While we're at it, tell me about Michigan


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Shear_stress
April 27, 2005, 09:37 PM
Hi folks,

Been cruising this site a long time as a guest and decided to join.

I am about to abandon the great state of California for the appropriately mitten-shaped state of Michigan (and not a moment too soon--check out California SB357). It will be great to live in a place where actual open space separates the cities and gun owners are not treated like a tribe of dangerous cultists. Just curious if there might be any high-roaders out in the lower peninsula who can give me a little guidance.

I was not thrilled to learn about handgun purchase permits and police "safety inspections". I thought I was leaving those kinds of fun and games behind. Besides that, though, Michigan seems pretty gun friendly, relatively speaking. Plus, I can finally get that Bushmaster I've been pining after for years (though I will have to register my S&W pre-M18--makes all kinds of sense too me). That, and I can finally get my grubby hands on some of those Gander Mountain sale items.

So what are things like in the Washtenaw County area? After checking Davidson's it doesn't seem like there are too many FFLs in that neck of the woods, but there are a few. Also, how are the ranges? There seem to be a couple out toward Dexter.

Thanks!

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fb
April 27, 2005, 09:50 PM
Gun wise you are comeing to a great state. I used to live in the city of Saline just a few miles south of Ann Arbor, really fine people there.
Yes this is a gun lovers state, permits are fairly easy to come by. And with few exceptions, LEOs are not hard to get along with.
Lots of hunting, big game and small.
I live north of Lansing about fifty miles, and people up here except guns even more redily.
We dont carrry open, but do carry all the time.
I hope you enjoy michigan, I would not care to live anywhere else.

Good Luck

Sleeping Dog
April 27, 2005, 09:59 PM
There's a decent state-run (DNR) range near Grass Lake, just west of Washtenaw County (I think it's Jackson County).

Another nice thing about the area - it's easy driving distance to Camp Perry and the CMP store. If you're interested in old GI rifles.

Regards.

Tag
April 27, 2005, 10:04 PM
I was not thrilled to learn about handgun purchase permits and police "safety inspections". I thought I was leaving those kinds of fun and games behind.

It's not bad, really. All in all the whole process takes about 1/2 an hour, and you get your pistol same day.

CCW is a little expensive, but the permits are good for 5 years.

Go-Blue!

Stevie-Ray
April 27, 2005, 11:56 PM
Purchase permits take about a week here. I've heard it's the same at many other locations. You apply at your local PD. You receive a letter in the mail that says you record is clear. The letter is good for a year, and you can get as many permits on that letter as you wish. I would suggest the long and drawn out (Wayne cty:mad: ) process of applying for your CPL. Don't need purchase permits, then. :D Also comes in handy if you're close to a high-crime area like me. Personally I'd like to leave this state, but only for a better climate. Were it warmer here year-round, I'd never consider it. But I am damn sure getting out of Wayne cty. :mad: This county goes to great lengths to dissuade anybody from getting a CPL, including adding their own BS requirements for aquiring one. There are lawsuits in the offing, but who is going to really get punished? :rolleyes: I HATE Wayne cty! The process is much more streamlined in other areas of the state, and as a rule, is pretty much gun-friendly, even with our anti-gun governor.

Don't get me wrong, I've lived here for 49 years and love the state in the summer.

Detest it in the winter, and that's about 5 months.

Standing Wolf
April 28, 2005, 12:44 AM
I grew up in Michigan. It's a beautiful place. Most of the people are generous, outgoing, friendly, honest, and easy to get along with. Away from Detroit, it's pretty clean. If you're an outdoorsy person, Michigan could be considered heaven on earth, although there aren't any mountains.

Detroit, the unions, and representatives of the Democratic (sic) party are a serious problem. They suck tax dollars out of the rest of the state, and squander them on welfare and other leftist extremist causes. Detroit politics are exceedingly corrupt, and have been for decades; its corruption adversely affects the rest of the state, which has always been clean.

When I was getting ready to leave the People's Republic of California in 2002, I thought about going home to Michigan, but had to cross it off the list: I'm flatly unwilling to register my firearms, and couldn't face the thought of handing my tax dollars to some of the worst of the worst. Michigan has tried to diversify economically away from the automobile manufacturers, but that's still its major industry, and from all I've seen, the former "big three" aren't doing very well. Sad!

I'm sure I'll always miss Michigan. The years I spent in the upper peninsula were the best ever.

All that said™, it's a far better place to live than the P.R.C. I predict you'll come to love it in fairly short order, especially after you invest in a down-filled winter coat, insulated boots, and mosquito repellant.

Shear_stress
April 28, 2005, 01:26 AM
Thanks for all the great information!

It's a relief to know that the permit process isn't going to be as bad as I thought. Those of you who have left California will share my excitement at being able to buy nonconsignment goodies from a dealer that aren't on any "list". For those of you who never lived in California, all this means is that, when J&G Sales offers all those nice 3" Smith M10 police returns, you can actually buy one!

Oh yeah, and I can finally get a magazine for my 10/22 that holds a realistic number of rounds (I missed out on the 1/1/2000 high-capacity cut off here). Right on!

jefnvk
April 28, 2005, 01:27 AM
Purchase permits take about a week here. I've heard it's the same at many other locations. You apply at your local PD. You receive a letter in the mail that says you record is clear. The letter is good for a year, and you can get as many permits on that letter as you wish.

Wow, where abouts are you?

They had no problem giving an 18 year old three pistol permits (Midland Co.). Of the three, none took more than fifteen minuets for the background check or the safety check (which is really not a safety check, simply checking that the serial number on the permit and on the gun are the same). There is the whole issue of having it registered, but it is not as bad as some make it seem. I could get the purchase permit, buy the gun, and have the safety check done in less than an hour.

