S&W581 and Glock 17 side-by-side

[Oleg Volk]

Recently, I decided to carry a SW581. Since I've not carried a revolver in a long time, I took it to the range. After several days of practice i decided that I am not likely to carry it after all, for several reasons.

First, the good sides:

4" L-frame balances naturally and points extremely well
It shoots to point of aim at about 10m with 125gr ammo
Recoil with Georgia Arms 125gr .357 mag loads is moderate
Trigger is smooth and even double action yields 1.5" group at 10m

Now for the problems:

I tried firing from behind a 50-gallon drum: sideblast from the cylinder reflected off the cover and into my face. Very unpleasant, potentially dangerous to someone not wearing glasses.

Several times, I got one shot and then the gun would stop functioning. The cylinder would advance but the hammer wouldn't rise and fall. Turned out that my glove material worked itself under the trigger near the pivot point (look at any S&W, Taurus or Colt revolver -- all examples I've seen have a considerable "trap" where the trigger meets the frame, once the trigger is pulled back). I had to ditch my glove to keep firing.

Reloading with push-type Safariland speedloaders is very fast but it required more manual dexterity than swapping magazines, mostly to align cartridges with the chambers. If gloves were ditched, cold hands made reloading difficult.

Sights are built into the frame: no-snag but also hard to see in low light.

Dropping the gun would quite possibly damage or disable it through cylinder misalignment.

By contrast, Glock 17 I fired immediately after the 581 functioned reliably and was 1)more accurate 2)much flatter 3)much lighter 4)could be shot with gloves on 4)carried 17+1, which required two speedloaders for the 581 and 5)was easier to reload. Both guns returned on target quickly.

Now, Glock is more likely to hang up with poor quality ammunition. It also requires a steadier platform for cycling. But it seemed like a winner by comparison. 9x19 isn't as potent as .357mag but 40SW or .357sig are closer and a G22 still carries 15 rounds.

Am I overlooking anything in favor of the 581, other than the pleasure of handling a solidly made wheelgun?

[Sven]

Can't go wrong with the Glock, stoked with 17+1 premium hollowpoints. ;)

[ChristopherG]

Oleg,
My L-frame is a 686+, but I don't imagine they handle all that differently; and I shoot a 17, too, so I'll share my observations on your comparison.

Basically, I agree.

It actually disheartens me a little that I don't find the 686 to be a more *practical* gun, because it is aesthetically very pleasing--much more so than my Glock--and (here, it is apparently different from your 581), it is hands-down more accurate (with, that is, 158 gr. bullets; did you try these? they make a big difference vs. 125 gr. in both my .38/.357s).

Nevertheless, and in spite of the 686's ability to comfortably spit out rounds that are more powerful than top-end 9mm's by a goodly margin, the 17 is the gun I'd go to if I wanted to carry a full-size gun (in the real world, I carry a Scandium J-frame). It's just so obviously a gun made for serious business. It is very controllable, accurate--enough--and has not burped once in somewhere between 2500 and 3000 rounds. And, 18 rounds. I mean, what more could you want?

You could want the beauty of a fine revolver, is what you could want, I guess, but we've gone over that. I've resigned myself to the notion that the 686 will never get carried except in field or wood, where it will look great and offer authoritative comfort. And, with the right .38 ammo, it's a great gun for new shooters. And, I still love to shoot it. But that cursed, practical Glock--you've just got to give it its due.

CG

PS--It's my understanding that this site is your baby, Oleg; if that's right, then thanks very much for taking up the TFL baton.

[Oleg Volk]

This site is mine only in the sense that America is mine: it takes all my friends and their help to make it what it is.

I had a 686+ till I gave it to runt. She carried it concealed once with her Taurus 617 as backup (they take the same speedloaders). For me, 4" 581 balanced better than 6" 686+. 581 has fixed sights and 158gr ammo hits right of point of aim, though not by much. 125gr is also slightly more accurate, though I'm comparing plinker FMJ with premium JHP here.

I expect to have dies for 38spl/357mag by tomorrow and finally get to load the first 200 125gr JHPs for the 581. As revolvers go, it is wonderful...as fighting guns go, I am not too impressed. It would work but less well than other available options.

Similarly, S&W10 and S&W64, though splendid guns, fall short of the effectiveness delivered by a Glock 26.

[Kahr carrier]

Glock 17, But the 581 is a great revolver .

[Brian Williams]

Oleg I love my 586 and 13 for ccw but have been going to my mod 60 more recently. I haven't carried my Glock 19 since I got my Mod 13.

