[Bud Light]

Greetings there maybe good links to answer my question as this subject may have been covered to death. I'm looking for a .357 magnum defensive round for my 4" 686 with moderate velocity and on the heavier side grain wise but am unsure of which one. I know from past discussions that the Speer GD 158gr. was not necessarily intended for self defense. I was considering the 158gr Hydra Shok or the Winchester Silver Tip 145 gr. Though I would prefer bonded and am not sure if either of those are.

[Lone Star]

A Speer spokesman told me that the 158 Gold Dot is indeed not meant for defense against humans. It should fare well against large soft-skinned animals at attacking distances. (Bear, cougar, leopard, feral dogs, and hyenas.)

The Hydra-Shok is intended for quicker expansion than most 158's, and will still hold together and penetrate. A Federal spokesman told me that it makes a fine deer load for when a .357 is suitable for deer. (Within 50 or so yards, with excellent shot placement.) Remington's JHP probably would work, too, and has been very accurate in my .357's. Ditto for Federal's Classic round.

Lone Star

[roo_ster]

I shoot Winchester 180gr fodder out of my Taurus 651 snubby. It uses a Nosler Partition hollow point & is considered "hunting" ammo.

I can not vouch for its effectiveness vs two-legged predators, but it shoots to point of aim and is stinkin' accurate. (I had trouble finding a round where POA~POI & had to go off hte beaten path.)

I, too, have a S&W 686 4". The Winny 180gr is easier on the shooter than a full-house 158gr or 125gr cartridge.

My tale:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=119364&highlight=taurus

Good luck finding the right solution for you.

[Magnum88C]

I pack the 158-gr Hydra-Shok. Excellent round, and extremely accurate.

[Ben Shepherd]

Relative penetration preformance (out of my brain, as I foolishly didn't write things down in detail):

Penetration deepest to the most shallow(1 being deepest):
1. 158 hornady XTP
2. 158 speer GDHP
3. 158 federal hydra-shock
4. 140 cor-bon
5. 145 winchester silver tip

As for exact depth I don't know, I was unscientifically grading them "on the curve" in soaked phone books. The first three were a classic mushroom, with similar depth(within 2" or so), while the cor-bon and silvertip were substantially more shallow and much more, um, "explosive"(not much left to mushroom, but a heck of a lot of damage.).

[bpisler]

I too like a heavy bullet load to
carry in my 3" 65-3.I tried them
all and went with the PMC 150gr
starfire 357 mag.It's very
accurate and shots to POA at 15
yards.Recoil,muzzle flash/blast
seem to be less than the others.
I would buy various brands,shoot
them up and see which works best
for you,good luck.

[DHart]

I believe in penetration above all else, with expansion if you can get it along with your penetration. You never know when your bullets may have to pass through an arm or two, possibly a heavy leather coat, wool coat, layers of denim, etc. before they even get to the possible layer upon layer of fat and muscle, and then, finally, perhaps have an opportunity to tear into some deep vital organs or spinal column. I suspect that most hollowpoints would have a bit of a tough time dealing with all of that... especially the light weight ones. Though the 158's look good in that regard.

While 158 gr Gold Dot is a good load for light game, like small deer and smaller animals, I feel very confident in it as a personal defense round, especially during cold months when people are likely to be heavily clothed. And a great many Americans are heavily built (over fed?) as well.

The 158 gr. HydraShok sounds like a goodie, but I haven't tried any. I do often carry Winchester's 145 gr. Silvertip.. especially during hot months when people wear very little in the way of clothing. As far as I'm concerned, any .357 load with a bullet lighter than 145 gr. is out of consideration for me.

Soon Speer will be releasing their announced 135 gr. .357 "SB" (for short-barrel) Gold Dot load. It's likely to have a cavernous hollow point which will certainly expand reliably at moderate to low .357 velocities... as one might expect from a 2" .357 snubby. I wouldn't expect such a bullet to offer very much on the penetration scale, but for use in snubbies during hot summer months, it's likely to be a pretty good load... as is the 135 gr. .38 spl +P Gold Dot for .38 snubbies.

I'm not a CorBon fan, so I would stick with the 145 ST, 158 H-S, and the 158 GD, depending on how you feel about penetration.

[atlctyslkr]

My vote is on the 158gr Hydrashoks. I like it in my snubs. From the tests I've read expansion is good from snubs.

[SAWBONES]

"Soon Speer will be releasing their announced 135 gr. .357 "SB" (for short-barrel) Gold Dot load. It's likely to have a cavernous hollow point which will certainly expand reliably at moderate to low .357 velocities."