The biggest thing I have with the system is that anything under 30" is considered a pistol, requiring a permit. That means a G22, which is like 29.5 or 29.7", needs a pistol permit to purchase. That and no NFA, although I am not rich enough to afford any of those toys yet. Any 'assualt weapons' are open though.

LOTS of public land for hunting and shooting. My land is an open field in the woods on state land, about ten minuets from college. Another great thing about Michigan, their public colleges let you keep guns on campus. When I am home, the field behind my house suffices. Instant 300 yard range.

Just stay north of the Saginaw Bay, and you should have no real problems with civilization and antis.

PS - I am finding that north of the bridge is pretty much a whole other state.

Darkmind
April 28, 2005, 01:51 AM
For your sake I really hope you already have a good job lined up before you even hit the road for Michigan. Things are not looking very good over hear in Grand Rapids. A lot of companies are packing up the tents and heading south. Steelcase, one of the largest company's in the GR area is closing down a very large part of its mfg plants and cutting a lot of jobs. They bring in more tax dollars than any other company in the GR area and now thats going bye bye.

dloken
April 28, 2005, 01:59 AM
I suggest moving across the big lake into Wisconsin. Much more gun friendly here than Michigan once we get our CCW (The only thing stopping us is our anti-gun governor). Michigan is C&R NFA only, and you have to put up with the pistol permit nonsense. WI has no restrictions on firearms other than a 2 day handgun waiting period and our lack of CCW (We have open carry though). :neener:

Barbara
April 28, 2005, 05:59 AM
Pistol permits here take 5 minutes, tops. It sucks to have to "Safety Inspect" handguns (not long guns) but that's about the only real anti-gun problem.

Just don't move to WaCo. If you need a job, Oakland County is probably your best bet and Livingston County is nearby and pretty pro-gun.

My county is pro-gun, too, but there are no jobs at all.

Mixlesplick
April 28, 2005, 06:39 AM
Muskegon County is hurting for manufacturing jobs. Everything shuts down in the late evening, also, so if you like the night life this isn't the place. We have a lot of beautiful lakes and lakeshore in West Michigan, though.

Pistol permits seem to be faster and easier to get in non-urban areas but they can't be denied arbitrarily anywhere. You can only get the purchase permits at your local pd so you can't go somewhere else if you get a city with a slow permit process.

There are a few outdoor ranges around here and an indoor pistol range in Norton Shores.

Rupestris
April 28, 2005, 10:16 AM
Just don't move to WaCo

I'll second that one. If at all possible, do not live in Wayne County. There are some beautiful neighborhoods in WaCo. Unfortunately the crime rate of Detroit dictates the insurance for the rest of the county. Car and homeowners insurance is probably double what you'll pay in Washtenaw, Macomb, or any other surrounding county.
I live in WaCo but I have done so all my life. stupid, I guess. :rolleyes:

If you play golf Michigan has more golf courses than any other state. You can slice into the trees and come out on a completely different course.

You'll need a boat, a snow blower, and a lawn mower. Don't be surprised if you get to use all three in the same day.

This pic was taken on April 24th of this year.
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/539/4-24-05_tough_flowers.JPG

A week before it was taken the temp was 80* in SE Mich.

If you go to http://www.michigandnr.com/hunting/ShootingRangesMap.asp?map=lw you'll find a list of ranges by county.

HTH,
Chris

kudu
April 28, 2005, 10:21 AM
You could always try Indiana, more handgun permits per capita than any other state. 1 out of 15 people have a handgun permit here. Not nearly the hunting prospects that Michigan has though.

MDS
April 28, 2005, 10:34 AM
Ann arbor is very liberal (university of Michigan) otherwise washtenaw county is much better.There are a couple of other ranges in washtenaw county.There are also several dealears nearby.As far as purchase permit if you get ccw that acts like your permit however you still need a "safety check" which is they run your serial number to see it your gun is stolen not a big deal just a pain.
Welcome to Michigan

BriGuy1
April 28, 2005, 10:46 AM
Moving to Michigan means:

1) You are required to purchase a boat within 30 days of your arrival;

2) In addition to your primary residence, you are required to purchase a "Cottage" "Up North" within 36 months of your arrival in the State;

3) Factories and business' close or scale back operations on the opening day of firearm deer season;

4) If Playboy ever runs an issue dedicated to women in politics, our Governor will be the centerfold;

5) There are no carpool lanes anywhere-we all drive to work, alone, in our SUVs, and we like it that way;

6) Auto insurance is no-fault; get in a crash, your car gets fixed with no silly lawyers getting in the way;

7) No matter where you live, you are no more than 30 minutes away from cool places to shop, eat, and buy lattes (unless you are "Up North", then you might have to bring your own latte);

8) There are usually two gun shows a month going on within driving distance of where you live;

9) Canada is just a few minutes drive and you can enjoy Cuban cigars and rum cheap;

10) Summers here totally rock.

Welcome!

Rupestris
April 28, 2005, 10:55 AM
Heres a couple links to check out:

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/
http://www.firearmsalliance.org/
http://www.mgouc.com/phpBB2/index.php
http://www.michigan2a.org/phpBB2/index.php

BTW, we have Cabelas, Bass Pro, Gander Mtn., Dicks, Dunhams, etc.
You won't have to go far to shop for new toys.

Greymoor
April 28, 2005, 11:09 AM
Shear_stress, the first thing you do is get your CCW. Then all of that purchase permit stuff is out the window. You will still have to have your "safety inspection".

The SE corner is loaded with blissninnys and sheeple. The Dems in our state would like to get their hand in your pocket pretty much as they do elsewhere. Avoid living in Wayne County if you can. I live in Washtenaw County, and allthough we have Ann Arbor, it is pretty gun friendly.

Upstate is beautiful and the farther north you go the more rustic it becomes.

Khaotic
April 28, 2005, 12:14 PM
You'll need a boat, a snow blower, and a lawn mower. Don't be surprised if you get to use all three in the same day.

