Shipping to C&R's?


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Rack Grade
April 27, 2005, 07:06 PM
I do not have a C&R.

Can I ship TO a C&R buying something from me?

I'm in New Jersey if that matters.

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Chipperman
April 27, 2005, 07:21 PM
Barring any funky NJ laws, that should be ok.

Hkmp5sd
April 27, 2005, 07:25 PM
Only if the firearm is a C&R.

thatguy
April 28, 2005, 03:48 PM
New Jersey doesn't recognize antiques and maybe C&R as well. I would check with state AG web site about if state law prohibits a non-license holder from shipping to a license holder. It's OK under federal law, but state laws also occur.

Note that California state law requires C&R handguns to be shipped to a regular 001 FFL holder for transfer to the buyer even if he has a C&R license. Long guns may go directly to C&R holder.

If NJ allows shipping from non-FFL then, yes, you can ship directly to the C&R holder (assuming the gun is C&R eligible) unless it's a pistol going to CA. In that case it will need to go to an FFL DEALER.

Aren't all the mixed up and confusing gun laws wonderful?

EOD Guy
April 28, 2005, 06:17 PM
Note that California state law requires C&R handguns to be shipped to a regular 001 FFL holder for transfer to the buyer even if he has a C&R license. Long guns may go directly to C&R holder.

Only if the rifle or shotgun is over 50 years old.

Gung-Ho
April 28, 2005, 07:13 PM
Quote:
Note that California state law requires C&R handguns to be shipped to a regular 001 FFL holder for transfer to the buyer even if he has a C&R license. Long guns may go directly to C&R holder.


Only if the rifle or shotgun is over 50 years old.

NOPE...if they are coming from out of state, they can go right to the C&R holder. I know, I've had a C&R for 3 years...and have many a rifle come right to my door.

jefnvk
April 28, 2005, 08:46 PM
Federal law says that only C&R guns can go to C&R holders.

If you have been doing otherwise, I'd shut up now.

Gung-Ho
April 28, 2005, 08:57 PM
I hope your not talking to me.....some rifles are C&R even though they are not 50 years old. But that is the general way to be sure they are C&R.

jefnvk
April 29, 2005, 01:05 AM
Sorry, thought you were having new guns shipped to you. Failed to read where he only said 50+ years old, and forgot to mention the listed by ATF as C&R guns.

EOD Guy
April 29, 2005, 08:38 AM
Note that California state law requires C&R handguns to be shipped to a regular 001 FFL holder for transfer to the buyer even if he has a C&R license. Long guns may go directly to C&R holder.






Only if the rifle or shotgun is over 50 years old.



NOPE...if they are coming from out of state, they can go right to the C&R holder. I know, I've had a C&R for 3 years...and have many a rifle come right to my door.

That is incorrect. California law requires that all firearms transactions be processed through a California licensed dealer. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is an exception for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. If you directly received rifles less than 50 years old, you did so in violation of California law.

Here is an explanation of California law as pertains to C&R FFL holders. This has been run by a California lawyer familiar with the California Dangerous Weapons Control Law and he has approved it as accurate.

There is a lot of confusion around concerning the California regulations on C&R Firearms. The first thing to remember is that California, with few exceptions, requires all firearms transfers within the state to be processed through a dealer. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is however, an exception to the dealer transfer requirement for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. [PC 12078(t)(2)] This exception is available to anyone legally able to possess firearms. California doesn’t care if you are licensed or not, that’s a Federal matter. The 50 year rifle and shotgun exception is the reason that C&R FFL holders in California can receive these types of firearms directly from an out of state supplier.

The California definition for a C&R firearm is exactly the same as that used by BATF in 27CFR. California references both Title 18 and 27 CFR for the definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does the California DOJ.

