[Min]

I used to think the .45 ACP was the end all caliber for self defense, but lately I've been looking at the 9mm again. Ballistically, the 9mm +P loads are not that much weaker than the .45 std loads, it just has a smaller diameter.

Between my three favorite semi-auto calibers: 10 mm, 9 mm, and .45 ACP, I'll lean toward the 10 mm of course, but as of now the 9 mm is moving up to second place.

Anyone else feel the .45 is slow, and rather anemic compared to other calibers - 10mm, 9mm, .357 Sig. (I don't include the .40 S&W because personally, I don't like it).

[Rob96]

A lot of people can do more with les, so to speak. As most wold agree, all of the rounds are within very few percentage points when comparing quality defensive ammunition.

[pogo2]

Boy, are you swimming against the current.

[Al Thompson]

IMHO, there's not really much difference with your choices with the exception (maybe) of the .357 sig or 10mm. I haven't killed anything with one of those, so have no experiance there.

Testing in varius animals suggests to me that a good JHP works well - but it's a handgun, not a rifle. I think that handguns are very similar in effects to an arrow. The bullet tends to cut things and, absent a CNS hit, they bleed out.

Over the years I've had several non-hunting friends shoot animate targets and come away distressed at the lack of damage. Flesh isn't waterjugs or mud or gelatin.

Hardball is especially poor - but usually drills a hole through what ever you shoot with it. That''s not always a bad thing, but even .45 ball tends to give you a bruised spot the size of a dime with a cut in the middle. Give me a good JHP anyday - at least I get cookie cutting even if it dosen't open up.

HTH

[Ian11]

Most 9mm defense loads that tend to be as effective as the .45 are usually +P or +P+. While many effective loads in .45 can be readily found as standard pressure cartridges. That means I can practice with similar practice loads and not be "surprised" when I shoot defense loads.

Although these days I primarily rely on a Glock 21 loaded with 230 grain Remington GS I'd feel just as well protected with my SIG P226 9mm loaded with Winchester Ranger 147 grain (standard pressure). Again, shot placement. Shot placement.

[CWL]

It's not the equiptment, it's the operator.

ALL handgun rounds underperform. 80% of ALL handgun wounds are survivable.

[Dave Markowitz]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. :)

(200th post. w00t!)

[Min]

If shot placement is so tantamount, then my conclusion is I would rather carry a 9mm cal gun with +P loads. One 9mm placed well should do the trick.

I wonder if I will have the presence of mind during a time when I will actually need to pull the trigger to save my life, to be able to place the shot where I need to.

[CWL]

Min,

If that last comment were true, then you dont need a gun at all, since the bullet doesn't matter anyways.

You seem to lack that "mental edge" or willingness to fight, survive and win a battle. This is usually the only true edge one has over another when in grave conflict.

You can solve this with training. Get your body to respond automatically without having to think about where to place the shot. This comes from thousands & thousands of rounds of bullets downrange -and I seriously advise you to spend $$ on professional training. This is more valuable than caliber of bullet.

[DeltaElite]

10mm and 45acp, everything else is just a compromise. :D

It is truly shot placement, but I like bigger holes in handgun calibers.

[Graystar]

One thing is for sure....the great performance of the .45 in the street. You can't argue with success.

[Double Naught Spy]

While shot placement is no doubt tantamount, the fact of the matter for most shootings is that people often are unable to have the shots land on the places intended. It may not that they aimed wrong or jerked the trigger, but that some other facet affected where the shot landed such as a heavy cross wind, a sudden movement by the intended target just as the trigger is pulled, etc. Of course, many simply are unable to put shots specifically where needed under stress. As a result, people learn to shoot COM (center of mass) such that even if the shot does not hit just where intended, it has the greatest likelihood of still hitting the intended target. In other words, it gives you the most room for error while still managing a hit.

Given that the shots often don't land where intended or hoped, I think it is important to go with a caliber and load that will create a goodly amount of damage anyway. In that case, the larger calibers (.45 acp and 10 mm) would tend to have the advantage and make bigger holes and hopefully tear up more on the inside. Even if you shoot a 9 mm hollowpoint that does expand, it still isn't going to expand much more than a ball .45 round.

Everyone is right in that the differences are not that great between the calibers, at least on a general level. That said, I am happier with a caliber that is more likely to have better results, even if the likelihood is only 2-5% greater over another caliber. It is an odds thing, kind of like the House of a gambling casino having slightly better odds of better their customers and so they continually turn profits even though some of the gamblers are about to beat the house significantly, but those are few.

