So ashamed....my own brother is a sheep.


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itgoesboom
April 25, 2005, 02:46 PM
Went to visit family in a less than free state this last weekend, and while there had a conversation with my brother regarding firearms. I felt so ashamed to find that he feels that CHLs should only be valid in your town or county, basically telling me that he is glad that his state didn't recognize my CHL.

I tried to get his logic, but it just wasn't there. And this is just so odd.

We grew up in the same house, shooting BB guns in the back yard, trap shooting with our step-dad, using our .22lr rifle whenever we got the chance. We were both introduced to firearms at a young age, and taught firearm safety, both got our Boy Scout merit badges in rifle and shotgun shooting when we were kids. His wifes dad is a former police officer who sounds like a real gunny, and my brother has a lot of respect for him. He has been wanting to pick up a shotgun for the last several years, but just never gets around it.

But he is a sheep.

He just bought a $1million + house, drives a porsche, has lots of expensive items in his house, and has no way to protect any of it.

He believes that there should be a waiting period for all firearm purchases, including pistols (wonder how he will feel if his neighbors start getting robbed, and he is told he has to wait 10 days to pickup his new pistol), has no problem with restricting how many guns you can own (why do you need so many guns? I responded with why do you need a porsche?).

How is it that my wife, who had barely been around a firearm in her life until meeting me, never thought she would have one in the house, and is from a family that never owned firearms can accept and encourage (to a small degree) my ownership of firearms, and having a concealed handgun license, but my own brother who had the same upbringing, around firearms, thinks like he does?

I.G.B.

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mrhuckins
April 25, 2005, 02:59 PM
People who are afraid of firearms just don't get it. Until someone visits violence upon them or their families, and they find out how little the police can do to protect them. I would much rather take immiedate action in a life threatening situation, than to rely upon the possibility of the police/law/government to catch a villian and give him life in prison. Law abiding citizens who carry guns are not the problem. Its the BG out there with guns that is the real problem, if your brother can't see that, then there is probably little you can do to convince him. Take heart in the belief that YOU are doing the right thing to protect you and yours. Hopefully your brother will come around before he finds out just how little the LEO's can do to protect law abiding citizens. In the meantime, just try to set the example for your brother and be a responsible gun owner.

boofus
April 25, 2005, 03:02 PM
Disown him! He has brought dishonor to your family's name. He is to never set foot in your dojo again!
:neener:

Vernal45
April 25, 2005, 03:04 PM
My little brother is the same way. Tell yours what I told mine. " YOU were raised around guns, you know how to use them. "If you choose not to protect yourself, your home and your family, dont cry when, and I hope it never happens, but I dont want to hear you crying when someone visits you with violence in mind."

sturmruger
April 25, 2005, 03:05 PM
IGB it sounds like you need to get him out to the range someday. I have turned many of my liberal friends to our side by a nice day at the range. Your brother should be even easier to persuade if he has a background in firearms.

spacemanspiff
April 25, 2005, 03:07 PM
mine too.... he has a pistol and a shotgun, but won't carry. he doesnt want to be around me because i carry chambered. i'm pretty sure its his girlfriend that put some ideas in his head that i posed a danger to him and his kids.

he went on some powertrip insisting i unchamber. i refused, and ever since then we dont hang out much. in the two years, i have been to his place 4 times. he has come to my place, once. i have run into him over at our mothers home maybe 3 times.

then again, we've never really been a close family.

38SnubFan
April 25, 2005, 03:09 PM
Just bring him the cold, hard facts: Law-abiding gun owners don't commit crimes, and the majority of guns used in crimes are not legally obtained.

So, how is placing waiting periods/more CHL restrictions going to solve any of his so-called "problems" with guns/gun owners?

Better idea yet: Take him to the range. Set up a target (preferably the NYPD-style target with the BG pointing a gun at you). Put the gun in his hand and tell him that the thug he's facing is about to rob him, rape his wife, and kidnap his children.

