Having a gun would have made it worse?


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Sven
April 27, 2005, 01:02 AM
My good friend visited last week with his girlfriend... while they were here vacationing, they learned that her roomates had been mugged (in Dallas) at gunpoint. Two guys jumped them as they entered their car, both armed.

The BGs pistol whipped one of the guys in the back of the head when he failed to get the car lights off quickly enough. In the end, the BGs ran off - they didn't want the car, just cash.

In talking with my friend, he vigorously argued that guns would have made that situation worse. He says it is better to take your chances and comply then to fight fire with fire.

I talked with him for 10 minutes on it, but he didn't budge in his viewpoint. In learning more, it seems the two victims were likely easy targets.... but the viewpoint that it is better to give in to thugs just seems bizzare to me.

(sigh)

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JohnKSa
April 27, 2005, 01:12 AM
First of all, HAVING a gun wouldn't change the situation at ALL. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you MUST haul it out. So, without even getting into the nitty-gritty of this particular situation we see that his reasoning is flawed.it is better to take your chances and comply then to fight fire with fireThat has been proven to be false. Research (Lott's?) shows that your BEST chance for escaping injury in a violent confrontation is to resist with a firearm. It definitely provides better chances of emerging unscathed than no resistance at all.

paternoster2012
April 27, 2005, 01:12 AM
If someone had a gun pointed at my face and I had a gun in my wasitband Im pretty sure I wouldnt rsk drawing my weapon

Zundfolge
April 27, 2005, 01:12 AM
More then a gun, just not being in condition white would have helped them the most.

chris in va
April 27, 2005, 01:13 AM
That's a scary situation. Guns are already trained on you, your gun is still in the holster. You draw, they shoot. :eek:

DelayedReaction
April 27, 2005, 01:18 AM
Lott's research was a statistical correlation. People who resisted a criminal with firearms were less likely to be injured than people who did not resist at all, who were in turn less likely to be injured than people who resisted with a weapon other than a firearm. Having a firearm does not magically reduce your chances of injury, it merely gives you options that your brain can use to solve the situation.

If I found myself ambushed and with a gun pointed at me, compliance would be exactly what I would do.

c_yeager
April 27, 2005, 02:54 AM
Owning a gun wouldnt have made that situation any better. A person with poor judgement could have possibly made it worse by pulling a gun on a person who already had them dead to rights though. Of course the whole situation would be solved by paying more attention to what was going on. People dont just materialize behind you, those guys WERE there, all he had to do was see them. The one way that having a gun might of helped is by providing a reminder to stay aware. I know that when i carry a gun there is a 20oz reminder that things arent always sunny.

It sounds like he is happy being a sheep, so why deprive the wolves of a meal? As long as there are easy pickings for the bad guys, they wont take the risk of tackling someone that might defend themselves. Today, simply drawing a gun will make a lot of criminals move on to someone easier. If EVERYONE did this then they might not be so easy to dissuade (forget the notion that they would find honest work cause it wont happen).

Firethorn
April 27, 2005, 07:23 AM
It's like the people who talk about those rare situations where not wearing your seatbelt would have been safer than wearing it.

30 cal slob
April 27, 2005, 08:45 AM
If they have the draw on you, and you know their guns are real and loaded, then, well, I guess that's a very very tough risky call. I wasn't there so I'm not sure what I would do. How do you prepare yourself for a situation like that, other than to be extremely alert (condition red) all the time?

However, if you are in a situation where the guys are going to shoot you anyways, then you have nothing to lose by shooting back. I would try to stall and find some kind of cover to get me some time to draw, acquire target and shoot. It's complicated with another innocent party to protect.

I guess this is why they have shooting classes ... (anti-carjacking 101)

bogie
April 27, 2005, 08:55 AM
What if, rather than running off, they took the keys...

And the female victims?

