3 minutes of terror and now I feel really dumb

[Partisan Ranger]

Today I was talking to my wife at 1 pm in our bedroom as she was getting up (she works nights). Heard the door open downstairs. We have a 9 year-old and they get out early every few weeks on Fridays. Didn't think it was this week but I called out his name, not knowing who else it could be.

I heard a man mumble and groan and shuffle around downstairs. I immediately shut our BR door, locked it, and got out my shotgun, also the Glock from my GunVault safe. Got my wife to call 911. Racked the shotgun and yelled down the steps for the guy to get out now. No response.

I still heard him down there shuffling around. My wife was on the phone with the cops and I talked to them, too. I told them to get here NOW because I was going to blow away whoever it was if he came upstairs.

I then decided to open the window so my wife could get out on the roof if necessary to escape. Then the cop pulled up. Then I saw my parents down on the driveway looking up at me with wonder.

Turns out, my parents were coming today to keep our kids while we go on a cruise. But they came about 3 hours early, and my father did not respond when I yelled out. I guess he didn't hear me, or thought I was talking on the phone. He was just bringing stuff in and going to the restroom! It never occurred to me that it could be them. I thought it was some drunken lunatic down there! My dad does tend me make odd noises like that, just joking around. It never occurred to me that it was him until after the fact. In the heat of the moment, I totally forgot.

Now I feel like an idiot. But I have read enough about hot break-ins and people being tortured and murdered in their homes, that is what I thought was happening.

Lessons I learned:
1. Keep doors locked day and night.
2. Tell anyone who is going to come into the house to identify themselves when they enter.
3. I always thought that I would be ready and able to shoot an intruder if threatened, but I can tell you I was dead wrong. I so did not want to do it, and I was telling 911 to get their asses here NOW or I was probably going to have to open fire.
4. I was probably too close to opening fire. I need to make darned sure that the person is an intruder for sure, and not shoot unless he is breaking the bedroom door down.
5. In the panic of the moment, I forgot my code to the Gunvault safe. Got it the 2nd time, but I need to practice it.
6. If you keep your home defense guns unloaded, you are insane.
7. I need to practice shooting and home defense. It didn't occur to me until it was over that I never turned off the safety on the shotgun. I guess this would support the argument to not have a safety at all, like on the Glock, because in the heat of the moment, it's quite easy, for a layman anyway, to forget about it.
8. I have seen the threads here about hand gun v. shotgun for home defense. I wasn't sure which side I was on, but I leaned towards the handgun for mobility. But I found in that moment that the shotgun was a lot more reassuring to me!

What a freaky experience that was!

[cliffy109]

Wow. Good lessons learned and thankfully, no harm came during the lesson. I'll bet your folks never come in unannounced again.

[spacemanspiff]

one thing i have not been able to comprehend is when family members think they can just walk right into your home. my dear old mother does this all the time to her sisters, nieces, nephews, and her own kids.
then again, they leave their doors unlocked so i guess they are asking for it, huh?

[Clean97GTI]

How people can leave their doors unlocked is an utter mystery to me.

My mother recently moved to AZ and does this...and she is a cops daughter!
The worst part...her father recently went to live with her and does the same thing! :cuss:
Neither of them would ever do this while living in Las Vegas just a year ago.

She says there is no crime there and she feels safe.

I asked her where she keeps her gun. "in the nightstand."
Is it locked up? "no"
What prevents someone from going in and grabbing it? "*silence*"
"but there is no crime here!"

Yet mom...yet! Can you predict how long it will stay like that?

she still won't lock the door. :fire:

[Doug Add]

Thankfully you did not shoot your father! I had a similar experience from the other end. My wife's parents came to town for the birth of our son. They went back to our house for some sleep shortly after he was born at 2:10 am. I stayed to get my wife settled in a room, then went home.

I arrived at our house shortly after 6:00 am, and at this time of year that was still pre-dawn. With other cars in our driveway (my wife's sister was there as well) I had to park in the yard beside the house. Consequently, my car was not visible from the bedroom where my in-laws slept.

I came in the front door, sat my things down on a table and was moving toward the kitchen when I heard my father-in-law call my name from the top of the stairs. He had heard someone enter, saw no car, and thought it was a burglary.

When I stepped to the bottom of the stairs to answer him, he had his Ruger .357 trained on me. I am thankful he had the sense to identify the target before shooting.

