Local indoor shooting range does not allow concealed carry


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Sir Aardvark
April 24, 2005, 04:05 PM
I just found out that the indoor shooting range that I frequent does not allow CCW holders to carry concealed while inside the facility.

I asked the guy behind the counter (not the owner) about the policy, and he said "Only law enforcement can carry in here, and every other person in here is a cop anyway.....so it's pretty safe."

I realize that business owners can make any rules they please, within certain limitations, but to be in the gun business, and promote the gun business, and to even have classes that teach CCW and gun safety stuff, and then say that you can't legally carry concealed on their premises is a bit hypocritical, I think.

I know that their main concern is for the safety of their patrons, but the bad guys who they're worried about aren't going to follow the rules anyways, leaving me, the rule-follower, at a disadvantage.

I think that their safety rules are a bit askew - what do you think?.

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lycanthrope
April 24, 2005, 04:11 PM
Our local gun store is fine with CCW on premises, but on the range everyone has to obey "cold range" rules. Since some of us are shooting from concealment anyhow, CCW holders must abide by the rules as well to insure the utmost in safety.

Zundfolge
April 24, 2005, 04:14 PM
I don't have a problem with them not allowing you to draw and fire from concealment, but not letting CCW holders carry on premises does look a little hypocritical to me.

Then again, concealed means concealed. Just don't shoot the piece you're carrying and they'll probably never know (depends on what the laws are in your state regarding businesses putting up "no CCW" type signs).

hoji
April 24, 2005, 05:08 PM
The major traveling gun show in Texas{wont name them but if you say Texas backward.....} has the 30.06 penal code warning that CHL holders are subject to being charged with criminal trespass if they carry to their gun show.
I called the operators of this show and was told that the rule was in place because they were concerned about "SHOOTING RAMPAGES" :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I tried to explain that the law abiding atendees of the show were the only people who would adhere to this but got nowhere.
Seems odd that a show where you can buy {please forgive the terminology}An "assault rifle at one table,a 100 round drum magazine at the next table,and a case of ammo at the table across the aisle, that the operators are worried about CHL holders going on a shooting rampage.

JohnKSa
April 24, 2005, 05:18 PM
Tom's Discount Gun and Indoor Range has this sign posted.

Hkmp5sd
April 24, 2005, 06:17 PM
I've seen the signs at gun stores and gun shows. It is because of their fear of ADs. As it is their property, it's their rules. Either comply or take your business elsewhere. On the other hand, if it is concealed, how will they know you are violating their rule?

Standing Wolf
April 24, 2005, 06:20 PM
I know that their main concern is for the safety of their patrons...

No, it's not. Their main concern is control. I'd shoot elsewhere, and let those nitwits know why: if you don't respect my civil rights, you don't get my dollars.

justice4all
April 24, 2005, 06:27 PM
Fortunately for us Coloradans, we've got lots of open federal land to shoot on.

DMK
April 24, 2005, 06:34 PM
I don't necesarily agree with it, but I can understand one side of the argument. Have you ever seen a few guys talking guns and one idiot draws his loaded CCW to show off it's sights, finish, barrel length, whatever? This guy will likely think the four rules of gun safety don't apply to him either.

SnakeEater
April 24, 2005, 06:41 PM
This guy will likely think the four rules of gun safety don't apply to him either.

And being a LEO somehow makes him safer? I could somewhat see the logic in not allowing any CCW at a cold range, but these guys are saying LEO's are ok but nobody else. If safety is truly their concern how about banning LEO's from carrying but letting everybody else.

RicVa
April 24, 2005, 08:05 PM
As far as I know and have seen, every gun shop, range, and gun show around here has signs saying you must unload before coming in. People say that they would not give these places their business and go elsewhere, but in my area, there is nowhere that doesn't have these policies. I agree it is hypocritical though, but I have to shop and shoot somewhere.

BlkHawk73
April 24, 2005, 08:51 PM
My guess is it's got something to do with thier insurance. You carry on thier premises and something goes wrong...

LEO's would be covered by thier own dept.

Andrew Rothman
April 24, 2005, 09:32 PM
In Minnesota, I've been to Koscielski's, Bill's, Burnsville, Frontiersman, Outdoorsman and Gun Stop, not to mention Gander Mountain, and not one has such a sign.

Standing Wolf
April 24, 2005, 10:06 PM
Have you ever seen a few guys talking guns and one idiot draws his loaded CCW to show off it's sights, finish, barrel length, whatever? This guy will likely think the four rules of gun safety don't apply to him either.

