What's So Great About The HK P7M8?


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Tecolote
April 21, 2005, 01:52 AM
What makes the HK P7M8 worth $1200? I'm thinking about maybe getting one but I need to justify spending that kind of money on a production piece. Pics appreciated.

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Zak Smith
April 21, 2005, 02:36 AM
Please search the archives. It's been discussed thoroughly.

lunde
April 21, 2005, 02:51 AM
Pics? Here's my hard-chromed "KF" (1995) one, followed by my 25th Anniverary "AE" (2004) one::

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p7m8-left-full-1.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p7m8-jubilee-print.jpg

I put 150 rounds or so through the former this afternoon. Flawless and accurate.

Trebor
April 21, 2005, 08:02 AM
Two things:

1. Try one before you buy one. The P7 isn't for everybody. Trust me on this.

2. You can do better than $1,200 if you go used. I went through four P7M8's in about 3 years. I paid between $750 and $850 for three of them. One had some significant finish wear near the muzzle, but the other two were pretty clean. The most I paid was $1,000 for a recent production gun that came with a holster and three mags. Shop around.

Do a search here. I've posted on several P7 threads so just search under my member name if nothing else. Like I said, they aren't for everbody. (I decided they weren't for me, for instance)

jobu07
April 21, 2005, 08:15 AM
I agree with your opinion that it's a highly over priced gun. At least to me. But i've shot one and well, it is an accurate reliable pistol. Better put, it was hard to miss with that gun.
It's a little wierd with the squeeze cocking motion. But eh, it's a unique gun. And that's why the guy who let me shoot his bought it.

Lone_Gunman
April 21, 2005, 09:05 AM
Just because it is expensive, doesn't mean it is overpriced.

HKGuns
April 21, 2005, 10:08 AM
One of the best ever produced.

http://www.pbase.com/shoudek/image/40728273.jpg

Pilot
April 21, 2005, 10:34 AM
You don't have to spend $1,200 for a P7. The recent German, trade-in, BMI imports can still be had in the $700 range. I have one and use it as a CCW gun. I also have a used LNIB P7M8 that I bought for $800. I don't think it was ever shot before me.

Sean Smith
April 21, 2005, 10:47 AM
For $1,200, the P7M8 is a joke.

For $800, it is a very nice pistol. Easy to conceal because of its flat shape, very accurate, and reliable if properly maintained & fed the right ammo.

P7 fans do tend to exaggerate its virtues, however.

Lone_Gunman
April 21, 2005, 12:17 PM
For $1,200, the P7M8 is a joke.


I don't know, I probably would go up to $1000 for a P7 now... HK is stopping production of the P7, and $1200 may look like a good deal in a couple of years.

ABBOBERG
April 21, 2005, 01:50 PM
I have read many reviews and raves about the P7M8, and I can see why people like them - the squeeze-cocking principle is unique and the trigger pull is very light. However, the gun is very heavy for its size and power and I think that a person would be perfectly happy with a competetive gun, such as a Sig p239 or a Kahr for less money. I own a new P7M8 and have benchmarked it to other 9mm pistols of similar size and barrel lengths. What I found is that this gun has some room for improvement, design-wise; but since it is a "dead" product, it is not likely that H&K will be making any improvements. I see the major design flaw being the way-oversized gas piston. The purpose of this piston is to delay the opening of the slide so that the primer will no blow out of the case (has nothing to do with case rupture). If this piston design were used with an ordinary barrel (and chamber), the slide would never open. So as a band-aid, H&K added grooves in the chamber to help fight the large piston. Unfortunately, these grooves bleed out about 8% more kinetic energy than other guns with similar barrel lengths. Some people say about these grooves help the case eject if the extractor breaks - that might be true, but I don't think that is what H&K engineers had in mind. Despite what some people say about gas delay guns losing 5% energy due to the gas bleed hole, it loses less than one-half a percent of the kinetic energy through through this hole because of the tight clearance between the gas piston and the gas cylinder. To make a short story long - I only bought this gun to reverse engineer it - I would not buy this gun other than for adding it to a gun collection.

Pilot
April 21, 2005, 05:31 PM
I see the major design flaw being the way-oversized gas piston. The purpose of this piston is to delay the opening of the slide so that the primer will no blow out of the case (has nothing to do with case rupture). If this piston design were used with an ordinary barrel (and chamber), the slide would never open. So as a band-aid, H&K added grooves in the chamber to help fight the large piston. Unfortunately, these grooves bleed out about 8% more kinetic energy than other guns with similar barrel lengths. Some people say about these grooves help the case eject if the extractor breaks - that might be true, but I don't think that is what H&K engineers had in mind. Despite what some people say about gas delay guns losing 5% energy due to the gas bleed hole, it loses less than one-half a percent of the kinetic energy through through this hole because of the tight clearance between the gas piston and the gas cylinder.