There are a couple of exceptions to the firearms laws that are available to C&R FFL holders. If the licensee also holds a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) from the California DOJ, they are exempt from the 10-day waiting period when buying C&R firearms from a dealer. [PC 12078(t)(1)] The same C&R FFL holder with a COE is also exempt from the one handgun a month law for both C&R and modern handguns. [PC 12072(a)(9)(B)] You also would not need a handgun safety certificate when purchasing C&R handguns. [PC 12807(a)(6)]


Where the C&R FFL comes in handy is when the holder is out of the state. They may purchase any C&R firearm and bring it back to California. The exceptions of course include those “evil” “assault weapons” and magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds cannot be brought back. Any C&R handguns purchased must be registered with the California DOJ within 5 days and are reported on Form BCIA 4100A along with a $19.00 payment for each handgun. [PC 12072(f)(3)]

Gung-Ho
April 29, 2005, 11:29 AM
That is incorrect. California law requires that all firearms transactions be processed through a California licensed dealer. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders.

Yes and no. In ********** the rifle has to be at least 50 years old. And if it is coming from another dealer or C&R holder IN ********** it has to go thru a dealer. If it is coming from out of state, it does NOT.

I can see after reading your post again, that we are on the same page. I just did not explain myself very good.

thatguy
April 29, 2005, 11:35 AM
I didn't realize I was unclear. We were discussing C&R guns, and C&R license holders, so I didn't know I needed to include "C&R" in each sentence of my post to avoid confusion.

Let me try restating my original message.

CA law allows C&R long guns (rifles and shotguns that are 50 years old or are specifically listed on the ATF C&R list) to be shipped directly to C&R license holders.

C&R handguns (pistols that are 50 years old or are specifically listed by the ATF as C&R eligible) must be shipped to a regular 001 FFL dealer for transfer to the buyer even if the buyer has a 003 C&R license.

Important to note that the best thing about C&R pistols is that they are exempt from the "drop-test" requirement for state certification and anyone in CA may buy one or import for purpose of sale.

EOD Guy
April 29, 2005, 12:13 PM
Yes and no. In ********** the rifle has to be at least 50 years old. And if it is coming from another dealer or C&R holder IN ********** it has to go thru a dealer. If it is coming from out of state, it does NOT.

We're on the same page, but one correction. If a C&R rifle or shotgun is over 50 years old, it is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement entirely. There is no need for either party to be licensed for transfer within the state.

See Penal Code Section 12078(t)(2). "Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 (This is the requirement to transfer firearms through a dealer.) shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor."

Gung-Ho
April 29, 2005, 03:19 PM
If a C&R rifle or shotgun is over 50 years old, it is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement entirely. There is no need for either party to be licensed for transfer within the state.

Yup, for what they call on an "infrequent" basis. Now does that mean not more than twice a day, month, or year? :rolleyes:

EOD Guy
April 29, 2005, 03:47 PM
Yup, for what they call on an "infrequent" basis. Now does that mean not more than twice a day, month, or year?

For that definition, you have to go to Penal Code Section 12078(u)(1) which refers you to Penal Code Section 12070(c)(1):

As used in this section, "infrequent" means:

(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

As you can see, the California Dangerous Weapons Control Law isn't easy to follow. You have to hop from section to section. Very rarely is a question answered completely in one particular section. :(

Gung-Ho
April 29, 2005, 03:57 PM
So you can transfer up to six handguns a year....when the law says elsewhere that they have to go through a dealer? And as for rifles...."occasional and without regularity." :rolleyes: So this means it must be more than six and less than ??? ....I crap every day, that is "regular." So if I transfer a rifle every other day, does that make it irregular? :D

EOD Guy
April 29, 2005, 05:30 PM
Handguns still have to be transferred through a dealer. The six transactions per year, with any number of handguns per transaction, is the threshold at which the State says you should be getting licensed.

Hey, I didn't say it was easy. :) I've been working with Federal and state regulations most of my adult life and they don't get any easier to read. One of the first things I learned was that using logic and common sense when trying to understand the regulations will only give you a headache. ;)

Gung-Ho
April 29, 2005, 06:36 PM
Handguns still have to be transferred through a dealer. The six transactions per year, with any number of handguns per transaction, is the threshold at which the State says you should be getting licensed.

Which makes NO sense at all if they are going through a dealer anyway. Now if you lived in a state like Florida, (where nothing has to go through a dealer) I could MAYBE see the point. :rolleyes:

EOD Guy
April 29, 2005, 11:45 PM
See my post above about logic and common sense. :banghead:

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