Three pitbulls - 6 rounds of .357 or .15 of 9mm?

[roscoe]

OK, some of you may have read the CNN article about the three pitbulls that killed the woman on her front lawn. I don't want this to turn into a dog discussion - rather, the question is whether it would be better to have a higher capacity frearm or one with higher power.

There is a pair of big pitbulls that gets loose periodically in my neighborhood and, although they have shown no agression so far, I typically have a firearm when taking my young children out for a walk, or a run in the jogstroller.

I used to carry a J-frame, primarily as an anti-personell precaution. However, with the big dogs out, I figure I need more firepower. The question is whether six rounds of .357 is enough, assuming you might miss, or hit one only before they are on you. I really have very little fear of any single dog, but with two or more, suddenly the ability to make rapid, controlled shots at low, fast targets becomes paramount.

On the other hand, a machete might be the best weapon.

[DarkKnight01]

Id go with the 9mm.... not that theres anything wrong with a .357, its just dogs are quick.. and of course shot placement scores you extra points :cool:

Id also carry some good pepper spray if you arent already, and perhaps a good fixed blade knife, or even a folder that can be quickly deployed... if it comes to a physical battle with them.. a knife in the lungs or through the neck will be hopefully enough to get the dog(s) to change their mind..

[JohnKSa]

If three big dogs that are used to working together attack you--really attack, not just threaten--you're dead meat. I don't think anything you could carry would get you out of it in one piece unless you got very lucky or were very, very skilled.

On the other hand, if they're just messing around, they might run after the first shot.

IMO, this isn't a scenario I'd prepare for (in terms of picking a carry gun with this in mind) because it's entering the realm of spitting into the wind. If I am unlucky enough to be put into this situation, I'd shoot whatever I had until it was empty and then get my back up against something and see how long I could last with my Cold Steel folder.

If you really want to carry something useful for this situation, pick a big .357 revolver. You can hit them with it after it's empty.

[Alex45ACP]

I'd say 9 rounds of 12 gauge for that situation :what:

But if that ever happened in real life, you better be running for the nearest tree.

[epijunkie67]

If the concern is for a multi attacker senario then I'd go for the 9mm. +p HP, maybe something from Cor-Bon. Like you said, you may miss several times given the speed these animals can attack at and you may need more than one round each to get a full stop. The only way to practice for a low fast moving target I'm aware of when shotgunners have clays thrown along the ground to simulate a fast moving rabbit. I've never tried to hit anything like that with a pistol before but if you did, and got good at it, you'd be ready to kick some dog butt.

[Commissar Gribb]

have you thought about picking a lightsaber as a CCW? :)

[kannonfyre]

A friend of mine who works as a cook was once going home after a workday when he encountered a large and aggressive stray dog in an alleyway that he was using for a shortcut. He tried to back out of the alley in a slow and careful manner but the dog attacked anyway. The mutt jumped up and sank it's teeth into my friend's left forearm just as he was raising it to protect himself.The impact knocked him backwards.

My friend brings his own cooking knives to and from work everyday so even though he was hurting and bleeding, he reached into his bag (which had fallen on the floor along with him), pulled out a carving knife and stabbed the dog through the ribs from right to left. 1 more successive stab and the canine relased it's grip.

I can only assume that the feral dog died (2 DEEP stab woulds to COM).

Till this day, my friend still shows off the stitches and scars from the attack. :uhoh: I don't eat at the restaurant where he works though....not sure if he stills uses THAT knife to cook.

[pete f]

pits are not big dogs but the are not given to going lightly to the next world. I would think an Auto might give you a better chance of popping them when the poop hits the rotating ventilations device. My Father in law once had to put 3 158 gr 357's into a single pissed off and diseased German Shepard on the farm. I would prefer something crew served if there were three sick GS's or rotts.

[Browns Fan]

Hi cap 9mm, hands down, for me. FMJ for max penetration. Always carry at least 1 spare mag.

You really need to report the owner to the police before someone gets hurt!

[DigMe]

Definitely the larger capacity 9mm.