And if ya need em fixed, lemme know.

WaCo is a lil more absurd than most of MI, true - but i'll take even here over most of the US!

First time i visited this state i loved it, and not long after, moved here.
Not only are they for the most part (yes even we have morons) gun-friendly... I mean, we're the home of the 2nd amendment sisters, after all...
But what also makes me happy is the way people as a whole respect your privacy as long as you stay out of thier business.

Very little of that he-said-she-said, in-your-biz, nosy-neighbor crap I hated the east coast for.

Now if they could just, like.. put some of the exit ramps BACK on 94 so I didn't have to circle the damn city every time I go somewhere... :mad:

Can't have everything, heh.
-K

Shear_stress
April 28, 2005, 12:18 PM
Thanks again for the great advice.

"Shear_stress, the first thing you do is get your CCW. Then all of that purchase permit stuff is out the window. You will still have to have your 'safety inspection'."

This is something I will probably do on general principle. While living here in California, I actually bought one or two guns with the intention of carrying them at some point in the future. One question: don't you need at least a year of residency to get the CCW, or something?

Old Dog
April 28, 2005, 12:39 PM
Shear_stress - the residency requirement for a CPL is 6 months.
Having grown up in Wayne and Washtenaw counties, with the traditional family "camp" up in da UP, and having been exiled in California for almost ten years of my adult life -- I can tell you that you should find the quality of life in Michigan (as well as prices and housing costs) much better in Michigan.

Trebor
April 28, 2005, 12:43 PM
The residency requirements for CPL issuance are either 60 or 90 days. I'll dig out my info later and check. I'm working right now and kinda busy. (Not TOO busy though...)

EDIT: Ok, maybe it's 6 months. I have a copy of the regs and I'll double check later though.

Shear_stress
April 28, 2005, 01:12 PM
This is great news. I also had the option of moving elsewhere in California, where, miracle of miracles, CCW permits are not too hard to get. I think they made you wait a year, though, and the cost was like $211.64 (or some amount specified down to the penny).

Glad to hear about the quality of life. That's something I've been missing these past few years.

Standing Wolf
April 28, 2005, 09:47 PM
In addition to your primary residence, you are required to purchase a "Cottage" "Up North" within 36 months of your arrival in the State

If it's in the upper peninsula, it's known as a "camp."

Stevie-Ray
April 28, 2005, 09:56 PM
7) No matter where you live, you are no more than 30 minutes away from cool places to shop, eat, and buy lattes (unless you are "Up North", then you might have to bring your own latte); Meh, who cares about lattes? You'll be eating a pasty, so you just drink a beer with it. :D



Oh, and Standing Wolf, aren't you forgetting the Porkies? Heaven on Earth.

Barbara
April 28, 2005, 10:25 PM
I'm pretty sure there is no place in my entire county you can buy a latte. We drink coffee.

If you want froo-froo stuff, maybe the waitress will put some whipped cream in your cocoa.

Gun God
April 28, 2005, 11:12 PM
Michigan has wierd whether man! I think 2 days ago, I was walking to my bus stop and it was cold with snow all over the place. Not too much snow though. But then as I was leaving school, it was nice and bright, sunny and warm. :confused:

dloken
April 29, 2005, 12:13 AM
Is it true that all of you Michigan freaks only drink Vernors soda?

My mom is from Detroit, although she moved here to SE Wisconsin before I was born. I still have family there so I end up around the Detroit area once a year or so and it seems pretty nice. Not a whole lot different than Wisconsin though.

Gun God
April 29, 2005, 12:27 AM
Is it true that all of you Michigan freaks only drink Vernors soda?

Where the heck did your hear that? It's not true. I am a fan of ALL pop....or soda to you southerners.

enfield
April 29, 2005, 12:52 AM
2 pasties and a Blue Ribbon for me. What'll you guys have?

jefnvk
April 29, 2005, 02:01 AM
Is it true that all of you Michigan freaks only drink Vernors soda?

:confused:

Good stuff, but nowhere near as good as Dr. Pepper. Pretty much everyone else I know hates the stuff.

Yeah, forgot to mention the weather. Went from 80 to snowing and below zero in three days this past week. Hope you don't mind.

Oh, and when you get here, don't forget to take a trip to the bridge. Much better than that golden piece of crap you Cali's got.

In other good news, my bayonet-lugged, flash-hidden, pistol gripped AR kit is due to arrive today, and I picked up three 30 rounders for $30 for it. Betcha you can't do that over there :neener:

SteveS
April 29, 2005, 01:08 PM
7) No matter where you live, you are no more than 30 minutes away from cool places to shop, eat, and buy lattes (unless you are "Up North", then you might have to bring your own latte);

You can get lattes in the UP, especially if you are in one of the "big cities" (Marquette, Houghton, Escanaba, etc.). ;)

4) If Playboy ever runs an issue dedicated to women in politics, our Governor will be the centerfold;

That is one issue I would avoid. :barf:

41mag
April 29, 2005, 02:57 PM
Another troll checking in!

The weatherman is right only 1 day of the week.
A Coke & a pasty=good eats.
Don't cross the Mighty Mac on a motorcycle if their is even a hint of a breeze.(lost a Yugo over the side some years ago. :neener: )
Whitetails can be as big as Colorado elk.
The black bears like to be petted.
Pistol permits are a PITA.
If you like to swim either plan on a pool or on inland lake.The big lakes are only warm enough for an adult to swim for a month or so in summer.And a stiff breeze can change that in a hurry.
Do ya like to fish?Ya better. :D

Oh & one more thing.There's nothing like the first time you drive your car out on a frozen lake. :evil:

Darkmind
April 29, 2005, 05:49 PM
Oh & one more thing.There's nothing like the first time you drive your car out on a frozen lake.