[firestar]

I hope I don't anger too many revolver fans but I think the revolver has been out classed by the modern autos. If you want accuracy, power and 100% reliability, the revolver is still the way to go. If you want a slimer, lighter, and higher capacity gun, the autos are the way to go.

I would not carry a revolver in a duty situation unless I knew for a fact that I wouldn't need more than 6 rounds. I hate Glocks but if I had to get into a gun fight and my choice was either a Glock 19 or a 6 shot revolver, I would be an idiot to choose a gun that held only 1/3 the ammo. I know people are going to say shot placement is everything but for those of us that can't hit the target with every single round and never miss, the hi capacity gives us some extra comfort. We can waste a few shots and still not have to reload under a stressful situation. That being said, I have seen some people that can shoot a revolver well enough to make up for soe of the inherent shortcomings, I am not one of them however. I want to be able to shoot as much as possible without having to reload.

[Blueduck]

I'd never try to talk anybody out of a G-17 (or into a G-17 from a 581 for that matter) but hey since you asked ;) I recently sold my G-17 for a number of reasons, mostly personal that would not effect you, but here's a few points in the revolvers favor:

The Glock will go out of battery if it's an upclose and personal encounter and the muzzel ends up shoved against your opponet, 581 will fire fine in that position.

Impromptu carry: By that I mean knock on the door at 9:15 pm. I'm not comfortable sticking a Glock in my pocket or waistband without a proper holster, but am comfortable just dropping a revolver in my pocket or in waistband in small of back to go check something out. Lot better than digging arund for holster and belt or worse just thinking "Ohhh it's probably nothing" and going unarmed.

Limp Wristing: Might experience a jam with the 17 on the second shot if you get a poor grip due to a fast draw or are shooting with an injured arm. 581 will do fine in the same scenario.

Safety Flame suit on Yes I belive the Glock system is safe I've carried one, I like them; BUT it's hard to argue that the revolver is not a bit more forgiving of safety "slips" due to the longer heaver trigger pull, and nobody has ever dropped the mag on a 581 and forgot they had one left in the chamber ;)

Now as for sights, Glocks does give you a better picture than the 581 BUT try calling Glock and asking for a replacement front sight because your's fell off, then call S/W and tell them your 581's front sight fell off. See which service rep acts most surprised...

Capacity: G-17 wins hands down of course, but frankly I had issues with hi-caps. Never could figure out how many I needed, first it was one for the gun, then one for the gun and one for the belt, then it was "Well I need a spare, just in case one breaks...." Long story short it PO'd me over time that I had $400 worth of mags for a $390 gun...


Capacity (part II): No disrespect to firestar but in civillian encounters you can't afford to "waste a few shots" whether your gun holds 5 shots or 36. Your right to defend yourself ends at killing an uninvolved party watching TV at home 6 blocks down the street. Building construction is poor nowdays with many buildings that look like "stone" actually being made of stuff barely tougher than paper machette. It's hard to judge what a safe backstop would be even while calm and collected, much less under stress. Taking this into account and realizing your responsible for every single bullet that leaves your gun, 17+5 mags look like less an advantage.


One of the biggest factors to me though was off body carry or more importantly my Glocks "house gun" role. Can quickly reach into the nightstand, glove box, briefcase etc.. and grab my revolver ready to shoot-bang. I'd no more reach into something like that and try to quickly grab my loaded unholstered G-17 than I would a rattlsnake. Leaving the glock in a holster or chamber empty leads to the same result. You need two hands to get it to fire and it's going to take lots more time to get it into action.

Like I said I love the G-17, but the revolver does have some advantages as well as disadvantages. My 2 1/2" and 4" 19's now serve my home and carry protection needs...

[10-Ring]

I like the simplicity of the revolver, but having the emotional crutch of so many rounds at your disposal from th semi auto is comforting too. I usually go through several of my carry rounds before a guns makes it into my carry rotation. Once that's been accomplished, I wouldn't have any worries w/ either a S&W or the GLock.

[Oleg Volk]

In practice, we fired a variety of pistols at a cardboard target which was sited about twenty steps away behind a 4" thick tree. Since cardboard blended with the background and the tree's light grey stood out visually, most of the shots hit the trunk. Almost none penetrated, and several hit too high.

I've also had an embarrassing experience of shooting (slow) moving game during which it took all of the ammunition I carried to achieve one hit at moderate (15 step) range.