The reason is that I think both of these guns would adequately penetrate on a dog, given that I'll take the higher cap.

brad cook

[Coltdriver]

I have told this story before but it is especially germane to your question.

I was in a national forest to go hunting. Had a small back pack, a rifle on a sling and a 9mm revolver (5 shot) in a holster.

Along come 6 pitbulls. I had my small dog on a leash. We were surrounded by these 6 pitbulls, they were circling around my feet, me, my dog etc.

I pulled the 9mm revolver with the thought that if every shot did not kill at least one dog that I was going to be in trouble. Fat chance of that kind of shooting.

Along comes the owner, sees what is happening, calls off his dogs and all of them obediantly split.

Now while hunting I carry a 9mm Hi Power with a 17 round mag and one in the chamber. I carry nyclads for what that is worth. And a spare mag in my pocket.

[sturmruger]

I would definetly go for the higher capacity. Training for low to the ground fast moving targets is can be a real pain. I would want as many rounds as possible.

[waterhouse]

If you really want to carry something useful for this situation, pick a big .357 revolver. You can hit them with it after it's empty.

I keep thinking of that scene in Snatch. "weight is a sign of reliability, I always go for reliability... and if it doesn't work you can always hit him with it."

anyway I'd go with the higher cap 9mm. and I'd pray I never meet 3 angry dogs.

[Imaginos]

This thread is near and dear to my heart after 3 separate occasions where dogs have come after me and my 3yo when we are walking in our neighborhood.

I found the following news story on FoxNews.com

<Begin Article>
"FoxNews.com 6/3/2004
Dog Owner to Rottweiler: Bite the Mailman!

Maybe a man who wound up behind bars for telling his pet Rottweiler (search) to bite the postman had gotten an unwanted letter that day.

No matter what his motive, Armindo Gomes, 67, was arrested in Bridgeport, Conn., Tuesday and charged with assault and other offenses for commanding his dog to attack a U.S. Postal Service carrier, the Associated Press reported.

An off-duty city cop heard Gomes egging his dog on as the postman was delivering mail just after 2:30 p.m.

"She heard (Gomes) going, 'Sic him, sic him, sic him,'" said Bridgeport police Sgt. Raymond Masek of the officer.

Gomes was charged with second-degree assault, breach of peace and second-degree reckless endangerment.

The mailman, whose name hasn't been released, tried to flee but the Rottweiler scaled a fence and sank its teeth into his leg, according to the Connecticut Post. When the carrier screamed for help, the off-duty policewoman ordered Gomes to call off the dog.

Masek said the officer shot the dog with her service weapon. The dog ran, but was caught nearby. The animal was being treated at a veterinary hospital for a wound to its hindquarters.

Masek said it wasn't clear why Gomes allegedly ordered the dog to go after the carrier.

Police are investigating whether the off-duty officer violated any policies. "
<End Article>

I emailed the Bridgeport PD and asked what their issue load was. The answer was, "Winchester 9mm subsonic Ranger (Law Enforcement Only) ammunition".

Now the important things in this article was:
1) The dog ran off (good thing because he stopped chewing the mailman)
2) The dog ran off (bad thing because the dog was still functional)

I would go with the highest concentration of OC pepper spray I could find in a fogger unit, and back it up with a 357 and some good 125 JHPs.

[wmenorr67]

What policies could the off-duty officer violate?

[DigMe]

Now the important things in this article was:
1) The dog ran off (good thing because he stopped chewing the mailman)
2) The dog ran off (bad thing because the dog was still functional)

I would go with the highest concentration of OC pepper spray I could find in a fogger unit, and back it up with a 357 and some good 125 JHPs.

If you read the article I think it's obvious that the dog lived because he was shot in the hindquarters, not because the officer was using a 9mm. Unless you believe in the myth of "energy dump" then I really don't believe it matters which one you use here as far as amount of damage to the dog per shot...especially when loaded with 147gr subsonics, which have plenty of penetration. With good ammo a 9mm round should have no problem penetrating to vitals and causing blood loss, which is what leads to death. Or if you were able to get the unlikely well-aimed brain shot off it would certainly have no problem penetrating a dog's skull. I've heard accounts of officers shooting multiple rounds of .45 into the torso of a pit bull as the dog continues to charge. Just like people, sometimes a dog is so damn tough and determined that they can keep coming through multiple shots of whatever you shoot at them.

brad cook

[Nitram68]

I love and own both. I would probably take the 9mm if it were loaded with +P or +P+. If not, then I'd probably take the .357.