How ironic (and tragic) would it have been to be killed in my own house by my father-in-law on the day my son was born?

[GRB]

The initial post in this thread is, in my opinion, a very scary one. While I agree that the scenario that unfolded was scary, I think the scariest part of that post is the lessons learned section. Sure I can agree with some of the lessons learned but, I also see some very scary stuff in some of the other lessons with which I strongly disagree. Allow me to comment but, please realize: I am not trying to embarrass you with what I am about to say, nor am I trying to get you mad at me. I will admit there is a chance you will feel both ways because I will be very blunt and to the point yet, I am hopeful you will read what I am about to write with a cool level head and then critique yourself against what I have written. It may save a life, yours or a loved one. It also may help you defend yourself or loved ones in the future and; it is my sincere intent to help rather than hinder you. I realize others may disagree with me on some of my points, maybe all, but I doubt that you or others will disagree with what you will, or should be able to, see as my bottom line.

Keep doors locked day and night. It is probably a good idea to leave your doors locked, although I will admit I do not always do so. Probably stupid of me sometimes to leave them unlocked, other times just forgetful. Good practice to be in though,

Tell anyone who is going to come into the house to identify themselves when they enter. Maybe a good idea but not foolproof and; if you depend upon such it could be tragic. Do you think that every time your wife or kids enter the house they will announce themselves in a loud voice. They may be pretty sure you are not home when they get there and therefore would feel stupid to do so in an assumed empty house. I pity you the day one does so, and you shoot one of them because they decided to walk upstairs. No that is not right, I do not know if I would pity you but; I would be saddened and maybe disgusted by your actions. If I was on the jury, and heard you testify you acted like that then killed your own child or parent - man it would be tough but I would probably vote to convict for negligent homicide. Sorry if that seems harsh but this is some serious stuff concerning life and death and your family or other possible innocents.

I always thought that I would be ready and able to shoot an intruder if threatened, but I can tell you I was dead wrong. I so did not want to do it, and I was telling 911 to get their ***** here NOW or I was probably going to have to open fire. This one is an understandable thing. Most people are not wired to do serious bodily harm to others, and want to let someone else do it for them. Of course there is a good chance that if you felt threatened enough you would have fired. Maybe too you would have fired because of panic when there was no real threat - not good. So good to call the police - more on this in a bit.

I was probably too close to opening fire. I need to make darned sure that the person is an intruder for sure, and not shoot unless he is breaking the bedroom door down. Yes there is a good lesson here but, a bad one too or so I think. The good one is, you do need to identify the threat as a real one, and make sure it qualifies as a shoot situation (depending on state or local laws) before you shoot. Heck you first have to make sure it is an intruder. The bad thing about what you said, as I see it anyhow, is that you plan to make this assessment with the bedroom door closed as far as I can tell. Not good, because how can you tell it is a threat. what if the same thing happened, but this time your father came upstairs still mumbling - maybe because he was choking on something and in a panic himself. Maybe you mom just passed away in your driveway and he was panic/grief stricken and he started to pound on your bedroom door.

Now back to calling 911. Plenty of people do so when they feel threatened. Yes it is good to call 911 if you can when you are threatened but, it can be very bad to cry wolf. If you cannot safely make certain of the threat, then go ahead and call 911, but if you are not making certain of a threat because you are in a panic attack of some sort - well you need to work on that one. You calling 911 could have resulted in a police officer being killed while responding or in there being one less police officer to respond to a real serious threat somewhere else.

In the panic of the moment, I forgot my code to the Gunvault safe. Got it the 2nd time, but I need to practice it. AND I need to practice shooting and home defense. You should be doing nothing in the panic of the moment. You are ill prepared to respond properly to a situation like this if it causes you to panic. Yes, I realize anyone can panic but, to me you seem to have been ill prepared for such an event. If you had a number of well developed plans (for various situations) then it would have been less likely for you to panic. Remember that planning does not mean planning for how a bad guy acts or reacts, but for how you will ACT in any threatening situation. You can never know how any scenario will unfold, but with a lot of training you can be prepared to improvise without panic. I am not saying you should not be scared but panic is not acceptable -you need to control you. To do this you can get some training in self defense/home defense tactics. Practicing the combination to a safe is a good thing but, if you are panic stricken when you pull out a loaded gun bad things are bound to happen. You need to be in mental and physical control of yourself before you can handle the situation.