Conclusion: extra ammunition is not a psychological crutch, it is a useful component of a defensive system. By preference, I'd carry more than an extra magazine, but it proves difficult in practice. A 17rd magazine is more useful than a 6rd spare, for my taste. Once cover, reduced visibility, reduced personal performance and movement are factored in, having only a few rounds available feels very insufficient. I try not to carry fewer than 13 and 35 by choice. If I figure out better double pouches than the unbalanced kind I tried before, than 2 17rd extras would be reasonable.

Same applied to shotguns. Nothing like using a 20ga on a target behind a sapling and finding out that shot scattered to much and slugs failed to penetrate what appeared to be light cover at less than 10m.

[Ian11]

I've tried several times to like revolvers. I tried forcing myself to like revolvers. I've bought the S&W 586, 686, S&W 640, and Ruger SP-101 in the last 10 years. But it didn't matter I just simply shot autos WAY better than any revolvers. If I wasn't able to shoot guns for a long time I could get back to speed with autos very quickly. But not with revolvers. Naturally, I had to face reality and trade them in for comparable sized Glocks and SIGs.

[Tamara]

I'll be happy to take that 4" 581 off your hands. Want a LNIB 4" 624 in exchange? :D

[Frenchy]

I think Oleg's points are very sound, so it comes down to the "comfort factor".
I carry a 686 snubby both on duty and off. It serves as my truck gun, house gun...Everything gun.
I practice with it constantly, to the point that it's become an extension of my arm. Once you develop a "trust' in your weapon, and yourself to use it, there is no other choice.

[Baba Louie]

Both are excellant firearms based on the technology of their times and native background... American early 20th century vs. European late 20th century. Police vs. Military needs are two different things. American shooters have the best of both worlds to a degree.

Relative to the 581's front sight and poor low light signature... consider some form of tritium front sight, Ashley big dot... its not a target type pistol anyway with the rear sight being a trough. I've got a 586 and have been looking for a 581 ever since S&W decided to drop it and a 4" barrel is perfect.

Relative to the hot gasses, whats the cylinder/barrel gap set at? I've watched PPC shooters who actually place their other hand on the barrel for steady and I think that surely their wrist must smart a bit upon discharge.

In the old days :D the argument was that semi's were prone to jam when you really needed them not to. And blueducks right in the regards that up close and touching muzzle to target while stressed will cause some difficulty with one, not the other.

Pretty much ballistically isn't the 9mm about the same as a .38 special? The .357 opens things up in the energy displacement department, but a .36" hole is a .36" hole for the most part. Depends on speed and bullet design from that point, providing you do the placement part of the equation.

Overlooking something? Nah. Just that they don't make the 581 anymore so its getting scarce as hen's teeth and if you ever want to get rid of it and Tamara's offer doesn't do it for ya, let me know. :D

Quite the dilemna... Beauty and the Beast.

Adios

[Will Fennell]

Oleg,
Darwin was right, and now man has progressed....... carry the autopistol!



;)

[twoblink]

Oleg, there is one thing that you are missing with the revolver to semi comparison, actually a few things.

First, Fail to fires. In a Semi, to "clean up" one of these is difficult in a stressful situation. Worse yet is if you have a double feed. These are horrible and happen when the gun is slightly out of battery, and you rack again, but you get two stuck in there... You have to eject the magazine etc...

Second, shooting for the pocket. This probably won't happen, but if it needs to, a revolver has a great chance of shooting out of the pocket, while the semi doesn't.

More is good; but more doesn't substitute better training. I know a lot of cops who say (very stupid things) like that's why I carry hi-caps, so I can keep shooting...(instead of aiming)

While reactive shooting is one thing, shooting without aiming because you think you have a lot of bullets is not a good replacement.

I like revolvers for HomeD, and wouldn't feel under-armed with 5-6 shots of 357Mag. I'll make them count. That's what training is for.

Better to be well trained with 5 rounds of 357, then undertrained with 35 rounds out of a glock..

[triggertime]

Twoblink, don't forget about the disadvantages of the revolver:

1) If a primer backs out of a cartridge casing during recoil, the revolver will tie up and become disabled.

2) If the chambers are dirty and a fired casing backs out of the cylinder during recoil
and sticks in the rearward position, the revolver will tie up and become disabled.

3) If a cartridge casing slips underneath the extractor star during a speed reload or a tactical reload, the revolver is instantly disabled until the malfunction is cleared. (which is not that easy)

4) If the ejector rod is bent, the cylinder will not close and the revolver becomes disabled.

By way of contrast, the semi-auto is easily cleared and back in the fight after performing the appropriate malfunction clearance drill. Even 'position 3' malfunctions aka 'double feeds' are easily cleared. The revolver on the otherhand would require gunsmithing.

