying the same thing Zell Miller said in 1991.

[cookekdjr]

By the way, most Democrats are Christian. We just don't require it for membership. ;)

[Rebar]

For sheer absurdity, Dean’s transparent attempt to pander to southern Christians rivals the efforts of Michael Dukakis to ingratiate himself to patriotic Americans by riding around in an M-1 tank. Despite his profuse platitudes Dean, a Congregationalist (when he does attend church at all), hardly qualifies to be keynote speaker at the next Southern Baptist general convention. Christians in the South (as well as throughout America) have come a long way since the days when Jimmy Carter could appeal to them on the basis that he was a devout Christian and Baptist, only to embrace every liberal, anti-Christian cause (along with virtually every atheistic dictator in the world), once in office. Likewise Bill Clinton, when he wasn't carrying around a Koran for photo-op purposes, claimed to be a good Baptist as well. Somehow, that shoe didn’t fit. Perhaps Dean should do a photo session complete with a Bible and a bowl of grits (Confederate flags haven’t worked too well for him in the past), in case some are slow to get the message.
http://www.conservativetruth.org/article.php?id=2066

[tetchaje1]

Wasn't it Dean who in a speech during the campaign in the South said, "We can't be so fixated on God, Guns, and Gays!"

For those who are defending him, he is playing you like a fiddle. :scrutiny:

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Right...Dean, this devout Christian who has said his favorite *New Testament* book is Job...

Dean..the devout Christian who quit his church in a dispute over...a bike path...

:rolleyes:

You can just hear some Democatic party strategist saying through clenched teeth: "If we could only find the right combination of words to say...just the right combination of sound bites...we'd be back..."

It's as if the Democrats looking for a magic incantation at this point.

[richyoung]

"We need to talk about Christian values and how they're Democratic values," he said. "Jesus taught to help the least among us. He spent his life reaching out to the disenfranchised. The Democratic Party is the party of that value, not the Republican Party."



WRONG! Jesus said, "Remember the Ten Commandments, and keep them holy." One of those commandments is "thou shalt not steal." Period. No weasel words. No "Thou shalt not steal, unless thou art a government employee." No "Thou shalt not steal, unless thy be a majority, and can get the government to do thy stealing for you." No "Thou shalt not steal, unless thy takes less than 50%, in which case it shalt be called "taxation" and "economic redistribution"". That one commandment puts the entire Taxocrat liberal socialist agenda squarely at odds with the words of the Christ. If you want to help the poor, USE YOUR OWN MONEY - (Lord knows, Ted Kennedy has enough bootlegging and mafia movie money left in the trust fund...) - DON'T STEAL SOMEONE ELSES TO DO IT, (even if it's done under the authority of the gubbamint!)

[RevDisk]

He's a politician and his lips are moving; therefore there's a good chance he's lying.

Bwahaha! Yep. I suppose that's true for almost all politicians since the Roman Empire.


Wasn't it Dean who in a speech during the campaign in the South said, "We can't be so fixated on God, Guns, and Gays!"

For those who are defending him, he is playing you like a fiddle

So, uhm, we shouldn't promote 2nd Amendment amoung Democrats? :confused:

The Republican Party has nearly a monopoly on all branches of government. WH, Congress and soon all the courts. Kindly explain to me why current gun control laws aren't being gutted like a fish?

Plenty of Democrats are Christians. I'd say probably the majority are Christians. Just because the Democratic Party generally doesn't want the government to support coercive religion does not make them anti-religion. Are there some anti-religious loonies in the Democratic Party? Sure. But they are not the majority.

[Lone_Gunman]

I am still trying to figure how Dean and Bush are different on the gun issue.

[Standing Wolf]

...he wants Democrats to speak up for "values."

When did looting bacome a "value"?

[RevDisk]

When did looting bacome a "value"?

Heh. Can anyone say "S&L scandal" ?

[Rebar]

Are there some anti-religious loonies in the Democratic Party? Sure. But they are not the majority.
Perhaps not, but they are in control of the party.

[cracked butt]

RichYoung beat me to it.

The democrats like to liken themselves as Jesus helping the poor, yet they don't understand that Jesus didn't steal from others to give to the poor. The concept of free will to make self sacrifices to help others completely escapes people like Dean. Jesus didn't force people to help others, he asked them to.

[horge]

Originally posted by JohnBT
"So, how is the guy lying?"

He's a politician and his lips are moving; therefore there's a good chance he's lying.http://mabma.thereeftank.com/postpics/abovelol.gif

[RealGun]

"We need to talk about Christian values and how they're Democratic values," he said. "Jesus taught to help the least among us. He spent his life reaching out to the disenfranchised. The Democratic Party is the party of that value, not the Republican Party."

If I am able to help someone, I would like it to be voluntarily, not by someone else's idea of entitlements, tax and spend, and who should get it.