It didn't occur to me until it was over that I never turned off the safety on the shotgun. I guess this would support the argument to not have a safety at all, like on the Glock, because in the heat of the moment, it's quite easy, for a layman anyway, to forget about it. This is bad logic as I see it, very bad logic. What you seemingly are saying is essentially that because you had a poor panic ridden response and, because you forgot to do something you should have done, then it would support an argument that the thing you forgot to operate properly is not a good thing. Safeties are a good thing (I am not saying foolproof but good). Again what you need to do is train and practice.

By the way, your calling yourself a layman is really not a good thing - no let me correct that - you being a layman as you call it is not good. By saying such you seem to be saying that you are not one who is properly trained in how to respond to such a situation and/or you do not know how to properly use firearms as would someone else. I agree with that. If that is what you mean or not, it is certainly how I would interpret it and it is likely that courts, police, antis would do likewise. Again you need to get training. and then practice. You are a gun owner, a person who believes in self and home defense and obviously in defense of loved ones - so be responsible in those regards. Right now, it seems to me that you are not ready to do these things anywhere as well as you should be able. This does not make you a layman unless by it you mean someone who is ill prepared. I base my finding on how you reacted.

But I have read enough about hot break-ins and people being tortured and murdered in their homes, that is what I thought was happening. This in part caused your panic and your reactions; you depending too much upon fearful things you have read about instead of you depending upon good tactical training that would have taught you how to act. Reacting, by the way, is what you did. You reacted for the most part instead of taking action to take control. You let the situation, as you perceived it, control just about everything you did including the panic that led to you forgetting to properly ready your shotgun had it been a real threat. You not only reacted to the possible threat, you also reacted inappropriately to something that should have helped you if it really had been a threat but, which would not have helped much because you felt a false sense of security.But I found in that moment that the shotgun was a lot more reassuring to me! Reassuring to you means nothing when you fail to use the firearm properly. Plenty of people have been killed or wounded even though they were reassured by the fact they were holding a firearm at a time when they needed one. Sometimes just because the bad guy gets the better of them, other times because they did or forgot to do something that helped lead to their own demise.

If you keep your home defense guns unloaded, you are insane. This is not true. In your case, and I mean this with all due respect, you quite possibly would be better off to just lock that bedroom door and call the police with no guns around - but that can be remedied with some home defense and firearms training/practice. If you insist on having a gun in the bedroom, you could keep it unloaded - a combat load is pretty fast - even with a fully empty gun. The extra second it takes you to load the gun may have you thinking : 'oh my gosh my finger is on the trigger, oh my goodness I am pointing the darned thing right at my foot or my wife, oh man I forgot to check to see if it was my son'; or something else good like ok stay in control, load fast but safe'. Many may say this extra time may get you killed. Sure it may - so if you do not want to take extra time then get that training and practice. By the way was that shotgun locked up (I was not clear on this) or do you leave it accessible with ammo in the magazine with a young child in the house.

In summary: You went into a panic and could have caused yourself or an innocent person harm because of that panic. You assumed there was an intruder, you did not determine if there was a threat, you panicked, you secured yourself in your bedroom, you operated the slide to load your shotgun but forgot to take off the safety - and I wonder where was that trigger finger in your panic. You also got out the Glock, what did you do with it, was it in hand or in a holster at that point, did you give it to your wife (does she shoot). Then you opened the bedroom window destroying part of your security because bad guys often come in groups and had one been on the lawn where your parents were standing - well instead of gawking maybe he would be shooting; you also were prepared to put your wife quite possibly more in harms way trying to have her climb to the roof. Again this was all done in a panic. You also jeopardized your parents but, it could have just as easily been your child or your child and some friends. Yes I know they could have and maybe should have identified themselves but they did not - so it was and will be wise of you to do what you need to do in such a situation and not depend on others to do what you think they should do. You are not responsible for the actions of the others involved. You are though quite responsible for any actions you take.

Sure you made some glaring mistakes but, I don’t believe you to be an idiot. An idiot would not post those mistakes here in hopes of learning how to do things better in the future. We all make tactical mistakes no matter how well trained so, don't feel like an idiot too much. Then again, do not allow yourself to become complacent about this incident either! We can minimize the risk to us and to other innocents and, we can maximize our effective use of tactics and firearms quite readily (I do not want to say easily because it takes a lot of work). You can really learn a lot from your experience especially if it motivates you to take responsible action to seek out some professional training, then to practice what you have learned. You seem like you are ready, willing and able to learn so, get to it. If you have any doubt that this is what you need to do, think of the incident again, then think of your loved ones! Best of luck to you. Shoot safely. Most of all, keep the family safe.