[Hackworth92FS]

Funny. I find it funny that we debate how much bulets actually hurt. The best statement I've ever heard deals with shot placement. If me and someone else were to get in a gunfight, lets imagine this situation. My enemy in the gunfight hits me in the leg with his super load .45. I hit the enemy in the heart with my Walmart brand standard 9mm load. I think the only resolution to such a gun battle is this.....I limp away from my enemy's dead body. Shot placement...Shot placement. The reason to pratice shooting is not just to hit hwta you aim at, but also to be calm and consistent in regards to your shots. All the gunfights in regards to cops and badguys usually end up with empty magizines on both sides. Pratice and imagine your shooting at a person or animal that has reactions. This simple technique will help anyone. Paper targets are meant to be cut, not to move and react. Bullets will hurt and kill in many cases, regardless of caliber.

[sm]

I subscribe to shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

Use Enough Gun

Be 'first with the most"

Platform, caliber, gun fit, allowing quick accurate hits, for individual .

Survival is the objective, nobody will remember the details, just that you did or didn't survive.

[mpthole]

If y'all want to know about shot placement, read this thread (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126319) and practice your failure drills. Look for posts by "RoadRep". His first one is about 7 down from the start. Two to the body - One to the head.

[CWL]

Failure drills, yep.

Guys with holes in their hearts don't necessarily go down immediately. Lots of instances where BGs hit in the heart are found dead 100 yards away.

Recent event in Richmond, CA where LEOs were shooting it out with a BG up flight of stairs, he walked down said stairs shooting at cops the whole time. The cop at the bottom would shoot two COM, duck, shoot two COM , duck and repeat. He walked right by this cop and out into street where he was finally dropped by load of 12ga 00 buck. They later found out that he had taken 6 shots of .45ACP into the heart area and yet he was still able to walk & fire his weapon.

No guarantees in life.

[Ian11]

Hackworth92FS,

But.....if the guy with the .45 super load hits an artery in the leg I doubt the ambulance would arrive in time. Even a leg hit can kill fairly quickly.

CWL,

That is a scary story.:what:

[Double Naught Spy]

Ian11 makes a good point, Hackworth92FS. So you stopped your guy quick with a shot to the heart. Congratulations. Too bad that .45 Super round has destroyed a chunk of your femoral artery. Technically, you won, but in the big picture, the best you did was a draw because neither of you survived and in my book, that would count as a loss. If you don't live long enough to be able to tell your grandkids about your glory days of the fight, then things really didn't work out all that well.

Another way I like to look at the situation on gun calibers is to consider what calibers I would prefer my enemy to have should I end up in a fight. By and large, the smaller my enemy's caliber, the happier I am. As the caliber shrinks, his chances for being able to stop me or stop me quickly diminish.

[agtman]

"Given that the shots often don't land where intended or hoped ..., the larger calibers (.45 acp and 10 mm) would tend to have the advantage and make bigger holes and hopefully tear up more on the inside."


Bingo.

People repeat "shot placement, shot placement" like it's some sort of magical incantation that will somehow compensate for the historically iffy "stopping power" of lesser calibers, most notably the .355 caliber (9mm).

Yeah, in a perfect world with perfect shot placement you really wouldn't need anything more than a .22 long rifle for defensive use against humans where a handgun is involved.

But - except in a very small percentage of actual shootings - where that first bullet hits is usually anything but ideal (i.e., CNS hits or headshots).

Hence, the larger, heavier and/or more penetrating calibers (.40S&W/45acp/10mm) will help overcome the variable element of "shooter error" if shot placement ain't exactly perfect. These calibers create a larger wound channel and/or penetrate more deeply, thereby increasing the likelihood of damaging vital organs and hastening incapacitation.

As for the three larger calibers - .40/45/10mm - the 10mm is simply the most versatile, capable of doing everything the other two can do and more, although I very much respect the .45acp and would carry it again without hesitation if my 10mm were unavailable.

[Blueduck]

I find it funny that we debate how much bulets actually hurt. Playing into that one..

One of my sisters friends was in a liquer store many years ago. Bad guy came in fired one shot and took her hostage, she jumped out of his car on the freeway and got away. Only when the police were interviewing her 20 minutes later did anyone (including herself) realize that the shot fired from the 357 magnum (unknown load) had went through her shoulder :what: This was an 18 year old slightly built girl, not drunk or on drugs. 15 years later the man who did it was recently executed for a murder he commited later that night. She is STILL having surgeries to repair the damage done by that round.

I also recall a video of a man shot centermass with a 45 acp by a tropper. After being shot the man was standing there telling the trooper "Go ahead shoot me again &#(@$!"

From those two incidents sounds like we need to look into big and fast or small and slow. Hey lots of stopping power theories are based on less data than that ;)

[Handy]

I don't think the .45 is anemic, but it isn't the magnum some people like to talk about it as. It's slow and heavy.