[Spreadfire Arms]

about 10 years ago i was on a narcotics raid as a sheriff's deputy and two other deputies opened fire on a pit bull. i approached the house on the driver side of a vehicle parked in the driveway, they approached on the passenger side. a pit bull ran out of the house in question and charged them (i didn't see it). one fired three rounds of 9mm, the other deputy fired three rounds of 9mm. the dog turned around, ran back into the house, and died in the bathroom.

the round used was a Winchester 9mm 147 gr. subsonic HP. don't ask me why the dept was issuing subsonic in duty sidearms (S&W 5906's).

didn't appear to be a very effective round.

[DigMe]

The Winchester Ranger 147 gr subsonic is among the top 9mm rounds out there.

I don't know that you were using the Ranger and it's superior to the other Winchester 9mm offerings.

brad cook

[IlikeSA]

All I can say about single dogs making problems is "taser"... :evil:

[Missourigunner]

Remington 870, with 00 Buckshot and you might have a chance. Other than that, I don't think you are going to stop 3 Pitbulls attacking you.

[Spreadfire Arms]

they were not Rangers.......regular JHP 147 gr. in a silver "SUBSONIC" box. nothing remotely close to an SXT bullet.

[RandyB]

I think either would work fine. Personally I tend to carry my .357 more since I shoot it more accurately than my 9mm, but with proper ammo both would work.
The 9mm has a few advantages:
1. more shots
2. easier/faster to reload

the .357:
1. Six for sure
2. will more likely shoot and not jam if a contact shot was made

Both are powerful enough to put a bullet into the vitals on a dog. I'd opt for some OC pepper spray and a good knife too! Of course when I hike I have a custom made laminated hiking staff that would be good medicine for a dog that wants to treat me like a milkbone.

[ronbwolf]

Why not go with 15 .40 S&W. We had a shooting recently, large Rott vs. 165 gr. Win. SXT, one shot, one stop. BTW the shooter is very good, and that helped.

Both the .357, and 9mm shoot the same size bullet, the only difference is capacity, more is better, "You can't be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammunition." IMHO

[Hardware]

I own pit bulldogs and run a pit bull forum for pet owners (not dogfighters). Pits are not big dogs, 65 pounds max and knee high to a man. Anybody tells you different they are showing you a mix breed or selling you a load of shinola. I could go into dog psychology and socialization but suffice it to say you have a situation where three medium sized dogs are coming for you. IF you are cool enough to connect with a contact shot then any caliber will do the job. Do NOT carry FMJs. FMJ was specified in the Geneva convention agreements for military use because it carves neat little channels through a body without fragmentation. You want as big a hole in the critter you can get without being concerned with over penetration.

I'd go for the 9 with JHPs. A good knife would be a good bet. Less offensive options such as pepper spray or cattle prods will look good to the authorities. Here's a free tip; if the dog has a bite on something or someone you want them to quit from, kick them as hard as you can at the base of the jaw. Another free tip, identify the leader of the pack and dispatch them first. Dogs will generally wait until the lead attacks, it's a socialization thing. Once the leader is down the other dogs may retreat. Hitting a game pit bulldog with a stick is like trying to teach pigs to fly. You just waste your time and annoy the pig. There's a special tool called a parting stick that is used by old time dog men to break up dogs in a fight. Trouble is it takes a man with a parting stick for each dog. The stick has to be inserted in between the teeth of the dog and twisted, forcing the jaws apart. Not something you want to learn on the fly.

One last word; one of his books Massad Ayoob advocates grabbing an attacking dog by the flews, the long hanging upper lips some dogs have. I wouldn't advise this. A miss will basically give the dog your throat.