Sorry this was so long but, I don't think I could have given a Reader's Digest condensed version.

Best regards,
Glenn B

[Texian Pistolero]

As Billy Bob Shakespeare put it:

"All's well that ends well!"

Fact is, most of our beloved kinsmen/kinswomen are walking/talking gator bait,

and always WILL be!

All we can do is to train around it.

[MikeIsaj]

I think your actions were entirely apropriate in the situation you were presented with. We can all make better judgments after the fact when ALL the facts are known. You were given a situation that a reasonable person would have interpreted just as you did.

Calling the police in that situation was appropriate. It is called a "good intent" call. I have been on both sides of those calls and understand how things can differ from what they appear to be.

I actually called 911 twice for what turned out to be my dogs tail hitting the wall. When it woke us up in the dark it sounded like someone kicking the wall, as if they were trying to get in a window. We all (my wife, I and the six officers who responded from two townships) had a good laugh over that one.

Of course you learned some lessons. Experience is a great teacher. Now go put those lessons to use so if there is a next time you canrespond better.

No one got hurt, that's a good job.

[GRB]

I think your actions were entirely apropriate in the situation you were presented with. We can all make better judgments after the fact when ALL the facts are known. You were given a situation that a reasonable person would have interpreted just as you did.An honest question hoping for an honest answer: Why would you encourage a panic stricken person to believe that panic was the proper way to handle a situation? I think that is exactly what you just did. There was little reason behind what was done except for panic; I thought that was evidently clear from the words of the thread starter but obviously you do not see that. Are you saying that a reasonable person should not attend home defense and firearms training classes but rather just buy a firearm or two, have no plan of action set up for a SHTF scenario, not even a plan to check to actually assess the situation and, then simply react to fear whether or not the fear is justified?

Better judgement can certainly take place before something like this happens - or before the fact as you say - by people becoming responsible firearms owners, in part through proper training. We can all do that too. Which do you think is preferable?

Just because no one was hurt, probably mainly due to the dumb luck of dad not climbing the stairs and knocking on the bedroom door, does not make it a good job as I see it. Tragedy, I think, was averted mainly because of luck in this instance, just imagine had it been the child home from school with some really important great news to tell mom and dad. Imagine the child running up the stairs with wreckless abandon and pounding on the door so excited over whatever news there was to tell. Imagine the level of panic there woud have been at the moment he/she started to pound on the bedroom door of mom and dad. Sure it is all conjecture, but it based on the reaction already initiated by a panic attack. That picture makes my stomach knot up, that is why I cannot call this a job well done.

All the best,
Glenn B

[coylh]

Well, at least the Safe Room works. Had you gone running and gunning through your house, your father might be in bad shape.

As for not hearing you, you should repeat your warning speech at yelling level.

Follow the rattlesnake's example: coil up, ready to strike, rattle, rattle, rattle. Try something like "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE NOW! THE COPS ARE COMING! I'LL SHOOT YOU IF YOU COME UPSTAIRS!" Repeat.

One of the wonderful things about a safe room is that it protects you from invaders, and invaders from you.

[ksnecktieman]

I myself see good reason there for "panic", as you use the term. It does not matter how much training you have, when the real deal hits you will have responses that no training can prepare you for. YES, training is good. I do not see that you did much wrong. No one was hurt (maybe your ego?). You prepared to defend you and your wife. You utilized her to call 911. You did not "Rambo" your way through the house.

I agree that home defense weapons should be loaded.
If your safe combination is "finicky", dial the numbers, and leave the door shut when you are home, so all you have to do is open the door?
The shotgun safety? You had no reason to move it from safe to fire. It should be on safe until you shoulder it to fire.

You just had a practice run for the real thing. You have identified some shortcomings, and you will be better prepared next time.

[MikeIsaj]

Glenn

I think you need to differentiate between how a LEO is going to react in a situation he's been in many times and how a proivate citizen reacts the first time.

Was he panicking? Absolutely! Is this a reasonable situation for the average person to panic? Yes. The fact is that in spite of panic, he did the right things. He stayed upstairs, he armed himself, he called 911, and told them where he was and that he was armed. He thought ahead and planned an escape route for his wife and him if needed. When police arived he surendered control of the situation to them. The result was that in spite of other people doing stupid things, no one got hurt. More important than that, he learned lessons and now realizes the need to do more thinking and planning in case there is a next time.