I forgot abou that one! LOL

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/lool.gif http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/lool.gif

pezo
April 29, 2005, 07:34 PM
welcome to the great lakes state. The pistol permit inspection is only slightly annoying still useless waste of time but no biggy. If you havnt purchased a handgun in awhile they make you take a little cheesy quiz with questions that have tricked wording in it. too funny. :)

greyfeathers
April 29, 2005, 07:43 PM
AS it turns out I live in Washtenaw county. I belong to a couple of clubs
you might be interested in. The moose sportsmens club is always happy
to get new members that like to shoot. Trap is our biggest draw but we
do ccw clases and have pistol & rifle ranges. Its a great club. Let me know
if interested.

rdbrowning
April 29, 2005, 07:45 PM
Washtenaw County?!?

How on earth can anyone afford to live there? What with Cabela's just down the road I would be broker than I already am.

And who said the weather is bad? Remember, if you don't like the weather just stick around 5 minutes. :neener:

Barbara
April 29, 2005, 08:05 PM
I'd seriously look at Livingston County instead of Washtenaw, depending on where the job is.

I was wrong about the Lattes. The Christian-oriented coffee shop down town sells them. Darned progress anyway. Next thing you know, every telephone party-line in the county will be gone.

Heh..who am I kidding..it'll take a while for the party-lines to go away.

Delmar
April 29, 2005, 08:12 PM
Aw, Sheer Stress......should-a-would-a-could-a moved to Texas! We don' need no steenking safey checks on pistols here!

The water is warm-just watch out for the water moccasins.

The Democrats here pretty much know to stay away from our shootin irons-except for Austin. AKA Moscow on the Brazo's.

No really big deer here, but we got a mess of em, and in the county I hunt, you can take up to 4.

No Vernors or pastys :(

We do have barbeque!

Best of all, we don't have Det-RIOT!

Sure do miss the lakes, tho.

dloken
April 29, 2005, 08:49 PM
Good stuff, but nowhere near as good as Dr. Pepper. Pretty much everyone else I know hates the stuff.

Yeah, forgot to mention the weather. Went from 80 to snowing and below zero in three days this past week. Hope you don't mind.

Oh, and when you get here, don't forget to take a trip to the bridge. Much better than that golden piece of crap you Cali's got.

In other good news, my bayonet-lugged, flash-hidden, pistol gripped AR kit is due to arrive today, and I picked up three 30 rounders for $30 for it. Betcha you can't do that over there

Hey, I live in WI. I was just asking silly questions for the heck of it.

On the subject of the AR, I can do all that and own non C&R NFA stuff in Wisconsin. :neener:

Of course you guys have CCW and we don't. But.. what the hell is up with dirt roads. My aunt and uncle live in a pretty upscale housing division (Somewhere in the suburban areas surrounding Detroit) and the main road leading to it is unpaved. I guess they wet it and compact it every few months with a steam roller. It's not the only dirt road i've seen in the area either, heh.

Delmar
April 29, 2005, 08:55 PM
dloken - ask em about "Michigan Basements" :D

Shear_stress
April 29, 2005, 09:12 PM
Weather ain't an issue. I lived in Colorado. One time it went from 75 and sunny to below freezing and snowing. In four hours. In May. That made for a good story for the folks back home. Once went road biking when it was 7 degrees F, but that's another story. All I can say is I don't recommend doing that.

"Aw, Sheer Stress......should-a-would-a-could-a moved to Texas! We don' need no steenking safey checks on pistols here!"

In the words of Principal Seymour Skinner,"Wanna-shanna-gonna". I tried but the school wouldn't bite. Learned my lesson and slipped a couple of crispy Benjamins in the Michigan app (just kidding!)

I had a fun experience at the gun store today. A guy was picking up his registered Bushmaster carbine (the real deal, in other words) after getting some work done and I got to ask him:"Hey, can I take a look at that thing--'cause I'm thinking of getting one when I move out of state." Heh-heh-heh.

WillBrayJr
April 29, 2005, 09:30 PM
Here's alittle info on Michigan. It really sucks a huge floppy donkey----. Seriously you better hope you don't need to defend yourself because you'll end up in jail if you do. The only way you can legally defend yourself is if you're at Death's door. If you are planning on defending the home with a firearm don't hesitate at all. You see the intruder drop him or her instantly, if you don't and the state gets wind of it you'll end up facing 1st Degree Murder charges.

On to NFA firearms. You can own come NFA firearms via a ClassIII license. You have to submit a application plus a $300.00 fee which is not refundable if you're denied after 6 months of waiting. It also cost $300.00 a year to keep the license plus you have to allow LE into your home anytime they desire to see if the weapons are secured.


I suggest moving to Indiana :)

Shear_stress
April 29, 2005, 10:10 PM
"I suggest moving to Indiana'

First things first. Remember, I'm moving from a state where I can't legally buy an out of state S&W Model 15 through auctionarms, to say nothing of all those nice NFA goodies.

" The moose sportsmens club is always happy to get new members that like to shoot. Trap is our biggest draw but we do ccw clases and have pistol & rifle ranges. Its a great club. Let me know if interested.'''

Sounds like a nice place. What kind of range have they got and what fees do they charge?

Stevie-Ray
April 29, 2005, 11:16 PM
Oh, and when you get here, don't forget to take a trip to the bridge. Much better than that golden piece of crap you Cali's got. Yah, I was one of the fortunate to actually go to the top of the south tower of Big Mac. (Had a cousin in the Bridge Authority) Watched a good portion of the annual Bridge Walk on Labor Day from a vantage point seen by very few, after following George Bush Sr. across. It was one of the greatest experiences of my life.