[Sean Smith]

What Dean is saying makes perfect sense. Take God and Guns away from the Republicans, and they would probably lose 1/4 of their votes. The problem for the Democrats is convincing anyone that they are credible on those issues.

On guns, well, the Democrats are generally hopeless. Some Southern Democrats aren't virulently anti-2nd Ammendment, along with the occasional Yankee oddball like Dean himself. But it is an objective fact that a much greater proportion of the Democratic Party than the Republican Party is actively anti-2nd Ammendment.

However, if the Democrats could fake 2nd Ammendment "neutrality" on a national level, they could probalby gain alot of votes. Alot of gun owners want government handouts too, as long as they can keep their .30-06.

God is tougher, no pun intended. The "godliness" of politicians in America seems to hinge entirely on their opposition to abortion and their antipathy towards gays, along with opposition to the occasional court-ordered enforcement of the 1st Ammendment. Since the Democratic party's constituencies include... feminists and homosexuals... their ability to move on those issues is pretty limited.

And Dean has bungled his attempt to bring God into the equation, with his blatant ignorance of the Gospels, and the documented fact that he quit his curch over a bike path. Even by political standards, he looks like a hypocritical dunce.

[K-Romulus]

and the others who said the same . . .

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

God is tougher, no pun intended. The "godliness" of politicians in America seems to hinge entirely on their opposition to abortion and their antipathy towards gays, along with opposition to the occasional court-ordered enforcement of the 1st Ammendment. Since the Democratic party's constituencies include... feminists and homosexuals... their ability to move on those issues is pretty limited.

I think that you're forgetting that the Christian world in the USA includes far more than Protestant evangelicals.

The anti-war stance of the Democrats plays well with many liberal Catholics and others, and many other Churches (Epis. Unitarian, etc.) really don't have big problems with abortion

[Rebar]

Even by political standards, he looks like a hypocritical dunce.
Especially when he shows pure mean-spiritness:
But he did draw howls of laughter by mimicking a drug-snorting Rush Limbaugh.
http://www.startribune.com/dynamic/story.php?template=print_a&story=5360513
What happened to love the sinner hate the sin? Guess Christian values only apply by liberal for liberals.
And concluding his backyard speech with a litany of Democratic values, he added: "This is a struggle of good and evil. And we're the good."
http://www.ljworld.com/section/citynews/story/197427
So, republicans are evil now. Nice.

Dean and his cohorts are so filled with hate, they'll never convince anyone that they're the Christian party.

[tetchaje1]

Wasn't it Dean who in a speech during the campaign in the South said, "We can't be so fixated on God, Guns, and Gays!"

For those who are defending him, he is playing you like a fiddle


So, uhm, we shouldn't promote 2nd Amendment amoung Democrats?

The Republican Party has nearly a monopoly on all branches of government. WH, Congress and soon all the courts. Kindly explain to me why current gun control laws aren't being gutted like a fish?

Plenty of Democrats are Christians. I'd say probably the majority are Christians. Just because the Democratic Party generally doesn't want the government to support coercive religion does not make them anti-religion. Are there some anti-religious loonies in the Democratic Party? Sure. But they are not the majority.

Yes, we should be promoting the 2nd Amendment among all parties, and you are correct that there really is no real difference between Dean and Bush on guns. Neither of them are activaly banning them, but neither of them are doing a dang thing to repeal the useless and unConstitutional laws that we have on the books.

The Republicans have proven their ineptness in being any different from the Democrats in most areas of public policy -- even after the majority of Americans rejected the Democratic party platform in the last election. Instead of getting to work on the issues that the majority of Americans find important, they extended the olive branch and said, "Now we can work together in Congress to get things done." They won, their constituents voted them in for a reason. They should be cleaning up in Congress by reflecting what their constituents want -- within the realm of the Constitution, of course.

Your premise that most Democrats are Christians is true, but your premise that the Democratic party represents Christianity is off base. The basic party line of the Democrats is an anti-Judeo-Christian machine that continually erodes my Constitutional right against government prohibiting my free exercise of religion. Nobody is forced to participate in religion, and there is no law stating that the Anglican or Catholic or Baptist church is the official religion of the land. That was the intent of the limitation clause in the 1st amendment, NOT to remove God and any references of God in the government, rebuilding the nation in the image of man instead of the Creator, be he Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, or Jesus Christ.

[grampster]

When have "values" been an attribute for any politician?

Politics has always been about money and power...money and power to promote an agenda held by a few (The Party) and supported by the many (Sheeple). Representative democracy in our Constitutional Republic depends upon good men standing up and involved, knowledgeable people supporting them. Well, history shows us that many of those who have stood up have been scoundrels. The people are not very knowledgeable or involved and it is showing.

To say that Dean is any worse than any other politician is a stretch. Imho, a few of them are honorable. Maybe even more than a few. But the lust for money and power draws the scoundrels like manure draws flies. I don't trust any of em. Dean or for that matter any politician rarely sticks by his principles when push comes to shove and it involves the possibility of losing the money or the power. Until the man on the street begins to pay attention and demand that our leaders have the interests of our country first and foremost, then all we're gonna get is more of the same socialistic crap from the right and the left, as we stand by and watch our freedom eroded slowly but surely.