Sounds like something those Brady individuals would say.

Ringer
April 24, 2005, 10:26 PM
I have never understood why it seems so many gun owners are not more bothered by this. To me what could send a worse message to the anti-gun crowd than shops that sell guns, provide training for CCW and then don't allow CCW in their own store. Same with gun clubs.

Their was a large shop and indoor range in SE Michigan that used to have a very similar sign. Finally they have changed their ways and taken down the sign that said they only acknowledge CCW for LEO. I have actually been back now that the sign is down.

Old Dog
April 24, 2005, 10:43 PM
Ah, one of those things I love about Washington (state). One of the original "shall issue" states, and I've never seen a ridiculous sign like that here. Although, come to think of it, one indoor range I frequent does have a sign that says if you're bringing a gun in, it must be cased or holstered. That's about it, up here in this most reasonable state.

I did once see however, in an eastside gun store, a gentleman pull out his concealed handgun (a Colt Det. Special) to show it off to the guy behind the counter, and covered about four of us customers and the clerk with the muzzle in the process ... so I sorta understand a nervous gunshop owner ...

model 649
April 24, 2005, 11:09 PM
Ringer, you talking about Target Sports on Woodward? I think that changed when the new owner took over. I was glad to see it down, too.
Josh

longtooth
April 24, 2005, 11:21 PM
They would not get my money. I agree w/ the guy who said the issue is not safety but control.
They that love liberty more than life will die only once. They that fear death more than oppression die every time they close their eyes. Me.

nemesis
April 24, 2005, 11:34 PM
Seems odd that a show where you can buy {please forgive the terminology}An "assault rifle at one table,a 100 round drum magazine at the next table,and a case of ammo at the table across the aisle, that the operators are worried about CHL holders going on a shooting rampage.

Not too odd when you consider that some dork in Austin, possibly a LEO, blasted another guys leg when he drew his CHL gun and attempted to place it in a new holster he was looking at. And that was only several weeks ago.

If CHL holders left their guns concealed, things would be much better but too many of them have to yank them out for stupid reasons. Just remember, having a CHL doesn't make you smart.

Bopleo
April 25, 2005, 12:24 AM
And being a LEO somehow makes him safer? I could somewhat see the logic in not allowing any CCW at a cold range, but these guys are saying LEO's are ok but nobody else. If safety is truly their concern how about banning LEO's from carrying but letting everybody else.

CCW laws usually dont apply to LEO's.

Relayer
April 25, 2005, 12:26 AM
Hot Shots indoor range in Marietta has a "no loaded weapon allowed inside" policy, also.

A gun shop thinks CCWs are dangerous/irresponsible/unsafe/unacceptable/whatever.

What a wonderful endorsement.

Ringer
April 25, 2005, 12:30 AM
Model 649

Actually it was Double Action on Dequindre. Not far from Target. Never saw a sign at Target mabye you are confusing the two, lets hope :)

crucible
April 25, 2005, 12:30 AM
Any gun store/range that bars lawfully carrying people from thier premesis will NEVER get any of my money-they are NO better than any other place of business that does the same, and in my opinion, considerably worse for doing so. Business owners can say it's safe all they want to (carrying themselves no doubt at the same time), but that isn't the point: thier hypocracy and wonderful example to everyone else who has to consider the same issue is.

If that means I skip all those places and order online for all my needs, so be it, and I won't feel sorry in the least when they go out of business.

(What they should do is have posted a list of do's and don'ts and acceptable actions/behaviors; barring thier own customers from lawfully carrying the products they sell to them isn't the answer. Tom's from the above attachment gets it, and that's a place that I'd go out of my way to spend my money at.)

Chris

Hawkmoon
April 25, 2005, 12:50 AM
I just had this discussion with the new owner of the indoor range where I shoot. The previous owner had it posted, and when I went there for the first time under the new ownership the signs were still up. So I asked.

Gentlemen, it is NOT about "control." It is about being able to have insurance. The guy used to just have a gun shop, and he got his insurance through the NRA. He told me the looooooooong, sad story of the incedible run-around he got from the NRA when he went to renew his policy and add a range to it.

The bottom line is, he is no longer getting insurance through the NRA, he is paying a small fortune for the insurance he could get, and the insurance company wants signs. Ergo -- the signs stay.

Stand on principle all you want, but it ain't his fault. It's not like you can pick up the phone and ask Geico for a quote to insure your indoor shooting range. It's a sellers' market, not a buyers' market, and that makes a huge difference.