There has never been a situation that could not have been handled better. He gets this. IMHO we're beating a dead horse if we continue to try to impress upon him the need for improvement.

Again, GOOD JOB!

[bofe954]

Part of the written exam in my CCW course was to write down 5 reasons why someone could be in your home (without you letting them in) for legitimate reasons.

[snal]

My older brother and I were sharing an apartment that was within a building used as our dad's sheet metal shop. There was a "nothing" room between the apartment and the side entrance, which was our main access to the apartment.
We were leaving the apartment earlier in the evening...with friends...when there was an altercation between a local drunkard and one of our friends as we were leaving...my brother and I diffused the situation by informing our friend that stumbling drunkards in this area were common...and the drunkard eventually stumbled away.
Later that night...my brother and I returned to the appartment...and retired for the evening. A few hours later...we were awakened by someone throwing rocks at the bedroom windows....no glass breakage...we knew something was up...but couldn't see anything. I grabbed my shotgun, and loaded it, about that time we could hear someone trying to come into the "nothing room"...where we kept a newly aquired puppy.....it sounded as if they'd made it thru the exterior door...and the puppy was barking like crazy...I yelled that I had a gun...and that if they didn't leave immediately...I'd shoot thru the apartment door.
At this point we figured that the drunkard form earlier had probably gathered a friend and had decided to pay us an unfriendly visit.
All of the sudden...our puppy starts squeeling and yelping...we call the police (pre 911 days)...and they are on there way...but now the perps are pulling on the apartment doorknob...I ready my shotgun from behind a sofa, as my brother quickly kicks open the apartment door while lying on the floor......I was now pointing my shotgun...ready to fire...at our 2 friends who had decided it would be cool to scare us into thinking that the drunkard and friends had returned.
My brother and I had remained calm thru the whole ordeal...until we saw who the culprits were...I was extremely preturbed at our friends who almost made a killer out of me.
To this day...they still think it was funny....we never did.

[GRB]

Snal,

Nice to see you remained calm throughout and that you did not actually shoot through the door. Had you dome that you could likely have been found guilty of negiligent manslaughter. I guess you must have learned firearms safety someplace because you went with an important rule: Kwow your target and what is beyond.

Mike,

I see no difference in someone getting a gun and responsibly using it whether or not they are an LEO. The way an LEO or a private citizen acts in such a situation can all depend upon the training received. You assume an awful lot when you assume that any LEO has been in many such situations. Most never need to draw their guns in their whole career.

Yet, if you get the gun you should get the training just in case there is a bad situation. If you do not get good training ahead of time you are much more likely to use the gun irresponsibly when the SHTF (even your thinking the SHTF may be an irresponsible reaction to an innocent thing). If you plan to use a gun for self and home defense, then take courses in those subjects. It is exactly like a cop or other LEO going onto the street with a gun, they get training frst. How would a cop in a similar situation act if it was his FIRST time.

My point for the original poster was to emphasize that now is better than never to get that training and not to again depend upon thinking under panick and upon dumb luck. It was also my point to emphasize the importance of training to others who have not yet received it and who have not yet been involved in such a situation.

This is not the movies, if you are shot and killed because of lack of training, or if you shoot an innocent person because of the same, you and the other guy don't come back to life for the next feature film. Serious as that and simple as that.

All the best,
Glenn B

[rbernie]

Glenn - how many times have you been in a life-threatening situation, and did you (in retrospect) react perfectly each time? Chances are that the first (or second or even the third) time around you were probably a bit, ah, less polished than you'd like. That's human nature. Let's not get all preachy and try to make PR sound like a boob for being, well, human. It's awfully hard to train for EACH and EVERY possible self-defense scenario in which we could reasonably find ourselves.

I think that MikeIsaj hit the nail on the head - nobody got hurt, the reactions described were reasonably appropriate, and PR has some thinkin' to do. That works for me...

[snal]

I don't know how you guys may have reacted to my situation...but I thank God every day that I...#1...didn't fire "level" thru the door...#2 didn't fire when the door was kicked open. Why I did neither wasn't by formal training, by target recognition?...I would hope...but what if I'd met a firearm being leveled at me behind that door?...would my hesitation have been justified?...or foolish? In retrospect...the apartment floor was 2 steps higher than the entry room floor...I might have been better off (if it were indeed BGs behind the door) by shooting high thru the door...and then making a decision.
I think I would have been right by shooting (with intent to hit per aim) thru the door...since there was already an entry involved.
Thoughts?

