I apologise for last nights RANT!

[crashresidue]

Cheers people,

I'm ashamed of what I posted last night! I got home and "fragged" you guys!

Yea, I like quotes - sorry.

What I posted was a result of something that happened that evening - and you people didn't deserve my venting!

I took my Lady to a movie (chick flick) - because I don't like her out by herself alone, at night - so, I went with her.

We come out of the theater and see a group of people standing around "something" in the parking lot. It's in the direction of my car, so we went that way.

There's an OLD asian woman laying on the ground, bleeding from a "cut". NO body is helping her, they're just standing around!

Four or five people are standing around, NO body has called 911, they haven't done ANYTHING! I WENT off!

She'd been mugged, had her pocketbook CUT off her arm and then left for dead.

We get to her, she's got major asphalt rash on her face and a 3 inch cut on her arm. Purse snatcher got resistence, buddy slammed her in the head, and then they cut the purse off her arm. She's laying on her face, crying!

Cops show up 11 minutes later - no "lights, NO music" - just a casual drive to the scene!

First thing the cop does (NOTE, NOT an LEO - just a Barney Fife - super sized) and then starts giving me sh*t for "getting involved!" "You don't have the training to be involved" and extra BS!

Dispatch won't send an EMT until the "on scene officer" calls for it! I'm passed livid by now - I'm in RAGE!

I've kept the vic on the ground - I don't know how bad she's hurt - the cops DEMAND she gets up as soon as they get on scene.

This is the second mugging I've been involved in - and both times - I can't LEGALLY carry - and I got there minutes too late to change the outcome.

First time, I'm coming out of a computer store - it's a gang beating going on in the parking lot - lots of people standing around. No one is doing anything. I come out of the store, see what's happening, grab my cell, run toward the altercation screaming "911, I've got a gang action in the parking lot of "****" Mall and need a unit."

One of the people standing around - is a CCW holder! I've seen him at the gun-range. I broach him the next time and his response was "I didn't want to get involved - I could loose my permit!

THAT'S why I went off!

My Lady - well she still so p'd - she won't even try to talk - all I get out of her is "$#%^ them - they deserve what they're gonna get!" "I" won't help!"

To who ever asked for unit desigantions(sp?)in Rhodesia - I flew for "Mad Mike' - enough said?

Again - I'm SORRY! YOU didn't deserve what I laid on you!

Gentle winds,
Russ

[Alex45ACP]

Well there are certain situations you should get involved in, like the one you described (and I hope you're not just making it up to save face). But if you see some little old lady get mugged, and the perp is running off with her purse, what are you going to do? You can't shoot him in the back (I wish :D ).

But for most situations, I probably won't get involved. I'm not sticking my neck out for people I don't even know, especially when I don't really know what's going on. I will call 911 and be a good witness, but I'm not going to try to be a hero.

For example, a fight between two or more males. I have no idea what's going on, why the fight started, etc. I will not get involved unless someone's about to get killed, and even then maybe not.

What about a fight between a male and a female? Ahh, now this sounds like the perfect opporunity to be a "knight in shining armor", right? Seems like it, but chances are the girl will fight you back just as hard as the guy (ever see COPS, when they're trying to break up a domestic disturbance? Same phenomena).

So in conclusion, be very careful getting involved in other people's business.

[cliffy109]

I read your original rant and almost sent you a private message of support. Yes, you were harsh and probably not the most articulate advocate for the "sheepdog", but you were right. Far too many folks are more concerned with thier own hide and not that of their fellow man.

What I have learned, and it looks like you still need to learn, is that there are very few folks who share your point of view. Don't let yourself get worked up over that fact. Even among those whom you would think would understand the concept of the "sheepdog", its a rare person who actually lives that life.

For future refrence, you might want to personalize things a bit to those that disagree with you. Ask them how they would feel if it was their mother who was laying on the ground with a cut arm, scraped face and missing her purse. Wouldn't they want a hero to step forward for thier loved one? Well, if that's what they would want for their loved one, why shouldn't they be the hero for somebody else's loved one?