He might suprisingly put some accurate shots down! :D

-38SnubFan

Nitram68
April 25, 2005, 03:22 PM
Sorry to see that. Keep on him. In the end logic is on our side. Remember, the 2nd amendment isn't about hunting or sporting. It's the fail safe, last resort option to remaining free in our country.

dolanp
April 25, 2005, 03:24 PM
He just bought a $1million + house, drives a porsche, has lots of expensive items in his house, and has no way to protect any of it.

Well there's the problem. He has no reason not to be in condition white permanently since he is quite taken care of.

The mere sight of a gun at this point probably reminds him that there are unsavory people in the world and he doesn't want to think about such terrible things.

Husker1911
April 25, 2005, 03:54 PM
What exactly is your brother's address? :evil:

Just kidding, but here's a point where he should stand by his convictions and post a "gun-free household" sign in his yard.

Bear Gulch
April 25, 2005, 04:03 PM
Tell him what they do to sheep in Montana and he'll want a gun after that. :evil:

cliffy109
April 25, 2005, 04:13 PM
Strange. Most sheep are ignorant. It sounds like your bro isn't ignorant. He was brought up with guns, has been shooting and understands safety, yet he chooses to be a sheep. That's unfortunate and indicates that he is either in a complete state of denial or just isn't too bright. Based on the fact that he can afford the house and car, I'd guess he isn't stupid. That means he's created a fairytale world in his mind where he doesn't need guns. Sad.

Bulldozer
April 25, 2005, 04:20 PM
My wife was a sheeple, until she met me. She still does not like guns, but she has at least learned to handle a revolver. She has accepted that I CCW EVERY time I leave my property.

People build a coccoon of dreams around themselves and wrap themselves in the cloak of denial. I didn't think it could happen to me is a common refrain that comes from many victims' throats. Those lucky enough to survive.

Those of us lucky enough to survive an armed encounter know better and make plans for such eventualities.

itgoesboom
April 25, 2005, 04:26 PM
38snubfan, Just bring him the cold, hard facts: Law-abiding gun owners don't commit crimes, and the majority of guns used in crimes are not legally obtained.

I did that. Told him about the studies that multiple states had done that showed CHL holders were less likely to commit violent crime that even police officers. His reponse? "Very Possible." I told him not just possible, that it is a statistical fact. Didn't sway him.

Here is the other thing. If something were to happen, I don't think that the Police could get to his house in under 15 minutes. There is no police presence at all in his development, since it is a private gated community and the police aren't even allowed to pull over speeders there. :banghead: And talk about a target rich environment. A couple hundred homes that cost more than $1million each, and some are significantly higher than that, and no police presence.

His house could easily be protected against burglers and such, but without that protection, his house is easy pickings; backyard with lots of privacy, big open windows, cheap locks and latches and no dog.

He ofcourse thinks the gates protect him, but he doesn't think about all those rich kids that have nothing to do, and no punishment for getting caught. He should know better, we grew up around all the rich kids that were always causing trouble.

He and I aren't very close, we see each other maybe once a year, and might talk once or twice more, maybe. Even my own mother thinks I should take him out to a firing range, and she is not exactly a gunny. Unfortunatly, in the last 5 years he hasn't visited me even once, and I don't suspect that will change much in the future, so getting him to the range might be a little tough, especially since my rifles aren't even legal in his state.

Thanks everyone for listening to my frustrations. My brother, as hard headed as he is is probably a lost cause quite honestly. He especially won't take any advice from his little brother :rolleyes: no matter how logical.

I.G.B.

P95Carry
April 25, 2005, 04:57 PM
These and similar cases never fail to exasperate and frustrate me. Mostly I guess because there seems an impossible divide - which is driven by ignorance and also this crazy ''gun fear'' deal. He doesn't want to be around me because I carry chambered This mention of Spiffy's is another typical stance -- ''OMG - OMG - the gun - it's LOADED'' .... like it's a bomb on a short fuze. Sheesh.

I guess ultimately we have to just accept these folks and move on - but here, where it is a bro who has gun training and some experience - it is hard to fully see the mind set. I wonder if he would go so far as to place a ''this is a gun free zone'' notice at front end of his driveway!