I have no ideas what you are trying to say here. Are you saying muzzle velocity suffers due to the gas piston and bleed hole design of the P7? If so, I've chronographed both my P7's and they've produced numbers similar to other 9MM's of similar barrel length. What's your point?

Also, I agree that the P7 is heavier than similar sized polymer or alloy pistols. So what? Its still easily carried and the weight absorbs more recoil making for easier follow-up shots and less muzzle flip. Its just a darn easy gun to shoot accurately. You can't have it all. You want a light gun? Suffer the consequences of more recoil and less accuracy.

Why would you want to reverse engineer it if its a flawed design as you say?

ABBOBERG
April 21, 2005, 05:42 PM
The gas piston and bleed hole are not the source of muzzle velocity attenuation - it is the grooved chamber. My point is that no one else uses the grooves because they are not necessary in all other guns. These grooves only hurt the performance of the P7, but they are essential in this gun because the gas piston is too large in diameter. In testing 21 brands of ammo, I find that the P7 loses about 6-8% of its energy comparing to a pistol with the same barrel length.

Coronach
April 21, 2005, 06:37 PM
...which, to my way of thinking, is not all that much.

JMO, but that seems a small price to pay for the other virtues of the gun.

Mike

Chipperman
April 21, 2005, 06:38 PM
"P7 fans do tend to exaggerate its virtues, however"


One could say the same for 1911's, Glocks, Sigs, etc.


The P7 is not for everyone, but it is the BEST for Me. That's the bottom line.
To me they are worth $1200, maybe not to you.

Zak Smith
April 21, 2005, 06:38 PM
How did you isolate the velocity loss from the port/piston vs. the velocity loss from the flutes?

Gixerman1000
April 21, 2005, 07:04 PM
Of all the CCW options I have, the P7 is the one on my belt :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Gixerman1000/P7M8.jpg


shoudek & lunde

Great pic's!

BlkHawk73
April 21, 2005, 07:19 PM
P7 fans do tend to exaggerate its virtues, however.


Just like any owner does to a gun they own.
Glock owners do it.
XD owners do it.
1911 owners do it.

We brag about the ones we own.

Do have to agree that the P7 series isn't a model for everyone. The manual of arms is unlike any other handgun. Pricey? depends. I have no problem paying for quality. Some sttle with a Hi-point and they're happy with it. Fine. They pay $200 and get the level of quality (fit, finish, engineering) that accompanies a $200 auto. I'll gladly pay the money for a higher quality firearm. You get what you pay for. Besides, if you haveto ask "why?", you wouldn't understand. Good idea to try first hand before dropping the money on one. While they do hold thier value, it would be a shame to drop the money and not like it.

Tom Servo
April 21, 2005, 07:30 PM
One could say the same for 1911's, Glocks, Sigs, etc.
Hey, now...careful there. Words can hurt ;)

Ordnance (http://www.ordnanceoutsellers.com/page8.htm) has some great refurbished and refinished PSPs for $900. I got one (http://sigforum.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/630106652) a couple of weeks ago, and it's almost pristine. No grind-marks or silly lawyerspeak engraved on the slide. Functions like a Swiss watch.

Since the announcement that HK is discontinuing them, you can bet that prices are only going to go up from here. It IS different than any other pistol you'll come across, so shoot one if you can to be sure you'll take to it. Even then, as long as you treat it well, it should more than hold its value. Me, I'm keepin' mine :)

gigmike
April 22, 2005, 12:46 AM
Do be sure to try one before you buy, that's great advice. I've had my P7M8 for about a week now. After the first 25 shots I thought I might be selling the gun, the grip felt so off from the 1911's I normally shoot. But after 200 rounds and keeping an open mind I love it. As said earlier it's extremely accurate, follow up shots are almost instantaneous, the trigger is light and predictable. If you do end up buying one feel confident that you can re-sell it for what you pay for it.

CougarRed
April 22, 2005, 03:28 AM
I bought a refurb Bavarian police P7 refinished in NP3. Love it. Unlike any gun I own. Everything else is Ford and Chevy - this thing's a Ferrari.

Some of the neat things about the P7:

1. Fixed barrel - most accurate pistol I own

2. 3.5 pound trigger pull - best trigger I own.

3. Gas recoil system - works better the more +p you go

4. Squeeze cocker - very safe. Can only fire when in the shooter's hand. Very fast reloads as the cocker also serves as the slide release. Plus, many a life has been saved when the bad guy got the gun but couldn't figure out how to use it.

5. Removable firing pin - great for leaving the gun in the house with guests or kids around.

I mean, that's 5 things off the top of my head that distinguish this gun from all the traditional double action (or DAO), locked breech/Browning style semiautos.

Plain and simple, there's nothing like it.

gvass
April 22, 2005, 09:03 AM
"I agree with your opinion that it's a highly over priced gun."

Bahhh!

You can FEEL the German supremacy ("├╝bermensch") in your on hands for that little money.

The M1911 clones are overrated and overpriced:-))

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