It seems to me that if you really want a heavy hitter because you don't trust more standard defence rounds, you should be carrying 10mm. It's got weight and velocity.

I think 9 is fine. Transitioning from practice loads to +P is not really a problem-the gun acts the same, just recoils a little more. It's nice to have one gun that can shoot a really heavy load yet be able to practice at $5 a box.

Practice makes perfect.


I'll take the artery over the heart shot, thank you. At least a surgeon has a good chance of repairing that.

[cratz2]

As much as I admire and respect the 45ACP, esp in the 1911 platform, I would feel completely safe defending my life with a 9mm, 40S&W, 357 SIG, 10mm, 357 Magnum, 38 Special +P when loaded with good HP ammo.

Having said that, I think I would personally stop short of calling the 45ACP loadings such as Gold Dots, Golden Sabers or Rangers 'rather anemic.'

[DonGlock26]

I know of a case where a .45 silvertip failed to penetrate a skull at close range(same round didn't go very far through a cabinet after an A.D.) . I've seen the 9mm FMJ do the opposite with excellent results. Shot placement is key and I've read where Israeli Special forces go right for the head in CQB. I've read the gun scribes say you can't go after the head, but the heart isn't bigger than the head. People can survive headwounds, but they often don't stay in the fight. I trust my 9mm,.40,.45 to do a good job if I respect their limitations.

[10-Ring]

Really simple. It comes down to what you feel most comfortable using especially when you consider the purpose behind using the calibers you've chosen.
Really, you are well served in the calibers you've chosen for self defense us. ;)

[ojibweindian]

Regardless of caliber, shoot them till they stop, or you run out of bullets. Doing anything less is self-defeatism.

[HKcenterMass]

How about a combination? Shotplacement + .45... or shot placement + .45 super :neener:

[Bobarino]

in reading the ballistics tables for various factory JHP loads, it seems to mee that the 9mm 115gr +p at ~1250 fps, .40S&W 135-155gr at ~1150fps, and the .45 165-185gr +P at 1050 fps all deliver about 500 ft/lbs of enery into the target. yes the .45 makes a bigger hole than 9mm, but the size of the entry wound doesn't necessarily translate into more rapid blood loss. remember there is stretch cavity and permantent would cavity sizes to consider also. but those also depend of what kind of tissue the bullet goes in to. want rappid blood loss? shoot them in the liver. liver tissue doesn't stretch very far before it tears, so a good expanding hollow point will darn near explode a liver from the stretch cavity effect. want them go down now? shoot them in the neck and hit the spine. CNS overload will paralyze an attacker. want both? shoot them in the heart. rapid blood loss and the spine is right behind it. best chance of one or the other or both happening. this is just my opinion by the way, but to me, caliber size really doesn't make that big of a difference. ALL handgun calibers are underpowered for stopping a crazed, drugged up attacker. use whatever floats your boat. after 100 years of modern handguns, nobody has come up with the "miracle bullet" in the "miracle caliber" they all work well for all intents and purposes, and they all are inadequte. its all just acedemic debate.

that said, i've chosen the .40S&W 155gr hydra-shok's. in my opinion, it is the best compromise between capacity, energy transfer, velocity, managable recoil, ammo choices, and "stopping power" if there is such a thing. (ok i admit it, i was influenced by Marshall and Sanow too.)

all handgun calibers are a bunch of compromises. speed vs. weight. capacity vs. bullet size. etc etc ad nauseum.

whatever makes you more secure and confident in your firearm/shooting abilities, and the one that makes you feel warm and fuzzy when you carry should be your calibler of choice.

just my opinion(s)

Bobby

[Scott Evans]

Regardless of caliber, shoot them till they stop, or you run out of bullets. Doing anything less is self-defeatism.

Concur!

[BHP9]

While the .45 acp has been proven in combat it is not the best caliber in all situations.

1. Penetration: The 9mm has 10 times the penetration of the .45acp. Proven in U.S. miltary test trials as far back as 1948. Steel helmets were penetrated at a phenominal 130 yards with the 9mm an only at a scant 30 yards with the .45 ACP. No peneteration , no incapacitation. People often hide behind cars, doors , walls etc. Heavy clothing and jackets can also slow down a bullet. A person shot first through the arm will often stop or slow down the .45acp to the point that it will not penetrate deeply enough into the body. Even the tremendous peneteration of the 9mm is often not enough in this senario as witnessed in the famous Miami shoot out where a 9mm went through the arm and stopped just short of the heart. The .45 would not have even done this well in the same situation. AS the range increases the effectiveness of the .45 ACP goes down dramatically.