Mulliga
April 25, 2005, 04:59 PM
That's unfortunate, IGB.

Does your brother have kids? Perhaps some irrational fear of mixing kids and guns is the problem?

Since your brother shot a bit when he was a kid, I doubt taking him to the range would do anything.

Many, many people (my parents included :( ) live in condition white their whole lives. So don't feel too bad...

Henry Bowman
April 25, 2005, 05:05 PM
People build a coccoon of dreams around themselves and wrap themselves in the cloak of denial. I didn't think it could happen to me is a common refrain that comes from many victims' throats. Those lucky enough to survive. Statistically, it's not going to happen to him, or me, or you. In all likelihood well will never need to use lethal force to protect anyone.

But, if it does happen to you, if you do need it...

Statistically, no one will ever win the lottery. Yet millions buy tickets and someone (among those ticket buyers) eventually does win it.

itgoesboom
April 25, 2005, 05:07 PM
Mulliga,

Nope, no kids, and he is unlikely to have any. Trust me on that, he won't get within 15 feet of any kids, even if they are related to him. He is probably even more irrational about that then the guns.

And it's not his wife that is causing this either. She grew up around firearms, and by all accounts has no problem with him getting guns. Like I mentioned above, her dad is a retired LEO and from all accounts is a gunny, reloads and shoots quite a bit.

I.G.B.

XLMiguel
April 25, 2005, 05:11 PM
You might try pointing out that [legal] gun ownership is up, and crime is down. If guns cause crime, how can this be?

Also direct him to the CDC website and to the study they did about 18 mos. ago that showed of the 51 'gun control laws' studied, including waiting periods, none had any effect on crime.

Further, point out that the police have no legal obligation to protect an individual, that they don't have to come when called, and there's nothing one can do about it. Your safety is your responsibility, pure and simple.

If he still doesn't get it, rub his nose in how little he must care for his family that he won't take care to have the means to protect them. Maybe he doesn't have to have a gun, but he does need a plan, a Louisville slugger, good locks, lights, an alarm system, maybe a dog -

None are so blind as he who will not see :eek:

Systema218
April 25, 2005, 05:41 PM
He especially won't take any advice from his little brother no matter how logical.

Well, I'm sure that's part of it. I've got an older sister who will never concede a point of any kind to me, her younger brother. It's amazing how childhood experiences and perceptions can continue to control some adults' views on life, no matter how much conditions have changed.

One thing I found out with my sister when I was having a similar discussion with her, was that there was a time in her life she was quite depressed and suicidal. She essentially holds onto the view that if she'd had a handgun in her possession at the time she'd have ended her life with it. And now, on the basis of that fearful thought, she wants to outlaw handgun possession except for police and military.

No logic, but a lot of emotion. It makes sense in a kind of twisted way though... not that I agree with it, but even a nut makes a nutty kind of sense if you listen enough. I told my sister that even in her most suicidal state she always had access to steak knives, scissors, automobiles and the like, and managed not to kill herself with any of those objects. Why would she think she'd have used a gun if she had had owned one?

She couldn't quite answer me on that, but that still didn't change her position.

Standing Wolf
April 25, 2005, 05:51 PM
He just bought a $1million + house, drives a porsche, has lots of expensive items in his house, and has no way to protect any of it.

For his sake, I hope he wises up the easy way rather than the hard way. There's nothing like a shortage of predators wandering around on the loose.

That saidâ„¢, it's his life.

Chrontius
April 25, 2005, 06:04 PM
Disown him! He has brought dishonor to your family's name. He is to never set foot in your dojo again!

Not even funny, Boofus.


'Round here, whenever I bring up something genuinely interesting, my parents' reaction is 'only if you want off the will.' Firearms, motorcycles, skydiving... I'm lucky that I never brought up rollercoasters when they were feeling pissy. It's thanks to that sort of attitude that I'm going to be working long and hard to get a CCW without alienating a large portion of the people I care about from me and eachother.

Edit: On the other hand, they don't have a problem with me building high-powered aircannons (hurricane cleanup), axe throwing, or paying for swordfighting lessons.