[Arc-Lite]

Snal.... personally I do not see any good reason...to fire threw a perfectly good door, still providing a barrier between you...and the outside, and target I.D. is a must, you do not shoot shadows, or friends being jerks. !!! BUT...beating the snot out of friends being jerks.... is a thought.

[TallPine]

Part of the written exam in my CCW course was to write down 5 reasons why someone could be in your home (without you letting them in) for legitimate reasons.
Excuse me, but just what the heck does that have to do with carrying a concealed firearm in public? (outside of your home) :confused:

Also, a person's natural right to defend themselves does not rely on some level of training, however useful that training might be.

[snal]

I'll comment on what the police said...(once they got there)...when everyone has had a chance to reply.
This incident was 20 some odd years ago....and the LEOs did ask if we wanted to file charges against the perp/friends.
My brother still can't believe that I didn't shoot, (because he thought he knew me)...and he still doesn't own a firearm other than his first shotgun, which he still leaves with our dad....and he lives in a much more crime prone area than I do. I tell him that if the SHTF...come to my house...and at least he can kick the door open! <G>

[GRB]

rbernie,

Glenn - how many times have you been in a life-threatening situation, and did you (in retrospect) react perfectly each time? Chances are that the first (or second or even the third) time around you were probably a bit, ah, less polished than you'd like. That's human nature. Let's not get all preachy and try to make PR sound like a boob for being, well, human. It's awfully hard to train for EACH and EVERY possible self-defense scenario in which we could reasonably find ourselves.

I think that MikeIsaj hit the nail on the head - nobody got hurt, the reactions described were reasonably appropriate, and PR has some thinkin' to do. That works for me...This is the type of resonse that shows, in my opinion, someone who is getting pissed off and personal. I wonder, is that how you would react in a SHTF scenario too. It would not help you much. Training can help overcome such.

I am neither making anyone look like a boob, nor have I ever said or implied I have been in such situations and acted perfectly. What I am doing is this: I am advocating training before the fact for those who have not been in such a situation, and after the fact for any of you who have and who were lucky enough not to shoot an innocent or get shot themselves.

Just because luck prevailed and no one got hurt, does not mean that the people involved do not need training. So if my suggestion that anyone who picks up a firearm for self defense or home defense is not being responsible if they do not get training seems to be "preachy" as you call it, then tough stuff for you and I'll preach on. The fact of the matter is that Partisan Ranger, in essence, invited critiques by posting on an open forum. I gave one. My critique is not namby pamby as some would prefer but is dead serious because using a gun for defense is dead serious business. If that is not to your fancy, fine but please do not accuse me of trying to make someone look like a boob when that is as far from my intent or as far from what I have written as is possible (AND I WENT OUT OF MY WAY TO SAY SO IN MY FIRST POST because I wanted it understood it would be a hard critique to swallow but yet it is well worth digesting).

Chances are that the first (or second or even the third) time around you were probably a bit, ah, less polished than you'd like. That's human nature. You see my intent, no matter how seemingly harsh to novitiates or even to the highly experienced, is that you should get all the training you can possibly get. Human nature will not help you much in a situation that requires firearms, self defense, or home defense training. Polishing up human nature, by repetition of some good things and some mistakes, while being involved in several gunfights or SHTF situations will do little if you survive each (or don't kill an innocent each time).You see when you do it that way, you do not learn from your mistakes, or from your good choices, because you do not realize which was which. When someone tells you: Well you could have done a bit better and then pats you on the back and says great job anyway - you tend to think wow I did real good. Stuff like that causes complacency. If you are complacent you will not seek good training to correct yourself. I good swift kick in the butt is sometimes needed even if you did not do it all that wrong. Why - because of complacency but mostly because enough things were done wrong that maybe will get someone killed the next time around. Training ahead of time will help steer you in the right direction; and training after the fact will help assure you do not make the same mistakes again (if you were lucky enough to survive the first time).