[Horsesense]

If you are faced with three pit bulls, a high capacity mag is the way to go, lead the dog, like you were shooting clay pigeons and use plenty of ammo. Remember to draw the gun in to your body and offer your week arm, if you see that you are going to get bit, you don’t want the dog to get hold of your gun arm, as soon as the dog takes your arm, shoot it in between the eyes than shoot the one that has you leg etc. If you go down, roll, this is to keep the dog from getting a foothold and holding you down while the others get hold.


If a dog jumps for your throat raise your knee and drive it into his chest (I have done this and it knocked the wind out of the dog) , then shoot it before it gets back up.

PS:I'm no expert but this seems to be the thing to do.

[roscoe]

A good knife would be a good bet.

I also carry a 7" Becker knife in the jogstroller, but have been thinking about Cabela's slimline machete. It seems like it might be the ticket once they are in close.

http://cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jhtml?id=0016445515631a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnString=hasJS=true&_D%3AhasJS=+&QueryText=machete&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jhtml.22&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=machete&noImage=0&returnPage=search-results1.jhtml
http://a1460.g.akamai.net/f/1460/1339/6h/www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/Item/51/56/31/i515631sq01.jpg

[DelayedReaction]

Why not 14 rounds of .45 in a double-stack 1911?

[akviper]

Thanks for the info Hardware. This is the best advice I've ever heard and will be passing it on to my department tomorrow. I once saw a training video that had been shot supposedly by a drug dealer of a pit bull clamped onto another dog's throat. Someone approaches the pit bull from the rear and cuts off a hind leg with a large pair of boltcutters. The pit bull reacts by clamping down harder and shaking the dying dog. OC and a knife are better than nothing but distance and a large caliber would be best.

[XD40Assassin]

Sawed off shotty anyone? Two dogs with one shell? lol

[Sir Aardvark]

None of the above.

If not a shotgun, then an 8-shot Desert Eagle in .44 magnum loaded with Federal's 300 grain hunting bullets.

[justashooter]

definitely a sawed shotty pump. shorten the butt stock to about 8 " pull, the bbls to 18+, and get 35" of fun. load with # 2 goose high speed, and walk with impunity.

[crashresidue]

I think I'm gonna stay out of this one!

I must smell like a dog - 'cause even the attack trained one have a problem with me!

cr

[The_Antibubba]

This is a tough one. While I like the idea of a high-capacity magazine (cuz there ain't gonna be time for a reload!), I'm also concerned about the ways a semiauto can fail when fired at contact. Will the slide go back properly? Will the case eject? Will a new round load? A revolver may have capacity limitations, but if you pull the trigger, it WILL fire.

[foghornl]

My choice is 8 of .45ACP...230-Gr Golden Sabres from a 5" 1911-A1.

[happy old sailor]

bear spray. put a cloud of this between you and the critters. they run into it, and having olfactories several thousand times greater than you, will not be as eager for you if you seem to smell like that. bear spray may/may not work on bears, but it sure works on humans and lesser animals (dogs). carry this in a hand, not on a belt unless you can get it out and going quick time. hopefully your critter will be downwind. dark parking lot, going to vehicle, bear spray. this stuff is not cheap as some sprays, but get what you pay for. it also has more range than others. other than a 12 guage, i would rather have this than my G17 with corbons and i have much faith in the hail of lead it will deliver. at one time i had a pit. one of the best dogs i have had. brave, tough, and very quick, several of her would be a fright to deal with. also, spray puts put a big pattern, which would be important

[357wheelgunner]

I would definately go for the .357 and a good knife. I have great control of my nerves under stress (know from experience) and I would want my hits to count. I'd much rather be shooting a 158 grain .357 JHP @ 1250 fps than a 124 gr. 9mm @1250. Besides if you really think you can get off more than 1 or 2 shots before a dog runs you down you have never seen a pissed off dog chase something. I would fire as many CAREFUL shots as I could, then draw my benchmade and start to pray. Or....when you see the dogs coming shoot them before they are right on you, or run up a tree.