2. Recoil. Most people simply do not shoot the full powder .45acp loads as well as the milder recoiling 9mm.

3. Capacity. The nine can hold up to over double the amount of firepower. There is never enough ammo to spare in a firefight.

4. Size and weight. Most but not all .45's are often bigger , bulkier and heavier than similiar guns in 9mm. As the size goes down the recoil goes up dramatically in small .45 ACP guns as compared to similiar size small 9mm guns.

[OKC .45 ACP]

I don't necessarily want overpenetration. I don't want my bullet to penetrate and hit an innocent bystander. Since I'm probably not going to be shooting people wearing helmets, that interesting fact doesn't apply to my situation.

If I recall correctly, our military adopted the .45 because it stopped people from doing bad things to our troops. The standard issue S&W .38 didn't stop people from plunging a spear in their chests. The .45 ACP did. We switched to 9mm due to political B.S. to make NATO people happy. Seems they were shooting .308, .223, and wanted the U.S. to adopt a "European" caliber. Poor decision. The word from the troops in Afghanistan is that 9mm doesn't stop people from doing bad things to people. .45 ACP does. That's why .45's are as sought after as diamonds by our troops right now. That's why Delta Force carries a .45 ACP 1911. I'd take their word for what works over anything I would read in a ballistics table. That's my 02 cents.

Be safe,

[Al Thompson]

OKC if you'd specified "FMJ" or hardball, I'd completely agree with you. IMHO, I've found that 9mm JHPs work fine. Check Stephen Camp's doe for a good pic of what a proper 9mm JHP can do. :)

[agtman]

"No penetration, no incapacitation."


Correct.

See: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm (Peruse the paragraphs under "Ammunition Selection Criteria").

"People often hide behind cars, doors, walls, etc. Heavy clothing and jackets can also slow down a bullet."

Exactly.

Where penetration of intervening barriers is called for, the 10mm Auto bested both the 9mm and the .45 acp in the FBI's testing of barriers frequently encounter in LE, e.g., wood, various metals and auto glass. It also proved to be the most accurate caliber of those tested.

See Hall's report discussing this:

http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/10mmpist.html

"The .45 would not have even done this well in the same situation [Miami, 4/11/86]. AS the range increases the effectiveness of the .45 ACP goes down dramatically."

Sheer speculation as to the .45. However, range and energy dissipation aren't issues for the 10mm, even when loaded to less than full-strength. Unfortunately, the 10mm wasn't an option for Bureau agents in 1986, and Detective Crocket was busy elsewhere. For that matter, at the distances encountered in the Miami shootout, even the 180gn .40S&W would have penetrated Platt's vitals (pulmonary artery, lung & heart) further than did the 115gn 9mm STHP, which proved to be a miserable failure when needed most.

"2. Recoil. Most people simply do not shoot the full powder .45acp loads as well as the milder recoiling 9mm."

Way overstated. Some people find a .380 tough to hang on to. Then there are females, like Tamara & others, who have no problems shooting the more "energetic cartridges." (See, e.g., M&S, "Stopping Power" (2001), pp. 272-273). Then again, some people are wusses. So what?

"3. Capacity. ..."

Only an issue if you plan on missing a lot. Many don't, which is why single-stack 1911s holding less than 10-rounds are still popular.

"4. Size and weight. ..."

Possibly that's an issue where large-framed all-steel autoloaders are involved (which some people still favor :) ), but with the proliferation of the smaller polymer Glocks, available in all common calibers, it's become a nonissue.


:cool:

[DeltaElite]

Why is this even debated.
The 10mm outperforms the 9mm and 45acp easily. :neener:

Ok, continue bickering. :D

[firestar]

ALL handgun rounds underperform. 80% of ALL handgun wounds are survivable.

Well that is a 20% kill rate. Just shoot them 5 times each! Try that with a 1911 against more than one person!:what: :neener:

Seriously, if you had to go up against a couple of Hells Angels armed only with a pistol and no time to reload or couldn't find/get to your extra mag, what would you want? Lets keep it somewhat real and say that the gun would have to be carriable and on your person when you needed it.

I would pick a hi cap something, I don't care if it is 9m .40 or .45 so long as I had enough ammo and I could carry it and shoot it well. That leaves out the Glock 21, it is just a tad to big in the grip for me. I really like the looks, feel and wieght of the Walther 99 or whatever it is called. Ruger P95 would be good too. Sorry CZ-75 and BHP, your too heavy, Glocks are too thick and 1911s are not hi caps. Sigs would work also.

[BHP9]

Where penetration of intervening barriers is called for, the 10mm Auto bested both the 9mm and the .45 acp in the FBI's testing of barriers frequently encounter in LE, e.g., wood, various metals and auto glass. It also proved to be the most accurate caliber of those tested

I read with great interest your reply and it has a lot of merit as to the opposing side of the argument which is bigger and faster is better but lets take a hard look at the history of the 10mm.