For these reasons, including the limited capacity of the revolver, the semi-auto is more practical. The only disadvantage to a semi-auto is its dependence on a detachable magazine. If the magazine is lost or broken, then the semi-auto is disabled until the magazine is either found or replaced. But of course, thats why we carry spares. :neener:

[VaughnT]

Well, I've carried a 4" 686 often enough and I don't feel uncomfortable in the least. Reloading them is as fast as you care to practice; remember that Miculek was able to fire six, reload, and fire six more into the kill zone....in less than three seconds. In a realife attack/repel, you probably won't need to shoot that much. At realife conflict distances, under 10', I am capable of putting six rounds into the torso in under three seconds, and I doubt a reload would be necessary after that. I really should practice my reloading more often that I do. I don't wear gloves that much, but I wonder how much of your problem is the result of your choice of glove or your lack of practice shooting with gloves on. Give it another month or so and you might not have any problems.

On another matter-->


I've also had an embarrassing experience of shooting (slow) moving game during which it took all of the ammunition I carried to achieve one hit at moderate (15 step) range.

Conclusion: extra ammunition is not a psychological crutch, it is a useful component of a defensive system. By preference, I'd carry more than an extra magazine, but it proves difficult in practice. A 17rd magazine is more useful than a 6rd spare, for my taste. Once cover, reduced visibility, reduced personal performance and movement are factored in, having only a few rounds available feels very insufficient. I try not to carry fewer than 13 and 35 by choice. If I figure out better double pouches than the unbalanced kind I tried before, than 2 17rd extras would be reasonable.

This tells me that you need more practice, not more bullets. What type of weapon were you using? What type of animal were you hunting? Where did your lucky bullet finally strike?

Assuming that your step is approximately 36", you're looking at a shot that is beyond the safe range of a pistol. Forty-five feet, give or take! Come on, man. And you wonder why you couldn't hit the animal?



It just burns me up to hear stories like that!!!

[mrstang01]

Uh, VaughnT, the record Miculek set was using a 625 with moon clips, a little faster than a standard speed loader used for a 686.

Michael

[DeltaElite]

I wish I had a 581. :D

[Oleg Volk]

VaughnT

Animal in question was a small turkey at 15-20m, shot iwth a Kahr P9. I held just under it till I saw bullet impacts on leaves and realized that I should have held center. The birds was walking on a tangent to me, and I also held a little ahead of it.

Once I stopped second-guessing the point of aim and held center for elevation and leading edge for windage, got a neck hit. Lessons:

1. know POI at extended ranges
2. don't play mind games with yourself: holdover/under with pistols or rifle (M48 Mauser) is likely to introduce greater error than difference between POA and POI
3. carry a lot more ammo than you think you need
4. carry a decent backup: just because I have to transition to a mousegun, my engagement distance won't change
5. if extra ammo isn't on you, at least have it in the car or in the house

[boing]

...you're looking at a shot that is beyond the safe range of a pistol. Forty-five feet, give or take!

:confused:

Exactly what is the maximum "safe" range for a pistol?

[VaughnT]

mrstang01, my point stands regardless of what Miculek was using. The fact is that he practiced regularly, far more than any of us would do, and he got good because of it. Speedloaders might never be as fast as moonclips, but they are plenty fast if you practice the motions.

boing, a poor choice of words on my part. I guess what I should have said was, "ethical".

Oleg, you have done us all a great service by working to make this forum a possibility and I am certainly in your debt. However, I feel that your choice of weapon was unethical. The great thing about this country is that we are all free to choose what is ethical or unethical in accordance with our beliefs. I would never chance a bowshot over thirty yards, and that would have to be with a powerful bow. Similarly, I would never have thought that I was properly equipped to give a quick demise to a turkey armed as you were.

I do appreciate your willingness to share your experiences with us.

[chieftain]

Triggertime, you stated:

QUOTE
============================================
1) If a primer backs out of a cartridge casing during recoil, the revolver will tie up and become disabled.

2) If the chambers are dirty and a fired casing backs out of the cylinder during recoil
and sticks in the rearward position, the revolver will tie up and become disabled.

3) If a cartridge casing slips underneath the extractor star during a speed reload or a tactical reload, the revolver is instantly disabled until the malfunction is cleared. (which is not that easy)

4) If the ejector rod is bent, the cylinder will not close and the revolver becomes disabled.