After my first armed encounter, I was critiqued and critiqued hard. I listened and I learned. I was also praised by my colleagues who thought I did great. I decided to give more credence to my experienced trainers and to my harshest critics, than to those who thought I had done great and who patted me on my back. They just could not see the mistakes because they just saw the end result as being all important and because they would likely have made the same ones themselves and did not want to admit it. The fact of the matter is that my mistakes were not that bad, but by getting that kick in the pants I wound up listening and paying more attention in training. Because of the kick in the right direction I did much less wrong the next time and the time after that and so on. Mostly because I relish any training I receive. I do not worship it mind you - especially because I do not agree with all of it - but I do relish it and the opportunity to use my brain to learn from it. I do this because I know it may help save my life.

I have been a few SHTF scenarios over the years. Some armed, others not armed. Each time I was so involved I relied heavily upon my training and heavily upon my ability to improvise and use my brain to adapt and act accordingly in each individual situation. If you have no training, then what is it that you are supposed to rely upon. Would it be common sense, would it be human nature, or would it be a scene from a shoot em up movie? It's awfully hard to train for EACH and EVERY possible self-defense scenario in which we could reasonably find ourselves. There is no training that can show you every possible situation you may encounter, and no one who trains you should ever tell you that such is why you are training. First of all you do not train to react to situations but, the way you said it that is what is implied. What you should do is train to take action - not to react. You do not train for situation A or B or C and so forth even though training scenarios A, B and C may be used in class. While you do train for how to act in a multitude of situations, you also train how to think at those times when such training is called upon to help you make it. The training is not telling you this is how it will happen - the training is telling you that based upon what you have learned - if a SHTF situations come up - you must do certain things. You must assess the situation and take action based upon your assessment of the situation, you must reassess as you go along and change action as you deem necessary - you must not simply react to the situation. This does cover every situation in which you could find yourself, not because it tells you what to expect but because it prepares you to take action. If you assess properly there is a much less likely chance of hurting an innocent. If you take action instead of react, the bad guy and the situation do not control you and you are more likely to control them. When you take the lead in taking action, the bad guy often winds up reacting to you because he has no plan for what you just did. Then your chances of survival increase dramatically. The fact of the matter is that in the situation as described most of the so called 'action' was reaction. Therefore it just was plain out pretty lucky that the dad did not get shot - lucky in that he did not climb the stairs and try to open the door. It is not a nice thing to think about, it is tough to imagine, but the truth of the matter is that had the dad climbed those stairs and grabbed the door knob or knocked hard on the door the result may well have been fatal the way things were unfolding. Training would not assure positively that such would not happen anyhow but, training would be more likely to let such develop even close to the point it did. Training is not panic or foolproof. Training sure goes a long way to prepare you, to make sure you are not a fool and to make sure you will not panic because it prepares you to assess such a situation and to take appropriate action.

What would be foolish would be to say: 'Wow you done real good bubba' when bubba only accomplished little more than nothing except being lucky. It is better to have a plan, to train for defense as best you can, to practice your training and plan as often as you can. To say anyone did fine without preparing properly is only to encourage others to do likewise. Are you willing to live with the idea that someone died because he/she did not train, all because you said someone else who did not train did well without a plan. Not me.

As far as guys like Mike go, I think Mike can answer for himself. He usually does so quite well in our discussions of the issues at hand without telling me I am being preachy or without telling me I am making someone look like a boob and that is even when we disagree pretty strongly. By the way, it was certainly never my opinion nor my intent to make anyone appear as a boob. Yet, you are free to interpret things as you see fit even when I have already explained that while my critique may be quite hard to take it is not meant to degrade anyone. I actually thought it was quite courageous and intelligent for him to in essence say: 'hey I think I screwed up somewhat - what can I do better next time - I learned some lessons'. Thing is there were other lessons to be learned from his experience and, based upon what he wrote, he was not aware of them. You can take what I say however you choose to interpret it; but I can tell you for a fact that you are interpreting it the wrong way. Am I being preachy, maybe so but that is my prerogative and what I am preaching may just save a life. I can say amen to that and sleep well. That is just my opinion take it or leave it.

All the best,
Glenn B

[GRB]

I think I would have been right by shooting (with intent to hit per aim) thru the door...since there was already an entry involved. What would have been the justification?

Think of this, what if the police had come in the side door. What if they had received a call of a bad crime in progress and somehow went to the wrong location. Would you have been justified. Sure the cops would have been at the wrong place at the wrong time, but were certainly acting within the scope of their duties and would not have been threatening you. Shooting through a door, when you do not know what is on the other side could have you put away for many years for manslaughter.