WillBrayJr
April 29, 2005, 11:46 PM
Shear_Stress,

It's the 1st paragraph of my post you need to read carefully. My 2nd paragraph was just in case you were going to ask, you would already have your answer.

jefnvk
April 30, 2005, 02:27 AM
Ice fishing is also great fun, think of it as an addon to driving your car onto ice. Make sure you pick a day that is about twenty below, with 40 mile an hour winds :p


On to the Wisconsin guy - who needs paved roads? You can't tell if they're paved for half the year, anyways. When the snow falls, there cease to be paved roads :D And while the NFA thingy sucks, I do think many more would enjoy the CCW than the MG's.

Stevie - missed a chance to go up. Was at a summer engineering camp at Lake State, and we toured the bridge. Played 'I'm thinking of a number between one and a thousand' for the two to go. I was the third closest :banghead: Did get to go down though the concrete legs, though, which is still cool.

On to NFA firearms. You can own come NFA firearms via a ClassIII license. You have to submit a application plus a $300.00 fee which is not refundable if you're denied after 6 months of waiting. It also cost $300.00 a year to keep the license plus you have to allow LE into your home anytime they desire to see if the weapons are secured.

Is that like an add on or something, to the C&R to allow you to own NFA goodies? When the local MG guy was explaining it, he didn't mention that part. Sucks if it is.

dloken
April 30, 2005, 02:53 AM
Currently pretty much all NFA firearms fit the bill to become C&R weapons based on price. All the ATF needs to do is declare all transferable MGs to be C&R and you'd be good to go in Michigan for MGs, heh.

erik the bold
April 30, 2005, 09:44 AM
Seriously you better hope you don't need to defend yourself because you'll end up in jail if you do. The only way you can legally defend yourself is if you're at Death's door. If you are planning on defending the home with a firearm don't hesitate at all. You see the intruder drop him or her instantly, if you don't and the state gets wind of it you'll end up facing 1st Degree Murder charges.

You are basing this assumption on what data? 1st degree is:

(a) Murder perpetrated by means of poison, lying in wait, or any other willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing.

(b) Murder committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, arson, criminal sexual conduct in the first, second, or third degree, child abuse in the first degree, a major controlled substance offense, robbery, carjacking, breaking and entering of a dwelling, home invasion in the first or second degree, larceny of any kind, extortion, kidnapping, or vulnerable adult abuse in the first and second degree under section 145n.

As I am currently doing research on this subject, please direct me to which of the MCL's covers this.

I have not heard of a case in Michigan where a good shoot was prosecuted.

SteveS
April 30, 2005, 01:17 PM
Seriously you better hope you don't need to defend yourself because you'll end up in jail if you do. The only way you can legally defend yourself is if you're at Death's door. If you are planning on defending the home with a firearm don't hesitate at all. You see the intruder drop him or her instantly, if you don't and the state gets wind of it you'll end up facing 1st Degree Murder charges.

This is not true. While there is a duty to retreat while not in the home, it only exists if you can safely do so. Plus, there are many prosecutors that wouldn't bother trying to prosecute someone in a defensive shooting unless it was very bad. There was a case here about 5 or 6 years ago where someone chased the BG for several blocks before killing him. The prosecutor, citing the fleeing felon rule, did not charge the guy.

greyfeathers
April 30, 2005, 01:46 PM
Shear Stress
The public is welcome to come out and shoot trap any time during our regular
trap shoot times. Just about every Sat. & Sund, all year. We shoot in just about any kind of weather year round. The charge is 3.50 per round. Walso do league shoots & team shoots. A member gets the comb. to the gate lock
and clubhouse and can go out and shoot handgun & Rifle anytime during day-
light hours. Once we go to daylight savings time we also shoot trap on wed.from about 4pm to dusk. A person can come and shoot rifle & pistol once
as a guest, but needs to join the club after that. We dont enforce that all that much if they seem sincere about possibly joining. We have a 100 yrd.
rifle range that will prob. get bigger, and the pistol range is being improved
as well. We have a great hog roast every summer, and shoot shotgun games
during the roast and its alot of fun. To join the sportsmens club you do have to join the main moose lodge and that will cost about 100.00 bucks but after that its just 35 bucks a year. The initiation fee for the sportsmens club I think
is $100.00 and then, $50.00 a yr. If you are allready a moose lodge member
in any state, then you have that out of the way.

WillBrayJr
April 30, 2005, 01:56 PM
Quote me all you wan't because I can care less :neener: The fact remains if you get jumped and start fighting back right away, you'll end up getting into trouble. I have seen several cases like that.

You won't change my opinion on Michigan. The state still sucks a huge floppy donkey---- ;)

SteveS
April 30, 2005, 03:32 PM
Quote me all you wan't because I can care less The fact remains if you get jumped and start fighting back right away, you'll end up getting into trouble. I have seen several cases like that.

You won't change my opinion on Michigan. The state still sucks a huge floppy donkey----


Well, I can't argue with your evidence and logical, reasoned analysis. :neener:

pezo
April 30, 2005, 06:43 PM
JUst look at the name of our state "Michigan" it is awfully close to "Michigun" coincidence I THINK NOT. :scrutiny:

WillBrayJr
April 30, 2005, 06:58 PM
Michigan or Michigun, call the state whatever you wan't because the laws are still rediculous. It's not the gun laws that are bad.

ecbaatz
April 30, 2005, 08:01 PM
Mr Bray,

I am not sure I understand your reasoning for your comments. You complain in a about our laws in a thread where someone asked to be told about Michigan and yet you do not live here.

You may not like all our limitations on concealed carry however unlike you, who live in Indiana, I do not need a permit to carry a pistol, only to carry a concealed pistol. You however need a permit to carry at all.

So yes I don't agree with all the limitations on concealled carry but am greatful I can and will do what I can to change them. Not just complain about them or make idiot comments about them.

I also noticed that you live in Northern Indiana , for now. Why, planning on moving out of state and if so where?

Eric

WillBrayJr
April 30, 2005, 08:28 PM
Well Ecbaatz,

I have lived in Michigan for 12 years and moved not too long ago. In Indiana you don't need a permit either to carry on your property or business. Just like Michigan elsewhere you need a permit.