Sir Aardvark
April 25, 2005, 01:26 AM
Hawk-

I phoned two other indoor ranges in the county I live in and posed the question "Can I carry concealed with a permit in your establishment?."

The first one said "No problem, just tell us you're carrying and show us the permit and that way there will be no misunderstandings."

The second one said "You're not really supposed to. We have it posted NO LOADED FIREARMS, but as long as you have a permit and keep it concealed, everybody here will be fine with it."

Both places do not allow drawing from a holster, which I agree is too risky of a liability for them to assume, but they don't seem to mind having clientele who exercise their CCW privileges.

280PLUS
April 25, 2005, 07:08 AM
At the range I frequent most our policy is that you can carry concealed anywhere in the buildimg but there are only a few places you can expose it.

The range itself, the RO's office, the cleaning room and the classroom (but only during instruction.)

The reasoning being we don't want anybody out in the parking lot clearing their weapons before they enter the building. Mostly for safety reasons but also because there's a BALLET school across the lot and all we need is one ballet mom to see someone clearing their CCW in our lot and the S (will) HTF in no time

I have had a couple of guys bring their loaded, slide open firearms into my office with questions like, "Can you help me get this round out? It's stuck."

:eek:

gunsmith
April 25, 2005, 07:40 AM
only rasta man DEA agent is qualified to carry his "glock .40"
ccw at the range!

NC Shooter
April 25, 2005, 08:27 AM
The indoor range I use allows CCW any time except when an IDPA match is going on. Then the only time you can touch your gun is when you are shooting.

They also allow you to practice drawing from concealment, but request you tell them you will be doing it.

GreenFurniture
April 25, 2005, 08:33 AM
tag

Henry Bowman
April 25, 2005, 09:35 AM
My guess is it's got something to do with thier insurance. I thought that myth had been exposed a long time ago

The Goose
April 25, 2005, 01:49 PM
I belong to two ranges. At one range there are no signs, rules etc. and the issue was never brought up and I always carried. When I recently joined another club I asked during the orientation walk through. The rule is that there are no loaded guns allowed anywhere in the club except on the firing line. The RO said that if you carry openly he will ask to see if it is loaded and it must be unloaded. So I asked what about if it is concealed? His response was "Well, if it is concealed then I don't know it is there do I?" The real concern seemed to be that they do not want folks walking around with loaded guns and neither do I. A holstered and concealed handgun is a whole different matter. The guys who make me nervous are the ones who pull loaded guns out of their range bags or pull a gun out of concealment at the range. Also since there is no open carry in this state I am not upset at the idea that I cannot open carry at the range. Keep it holstered and out of sight.

Daniel T
April 25, 2005, 04:31 PM
nemesis:

Not too odd when you consider that some dork in Austin, possibly a LEO, blasted another guys leg when he drew his CHL gun and attempted to place it in a new holster he was looking at. And that was only several weeks ago.

Do you have a link to a news report for that? Living in Austin, I'm pretty sure I would have heard about it. No search on statesman.com or google brings up anything for it either.

Okiecruffler
April 25, 2005, 05:01 PM
The one discussion I had with a range owner about it never mentioned insurance, but rather protecting himself against litigation. Kinda like posting "not for human consumption" on catfish bait, it helps limit their responsibilty if some yahoo does something stupid.
He then went on to say, "but I ain't taking the time to frisk you everytime you come in, just your wife."

thorazine
April 25, 2005, 07:33 PM
Tom's Discount Gun and Indoor Range has this sign posted.

lol too funny! :neener:

ckyllo
April 25, 2005, 09:16 PM
local indoor range has what looks like no gun sign untill you look closely at it. it says along the lines of " attention criminals this is a defense free zone all firearms have been secured for your convience." followed by why would you do business with a business that treats you like this. I like the business cards that say no guns = no $$$, and says we see your sign and will respect your wishes by doing business elseware.

in MN if the MCPPA ever gets reinstated than the signs on businesses might mean somthing but the old may issue law has no sign provision. even when the MCPPA was in effect the sign only ment somthing if told personaly that no guns were allowed and had the sign up. was fun to go into businesses that where signed and say "I see you have a gun ban sign" than get a response of " yep dont want those kind of people around here" and respond with "yeah I can see where you are coming from" the whole time packing. some sheep just need the wool removed from their eyes so they can see the real world. a story going around about a local bank after the CCW law went into effect. a bank had a sign up and someone asked the teller if the sign applied bank robbers or just to carry permit holders. the response was just to carry permit holders. :banghead:

kwelz
April 25, 2005, 10:36 PM
There is a Gun shop with that sign posted around here. It has a no CCW sign posted. I once went in there and talked to the guy. Looked at a few guns, etc. He was trying to sell me a Taurus Tracker. Even offered a really good deal on it. Finally he asked me what he would have to do for me to buy the gun. I told him to take that sign off the door. He gave me a confused look and I left. I went to Keislers and bought the same gun for about 50 bucks more. But they support my right to carry.

straightShot
April 25, 2005, 10:48 PM
Actually it was Double Action on Dequindre. Not far from Target. Never saw a sign at Target mabye you are confusing the two, lets hope

Ringer:

DA had that sign up forever. I saw it five years ago and haven't been back since.