They're released.
I've got some (only 40 rounds left, unfortunately) and shot up 60 rounds of it in my ported Ruger SP101s. Don't know velocities (no chronograph), but it seems just a bit more potent than Speer's Gold Dot .38 Special +P short barrel load. It's as accurate and precise as the .38 Special SB load, and appears to just be the same bullet, but in the longer .357 Magnum case.

I lean toward Buffalo Bore's 158gr and 170gr JHP/JHC rounds in heavier .357 Magnum stuff, myself.

[Jim March]

Sawbones, that's exactly my impression of the 357 135gr Gold Dot, except I found it to be more accurate than the 38+P variety in my 4.68" barrel Ruger New Vaq.

[Cosmoline]

The 180 grain SJHP's from Remington are about the best available. They are designed for faster expasion than the other heavy .357's and hit like a freight train without giving up penetration. Maybe not the best for hunting hogs, but just about perfect for two legged predators.

[bigmike45]

For the last 8 years I have been using the Federal 180gr. JHP effectively on Texas Whitetail and Mule Deer. I harvested a 418lb. sough at 75 yards, two years ago, with this round as well. She dropped in her tracks. It resides in all my .357mags except one. That would be my wifes (previously mine) Ruger SP-101. That one has 158gr. HydraShoks in all 5 tubes.

[Marshall]

I shoot 158gr GDHP's and 145gr Silvertips mostly. I'm satisfied they'll do anything I need in the SD catagory. I shoot the Hydra Shok's too, I just haven't bought any in .357 Mag.

[Hook686]

You might follow this thread on the smith-wesson user forum ....

http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/550103904/m/5471026821


essentially the findings are that 145 grain silver tips are a good round ... the opinion from the morgue seems to be that there really are no bad .357 magnum rounds .... some just might be better than others in certain circumstances. :D

[Jim March]

Hook has it right.

My only extra thought is that I suspect some very modern high-tech rounds can get a lot of business done without huge raw power numbers or big recoil. The new 135gr 357Mag Gold Dot "Short Barrel" is exactly such a critter and as a bonus, it has tested well in my gun (Ruger New Vaq 4.68" tube) as being very accurate, better than anything else I've shot in it and was extremely comfortable shooting one handed or two.

In something like a Ruger SP101 this round would really rock.

[greygun]

Sunday morning, I fired two 158 gr. Hydra Shocks into a kevlar vest at 15 yards. They expanded completely, penetrated well, and retained nearly all of their weight. The Extreme Shock and GDHP did not expand in this informal, nearly meaningless test.

[Diamondback]

I too find the 145 gr. Silvertips and the 150 gr. Starfire a good compromise between velocity, bullet weight, accuracy, recoil and penetration. However in a smaller 2" snub ( read: J frame ) I find the reduced load 125 gr. Remington best for me. ( I was also a fan of the Pro Load Tactical Lite 125 gr. Gold Dot hollow point....but unfortunately it is no longer in production ).

I have also tried the real heavy Winchester Supreme Partition Gold 180 gr. stuff and found it to be surprisingly manageable again, in all but my 2" J frame.......however in my Ruger SP 101 it was no issue. I like the heavy Winchester round. I appreciate Cosmoline and Bigmike45 posting their experience with the 180 gr. Remington and Federal rounds. I intend to give both of them a try ! I am also curious to see how the new Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot will perform in my S&W 2" M66.

-regards

[Smith357]

I was not a big fan of the move to light bullets in the .357. I have always liked bigger bullets so I load the 180 grain Hornady XTPs in my defensive rounds. I have to check my reloading book to check the powder amounts but the last time I chronographed them moving at about 900fps from a 2.5 inch carry gun, and 1100 fps from my 6" nightstand gun, with very managable recoil and muzzle flash.

[bearmgc]

I use the Win silvertips and the Remington 165gr corelokt JHP.

[myrmindon]

In my Ruger GP100 4" I use hornady XTP 180gr HP.
Though it is probably more for hunting I believe it would be sufficient enough
For personal protection.

myrmindon

[sthomper]

A Speer spokesman told me that the 158 Gold Dot is indeed not meant for defense against humans"

is there a 158gr bullet in 357mag made by speer? if it kills why woulndt it be for defnse against humans or anything else??

is a 41 mag or 44 mag noitmeant for defense against humans either??

[Yo Mama]

158 grain Hydroshock all the way, Winchester silverpoint .38s in the house though.