The 10mm has been a resounding failure both commercially and in police circles. Why?

One reason is that the 10mm is such a powerful handgun that it faced the same problems the 44 magnum did back when the police used the antique and outmoded revolvers. Just too much muzzle blast and recoil and a weapon that had to be made very large and heavy to take all the pounding that the 44 magnum generated. This problem was exacurbated dramatically when a like cartridge was put into an automatic pistol that was designed originally for a far weaker recoiling round which was the .45 acp. Many handguns that were chambered for this cartridge literally self-destructed in record time and the few handguns that did hold up had to be built so heavy that it was not a very practical pistol to carry even in a holster for police use.

There are limits as to what is practical in a pistol cartridge. Once you exceed a certain amount of recoil, muzzle blast, weight and service life of the gun you reach a point that makes the weapon impractical for everyday use. This is exactly why both the 44 magnum and 10mm both failed. Dirty Harry in the fictional movies may look good on screen but reality is quite another story.

[DeltaElite]

Is the 10mm that powerful or are people just wimps?
I vote wimps. :D

Sadly buyers go with what the military or police use, what their friends tell them to buy or what the gun rags suggest. :rolleyes:
When the data is examined with a non-biased eye, it is easy to see the superiority of the 10mm in both its versatility and power.

To believe anything else is to deny the facts.

Shoot what you like, but don't try to tell me that the 10mm is inferior to 9mm, 40sw or 45acp.

Thanks for your cooperation. :D

[JohnKSa]

So you stopped your guy quick with a shot to the heart. Congratulations. Too bad that .45 Super round has destroyed a chunk of your femoral artery.
The artery would be destroyed if he had been using a 9mm instead of a .45 Super...

When you make a good hit, caliber doesn't matter much. When you don't make a good hit, caliber doesn't matter at all.

Like someone once said about hunting with camo. "If you move, critters will see you even if you're wearing camo. If you don't move they won't see you even without camo."

It's all technique.

[New_comer]

Well, well...

Another convert to the fast and light academy.... :D

You're most welcome to the club! ;) :cool:

[HKcenterMass]

only 20% kill rate with hand guns? Damn the 9mm for killing that average! :)

But really, I wouldnt say that capacity is an issue with the right platform. 12+1 in my HK 45...3 less than some 9mm high caps. Weight isnt an issue, ive got the polymer frame going on there...penetration, no big deal, +p or +p+, all that and a bigger projectile... plus, living a climate that is only without heavy clothing for 3-4 mos, I wouldnt have to worry about my 9mm JHP expanding... if my .45 JHP expands, sweet! if it doesnt, i'm still a step ahead. I'm not feeling under gunned with the 9mm, but i do feel better protected with the .45 just MHO.

[arinvolvo]

I bought some CorBon +p 9mm JHP 125 grain 1250fps 434 ft/lbs blah blah blah bullets at the local gun store.

I then proceeded to load them 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 with Winchester white box 115 ball ammo. I then shot target with them out of my Steyr M9...to my surprise, I could not tell the difference in recoil....I actually lost track of which shot was up next..

I was expecting some sort of thrilling difference in recoil...but no dice.:confused:

I am assuming that it is due to the design of the steyr, low bore axis etc...The gun recoils like a pellet gun as it is....But I was dissapointed....I was hoping to scream WOOOOOHOOOOO! after the first CorBon Shot.:uhoh: :(

[ahadams]

shot placement, first last and always shot placement. That being said 9mm has overpenetration (or in the case of silver tips UNDER penetration) issues which preclude me from ever taking it seriously as a selfdefense round.

I prefer the .45 because I can shoot it well and I know that even if the guy is wearing body armor two or three hits on COM will insure at least a few broken ribs and a punctured lung...that sort of thing tends to slow a person down, y'know?

10mm would be nice but I can't afford it (as in even if I could afford a 10mm handgun, the couple of thousand rounds I'd need to gain and maintain proficiency would cost more bucks than simply sticking with the .45 that the army paid for me to learn how to shoot right).

[ojibweindian]

I'd like to re-iterate my previous post:

Shoot them till they drop, or shoot them till you run out of bullets. Do NOT bet your life on the mythical stopping power of the .45, or the penetration abilities of the 9mm, ad nauseum, ad infintum.

People can take an awful lot of punishment, and short of a 155mm howitzer (obvious exageration to illustrate a point), there isn't any caliber that I trust to put a person down in one shot.

[Double Naught Spy]

To ojibweindian's statement I would add that there are all sorts of examples of people surviving all sorts of ballistic damage and still fighting, ESPECIALLY from handguns of every caliber. If you only option is to use a handgun, then use it, but know that you are in deep doodoo already by putting your life on the line by using a very less than ideal tool.