Believe it or not, there are those who still don't get it. Its a selfish way to live, but that's their choice, just as its my choice to be a sheepdog. I wish there were more of us, but there aren't and there isn't anything you or I can do about that.

[Morty76]

Alex45ACP,

One of the guys I worked with saw a husband and wife having a fist fight outside of a bar. My friend steps in to break it up and the girl starts beating on him.

Another guy I work with his friend stepped in to break up a husband and wife fight. The girl pulled out a razor slashed this guy's face up bad... took in the neighborhood of 600 stitches to close up.

So much for being a knight in shining armor.

[Bob F.]

I live in a little different area, the Appalachains (sp?) where many folks still look out for one another. I, too, nearly posted last night, but it was getting late. I still help motorists if it "feels right" and I am CCW. I'd probably have done the same as you did last night and probably have gotten in the Barney's face (not good).

We did some role playing in a simunitions class: one scene the good guy walks up on a fight between a man and woman rolling on the ground fighting over a knife. The GG is not LEO. REAL tough call! Turns out the woman is a druggie who tried mugging a guy who resisted. If GG gets between 'em she sticks him. He's really not justified in shooting without knowing who's who. GG on the ground got shot a couple times. OC might have been the trick, here.

I pretty much agree with above posters and will add: Use your head and trust your instincts.

Stay safe.
Bob

[dpesec]

I read you post last night. Just like many of the others, I understand your frustration :banghead:. This is not a new problem. Remember the poor woman, I think it was in New York, who was murdered in the courtyard of her apartment building. She was screaming for help but "nobody saw anything or called the police".
I don't know what I would have done in your place. I hope you got the badge number of the LEO and will report him or her to the supervisor.

Remember sometimes it's best to vent and get it off your chest. No hurt, no foul.

I've been to Maui and loved it. I hate to think that paradise is becoming the same cesspool like everyplace else.

[Edmond]

I hope you got the badge number of the LEO and will report him or her to the supervisor.

I hope so. It seems like that LEO didn't have the training to call the EMT either. :rolleyes:

I never understood the syndrome of "someone else will do it." I run across so many of those people, even in non-life threatening situations.

Example:

BF cheats on GF. All the guys know about it, even the girls know about it. BF is going away for National Guard Duty and wants a commitment, even after he's cheated, of course, GF doesn't know about it. Supposed "friend" of GF's doesn't even tell her, says, "It's none of my business." I step in and tell GF about it. GF confronts BF and they break up. GF ends up dating the guy who said "It's none of my business" a few months later.

People confuse me. :uhoh:

[Gunsnrovers]

Hawaii has always been as much as a cesspool as any other place. Lived on Oahu for a few years in the '80's and spent a lot of time on the other islands. As much crime there as anywhere else. In some ways more then others. Lots of money in small pockets, but even more poverty in surrounding areas.

Sometimes biggest problem getting involved is trying to figure out who the good guys are. As was shown in an example above, the only two fights I've come across "in progress" had what turned out to be the good guy winning. Both times I had my boy with me and frankly he is my priority.

Easy to sit back on the keyboard and shout about getting involved. Sometimes it's better to let the local gene pool clear itself out.

[cliffy109]

I don't think Crashresidue, nor anybody here would advocate getting involved in every altercation you witness. That would be crazy. There are however, times when there is an obvious bad guy and good guy. It seems to me that too many folks get so worked up over liability concerns and telling themselves not to rush to judgement that they miss those obvious times. The situation he described of a small, elderly Asian lady getting her purse cut away from her is one of those times, yet everybody stood by and said "I'm not getting involved" for one reason or another.

I've seen this in many different discussion on different boards. There always seems to be a large number of folks who are so bent on self preservation that they will never advocate helping others. They get indignant when others disagree with them and accuse the sheepdogs of having a John Wayne mentality. They tell them that if they want to be heros to go sign up to be a police officer. Its quite insulting. I could just as easily call them cowards but I don't because I think they have a right to be selfish. I do wish they would stop just shut up instead of berating those who choose to help their fellow man.