I'm not moving out of Indiana. In fact I'm getting ready to move into an apartment. As to where is really non of your business. I smell a troublemaker :fire:

Darkmind
April 30, 2005, 09:45 PM
Just FYI, you don't need a permit or a license to carry on your own propriety.

jefnvk
April 30, 2005, 09:53 PM
Bray, you really oughta tell us what the issues are, or quit bashing. All you have done is throw out generalities that could be said of pretty much any state, and when refuted, you reply that no one can change your mind.

And I am still interested in where this $300 per year to keep a MG thing comes from. I looked through the Michigan laws, and can't seem to find it anywhere.

I, too, smell a troublemaker.

And somehow, to me anyways,
The state still sucks a huge floppy donkey----
is NOT the high road.

michiganfan
April 30, 2005, 09:57 PM
Here is a vacation shot from Boyne Highlands last summer. Harbor Springs and Petosky area. The little lake in the picture is the lake in front of the green on the 18th.

http://photobucket.com/albums/y3/michiganfan/?action=view&current=PIC00020.jpg
michiganfan - photobucket.com

erik the bold
April 30, 2005, 10:14 PM
"Bray" Isn't that the noise a j.....s makes??? :p

Jefnvk - I still can't find anything in the MCL that requires retreat. Can you point me in the right direction ??

jefnvk
April 30, 2005, 11:03 PM
Jefnvk - I still can't find anything in the MCL that requires retreat. Can you point me in the right direction ??
:confused: I never said that, I think that was also Bray. Don't know if it is true or not, as I don't have a CCW.

erik the bold
April 30, 2005, 11:14 PM
Jefnvk,

When you pick up your CPL, by law, they'll give you a copy of "Michigan Firearms Laws." All 169 pages. I've reviewed these, plus done searches on the Michigan Legislature site of the MCL's and cannot find anything pursuant duty to retreat or what constitutes a 'good shoot'

If you have any info, I'd appreciate it.......

ETB - still stuck in Genesee County

rwc
April 30, 2005, 11:15 PM
I just spent a week at MSU in East Lansing. I didn't get more than few blocks from campus, but it seems like a nice college town. I hear the state capitol is next door. Awfully flat looking as you fly in though if mountains are something you enjoy.

I did notice that roughly half the college kids would nod and say hello as you walked by. Not a very objective measure, but better than most areas when it comes to courtious behavior from youth these days.

Stevie-Ray
May 1, 2005, 12:33 AM
I smell a troublemaker So do we. And so far, your "braying" is evidence of it.

WillBrayJr
May 1, 2005, 02:56 PM
Why, Because I told you that your state sucks? I say the same thing about a few other states. Freedom of speech, it's called the first Amendment so get over it :neener: I have not made any negative remarks about anyone.

Barbara
May 1, 2005, 03:40 PM
Plenty of reason for you to stay down there, then, eh?

ecbaatz
May 1, 2005, 08:13 PM
Mr. Bray.

Actually you did do some name calling. You called me a troublemaker. Although I was just asking some questions and stating some facts. Politely or at least so I thought.

Yes, you can carry on your property or place of business without a permit in Indiana. But just think every time you leave one of those places, You CAN'T unless you have your permit. I can in Michigan.

And no I am not interested in causing trouble or where you live exactly. A general area of Indiana would be sufficient. I just want to know the area so I can avoid it or should I say people like you.

I understand the right to freedom of speech. I spent 20 years in the Navy defending your right. I currently have two sons in the Military, one in the army and one in the marine corps, again defending "your" freedom of speech. May I ask what you have done to defend or protect it? However, a private board which this is can limit your speech. I am surprised that they haven't done it yet.

Eric

WillBrayJr
May 1, 2005, 09:51 PM
If you get caught without a permit you will get in trouble unless you're on active duty with the military or in LE then you're exempt, gun laws are listed on the NRA's website. The only state you can you can varry without a permit is Vermont.

Wan'ting to know where someone lives during an argument 99% means someone is looking to start trouble.

Barbara
May 1, 2005, 10:10 PM
You can carry without a permit in Alaska. Open carry in a vehicle with a CPL is legal in Michigan. Open carry on your own property without one is legal. Open carry everywhere else is legal, but you can be arrested for disturbing the peace if anyone squawks about it.

Barbara
May 1, 2005, 10:13 PM
One thing to keep in mind about moving to Michigan is that some of our neighbors are obnoxious. :neener:

(strange but true fact: Ohio and Michigan once fought a war, which Ohio claims to have won..but considering they got Toledo and we got the UP, we're pretty happy about the end result. No one was killed and if I remember correctly, only one shot was even fired.)

Tag
May 2, 2005, 12:14 AM
PS - I am finding that north of the bridge is pretty much a whole other state.

It's great up here.

The NRA instructors in my CCW class spoke at some length about the Castle doctrin, and I do not remember hearing anything about a duty to retreat.

grampster
May 2, 2005, 12:31 AM
Newaygo County. Less than 4 hours to anything. But, then, why would you wanna? Rivers and streams for trout, lakes for for panfish, pike and bass. Farmland, prairies, oak barrens and piney woods for elk, bear, deer, turkey and small game. Don't need a range. Walk or drive 5 minutes and you're in the Manistee National Forest or State Forest. Small towns, friendly people. Warm in the summer (relaxing, hiking, biking, boating etc) and snowy and cold in the winter (snomobiling, skiing etc) Camping anytime. The Great Lakes. Da UP, eh?
The Founders made America. God made Michigan. :D

Barbara
May 2, 2005, 05:51 AM
Shooting stuff to do in Michigan:
http://www.firearmsalliance.org/phpEventCalendar/index.php?month=5&year=2005

If anyone has new events to add, send them to calendar@firearmsalliance.org

jefnvk
May 2, 2005, 12:59 PM
If you get caught without a permit you will get in trouble unless you're on active duty with the military or in LE then you're exempt, gun laws are listed on the NRA's website.