Oh, and I really liked the statement about 9 mm having 10 times the penetration of .45 acp. That was funny!! Next time I am attacked by guys protecting themselves with vintage WWII steel pot helmets, I will break out the 9 mm.

[Rob96]

I have also seen test results where the 9mm does a better job of penetration than the 45acp. Comparing the 9mm+p 124gr Gold Dot to the 230gr Gold Dot, the 9mm did better against barrieirs than the 45acp.

[TDDude]

Shoot what you can afford to practice with.

9mm & .45 can be had from Russian manufacturers or army surplus all day long for not much money. All those other calibers cost half again or twice as much for simple practice ammo.

As CCW holders, we need to practice at least once a week. Not only is it a great way to bleed off stress at the end of a trying day, it's practical and fun. Costs are $5.00 range fee plus a couple bucks for targets and shoot & Sees. $10.50 for a box of 100 Winchester 115gr 9mm from Wal-Mart or online Brown Bear for the same price. I usually shoot 150 rounds at a setting practicing self made up drills. Such as draw and fire in under 2 seconds, Draw and fire two shots in 3 seconds. I also practice changing clips by having one in the chamber with an empty clip. The pistol locks open, I then PRACTICE lifting my shirt with my left hand, opening the flap on my mag scabbard, ejecting the empty, and reloading, hit the release and shoot TWICE. Anyway, I have other drills that I've made up but by the time I've gone through my routine, I've burned about $25.00 in ammo, targets and range fees. Once a week of this is $100.00 a month. Had I purchased a 10mm that would easily have to be a $200.00 a month or more and the budget is stretched enough as it is. Reloading isnt' an option for me right now as I don't have the garage space.

Saying this, I chose a 9mm over a .45 because of the extra mag capacity.

Shoot what you can afford to practice with.

[agtman]

Fuzzy math. :scrutiny:


"Had I purchased a 10mm that would easily have to be a $200.00 a month or more ... Reloading isnt' an option for me right now..."

:rolleyes:

I don't reload for 10mm, but let's take your numbers and actually do the math with easily acquired 10mm practice ammo from Georgia Arms: 1000rd case of 10mm/180gn FMJ. Cost = $180. That's 18-cents per rd/$9 per 50rds.

"I usually shoot 150 rounds at a setting ..."

Great. Doing the same, I've just shot up $27 worth of 10mm ammo.

"...I've burned about $25.00 in ammo, targets and range fees. Once a week of this is $100.00 a month."

Well, I pretty much make my own targets or occasionally buy what I need super cheap in volume at gunshows. But let's stick with ammo costs alone. A weekly outings that consumes $27 in 10mm ammo each time is $108 per month in practice ammo cost. Even factoring-in for range fees and the use of gold plated targets, you're still nowhere near "$200 a month."

"Shoot what you can afford to practice with."

No argument there. And if you know where to look, you can find competitively-priced 10mm practice ammo that's no harder on your wallet - and in some cases easier on it - than .40S&W, .357Sig or .45acp from the Big Three. ;)

Sure, 9mm can be had even cheaper for practice, which is why there's no downside to owning one for that purpose.

:cool:

[JohnKSa]

I prefer the .45 because I can shoot it well and I know that even if the guy is wearing body armor two or three hits on COM will insure at least a few broken ribs and a punctured lung
I seriously doubt that you're going to get broken ribs or punctured lungs by shooting someone wearing a vest with a .45.

The best vests these days will stop a rifle bullet without even making the wearer miss a step. Even the lowest threat level stops a .45. Most vests in use these days will handily stop a .45 and should allow the wearer to keep functioning normally.

If you want to use a pistol to hurt someone wearing a typical vest you're going to have to get near the top end of the power/velocity spectrum. 10mm, any of the true magnums, or the 7.62x25 come to mind.

[Min]

What JohnKSa said. Besides, even if they suffer broken ribs, the adrenalin pumping through their body will still allow them to try and take you out.

[Blackhawk]

Haven't ever needed a CCW, so my caliber selection criteria for them is more based on the guns I like and like to shoot plus a bunch of otherwise irrelevant factors.

Right now, my caliber choice is 9mm, my CCW choices are DAO selfstuffers, and my first shot is a head shot. Subject to change, just like my mind.... :D

[Nightcrawler]

Couple things I would preferred cleared up.

Shot placement is, of course, important. But if it's the only thing, why aren't you all carrying 9x19mms? Why anybody with .357s and .45 +Ps? Especially the .40 shooters. The guns that are available in .40 are almost always available in 9mm, and the 9mms offer cheaper ammo, less recoil, and higher capacity. If 9mm is really just as good why doesn't everyone use a 9mm as a carry gun, and save the revolvers and 1911s for range shooting?