Let's see... You're supposed to blow a whistle. Scream. Scratch their eyes out with your car keys... Hey, wait minute... They've got the keys. I guess they should just give up and pretend they enjoy it until they're killed and dumped in a ditch.

jobu07
April 27, 2005, 09:49 AM
If someone had a gun pointed at my face and I had a gun in my wasitband Im pretty sure I wouldnt rsk drawing my weapon

Ok! Ok! Don't shoot. Just let me get my wallet for you, it's in my back pocket... ;)

However, if you are in a situation where the guys are going to shoot you anyways, then you have nothing to lose by shooting back.

That is exactly why I would say if you're carrying, you might as well use it or lose it in that situation. You never will know if this guy is gonna be the one thug that does kill you so as not to leave a witness. Why roll the dice and hope he doens't kill you when you are capable of defending yourself?

But then again, if the person in question were just a little bit more cautious and aware of thier surroundings, it might not have happened at all. :(

orangeninja
April 27, 2005, 09:53 AM
Sven....I have to agree with your friend. He is absolutely right, in his case a gun would have made it worse.

Reason being (don't get out the flame thrower yet) is that your friend does not have the proper mindset or knowledge. A gun is a tool, like a wrench, if one knows how to use it, it can fix things, if not, more crap gets screwed up much worse. THATS if he is willing to use it.

For someone who is unsure of wether or not to use a gun in a real life encounter, a gun will make it worse. They will hesitate at worst and get wasted while holding a gun trying to "decide". Or they will simply freeze....or at best they will provide an armed assailant with a weapon that cannot be tracked back to them.

He is lacking at least one of two critical components:

1.) A combat mindset
2.) Knowledge of how to fight with a gun

So in your friends case, having a gun would have been worse.

Baba Louie
April 27, 2005, 10:18 AM
People dont just materialize behind you, those guys WERE there, all he had to do was see them. The one way that having a gun might of helped is by providing a reminder to stay aware. I know that when i carry a gun there is a 20oz reminder that things arent always sunny. What c_y said is worth it's weight in gold.
...but the viewpoint that it is better to give in to thugs just seems bizzare to me. I'd say maybe 1 in 10 would resist and/or fight... maybe. I'm probably an optimist at that. That's why Crime Pays.

petrel800
April 27, 2005, 10:58 AM
I had this same conversation the other day and my arguement to the anti was; that yes in that situation when the guy had the gun already in your face it would make the situtation worse, but that in a free society people have to have the choice of whether or not they want to protect themselves.

My question back to him was what if the situation got to the point where the victim knew the guy was going to kill or maim him. Doesn't he at least deserve a chance to make the choice to try and draw? The anti finally agreed that taking away the option of self defense was a problem.

Majic
April 27, 2005, 11:17 AM
2 people getting into a car generally means they are standing on both sides of the car. If neither one saw that the other was about to be attacked then no gun or anything else would have helped them. If you don't have any situational awareness then nothing else matters.

hightech
April 27, 2005, 11:32 AM
Carrying a gun is not the answer to self defense, situational awareness is. Be aware of what is going on and who is around you. If someone has pulled a gun on you, you will not outdraw him. The gun just gives you the advantage when you realize that you may be or are in danger. :uhoh:

psyopspec
April 27, 2005, 11:42 AM
Alduro knows his stuff - the gun isn't a talisman, and without training and mindset it's useless. I too agree with your friend. A gun could easily have made his situation worse.

Firethorn
April 27, 2005, 11:46 AM
Baba Louie, it has to be worse than 1 in 10 resisting, more like 1 in 100. But then, these guys usually get arrested multiple times a year, so it might be 1 in 10, it's just that they aren't removed from society.

If only 1 in 10 people resisted mugging with a firearm, there would very quickly be no professional muggers.

crewsr
April 27, 2005, 12:05 PM
using your head is the best first option always.
guns are backup.

Standing Wolf
April 27, 2005, 01:12 PM
Every time we acquiesce to criminals' demands, we merely encourage them to continue and expande the scope of their predations.