Again the best thing to do is assess the situation and take appropriate action. calling out was good, saying you would shoot through the door maybe good maybe bad, now if it is a bad guy they figure you are armed. Having your brother kick open the door - not so good. Having him in the firing line, also not so good. Did you take cover? Did your brother arm himself and take cover. Did you call police or think of it - probably much more justified in this scenario than the first one described because these guys were trying to make it seem they were bad guys, and because it seemed the dog was being hurt.

Don't think so much of what we think here; think more along the lines of what the jury would think during your trial if you had killed your friends. Chances are you would be on trial in todays crazy world.

As for the suggestion of a good arse whomping for your friends, maybe not bad.

[Arc-Lite]

Glen B....spoken like a true drill sergeant, and your focus of this is correct. There is sometimes, the lax attitudes of "if it turns out...it must have been done correctly" which tends to lose any insight, from the encounter. Bottom line, get a handle on everything before touching off a cap....shooting threw any door, is a bad idea... any shoot, is not the end of anything...it is the beginning of a nightmare.

[snal]

<<Don't think so much of what we think here; think more along the lines of what the jury would think during your trial if you had killed your friends. Chances are you would be on trial in todays crazy world.>>

(I've yet to figure out how to paste a quote correctly)

I'll jump ahead with the LEO remarks...since this applies.

One of the officers quickly jumped on me for having the gun...period!...it was entirely legal for me to have it...but he impressed me as being one of those LEOs that thinks that "they" should be the only ones that are allowed to have guns...I chose not to argue the point with an officer that came to help ME. The other officer told my friends that I could have shot them "legally" since they were basically guilty of B&E...and that I had warned them...yet they continued forward.
I think it would have been a toss up, to a jury, if I'd fired on my friends...the idiots...maybe not if it had turned out that they were indeed BG intuders....glad I didn't need to find out.

[rbernie]

This is the type of resonse that shows, in my opinion, someone who is getting pissed off and personal. I wonder, is that how you would react in a SHTF scenario too. It would not help you much. Training can help overcome such.This made me smile. No, my friend - I'm not pissed off. I was (and am) disappointed that your critique of PR smelled more of pulpit sermonizing than anything else.

It is better to have a plan, to train for defense as best you can, to practice your training and plan as often as you can. This seems to be a common sentiment, shared by many in this thread. In fact, I didn't see it as an issue in dispute. The question wasn't (even from PR) whether he did right or not - the question was what could he have done better. You chose to write a thesis in response, all of which was predicated upon your interpretation of his state of 'panic'. I thought (and think) that you chose to interpret his comments about panic a bit too dramatically. That's just a difference in opinion between you and I, but it speaks volumes to how each of us responded to the thread.

You can take what I say however you choose to interpret it; but I can tell you for a fact that you are interpreting it the wrong way. Am I being preachy, maybe so but that is my prerogative and what I am preaching may just save a life.And that's fair enough. But I'll remind you that the best trainers - the ones who've REALLY imparted lessons that help keep you alive - were also likely the ones who spoke in simple, short sentences and didn't try to bludgeon the trainee with five-minute long dramatic passages about how stupid they were. Chances are they found the things that you were doing right and commented on those FIRST, before providing the needed course corrections in a direct and simple manner.

Maybe I've just been lucky that way.

[imechura]

7. I need to practice shooting and home defense. It didn't occur to me until it was over that I never turned off the safety on the shotgun. I guess this would support the argument to not have a safety at all, like on the Glock, because in the heat of the moment, it's quite easy, for a layman anyway, to forget about it.

This is suprising to me.

For the longest time I shot glocks and sigarms pistol which don't have safteys. Then I purchased an H&K USP VAR1 that has a saftey and I keep it engauged at all times.

When I purchased this my only fear was that whn SHTF I would forget to disengauge the saftey.

Then, on night about a week after the purchase I was upstairs in bed when I heard something loud downstairs. I live alone with my girlfriend so I knew that there where no friendlies down there.

So I rolled off the bed and grabbed my new USP and low and behold I noticed the quiet sound of a "click" and realized without even knowing it I had disengauged the saftey mechanism.

Luckily, it was just some dishes that settled vey loudly in the kitchen sink down stairs.

[elzippo]

Partisan Ranger,

IMO, You need to turn in your weapons (all of them).

You could have killed your own parents, or your kid .
What causes you to be so paranoid? :eek:

Elzippo