I had a large rotwieler follow me across my college campus. It really pissed me off because there was a glock 31 in the car 200 yards away, and people laughed at me instead of calling 911. The dog followed me growling all the way across campus to the door of my class. I was walking backwards with a benchmade in my hand the whole way. I called the police and literally 6 hours later they came to get the dogs. Someone could've been mauled.

I read an article about a South American man who had a leapord gnawing on his forearm. He calmly drew his pocket knife and cut both its throat and its jaw muscles. He gets a "toughguy" award.....

[sacp81170a]

There is a pair of big pitbulls that gets loose periodically in my neighborhood

(JOKINGLY)Anybody remember the old Saturday Night Live bit about Dog Assassins? :evil: The guys working animal control around the base in Riyahd back in '83 (I was there TDY, security for the AWACS out of Tinker) used pure nicotine darts out of a tranquilizer gun. One hit anywhere on the feral dog and it was all over but the twitchin'. Took maybe ten seconds. Advantages: stealth, very little evidence if you recover the dart, you won't get slapped with charges for discharging a firearm and you'll be safer by choosing the time and place. Disadvantages: you might get sued by the owner if you're found out. Here's a link (WARNING: Large .pdf download) (http://www.wildpharm.com/common/pdf/pd_rifles2.pdf ) (/JOKINGLY)

If the owner is careless enough to let a pair of pitbulls get loose to roam the neighborhood, he or she is too careless to own a dog. :cuss: Seriously, I'd call animal control the next time you see 'em roaming loose. Establish a pattern of the dogs being out of the control of their owner in police reports and you'll be on much firmer legal ground if you are forced to take action. Then, take 'em out with your .17 HMR from 50 yards. :evil: Tell the cops you were afraid they were after your kids.

Oh, and by the way, I'm a sucker for stray animals. Both my dogs and all three cats were picked up roaming stray around whatever neighborhood I happened to be living in at the time, so all you PETA heads out there can cool out. I love animals: it's just that I love people more (well, some people :D ). I have killed strays that I considered to be dangerous in the past and I *will* do it again in the future if I feel a human being is threatened in the least.

Use what works, but use it far enough away that it'll do you some good.

YMMV. IANAL. DDTAH. All the usual disclaimers.

Jack

[one-shot-one]

decided to save a few $ by puting down a lab that was sick (peeing blood, could barely walk).
used a .357 out of a 4" rev. from 4' away, was afraid i'd miss his head so whike he was laying on his side put a 158 grn. thru his ribs right behind the shoulder he quickly tried to get up, i had to put 2 more into him to stop him and he could barely walk before.
so #1 your going to get bit unless your really lucky. if you spray 9mm around it will do even less.
if you hit the brain you will stop them. can you hit three tenis ball size targets that are travleing at you at 25 mph?
out of choices given .357 and 1st shot at near contact distance and work you way back. oh yea did i say you are going to get bite?
ps. spend the $ to have pet put down it was not a pleasent exp.

[JohnKSa]

it was not a pleasent expDone it with and without the vet--neither is pleasant. Sorry you had to go through that.

[Too Many Choices!?]

Dogs,for the most part, are small. You have a good chance of any hit either breaking bones or tearing up enough muscle to take the fight out of them. Hitting is the key :uhoh: !

[Horsesense]

“used a .357 out of a 4" rev. from 4' away, was afraid i'd miss his head so whike he was laying on his side put a 158 grn. thru his ribs right behind the shoulder he quickly tried to get up, i had to put 2 more into him to stop him and he could barely walk before.”

Sounds like you missed the heart. Find a friendly dog and find the heartbeat for future reference.

What kind of ammo did you use? I ask because using a heavy JHP out of a .357 could be not much better than using ball ammo on a dog or cat. I am “pro penetration” but on a small animal you need rapid expansion in order to get a chance at catching an artery etc.

A poorly designed round for humans could be far better on a dog and visa versa.

[Balog]

I'd go with a revo, mainly because any shots are likely to be contact shots as the doggie is chewing on you. A knife would be good as well. I'd also go with a large, sturdy doggie of me own to hold the little bastards off while I shot them.