Double Maduro
April 27, 2005, 05:58 PM
There is no "one" right answer to being mugged. Each case is different and each reaction is different, or should be.

Sometimes it is better to fight, sometimes to run, sometimes to meekly say "yes sir".

However, if you have a gun, you have more options available to you.

You don't need to be in "condition red" to be aware of your surroundings. Since I got my CPL, I tend to hover around condition orange. I try to be aware of my surroundings and try to be ready for the unforseen.

If they are alive and not seriously hurt, they did ok. I said ok, you can always do better, especially on monday morning with a cup of coffee and a donut.

DM

L-Frame
April 27, 2005, 06:03 PM
There are so many variables in this situation it makes it difficult to discuss.
-having a gun would not have made the situation worse, in itself
-trying to use the gun in that situation would have almost certainly made the situation worse, probably much worse.
-we talk about situational awareness, but maybe these particular criminals were good at their jobs, and didn't stand out. Sometimes it's just wrong place, wrong time.
-a gun gives us more options, and sometimes the best option is not to use it
-I agree completely that criminals should be stopped from committing their crimes whenever possible, but if I believe that the danger to me /family/friends/bystanders is going to increase by me pulling my gun, then they will get away with it (and, yes, hopefully not shoot anyone in the process). This is one of the 2 most important and difficult decisions a gun owner will ever have to make, (draw, don't draw, and shoot, don't shoot)

Texian Pistolero
April 27, 2005, 06:05 PM
carry short companion sword,

remove his right hand at his wrist.

may he find wisdom and true humility,

in the ruby colour,

of his own,

arterial spray,

backlit against the setting sun.

q102josh
April 27, 2005, 09:40 PM
this sounds kind of like the people who play the "aren't you afraid of having your gun used against you?" card... though i suppose there are some situations where tactically you're at a disadvantage, and its better not to draw.

P95Carry
April 27, 2005, 10:12 PM
Things happen fast - very fast but - here (possibly) was a classic ''condition white'' status. Awareness - is all - it may only give a second or two's warning of trouble but then - if carrying - there is a chance to do something about it.

True - these folks probably would not have been empowered at all if carrying - possibly a totally inadequate mindset. Maybe they even had the ''victim'' stamp of approval written all over - so many folks seem to radiate that.

mustanger98
April 28, 2005, 02:10 PM
Okay, considering they were probably in condition white, they probably didn't even have a case of Dangerous Man Syndrome and a gun wouldn't have helped at all in either case.

If somebody has the jump on you, has a gun in your face, you've already made a bunch of mistakes one right after another. It's time to deal with it. Some of these situations are damned if you do, damned if you don't. Each individual has to make the call.

One tactic, considering you don't get mugged from outside arms length and a talented amatuer can kill you, is to knock your assailant's gun-hand out of the way while drawing your own. Shoot one handed- point, BANG. Your assailant may not be expecting you to draw and fire, or else they wouldn't have targetted you to begin with. Reaction time is always slower, so the guy - the one you and your assailant both thought had you dead to rights - being overconfident don't see the tables about to be turned. The difference between this and "beat the clap" (the old gunfighter's exhibition trick) is that the Bad Guy probably don't even expect you to try to defend yourself.

Best way to avoid the original scenario of this thread is to walk around like a free man paying attention to your surroundings. Being armed is how you deal with it when the two-legged coyotes show up despite all your best efforts. If you totally rely on your CCW, then you have a case of Dangerous Man Syndrome and it can get you killed faster than being unarmed in a dangerous encounter. But being armed and knowing what you're doing may well save your life.

Sven
April 28, 2005, 02:43 PM
Turns out the two guys are very much "sheep" and were an easy target. They are the type that would never imagine something like this happening - well, formerly...

Island Beretta
April 28, 2005, 03:03 PM
lack of situational awareness is the problem here...they need to be more vigilant!!

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