Have they really changed their ways? They finally took that sign down? Heck, do they now also actually allow one to practice rapid firing, or must one still have silence between shots?

Mark in California
April 26, 2005, 05:39 AM
My brother was at a 2,000 table gunshow, and a there was a gunshot. A dealer was asked about a weapon and he "dry fired" before handing to the customer. Unfornatly it was his CCW, and it was loaded. No one was hit, but my brother hit the ground like about almost everyone else. That show does not allow and loaded weapons except for the on duty police.

I read about a firearms discharge at a gunshow last year that resulted in the death of a child

HankB
April 26, 2005, 10:10 AM
The major traveling gun show in Texas{wont name them but if you say Texas backward.....} has the 30.06 penal code warning some dork in Austin, possibly a LEO, blasted another guys leg when he drew his CHL gun and attempted to place it in a new holster he was looking at. And that was only several weeks ago Actually this happened at the Saxet show in Austin several months ago . . . though I hadn't heard it was an LEO involved. Amazingly, this was pretty much overlooked by the local press, so maybe it was an LEO. The show didn't post 30.06 signs until after this happened.

Some gun shops - including those that teach CHL classes - have "No Loaded Guns" signs on the door. These signs are mostly to keep Joe Deerhunter from walking in with a loaded rifle when he wants to have some gunsmithing done. Shop owners know (as do CHL holders) that signs not meeting PC30.06 specifications have no force of law as far as CHL holders are concerned.

GhostRider66
April 26, 2005, 10:47 AM
Local range (where I took my CHL class in fact) has a sign posted indicating that one must unload all weapons before entering and have them checked. This is posted coming into the building/gun shop area and not just if you're entering the range portion. Interesting part about that is it's legally meaningless (as they explained in their own class) since it's not a 30.06. In any case, my feeling is the sign is mostly directed at those bringing the weapons in to use the range and all other business regarding CHL is still OK. Never bothered to ask and they've never noticed I'm carrying.

Ringer
April 26, 2005, 10:10 PM
straightShot

Yep, DA now has a sign that says something to the affect of CCW is OK, keep it holstered etc... Never used the range there and not sure about their range rules. They still won't let you insert, or even hold, a magazine if you are looking at a pistol.

I hadn't been there for some time either but was in the area a few weeks ago and thought I would check, and sure enough new sign but still not one of my favorite places to shop.

RRTX
April 26, 2005, 10:30 PM
Local range (where I took my CHL class in fact) has a sign posted indicating that one must unload all weapons before entering and have them checked. This is posted coming into the building/gun shop area and not just if you're entering the range portion. Interesting part about that is it's legally meaningless (as they explained in their own class) since it's not a 30.06. In any case, my feeling is the sign is mostly directed at those bringing the weapons in to use the range and all other business regarding CHL is still OK. Never bothered to ask and they've never noticed I'm carrying.

Sounds like On Target? I took my CHL class there also, but the one time I've been back since I treated it like you do also. The class was good but their range fees are too high for me to go shoot there even though it isn't far from my house. I've seen similar signs at Bass Pro Shops and Sportsman's Warehouse and treat them the same way, they are just referring to people bringing guns to the range/gunsmith.

blackhawk2000
April 26, 2005, 11:16 PM
Double Action has indeed changed policy. The new sign basically says "keep it concealed, and don't go showing it around". I stopped in 2 weeks ago, to see if anything has changed, and was pleasantly surprised to see the new sign. I ended up walking out with my first AR15, a 14.5" Bushmaster, and came back the next week to shoot it. I was doing some rapid fire strings, and was never reprimanded about it.

BluesBear
April 27, 2005, 12:20 AM
The indoor range where I shoot every week has a policy of no loaded guns except on the firing line. If you have a CPL you can only draw it on the firing line. Weather you use the range door or enter through the retail store ALL guns must be "encased".