DFBonnett
April 25, 2005, 06:25 PM
So ashamed....my own brother is a sheep.

You have siblings because your parents were on good terms more than once. Not your fault. Put away the hair shirt.

loose cannon
April 25, 2005, 06:41 PM
he got the stupid gene you didnt praise god!

the ignorent you can educate,you cant fix stupid.

Randy in Arizona
April 25, 2005, 08:19 PM
itgoesboom - - But he is a sheep.

Best sum up of the situation goes to:
loose cannon - - the ignorent you can educate, you cant fix stupid.

Backed up by:
[/QUOTE]itgoesboom - - Nope, no kids, and he is unlikely to have any. Trust me on that, he won't get within 15 feet of any kids, even if they are related to him. He is probably even more irrational about that then the guns. [QUOTE]

[Sigmund Freud mode on]
This shows that he is selfish, egocentric, and can not foresee that anything might occur that he does not want to occur. He cares not for posterity or the future, for when he dies, they cease to exist.
Sad that he does not love his wife enough to want to protect her, but she can get her own gun. (She just should not mention it to him.)
[Sigmund Freud mode off]


Best action you can take at this point:
Pray for him to be enlightened without fatal consequences to either him or his wife.
:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

Zedicus
April 25, 2005, 08:26 PM
No big deal dude, I have relatives who make your bro look like Rambo..... :banghead:

torpid
April 25, 2005, 11:18 PM
Chrontius:
'Round here, whenever I bring up something genuinely interesting, my parents' reaction is 'only if you want off the will.' Firearms, motorcycles, skydiving... I'm lucky that I never brought up rollercoasters when they were feeling pissy.


So be it. :rolleyes:

I'd just live my life like I wanted and cheerfully say that it was okay to cut me from the will, as I loved them- and not their material posessions.

They can't own your life unless you let them (or are still a minor).

sm
April 25, 2005, 11:42 PM
There are folks that share the same last name as I, naturally the sister's changed when she married.

Now the person that sired me and 3 others, spent 35 yrs in the Nat'l Guard, He sired another boy when I was 21- that one stole and sold all the guns for dope - including MY first Revolver.

I paid for the CCW class and license for a brother. I found him a heckuva deal on a Security Six. He never sent in the paper work, used the license money toward getting his home A/C fixed. All his FILs guns ( passed now) the Security Six and the 870 I bought him...are in a safe. "Someday" he says he will show his kids the guns Grandpa left to them...one is 12 the other 7 - they have not seen these yet. Have not been out plinking. Only Saving thought is - the SIL and the nephew do play paintball together...

The fella that sired me, had an incident not long ago - "911 took forever ...we were all afraid..."

Now back in the Fall of '04 an incident occured over at our mom's, that mom of my other nieces and nephews...well I had a talk with kids when the BG came into the yard. I handled the situation.

These folks walked away from me - I tried, I spent monies and time. Not to mention I did NOT raise them to be stupid.

I don't have time for stupid people. I don't care if they are by definition "family" - they made the choices - not me.

Oh they have called when things needed an answer. I got burned - more than once "doing the right thing" in the past...somehow I am the one they blamed...and treated wrong...

I walked away. I made an exception being as who they were "supposed" to be.

"Nobody believes anything will happen to them - folks always think it will be the "other guy". One has to hit their own bottom, sometimes it is another person that hits this bottom that changes minds, sometimes it is not - and that person is dead.

Dead is forever.

Now I have said my piece, I raised you folks, and in the case of the "dad" you were raised better, trained better, disciplined better for 35 years. Something happens , and you don't end up dead - don't call me. You will have to either remember what learned and shared either by Uncle Sam, or as I raised you.

I'd rather use my energies assisting folks taking responsiblilties for themselves, and folks dear to them.

I ain't got time for stupid people."

P95Carry
April 25, 2005, 11:47 PM
I ain't got time for stupid people." That Steve is where I am - over the years it has become ever more apparent. Stupids do not want help - at least, unless you can can do everything for them - so they don't have to bother. :rolleyes:

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