Another question. "Failure to stop drills"....if you CAN shoot them in the head, why not just do that first? Isn't it possible that if, after your first shot or two, the badguy might still be approaching because you missed? It's possible, you know. Given that possibility, is it really wise to make your next move to aim for a smaller, harder to hit target?

[cratz2]

If I ever need to use a handgun to defend myself or a loved one, if I get the perpetrator to stop doing what made me decided to shop them, I've succeeded. I would tend to think a double tap to the center of mass or slightly above the center of mass would get them to at least slow down. If they slowed down and I felt another shot was required, a round into the ocular/nasal cavity would be my primary choice, if possible.

All this is assuming I am able to keep my wits about me and shoot where I intended to shoot. I'm pretty level-headed but yo'll never know until you really find out. ;)

[shepsan]

This is a very interesting thread. If I may, I would like to offer my subjective opinion.

The handgun I carry is a .45 caliber 1911 semiautomatic pistol loaded with 230-grain ammunition. I have chosen this weapon to use to defend against an unexpected attacker whose aggression is life threatening. If the threat is distant, I will run from it, making the type and caliber of the handgun I carry unimportant. However, if the attacker is in close proximity to me, then many factors come into play.

Experience has shown me that I cannot shoot well with many types of revolvers or pistols. Some do not fit my hand comfortably. Others, when fired tend to cut and hurt the web of my hand between my right thumb and index finger. Still others are too light or in some cases, simply too heavy for me to properly control. There are also handguns whose balance impedes my quickly realigning target after recoil.

Therefore, the first factor of the equation determining my choice of handgun for defensive purposes is that the gun fit my hand well and that it has a good relationship between its weight and balance.

The second part of the equation is that of training. It is irrelevant if the gun fits my hand well and has a good balance if I cannot constantly place hits where I aim. My remedy for this is to practice technique and marksmanship on a frequent basis. It is through frequent practice that I hope to develop conditioned responses that will automatically come into play when aggressor confronts me. Of importance is that I develop good and not bad habits in my practice.

The third consideration is the matter of striking or if you will, stopping power of the ammunition I use. I have read many articles about the stopping power of various calibers and weights of bullets. However, reading statistics about penetration in gelatin and such has never really made a vivid impression on me. It was not until I participated in a defensive pistol class that I was able to form an opinion about stopping power of a specific caliber of weapon and ammunition.

There were fourteen shooters in my class. Some of the participants carried .380 cal, .38 cal, 9mm and .40 .cal handguns. I used a .45 cal 1911 and alternated magazines with Sellier & Bellot 230 grain FMJ rounds and Federal Hydra-shok 230 grain JHP rounds.

During one drill, three metal targets were spaced on the same horizontal line three feet apart. The center target was 10 yards from our firing position. Whereas a single shot fired from my 1911 (using either of my types of ammo) brought down each target when I hit centermass, it took multiply taps from those using .40 caliber to level the metal targets. It took even more rounds from those shooting smaller caliber handguns to bring down the individual metal targets.

This class dismissed any doubts I might have had about what gun to carry or about the caliber of ammunition necessary to stop an aggressor. I recognize that a bullet striking a metal target is not the same as a bullet striking flesh and bone. However, I do have an observation about my shooting with .45 caliber ammunition.

I have closely examined my paper targets and have found an interesting thing about my ability to place hits and the kind of holes my two types of ammunition make. I am a slightly better shot when I use 230 grain FMJ with any of my 1911’s than when I shoot 230 grain JHP. I do not know why this is so. My groups are tighter with the FMJ regardless of distance. However, the shape of the hole is with JHP is more jagged than the FMJ.

Taking all of these things into consideration, I find that the fit and balance of the 1911 suits me best and I am developing good training techniques by frequent practice. I also know that my marksmanship is good with either FMJ or JHP ammo. The bottom line is I am confident that if I must confront an aggressor, I am armed with the kind of handgun and ammunition to stop the aggressor.

[krept]

Good post.

If you can't hit fast AND accurate enough with your chosen platform or caliber, you must either

- dedicate yourself to that combo and train until it becomes second nature

- use different gear.

[DonGlock26]

I'm with you, Blackhawk!

[TDDude]

OK, So I like to exaggerate when making a point. It's more fun. :)

However, by your own numbers, and even from Georgia Arms website, the 9mm I've found costs half as much as the 10mm that GA has listed and twice as much is twice as much. And don't forget shipping. It costs me about $16 per 1000 rnds when I get online ammo. If one orders 200lbs worth of "stuff" at a time, (7 cases) this shipping charge is reduced by a little more than half. I'm not sure what the exact amount is but it just about pays for that 7th box (if it's 9mm of course).