Reminds me of the time 2 dobermans and a medium size mutt attacked my brothers. We lived in an uber rural area, and packs of freal dogs were a big problem. Our dog (a mix of pitbull and Irish Setter as near as we could figure) threw one dobie through a cattle fence and mauled the other. The mutt took off. If old King hadn't been with em, both of my brothers would have prolly been dead or badly injured. A dog is a dog who can hold his own in a fight is a good thing to have if you ever get attacked by another dog or dogs.

[Gun God]

3 pitbulls? DAMN!

6 357's or 15 9mm's.....niether. How about a MAC-10 with HP .45's. That'll do the trick. You get a 32 round magazine too. :)

[Buzztail]

Not to sound like a doubting thomas, but I own pitbulls, and have owned and hunted with them since I was about nine years old (I'm 34 now) There have been scant few years I did NOT own at least one one of these fine animals. I have five as I write this. That being said, I feel like three pitbulls together are more of a threat to each other than they'll ever be to you. These dogs are bred to do combat with each other (I DO NOT PARTAKE IN ANY SUCH EVENT) and not with man. I am in the process of purchasing a gaurd dog for my dogs, as they are people friendly to the point of trotting away with you if you just ask them to. That is the temperment that they are bred for.

Now on to the question at hand. Few if any firearms are going to do you any good with most dog med/large breeds in any number at the kind of ranges you'd encounter them. Carry enough gun and use it wisely. A 9mm would not be my first chioce to stop one of these dogs in a prey drive mode.

[Browns Fan]

To supplement what I said earlier, each additional dog in the attack is gonna increase your pucker factor exponentially, thereby making controlled, accurate hits unlikely.

[JeepDriver]

High cap 9mm

I personally don't feel comfortable with less then 13 rounds (12+1 is my personal minium)in a carry gun. Some accuse me over kill, but I don't ever want to run out of ammo.

In that situtation I think I want my G34 with a 24 rds (17rd mag and a +6 base and 1 in the chamber)

[KarbineKrazy]

If it was me...

G23, big CRKT knife... And a good dog.

I have a 6 year old German Short hair. Great dog. He's a big one too, weighs about 75 lbs. One of the toughest dogs I've ever had. I don't think he'd have any trouble.

PS- He was even tougher when he had his testicles, but he was way to aggressive to my other dogs so they got removed!

[Mr Bangdango]

ronbwolf said "Both the .357, and 9mm shoot the same size bullet, the only difference is capacity, more is better, "You can't be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammunition." IMHO"

That's almost funny. I'd take a heavy hitting (both when fired and when used as a club) .357magnum and this selection comes from experiance. A couple years ago a friend and I went to shoot on some private property that the owned rarely visited (we had permission). It had some old cars and what not there and 4 dogs hanging around. At first we didn't pay them much mind as when we started shooting (at targets) they ran off. But, when we stopped to go poking around the abandoned cars they came back. Two of them decided to come closer and were acting agressive so I opened up on one with a GP100 loaded with some 125gr .357mags and it took 2 hits to put it down. One hit it in the chest and the other in the left shoulder. It wandered about 10 feet before it fell. My buddy shot the other with a Glock 17. He unloaded on it. Most of his rounds missed but he got 3 hits I know of. It ran off and probably died somewhere. We tried to find it but it had run off into the woods and we couldn't find it. The other two dogs ran off when we started shooting and didn't come back. Both of the dogs we shot were some kind of mixed breeds and his target was smaller. To this day he claims that's why he had so many misses. LOL

[Azrael256]

I'm thinking something in a Mk19, preferably canister shot, and a flamethrower just in case.

But seriously, we had a neighbor who raised pits. After one attacked my grandfather, the dog catcher came to get them. He used an ax handle. Nothing more. All five dogs knew just exactly what that stick was, and backed off. I'll bet you'll find that all vicious dogs have a great fear of objects like that. The owners who made then vicious probably beat them with something similar.

[Konall]

I second the Bear Spray. With the highest concentration of OC you can find.