[pax]

My dad owned a commercial fishing boat for several years while I was a kid. We used to go down to the docks on Saturdays so he could work on the boat.

One morning, when I was probably eleven or twelve years old, I had one of my friends with me. We'd been rowing around the bay in the boat's dinghy, and had just tied up at the other end of the docks, maybe a 1/2 mile from where Dad was working down inside the engine room of our fishing boat. Stepped ashore and one of the local guys, just walking down the dock, had some kind of a seizure. He was arched over backwards, beating his head against the boards and pretty quick he was bleeding bad.

There were a bunch of people around, people working on boats or bringing in groceries or just lounging around. Several of them, all adults, came running over. They all just kind of stood there and watched the guy, which I guess is what you're supposed to do for a seizure only he was beating himself against one of the metal tie down things and maybe someone could have moved him away from that spot a little. No one did, though.

My friend said, "Someone should go call an ambulance."

I agreed with her, and none of the adults was willing to call, so she and I went running up the plank to look for a phone. One of the adults went with us to show us where the phone was. We pleaded with him to make the call, because neither of us knew how to describe which set of docks we were on, but he wouldn't do it. He evaporated as soon as dispatch picked up.

So my friend talked to the dispatch person, and I stayed up top to wave the paramedics down while she went back to see how the guy was doing.

Remember all those people standing around? The guy had finished his seizure & kind of sat up in a daze ... and they all disappeared as soon as he sat up. Not one of them were still standing there when she got back down there, no one was helping stop the bleeding, no one was there seeing to it that he didn't fall over the side of the dock in his dazed state. So my friend stayed with him and kept him calm until the ambulance arrived.

No point to the story, only it disgusted me then (and disgusts me now) that grown men would stand around and let little girls do the stuff that the grown men should have been doing. We, of course, were too young & stupid & naive to know that we shouldn't have gotten involved.

pax

[Byron Quick]

Getting in the middle of altercations is a hard call. I can uderstand the guys who say that going home to their wife and children is their first priority.

Unfortunately, I can't honestly make that claim.

I've seen many altercations. I've gotten involved in some...once with a drawn handgun.

But...the ones I became involved in were easy calls as to good guy and bad guy. In one, I witnessed the big brave man break his girl friends nose with the first punch. I reached him on about punch three, got a good choke on him from behind and dragged him out of my secretary's home. Let him go outside. He wanted to fight. I told him no and that if he hit me that I was going to shoot him. I didn't call the cops. She was inside by telephone and they wouldn't do anything if she didn't press charges anyway. She didn't.

Locking up my furniture store one night, I heard screams coming from the rickety old house behind it. I walked back there. Spring evening and the front door was open. There was an old man sitting in a chair with his head hanging...drooling bubbly blood into his lap. A young man was still beating him. I felt that it was a reasonable assumption that a 75 year old man hadn't started the fist fight. I walked into the home and drew my handgun. I was holding it at low ready. The young man turned around. I gave him a choice: stop beating the old man or get shot. FYI, this was in the days before cell phones so calling the police was not an option.

If I can't tell the circumstances then I will call the police. However, if I see a couple of young men beating on an old lady...I will assume that the old lady didn't try to mug the two of them and act accordingly. Which will involve advancing with gun drawn at low ready and telling them to stop. I won't try to hold them as my primary concern is to render aid to the old lady. I can't see to her care while standing guard over a couple of scum,

[Alex45ACP]

^ So what happened to the criminal? Did you let him go or hold him for the cops?

I hate to think what kind of lawsuit that would get you in these days.

[Byron Quick]

So what happened to the criminal? Did you let him go or hold him for the cops?

No phone. I made him leave and took the old man to the hospital. They called the police. I gave my statement. I was never called to court as a witness so I assume that the old man declined to press charges.