So this is different from Indiana how?

Why, Because I told you that your state sucks? I say the same thing about a few other states. Freedom of speech, it's called the first Amendment so get over it

So, since I could apply most of your criteria to Indiana as well, your state sucks too :rolleyes:

And last I checked, Freedom of Speech applies to Congress not making laws. NOT to private property. YOU get over people calling you out.

SteveS
May 2, 2005, 04:07 PM
I've reviewed these, plus done searches on the Michigan Legislature site of the MCL's and cannot find anything pursuant duty to retreat or what constitutes a 'good shoot'

I don't believe it is a statutory duty. IIRC, it is either a common law duty or it is in the jury instructions for self-defense. I will look it up later this week when I have more time. You have to remember that you only have to retreat when you can safely do so. I believe it is to prevent people from chasing the BG down and shooting him in the back. Additionally, most prosecutors don't like criminals and won't go out of their way to harass citizens that are acting in self-defense.

ecbaatz
May 2, 2005, 06:39 PM
Mr Bray,

I never started or intend to start an argument however, I guess based on the dictionary definition we are.

ar·gu·ment (är“gy…-m…nt) n. 1.a. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate. b. A quarrel; a dispute. c. Archaic. A eason or matter for dispute or contention. 2.a. A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood. b. A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason

That was never my intent. I also do not believe that asking where someone is from, is a start of an argument.

Also you never answered my question on what you have done to protect or preserve your right to free speech. Is this because you are relying on others to do so for you. In that case, you are welcome.

One last thing, I had a piece of advise given to me which does apply here.

"Do not argue with a fool, he will lower you to his level and then beat you with experience".

Based on this I will not pursue this topic any further. Good luck Mr. Bray, in all of your endeavors and whereever you may decide to live.

Sincerely,

Eric

Atticus
May 2, 2005, 06:54 PM
The REAL things you need.
1) A Chevy or Ford truck (never to be washed...ever)
2) One flannel shirt
3) McKenzie Brothers video or "Fargo" - to get the lingo down eh....don't ya know. :neener:

Stevie-Ray
May 2, 2005, 09:17 PM
1) A Chevy or Ford truck (never to be washed...ever) I beg your pardon. BOTH my Ford trucks are generally clean. ;) In fact I hate for them to be dirty. :D

grampster
May 2, 2005, 09:51 PM
In Cedar Springs, Michigan, a couple of years ago. A drunken, babbling young man was in the back yard of a homeowner. He was approaching the individual's house mumbling threats and invectives. The homeowner stepped outside his slider onto the deck and advised the trespasser to leave. The homeowner advised him that he was armed. The homeowner went back into the house, retrieved a handgun and told his wife to call police. The intruder came up on the homeowner's deck and continued to approach the door, continuing to mumble threats and invectives. The homeowner shot him and the trespasser staggered into the yard and died.
The police did not show up until about a half hour later.
The prosecutor declined to charge the homeowner, as in Michigan, a deck is considered your home. The homeowner did not have to retreat inside his house, although he did. The homeowner believed he and his family were in danger of their lives and was found to have taken the appropriate action.
I believe one should never, ever resort to shooting someone unless you believe in your heart of hearts that it is necessary. You will be judged by an authority if you do. You need to understand that. If you do what you think is right, you can only stand on that.
In the above case, I would have done exactly what the homeowner did except when I went back into the house after the warning, I would have locked the door. If the trespasser started to try and enter, I would have killed him. I would have waited longer than the homeowner did. But that is just what I would have done, probably because of the expereience that I have had with violence. Each man will be judged by the action he takes based on the threat that he his comfortable with handling. One should spend some time thinking about this so that if the time comes, one will take the appropriate action with a clear conscience and a firm purpose.

WT
May 3, 2005, 03:45 PM
Chuck was sitting in an airplane when another fellow took a seat beside him. The new guy was an absolute wreck...pale, hands shaking, biting his nails and moaning in fear.

"Hey pal, what's the matter?" Chuck asked.

"Oh man...I've been transferred to Michigan," the other guy answered,
"there's crazy people in Michigan...and they have shootings, gangs, race riots, drugs, the highest crime rate..."

"Hold on" Chuck interrupted, "I've lived in Michigan all my life and it is not as bad as the media says. Find a nice home, go to work, mind your own business, enroll your kids in a good school and it's as safe as anywhere in the world."

The other passenger relaxed and stopped shaking for a moment and said,
"Oh thank you. I've been worried to death but if you live there and say it's OK, I'll take your word for it. What do you do for a living?"

"Me?", said Chuck, "I'm a tail gunner on a bread truck in Dearborn."

erik the bold
May 3, 2005, 03:53 PM
WT, that was great.........LMFAO!!!

Rupestris
May 3, 2005, 04:06 PM
YOU KNOW YOU'RE FROM MICHIGAN IF:

1. You've never met any celebrities.
2. "Vacation" means going to Cedar Point.
3. At least 1 member of your family disowns you the week of the Michigan/Michigan State game.
4. Half the change in your pocket is Canadian....eh?
5. You drive 86 mph on the highway and pass on the right.
6. Your idea of a traffic jam is 40 cars waiting to pass an orange
barrel.
7. You know how to play (and pronounce) Euchre.
8. It's easy to get VERNOR'S ginger ale and SANDERS hot fudge sauce,and Faygo pop.
9. You know how to pronounce "Mackinac".
10. You've had to switch on the "heat" and the "A/C" in the same day.
11. You bake with SODA and drink POP.
12. The movie "Escanaba in Da Moonlight" wasn't funny.You consider it a documentary.
13. Your little league game was snowed out.
14. The word "thumb" has geographical, rather than anatomical significance.
15. You show people where you grew up by pointing to a spot on your right and.
16. Traveling coast-to-coast means driving from Port Huron to Muskegon.
17. You measure distance in minutes.
18. When giving directions, you refer to "A Michigan Left."
19. You know that Kalamazoo not only exists, but isn't far from Hell.
20. Your year has 2 seasons: Winter and Construction.
21. Home Depot on any Saturday is busier than toy stores at Christmas.
22. You know when it has rained because of the smell of worms.
23. Owning a Japanese car was a hangin' offense in your hometown.
24. You believe that "down south" means Toledo.
25. You probably know the words to The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.
26. You know what someone is refering to when they say "Por-churn".