By way of contrast, the semi-auto is easily cleared and back in the fight after performing the appropriate malfunction clearance drill. Even 'position 3' malfunctions aka 'double feeds' are easily cleared. The revolver on the otherhand would require gunsmithing.

For these reasons, including the limited capacity of the revolver, the semi-auto is more practical. The only disadvantage to a semi-auto is its dependence on a detachable magazine. If the magazine is lost or broken, then the semi-auto is disabled until the magazine is either found or replaced. But of course, thats why we carry spares.
==============================================
UNQUOTE

I carried a revolver in combat. I never had a primer never backed out on me. I carried a Victory S&W 38spl. because I didn't trust the 1911 in Viet Nam.

My revolver was always clean.

The other two problems would only happen after I had emptied the cylinder.

The reason I carry a SIG instead of a Glock is the magazines. Glock magazines in the 17, for me, proved not reliable. I find the SIG's marginally more reliable overall than any other quality semi auto.

Prior to finding the SIG's I carried a Smith Model 66 3" with nightsights.

I now carry a SIG 228 with 14 Corbons backed up with 226 Mag with additional 15 rounds and a BUG a Smith 638 with Winchester 158 LSWCHP +P,

They sort of compliment each other. I am down to ony 18 hand guns, 6 SIGS 3 Glocks, 5 Smiths, 2 Kahrs, 2 Rugers, right now.

But my 228 and 638 cover almost all Self defense situations. All with proper holsters.

Good luck

Fred

Godspeed to all our troops in Harmsway

God, Country, and Corps, things you can believe in

[Tamara]

All those malfs are theoretically possible with a revolver, yes.

I can't remember off-hand when the last time one of those happened to me, though. (Was it a round under the extractor star? Two years ago? Three? I dunno, I've slept since then...) I can remember my last FTF with a quality semiauto, though, as I have slept a lot fewer times since it happened. ;)

[Oleg Volk]

VaughnT,

Point taken about the ethics. I *thought* I was a much better shot than I really was.

[boing]

Thanks for the clarification, VaughnT.

Whether talking safety or ethics, the key is knowing your abilities, and accepting your limitations.

Oleg- were there any issues regarding, um...hunting licenses...in shooting that bird? Honest question, as I know little of hunting regs.

[triggertime]

Pardon me for displaying impious irreverence to your 'fat in the middle' guns. :p For the record, I wasn't posting on the theoretical. What I offered was deduced from personal experience. In otherwords, I wasn't pontificating from the armchair.

While your experiences with revolvers may not mirror mine, the axiom of practical wisdom is that revolvers can and do malfunction. Deal with with. :neener:

[Tamara]

Oh, indeed they can, and you left out "Tied up from bent moonclips (where applicable)" and "unburned powder under ejector star" to the list.

I just think these things don't happen as often as auto malfs. :)

[chieftain]

Tamara,

What you stated is true:

Oh, indeed they can, and you left out "Tied up from bent moonclips (where applicable)" and "unburned powder under ejector star" to the list.

but as you go on to say not often. Good maintenance will keep good quality revolvers working.

I never used moonclips in my fighting revolvers. And once again the powder under the ejector star will only jam you up after you have fired several cylinders of ammo.

I shot a S&W 14 6" in NRA bullseye for about 12 years. I spent most of my time between strings doing a "quick" clean and resting.

Never jammed and only once did I have a FTF related to a bad round. Pulled the trigger again and the gun went bang!

Unlike my auto firing friends. They often spent between strings getting their guns working.

Revolvers failing are something like winning the lottery. Possible, but not very probable.

Carried one for two tours with the 3rd Marine Division in Viet Nam. Never jammed or FTF. Only used 130gr FMJ I swiped from the wing pogues.

Good luck,

Fred

Godspeed for our troops in Harmsway.

God, Country and Corps, things you can believe in

[Nightcrawler]

Cheftain, if I may ask, what kind of revolver did you carry in Vietnam?

You have my utmost respect too, sir. My father spent a year in country. It's personal for me.

[chieftain]

Victory model S&W has a lanyard swivel on the grip base.

I still have my fathers Victory model too.

It is basicly a model 10 made with the cheap war time parkarized finish. world war two.

Mine and my fathers both shot very well. Great trigger. But they did not have the later S&W transfer bar.

I also used to shoot tracers out of mine in Nam for grins and giggles.

Fred

Godspeed for our Troops in Harmsway

God, Country and Corps, things you can believe in

[Oleg Volk]

Boing, no issue there. Just happened to come across the bird when I wasn't actively hunting, so had only standard sidearm.