As far as the lawsuit goes...maybe in some states. Georgia lawyers like to be paid. You're not going to find one who will take a case like that on a contigency fee basis. The only way that you'd face a lawsuit from a crook is if he had money to throw away.

I've been paying attention to self defense shooting in Georgia for many years. In instances where it is ruled justifiable homicide; I have never known a wrondgul death lawsuit to be filed. There's probably been some but I'm willing to bet that the family had money. I'm also willing to bet that they lost.

I have a friend who was once involved in a shooting. No witnesses. He was charged with murder and acquitted. The family did have money and filed a wrongful death lawsuit. They won. My buddy was about 24 and had no assets. He filed bankruptcy and they got not one thin dime. Their lawyer got paid. I knew the guy that was killed also. So I believe my buddy when he said it was self defense. Twice, in confrontations with the deceased; I had been down to thinking:"Draw and shoot? No...not yet...Now?...not yet...
Guy was running around wanting someone to shoot him, in my opinion.

[armedandsafe]

I was headed back home from a client's at about 6:00 pm and decided to drop by the bank, to deposit the client's check. I pulled into the East entrance of the stripmall and was looking directly into the setting sun. I saw, in silhouette only, two men running toward me with drawn guns, looking back over their shoulder. At the far end of the stripmall, I saw a person wearing a police hat running toward us, about a block away.

I yanked the wheel left, flipped the car into reverse and dropped the clutch, killing the engine and stopping the car. I rolled out the door and hunkered behind the hood/front wheel and laid the Dan Wesson across the hood and commanded the armed pair to stop. They did. I had them drop their weapons and get on the ground, hands behind heads and legs spread. They did. I then waited for the cop to catch up.

When he arrived, it was one of the local beat cops whom I knew, puffing and blowing. When he arrived, I held out my cuffs, in case he wanted another pair. He waved them off and blew for a couple of breaths. Then he grinned and said, "Bob, we have a little problem." He pointed to the balcony over the cop shop office. There were 3 or 4 cops and 2 plainclothes standing there watching us. Charlie continued. "This was a training exercise, and I blew it."

Oh.

Sometimes, even the best actions can be an "AHHH $&(^." :D

Pops

[cliffy109]

Please tell me you're joking about that. That is one of the most lame brained training stunts I've ever heard of. Two men, guns drawn running from a cop in public, in broad daylight is a great way to get the trainers killed. A reasonable person would assume there was a crime in progress and with armed men running towards them, most folks could also reasonably assume they were in mortal danger.

[Byron Quick]

Hey! They're from the government! They're here to help us!:)

[Preacherman]

Lame-brained or not, it's been known to happen... Back in South Africa, a cop was actually killed by a citizen during just such an incident in the 1970's. Two cops were role-playing BG's, being chased by a couple of rookie cops. The citizen saw the pursuit, naturally assumed the worst, and drew his gun. He ordered the "BG's" to stop and lie down, and they yelled at him to get out of the way. Terminal mistake, that... one cop dead, the other seriously injured. No charges were ever filed, as it's not just permissible, but legally required (or was, at that time - don't know about today) in South Africa for all citizens to assist police in such a situation.

[Powderman]

Holy crap! I did not know it was THAT bad in Hawaii!

My son is stationed there, at K-Bay. Before he left for Iraq, he told me about an incident.

He went with one of his fellow Marines to a local club. The friend got plastered, my son did not (he doesn't drink). Well, my son was sort of dragging/carrying his friend back to the barracks when they were jumped by four local guys. I guess my son went into bulldog/pitbull mode--his friend was unhurt, he got a bloody nose in what he described as "about five minutes of PT." (Gotta love those Marines! :) )

Anyway, he finally made it back to the barracks, and told his story to other Marines.

From what I understand, the next day there was a story going about on how four locals were found in a ditch, with the pluperfect crap beaten out of them. The local command was inquiring, because apparently about 20 personnel wearing buzz cuts, and some Navy (!) personnel were involved as well. (You GO, swabbies!)