Recently Lady45 wanted to see about a holster for her CCW in their retail store portion. She had to go into the range, unload and return with the gun unloaded. After she looked at holsters she returned to the range and reloaded. Sure it's a bit complicated but safety is of the utmost importance.

As for gunshows. IN THE PAST, where I used to live. I have been known to carry a snub in a ankle holster. At the shows out here, I'd be banned for life for doing that. In fact is has been a hot topic of debate within the Washington Arms Collectors membership. But gunshow rules still state that ANY weapon must be "tied".

I personally believe that CPL holders should be allowed to carry. But I have also seen numerous cases, in other states, where CCW people draw their loaded weapon to check out a holster or magazine or some other idiotic reason. So I accept the restriction and look over my shoulder all day while at the shows.

At least I live in an area where we have decent shows to attend.
And they do have pretty good security. They seem to be everywhere.

coylh
April 27, 2005, 12:41 AM
I think it's funny that some people have no problem being disarmed by the people selling them Second Amendment bumper stickers.

BluesBear
April 27, 2005, 08:16 AM
Oh but I do have a problem with it. But to be honest I can understand their reasoning. I also don't really feel that there is a need for me to carry there so I go along with it. I'd carry there if I could but it's not worth getting banned for doing so.

However I do feel the need to be armed while walking amongst the idiots and wackos in the mall. If I get kicked out of the mall I won't mind a bit. The twice a year at most I go there isn't really all that important to me.


coylh, if you are a WAC mamber then you know about the ongoing "discussions" about CPL holders and the shows. Hopefully someday the policy will change. But if they ever do change the policy then sure as the sun rises in the east some numbnut will do something stoopid and screw it up for the rest of us.

Many good people who safety CCW all year long seem to forget the rules when surrounded by overpriced milsurps and magikboolit ammunition.

I was almost shot at a gunshow in Indiana by a guy who absent mindedly put a loaded mag into a pistol. Luckily the floor only sustained a flesh wound.

GhostRider66
April 27, 2005, 08:42 AM
RRTX,

Yep, On Target is the one. Pretty pricey indeed. About the only time my wife and I will go is on a Tuesday night because they do a two-for-one special. Otherwise, we drive to Quail Creek. I hear there's a new one near you though (in Joshua). I have the flyer for it somewhere. Haven't tried it out so not sure as to the prices but it did look like it was pretty nice.

c_yeager
April 27, 2005, 09:32 AM
If you have a CPL you can only draw it on the firing line. Weather you use the range door or enter through the retail store ALL guns must be "encased".

And yet, when you buy a gun at that same shop/range you have to ask nicely to get a paper sack to carry it in. They have no problem with sending you out the door with a completely 'naked' firearm but, God help you if you bring one in. They are pretty good guys though so im not gonna complain about it, just thought it was kinda odd, everyone else gives you a box or a bag as a matter of course. Judging by some of the characters i've seen on the range over there I COMPLETELY understand their being a little "gun shy" (haha).

Really i have a lot of sypathy for indoor ranges. If you ever go to an older range just look at the walls, floor, ceiling, dividers, heck everywhere and realize that some person (probably a different one each time) actually managed to discharge a firearm in such a way as to make each and every one of those holes. You dont have to see that happen too much to lose a lot of faith in gunowners as a group. Im still waiting for the day when the Brady folks are gonna figure this angle out and do some kind of segment on how irresponsible gun owners are. I know the sight inside a lot of range scares ME, i cant imagine how it would make the average citizen feel.

GEM
April 27, 2005, 12:17 PM
The Saxet incident didn't involve an LEO according to reports, I've seen.

I also talked to the management who never mentioned shooting rampages. They specifically said their liability insurance situation changed because of the shooting and they had to make the change. They also said they were very angry because the 30.06 sign gave the wrong message but they had to.

Maybe they could find other insurance but once you have a black mark, other companies may not take you for affordable prices.

BluesBear
April 28, 2005, 07:27 AM
And yet, when you buy a gun at that same shop/range you have to ask nicely to get a paper sack to carry it in. I have never seen a handgun go out of Sam's "naked". If you buy a handgun without a box they automatically put it into a bag before they hand it to you. At least that's what they did with me and that's the only way I seen it done with others too.

I see it as covering their own a$$ets. If a guy walks in with a gun in his hand he could be a robber. Walk into ANY gun or pawn shop openly carrying a gun and see if gun hands don't twitch.

In my area it's the pawn shops where you'll commonly see people walking out with "naked" guns. A couple of them don't even have bags to give you if you ask.

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