It is hearsay from over a dozen years ago, but a friend of mine got the no-????-there-I-was story from one of his classmates in the police academy. Apparently the wonder-9 did nothing to stop a dog pack, but the bear spray sent them all running.

[DigMe]

It wandered about 10 feet before it fell. My buddy shot the other with a Glock 17. He unloaded on it. Most of his rounds missed but he got 3 hits I know of. It ran off and probably died somewhere. We tried to find it but it had run off into the woods and we couldn't find it.


Sounds like conclusive evidence to me. :rolleyes:

brad cook

[NikoFoxFire]

Now theres a whole lot of adiue about high technology weaponry, and subsonic bullets and a whole fare of acronyms I haven't the faintest idea of the meaning to. One quote I did understand...

"Why not 14 rounds of .45 in a double-stack 1911?"

I concur. Call me old fashion, but I don't care how many legs you walk on, to walk into 3 forty-five bullets is to walk into a brick wall of hurt. Go with whatever you can hit once with, dont bother with the big sticks. You don't need a sonic boom, a regular one will do just fine :). As far as mad dogs go, dogs aren't like humans. They don't use cover, they don't understand the concept of firearms at all. They will sit there (probably bristling and snarling and such) and THEN they will run straight at you. All my experiences as a guy who works with animals make me think you're in no danger, armed or not... but hey, better safe than kibble?

[Cosmoline]

If three big dogs that are used to working together attack you--really attack, not just threaten--you're dead meat.

Yup. Thankfully most of the time dogs are bluffing. They look for sucker bites on the leg and buttocks.

But when they're NOT bluffing most people have NO IDEA what they're able to do. I've had the pleasure of getting hit in a bite suit many times, and it's quite an experience. There's no way I'd be able to move fast enough to get more than one shot off if I was lucky. To give an example, I had an experience a few weeks ago where I was marking trees for a new clearing on the far side of my property. I came back in through some overgrown area and the dog on patrol didn't recognize me right away. She's a 75 lb. GSD. I heard no barking or movement until I saw something flying out of the bushes about three feet to my left. I turned to see my dog at chest level, flying in for the kill. Thankfully she recognized me and I got kissed instead of killed But there's no way I would have been able to defend against that attack. I've seen these dogs take punishment that would cripple a man and keep on going. When their blood is up they don't seem to feel pain. I would not bet on any amount of firepower short of a magnum slug against a determined attack dog.

[Sharpdogs]

A few weeks ago my wife and I were walking our dogs (German Shepherd and a Boston Terrier/Pit mix). Both were on leashes. We rounded the corner and some idiot had tied a German Shepherd/Rottie to their front porch with a long lead. In a blink of an eye the GSD/Rottie charged us. It happened so fast that all we were able to do was pull our dogs back to avoid them from getting bit. Through the grace of God the GSD/Rottie missed biting any of use by a few inches. Even if I was carrying a firearm (no CCW in NJ) there never would have been time to use it, unless it was already in my hand. I recommend a simple walking stick that is in your hand and can be used within a moments notice. Check out Cold Steel's city stick, walk about or Newt Livesays WA-1 sticks. As for three dogs attacking, I would throw them some prime rib and slowly back away.

[DT Guy]

The only 'sure' instantaneous kill on a dog, like on most other animals, requires a CNS shot. This is complicated by the fact that a dog's head is heavily 'chined', or angled, and will often deflect a heavy caliber bullet at close range.

Body shots are iffy, simply because dogs (well, the dogs we're talking about here) have the enviable combination of natural tenacity derived from pack hunting and an athlete's physiology.

The best odds come from spinal cord shots (not easy) and inferior head shots-from the bottom up, in other words. If you can get the dog to jump for a raised arm, these are possible, although you'll have ~.10 of a second to do it right. :D

I have actually had success on two occasions with drawing and presenting my handgun and yelling 'stop.' If dogs can sense fear, they can also sense confidence, and although they didn't know what that thing in my hand was, I think they understood I was about to hurt them with it.

I agree-best bet is to report the dogs NOW, before someone (maybe a neighbor who won't be armed) gets attacked.


Larry