[slydel0kt]

crash,

no harm, no foul here, bro. I've used a forum to vent now and again. And I think most members know 'blowing off steam' when they see it. We all do it. The apology just shows class.

Dan

[Mute]

Given that information, I can understand your frustration. I would have been livid as well and probably on the warpath for someone's hide.

[Warren]

I read your post and RLASBA from the thread. Ironic, I know.

No way I was getting involved in that train wreck.

Glad you've calmed down now.

[Arc-Lite]

If I feel I have a good handle on the situation....I jump right in....and have no problems mixing it up...but the key is having a real good handle on what is happening....and having an appropriate response. Not hard to see, all the changes of question..going on, in the world.... and I believe, if you desire changes...you, yourself, must be the change. It is a hard call, but something ever harder, is not doing something...and knowing you should.

[crashresidue]

Cheers,

Thanks for accepting the apology!

As far as how bad it's getting in Hawaii - since the DEA's "green harvest" has been so effective getting "poco lolo" (pot) off the streets here in paradise, ICE has taken over!

Last officer "shooting" was to kill an "ice head" who was trying to run him down in a stolen car. She was free on personal recognisinse(sp?) with 11 felony convictions and 15 charges pending!

It wasn't her first auto theft charge.

Maui is a GREAT place to live - but it ain't paradise anymore! Please come for vacation - just don't take anything for granted - crime wise.

Gentle winds,
Russ

[crashresidue]

Alex45ACP -

If I COULD have made this up, and then send you the mind picture I'll live with the rest of my life, God, knows - I'd do it in a heart beat!

I've got the badge number - but I'll NEVER get through the PIO! I've locked horns with these people before, and it got ugly! EACH and every time!

"What ever time it is at your house, it's STILL 1950 on Maui"

"Barny - yo, BARNY - are you still here?"

Gentle winds,
Russ

[mfree]

I've called 911 four times so far in my young life, once for myself, and three times for others... and only once didn't when I could.

1. Some drugged up kids in momma's buick left the road at about 110mph, flipped several times, "landed" 20' up an apple tree and fell down on it's wheels, running. I called 911, checked the scene, talked the conscious passenger into shutting the car off and sitting STILL, and assessed the driver's piss-poor condition before my mother showed up (ex-RN) and held his head up so he wouldn't aspirate on his own blood from the crushed skull and missing ear. Somewhere in the field beside my old home is a human ear, somewhere...

2. I watched a complete moron toss a cinder block through the neighboring computer store when I worked at RS, and try and make off with the cash register. Called 911, made myself real inconspicuous in the window, and watched. Guy left empty handed in an old volvo 200 series, don't know from there.

3. Raining buckets on the highway, power's out, coming up to an intersection when a car driving *way* too fast for conditions runs a flashing red and slams into a car in front of me. I know the station is no more than a mile away, as well as first responders, so I parked on the shoulder on the other side of the intersection and called the law. I saw people moving, no fires, waited for the 911 operator to say law's on the way and after giving her my contact info, I left. it was 40 degrees and raining 3" an hour, I figure dragging everyone out into the cold rain would have been worse than sitting in the car.

4. My car decided it'd like to try and knock one of those interstate highway dividers over head-on, no matter where I told it to go. In *theory* I should have called dispatch but I wasn't quite right in the head, that was a pretty hard lick.


Where I didn't call: Watched an F150 run a stop sign and pop a big Ram in the passenger side enough to get all 4 wheels off the ground and shove it 6 feet. Everyone was out of their cars within seconds, walking, talking, and one had the phone out to his ear. Figured it was all handled.

I also called dispatch once during another pouring storm when this little toyota out in the parking lot decided to activate it's horn and blare for about an hour straight. About 6 minutes into that I called Alcoa dispatch since they were up the street and told them the deal. I was running the store alone, couldn't go anywhere.