[goon]

I doubt that a bad guy would walk away from a few well placed hits with any of the above.
But the .45ACP is slow. When I had mine, I could shoot at about 40 yds and see the bullets on their way to the target.
It was kinda cool:D

My failure to stop drill involves me with my hands around the bad guy's throat. He should be pretty weak after I shoot him full of holes.;)

[agtman]

TDDude:

Wasn't trying to flame you in my earlier post. Just trying to dispel the myth that 10mm ammo, always and everywhere, costs an arm and a leg and half your gun collection. It doesn't.

You're right that, as compared to 9mm, the relative prices for the larger pistol calibers (.40S&W/10mm/45acp) are higher.

But decent prices for practice ammo (again, in 40/10mm/45) are really closer in these calibers than most people realize. Most "weekend shooters" think nothing of walking into the corner gunshop and paying full rip-off retail. But much better prices are available elsewhere, especially if you buy by the case load. You just have to do a little research. It always amazes me when some poster claims that he can't afford 10mm at "$30 a box."

The option of easily buying on-line from these smaller outfits, like Georgia Arms or ProLoad, and the ability of these places to offer competitive prices in all calibers against the Big Name ammomakers, keeps us big bore owners "in the game," so to speak, because now we can afford to practice more. There's reloading, of course, but many simply don't have the time for it.

"And don't forget shipping."


At least a couple of the times that I ordered from GA (1000rd case orders), shipping was FREE, because my FFL also placed orders for others.

Can't beat that. :)

http://www.georgia-arms.com

[goon]

Another option would be learning how to reload.
I know that some don't want the trouble or have the time, but it would be worth looking into if you want to be able to shoot more.
You won't save money, because you will just shoot up your profit margin.:D
Also, I don't know if S&B makes 10mm, but I know that they make 9mm, .40, and .45. I have shot quite a bit of the 9mm and have found it to be as good as domestic stuff, but it is loaded hotter.
Makes UMC look like a sissy load...
Anyhow, it is generally cheaper than the domestic stuff too.

[StressPuppy]

shepsan -- Good post.

The most important point of shepsan's post, IMO, was that he/she is more accurate with the 1911. To me, it is like arguing over buying a Honda or Toyota. Both great cars. Both well made. Both will last a long time. Which is best for you?

While we "argue" about this, why not talk about the Desert Eagle in 50 cal? Its bullet is bound to be big and hard hitting! But who would want to carry that beast. So pratical limits and personal preference MUST come into play. If I can't hit something with a 45 cal because I am not accurate with it, then 8 45s downrange that strike nothing are pretty worthless. I am not trying to restate the shot placement argument as much as I am saying that each person has to take into account what fits them best, what they can carry comfortably, and what they can be accurate with. That will actually narrow things down for most people.

If I buy in to the argument about a 45 (1911 or otherwise), but the gun is bulky enough that I hate carrying it so there are times that I don't, then what is the point. If there is a gun, regardless of caliber, that I am comfortable with, accurate with, and have no problem carrying in my situations (work, etc), then that is what I should go with. The minute I leave it at home because it is bulky or uncomfortable or just a pain, the BG wins and I lose. Period.

The logical follow up to this, for me, would have to be practice. Most states require you get a learners permit and practice driving before you actually get your full blown drivers license. Having/carrying a gun should not be different. If you plan to use it, you had better be sure that you are very comfortable with it and how it reacts (and how you react) in many different situations.

So, for me, praticalilty and practice are what I look at first. If I then decide to go 9mm, I try to address other issues with the load (+P or +P+). When I first starting shooting, I started with a SIG P226. I shoot in IDPA matches quite frequently and thought that was a good gun. And it is. But I shot a 1911 and found that I was more accurate with it, so I started using it. It had nothing to do with the caliber. I was just more accurate. I am now moving to a Steyr M9, mainly because I can't seem to stick with one gun :confused:, but also because the ammo is cheaper. This is not really part of this discussion, but I wanted to let you know why I started shooting the 1911.

Finally, we talk about people getting hit in the chest and continuing to attack. I would love to know what the percentage of this happening is, in relation to all defensive gun shootings. I would be that it would be very small.

JMO...........


"...things...don't react well to bullets..."
(Sean Connery in "The Hunt for Red October")

[BevrFevr]

(in America) the lowly .22lr.

I love reading these mine is bigger than yours and therefore it is better stuff.

Of course I know that anything bigger than a 9mm is MAGIC.

What I want to know is who is talking to your women while you guys run all these scenarios though your heads? :confused:

-bevr