I'm not sure that there is a solution...history also shows us that every civilization decays. It's maybe taking a bit longer for America because of how we got our start and the freedoms that we have enjoyed. In the past the media shouted freedom from the rooftops. Now all they do is hold it up to scorn and are in lockstep with the Nanny State.

I'm starting to get exercised and I feel a rant coming on...stop now. sigh.... :(

[RevDisk]

Yes, we should be promoting the 2nd Amendment among all parties, and you are correct that there really is no real difference between Dean and Bush on guns. Neither of them are activaly banning them, but neither of them are doing a dang thing to repeal the useless and unConstitutional laws that we have on the books.

The Republicans have proven their ineptness in being any different from the Democrats in most areas of public policy -- even after the majority of Americans rejected the Democratic party platform in the last election. Instead of getting to work on the issues that the majority of Americans find important, they extended the olive branch and said, "Now we can work together in Congress to get things done." They won, their constituents voted them in for a reason. They should be cleaning up in Congress by reflecting what their constituents want -- within the realm of the Constitution, of course.

Indeed. In my opinion, the Republican Party has failed to live up to its promises. Democrats are usually fairly honest about their intentions. Their rational and "reasons" are always murky, but they're up front about their overall intentions. They have the courtesy of stabbing you in the chest, rather than the back.

The Republican Party refuses to do anything about dismantling gun control. They won't directly support it, but they absolutely do not go out of their way to rolling back the clock. I don't count the Assault Weapons Bill. They did nothing and chose to ignore it. While this was not bad, it wasn't a sign of support of RKBA. Bush made some ambivalent comments regarding the AWB, I believe meantioning that he would sign it if it crossed his desk.

So, the question is, what now? What does one do if both political parties refuse to fix the situation?



Your premise that most Democrats are Christians is true, but your premise that the Democratic party represents Christianity is off base. The basic party line of the Democrats is an anti-Judeo-Christian machine that continually erodes my Constitutional right against government prohibiting my free exercise of religion. Nobody is forced to participate in religion, and there is no law stating that the Anglican or Catholic or Baptist church is the official religion of the land. That was the intent of the limitation clause in the 1st amendment, NOT to remove God and any references of God in the government, rebuilding the nation in the image of man instead of the Creator, be he Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, or Jesus Christ.

I don't believe I said the Democratic Party represents Christianity.


The First Amendment :

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


While I don't claim to be a Constitutional scholar, my take on the Constitution's view of religion is "all or none". Allowing one religion to post its writings, codes, commandments, slogans, etc and forbidding equal space for any other religion is a no-no. Similiarly, allowing all religions except for a specific religion is a no-no.

The Declaration of Indepence quotes "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" and "Creator". It does not at any point specifically meantion any religion's deity (not Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, Yahweh or Jesus Christ). The line in question is "the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them". The Constitution doesn't meantion God, Nature's God, or Creator.

You are correct that the Constitution forbids Congress from denying you free exercise of religion. It also forbids Congress from giving any religion preferential treatment.

If you want to open the door to religion in government, be prepared for the consequences. Minority and "odd" religions would have as equal footing as established "respectable" religions.

[Desertdog]

Minority and "odd" religions would have as equal footing as established "respectable" religions.
They already give prefrences in many instances.

There was the school district that had to allow the students of one religon to wear their ceremonial knife to school. Instant expulsion for any other student with any knife.

LA CA had to remove the small cross from th city seal and the new seal had a Aztec godess on it.

The Manorah and Muslim Crest display on city property but not the Nativity Scene.

San Jose CA had to remove a Ten Commandment monument and the city installed a Mayan Godess statue in it's place. Court said that's alright.

I am sure THRs can list many , many more examples.

[RevDisk]

They already give prefrences in many instances.

There was the school district that had to allow the students of one religon to wear their ceremonial knife to school. Instant expulsion for any other student with any knife.

Those would be kirpans. They have deep religious meaning to Sikhs, which happen to be the fifth largest religion in the world. Asking a Sikh to not wear his karpan is like asking a Jew to take off his star of David or a Christian to take off his cross. Not bloody likely.



Still, we're getting slightly off topic. My original point, which has probably been lost, is that Dean worships Christianity in his own way. As far as I know, he's not anti-Christian or anti-religion. Most of the Democratic party is not. A handful of real anti-religious loonies do enjoy tossing lawsuits around. Some are valid, others are questionable. It's for the courts to decide which is which.

While I seriously doubt the Democrats will deeply embrace the second amendment, pro-2A folks could try being supportive of Dems that want to leave gun control alone. Will the politicians change later? Probably. But since the Republicans don't intend to do anything about gun control, time to start looking for unlikely allies.