Rupestris
May 3, 2005, 04:11 PM
Michigan Temprature Conversion Chart

@ +70 degrees
Texans turn on the heat and unpack the thermal underwear.
In Michigan, people go swimming in the lakes.
@ +60 degrees
North Carolinians try to turn on the heat.
People in Michigan plant gardens.
@ +50 degrees
Californians shiver uncontrollably.
People in Michigan sunbathe.
@ +40 degrees
Italian & English cars won't start.
People in Michigan drive with the windows down.
@ +32 degrees
Distilled water freezes.
Lake Michigan water gets thicker.
@ +20 degrees
Floridians wear coats, underwear, gloves, and woolly hats.
People in Michigan throw on a flannel shirt.
@ +15 degrees
Philadelphia landlords finally turn up the heat.
People in Michigan have the last cookout before it gets cold.
@ +10 degrees
People in Miami all die.
People from Michigan lick a flagpole.
@ 0 degrees
Californians fly to Mexico.
People in Michigan look for their winter coats.
@ -20 degrees
Hollywood disintegrates.
The Girl Scouts in Michigan are selling cookies door to door.
@ -60 degrees
Polar bears begin to evacuate the Arctic.
Michigan Boy Scouts postpone "Winter Survival" classes...
until it gets cold enough.
@ -80 degrees
Mount St. Helen's freezes.
People in Michigan rent some videos.
@ -100 degrees
Santa Claus abandons the North Pole.
Michiganians get frustrated because they can't thaw a keg.
@ -297 degrees
Microbial life no longer survives on dairy products.
Cows in Michigan complain about farmers with cold hands.
@ -460 degrees
ALL atomic motion stops (absolute zero in the Kelvin scale).
People in Michigan start saying, "Cold 'nuff for ya?"
@ -500 degrees
Hell freezes over.
The Detroit Lions win the Super Bowl!!!

grampster
May 3, 2005, 05:26 PM
Rupestris,

You mean the Detroit Liedowns?

41mag
May 3, 2005, 06:04 PM
Awesome !!Rupestris!!

"lick a flagpole"

*sigh* Ah the memories. :cool:

jefnvk
May 3, 2005, 06:14 PM
No, licking flagpoles is never a good idea.

On the other had, it was 30 and snowing the other day, and I was wearing a T-Shirt, shorts and sandals to class. The out-of-staters did think I was crazy.

OneFreeTexan
May 3, 2005, 10:58 PM
A few years ago a man and his grown son where in an all night Chinese restaurant, when some young man came in and started trouble threatening other customers, etc. The father went home to his apartment, got his gun came back and shot the troublemaker. The dead trouble maker whose nickname was "Killer" , was described as a "good kid". Don't believe the shooter did any jail time. oh......this was in Muskegon.
Another, a guy was sitting on his couch, legs up on the coffee table, pistol laying on the table. He's verbally abusing his wife. She threatens to shoot him. He laughs at her. She picks up the gun, one shot, right in the forehead.
Got off on self defense even though there had been no police reports of her being abused. bet he had a millisecond to think "aw s*****t"
this was in Muskegon also.
I'm not quite sure what this says, but it's interesting :confused:

Barbara
May 4, 2005, 06:01 AM
It says people in Muskegon are typically very polite to each other. :)

Rupestris
May 4, 2005, 04:38 PM
Duty to Retreat/Reasonable Means of Escape

I e-mailed the State Law Library in regards to this an the reply is as follows:

Your question has been forwarded to the State Law Library.

Thank you for your inquiry. Michigan Compiled Laws, section 764.16, permits a private person to make an arrest, but it does not address the use of force or the duty to retreat. For your convenience, we have attached a copy of MCL section 764.16 for your review.

According to the Defender Trial Book, published by the State Appellate Defender Office:

"One who is within his dwelling house has no duty to retreat and may use deadly force in self-defense
as long as the use of deadly force is reasonably necessary. However, the dwelling house exception is
limited to the home and its attached appurtenances, and does not extend to the outlying areas within
the curtilage of the home. People v Riddle, 467 Mich 116 (2002)."

"An illegal and forceful entry into one's home is enougt to justify use of deadly force where the
occupant fears for his or her safety. Proof of a separate assault after the forcible entry is not
necessary. People v Kohler, 113 Mich App 594 (1981)."

These two cases were decided by the Michigan Supreme Court and Court of Appeals, respectively. If you wish to conduct further case law research, we encourage you to visit a law library or seek the services of an attorney. We have attached a list of Michigan law libraries that are open to the public. You may also visit the Michigan Courts website at www.courts.michigan.gov.

Information provided here should not be considered a substitute for legal research or for obtaining the professional services of an attorney.

PLEASE NOTE: As of January 12, 2004, the new hours of the Library of Michigan, State Law Library are 1:00 to 5:00 p.m. Monday through Friday. Consequently, our response time may be somewhat slower. The reduced hours are the result of budget constraints and staffing shortages. We regret any inconvenience to our patrons, and welcome your questions and comments.

Library of Michigan
State Law Library
525 W. Ottawa St.
P. O. Box 30007
Lansing MI 48909
Phone: (517) 373-0630
Fax: (517) 373-3915
E-mail: lmlawlib@michigan.gov

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