[sthomper]

what is a drawback with a 125gr 357 at 1500fps over a 158gr 357 moving at 1250fps??

is there a 158gr bullet??

http://www.hornady.com/store/357-Mag-125-gr-Critical-Defense/


is there some advantage to a heaver , same-caliber bullet at less energy and velocity than the 125 gr bullet with regard to killing living creatures?? is there some physical relationship that makes the heavier same-caliber bullet less likely to be lethal or do something?? or do you have no idea?

[_N4Z_]

This thread was started in 2005, and last touched in 2006... Just sayin'. :)

[DHart]

The 158 gr. Speer Gold Dot round is good for hunting because of it's penetrative ability, but also good for defense against humans where penetration of many layers of heavy clothing may be needed... such as during winter in severe climates. If I felt I might need to defend against a heavily built assailant wearing many layers of heavy clothing, I'd pick the 158 gr. Gold Dot in .357 caliber and be confident in it's ability to penetrate all those layers of heavy clothes, as well as deep layers of fat and/or muscle.

On the other hand, if such penetration isn't felt necessary, the 135 gr. Gold Dot and 145 gr. Silvertip are the loads I would choose in this caliber.

[sidheshooter]

Dang. Ancient thread.

That said, not much has changed since the days when the FBI offered the 145 silvertip as a reload by permission. For full-time bipedal predators, that, followed by the PMC starfire 150 (if it's still made), followed by the 158 Fed Hydra-shok, IMHO. Other heavy weights are too punchy. The 135 speer might be great when recoil is an issue (snubbies) but at 990 fps–or whatever it is now–I'd take the 38spec+P FBI load first over the 135 GDHP: if you're going to shoot a .38 bullet at .38 velocities, may as well have an easy ejection/reload and just skip the long cartridge. That .357 GDHP "short barrel" load reminds me of a bag of chips or box of cereal that is half full of air...

JMO

[DHart]

I agree that the 135 gr. .357 Gold Dot is a lighter loading, better suited to reducing recoil with snubbies.

My favorite .357 defense load is the 145 gr. Silvertip... that's a real goodie. Although I haven't looked at the very latest loadings... perhaps there's an HST that takes the prize these days? I've been solely focused on 9, 40, and 45 in recent years.

[sthomper]

thats what i anm trying to find out. at the hornady(?) website they claim they make 158 hp that moves at 1250 fps and has less energy than their 125g 1500fps round.

why would a heavier, slower round with less energy be chosen for penetration capabilities over the ligher, faster, higher KE round??? is their a mass / gravity relationshipo that makes heavier slower lower energy same-caliber rounds more effective at penetrating??

[DHart]

Generally speaking, heavier weight bullets for caliber penetrate deeper. But bullet design can have a huge influence as well.

Ignore energy and velocity statistics. Those don't tell you the "terminal ballistics", that is how the bullet itself performs when it hits the intended target (i.e. an human threat!)

The DESIGN of the bullet itself (material it is made of, the shape of the cavity, and other design elements), at the designed velocity for a given firearm, caliber, and barrel length is what determines the performance of that loading. Just comparing bullet weights, velocities, energy, etc. is relatively meaningless and cannot tell you the terminal effectiveness of one round vs. another.

Modern bullet designs have been able to provide extremely effective terminal results in calibers which with older, less well designed bullets were comparatively ineffective. This is why 9mm has finally come into it's own as an effective defense caliber. The very best and latest bullet designs have made the 9mm caliber much more capable as a defense caliber than it once was. HST, Gold Dot, and Ranger loadings are arguably the best of today's latest, available bullet designs. Not to say there aren't a few other good current-day designs as well.

Basically you want to know how deeply a bullet will penetrate a typical human adversary and to what size that bullet is expected to expand.

Deep penetration is job one - without it, expansion size is relatively worthless. But complete penetration with no expansion at all is not what you want either. The best bullets are designed to penetrate deeply and expand well, depending on the consistency and size of the intended target, without over penetration or over expansion (disintegration). Human targets and animal targets represent considerably different consistency and size, therefore defense ammunition and hunting ammunition are made with considerably different design parameters.

Once you have a bullet that can be expected to penetrate at least, let's say 16" in clothed, calibrated ballistic gel, what is it's expanded diameter and how much retained bullet weight does it have. Once you know those elements, you can more easily compare one defense loading to another.

[sthomper]

i know that bullet design can affect penetration. someone earlier climed that 125gr was incufficient..and that a 158 gr was preferrable even though info i have seen says they are slower and have less KE? maybe they are lying??

Ignore energy and velocity statistics. Those don't tell you the "terminal ballistics",......
what does?

dont energy and velocity affect terminal ballistics?

hornady website(?) says a 158 gr bullet moves at 1250fps and has less energy that a 125gr at 1500fps.

why would a 158 gr bullet of same caliber penetrate better (as some say) than a higher energy and faster 125gr bullet (with same design)?

[sixgunner455]

It's physics, and you have to consider more than the actual velocity. The KE isn't that important.

125 gr .358" hollow point bullets at a nominal 1500 fps expand. This limits penetration, just like a parachute opening slows down a parachutist, because it slows down the bullet. The hope of the designer of the HP bullet is that the opening mushroom petals will widen the wound channel, thereby increasing the amount of permanent tissue damage and increasing the effectiveness of the wound at incapacitating the target. This is true whether the bullet is designed for hunting or defense.

158-185 gr .358" hollowpoint (or solid) bullets at a nominal 1100-1250 fps may or may not expand. They odds are better for them than they are for an even slower bullet, but they are heavier for caliber, and even if they do expand, it won't be as much as the 125 gr bullets do. The extra weight increases momentum, which is a different measurement than raw KE, so they plow on through more tissue.

Personally, if I'm defending against a bear, I want my bullets heavy and penetrative. 158 gr minimum, 1100-1200 fps. If I'm defending against people, lighter will certainly work well, but I don't really think that the screaming velocities of the lighter bullets do much for me besides increase recoil and muzzle blast. I think a 140 gr or heavier hollowpoint at a reasonable velocity is much more likely to be controllable, and to penetrate as far as it needs to go. But if I'm stuck with 125 gr softpoints at 1350-1500 fps, I'll manage.

Researching hunting and aggressive predator defense has made me rethink a lot of what I thought I knew.

[DHart]

I'm with sixgunner... screaming velocity, light weight bullets more often than not fail to achieve the desired outcome that heavier weight, slower moving bullets do.

Velocity, bullet weight, cross section, energy, distance to target, target composition and depth, bullet composition, and bullet design ALL affect the terminal ballistics.

Generally speaking, heavier bullets <for caliber> offer better penetration and moderate recoil. I like 124gr. and 147gr. in 9mm, 180 gr. in .40, 230 gr. in .45acp., and 145 gr. in .357 magnum.

The best defense bullet designs and loadings offer deep penetration in the intended target type, good expansion in said target type, and attempt to minimize recoil and muzzle blast. So you can't determine what loads are better than others by comparing bullet weights and velocities, you've got to take all the other factors into consideration and evaluate how the various loads perform in some standardized medium, which is typically ballistic gel with several layers of denim over it.

[USSR]

why would a heavier, slower round with less energy be chosen for penetration capabilities over the ligher, faster, higher KE round??? is their a mass / gravity relationshipo that makes heavier slower lower energy same-caliber rounds more effective at penetrating??

SD (sectional density).

Don

[roaddog28]

I agree with a lot of the responses and prefer a heavier grain round over the super fast and light weight rounds. Not mentioned so far but Black Hills makes a 158 gr 357 HP which does well against two legged or four legged predators. The recoil is not bad and of course from a fixed sight 357 magnum will shoot POA. Works good in my Ruger Police Service Six 4 inch. I also like the Silvertips too. I believe in a service size revolver going lighter than a 140 gr round could be a problem in a SD situation as far as pentration.

My take.
Regards,
Howard

[murf]

if you want a good example of penetration, go to the public pool and watch kids jump off the high dive. a kid jumps off and lands perfectly vertical feet-first. no sound, little splash and goes to the bottom of the ten foot deep pool. gets out and trys again. this time he over rotates and does a belly flop! every head turns at the SMACK! water goes everywhere. he may go a foot under water. he's crying because he transfered all his momentum (went from 60 to zero) in one foot, not ten feet.

small diameter and long vs. large diameter and short - fmj vs. hollow point - high sd vs. low sd

murf

[DHart]

murf... that's a good one! I like it.

[murf]

had to dig deep for that one. it's been a while since i've done a belly-flop off a high dive!

murf

[XTrooper]

I keep my Smith & Wesson Performance Center 627 UDR 8-shot .357 Magnum loaded with Federal 158gr Hydra-Shoks.

http://xtrooper.net/SW_627_PC_4.jpg

[Deaf Smith]

The Gold dot 158s will do fine IF you are using Buffalo Bore ammo loaded with them.

Why?

1390 fps from a FOUR inch barrel.

Yep, you will get lots of expansion at that velocity!

Deaf