Shotguns Protect National Security ???


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David
April 28, 2005, 01:39 AM
During a security scare at the White House today (it seems something suspicious showed up on the radar), these Uniformed Secret Service Officers were protecting the White House with SHOTGUNS. :what:

It appears that both shotguns are "pump action" with the one on the left being a "short barrel" model.

Intertesting, to say the least, that in these days of "high tech" weapons, an old standby, the shotgun, still has its place in protecting the White House!

:D :scrutiny: :D

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PMDW
April 28, 2005, 02:03 AM
The Guards at Kings Bay Naval Base still carry shotguns while guarding nuclear weapons.

Darkmind
April 28, 2005, 02:04 AM
NO Fing WAY! where did you get that pic. The guy on the left looks like a really good friend of mine. We were in 2ed battalion 8th Marines together.


The Guards at Kings Bay Naval Base still carry shotguns while guarding nuclear weapons.

That we did. And they still do. :D

psyopspec
April 28, 2005, 02:10 AM
Do you have source identifying them as secret service at the whitehouse?

David
April 28, 2005, 02:25 AM
That photo was included in this story from AOL News:

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050427141909990004

False Alarm Puts White House on Alert
Radar Blip Sends Bush and Cheney to Secure Locations
By JENNIFER LOVEN, AP

WASHINGTON (April 27) - President Bush was rushed to a secure underground White House bunker and Vice President Dick Cheney was whisked outside the compound Wednesday because of a ''radar anomaly'' - perhaps a flock of birds or pocket of rain - that was mistaken for a plane flying in restricted airspace.

Secret Service officers respond to Wednesday's security alert at the White House. The president was rushed to a bunker. (NOTE: This is the caption for the photo shown in the above posting)

The late morning scare, apparently the first time Bush had been taken to the secure area since Sept. 11, 2001, was determined within minutes to be a false alarm, and business quickly returned to normal.

There have been similar alarms before, sparked by a blip on a radar screen that looks like an aircraft venturing into the area around the White House that is off-limits to aircraft.

In November 2003, the White House was briefly evacuated while Air Force fighter jets were scrambled to investigate a tripped radar alert that also triggered fears - also groundless - of an airspace violation. Bush was in Britain at the time.

This time, though, Bush was in the Oval Office when radar picked up something. Helicopters were sent to check it out and found there was no errant aircraft, said Brian Roehrkasse, a Homeland Security Department spokesman.

Before that could be confirmed, though, the Secret Service leapt into action.

They moved the president and vice president out of danger. Officers toting shotguns raced around the compound taking up positions. A surface-to-air missile battery recently installed on the roof of a nearby building was raised to fire position. Some White House staff members were evacuated from the West Wing. Tour groups were hustled out of the executive mansion and a park across the street from the White House was cleared.

Some parts of the compound, such as the area where the press is housed, were not notified of the threat or moved.

There are a few security incidents at the White House each year, and many of those involve the threat of a plane in restricted airspace. At least a half-dozen such threats have occurred during Bush's presidency, either at the White House, Camp David, or events outside Washington.

In 1994, when Bill Clinton was president, a Maryland man stole a light plane and crashed it into the south side of the presidential mansion in the middle of the night, killing himself but injuring no one else. In 1974, an Army private landed a stolen helicopter on the South Lawn. He suffered shotgun wounds and was taken away for psychiatric examination.

There are other types of attempted security breaches as well, including suspicious packages and ''gate-jumpers'' who try to force their way onto the White House grounds. In February 2001, a man fired several shots outside the White House fence and was shot in the leg by authorities. In 1976, a man tried unsuccessfully to ram his pickup truck through the White House gate.

Wednesday was the first time the president was known to have been taken to the bunker - a super-secure, super-secret facility built in case of emergency for the president, his family and a small number of staff deemed essential to running the government - since the night of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. After flying from the Florida classroom where he learned of the attacks to Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana and then to Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska, Bush returned to Washington only to be awakened by Secret Service agents who hurried him and his wife, Laura, underground - also because of a false alarm about an unidentified plane.

On Wednesday, Bush was in the shelter for only ''a very short amount of time,'' said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.

Cheney's movement out of the White House and to a secure undisclosed location couldn't have taken him far. His limousine was seen re-entering the compound gates immediately after the situation was resolved.

It wasn't known what caused the radar anomaly, said Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Greg Marting.

''We appreciate the precautionary steps that the Secret Service took,'' McClellan said.
******

Andrew Rothman
April 28, 2005, 02:29 AM
Oooookay. Shotguns vs. incoming aircraft? :rolleyes:

Phantom Warrior
April 28, 2005, 02:56 AM
Oooookay. Shotguns vs. incoming aircraft?

In all fairness, White House security probably ALL goes on alert when there is a threat, from the guys on the ground with shotguns to the SAM battery on the roof. And who's to say that the low-flying plane isn't a distraction to cover a few guys sneaking onto the grounds. Or vice-versa. When you are dealing with people that play for keeps it makes sense to be extra cautious.

Guy B. Meredith
April 28, 2005, 03:30 AM
CNN or some such showed a film of several guards milling about. All appeared to carry short barrel pump shotguns.

Parallax
April 28, 2005, 03:48 AM
OMG! That guy on the left has a shotgun not of legal barrel length! :rolleyes:

Oooookay. Shotguns vs. incoming aircraft?

What if it was a paradrop of ninja assassins? Gotta be prepared :D

David
April 28, 2005, 06:01 AM
I found this photo from Reuters showing an Uniformed Secret Service Officer with a shotgun (it looks like one of the same guys from the photo above).

:eek: :uhoh: :scrutiny:

Can anyone ID the make / model of the shotgun in this photo?

jobu07
April 28, 2005, 07:33 AM
Looks like maybe a Remington with a ghost ring sight set up?

Gunnutz13
April 28, 2005, 09:04 AM
for the Secret Service and White House police when it comes to aircraft flying into the restricted airspace...seems to me, in the seconds that they got to make a "shoot-no shoot decision"...they always seem to hesitate and the perp gets through ( like in 1974 & 1994 ). And if the guys on the roof do let loose, the explosion and wreakage will rain down on tourists and other landmarks. And just how big is the perimeter of the restricted airspace ?

bogie
April 28, 2005, 09:12 AM
1) Don't buy into the "aircraft = flying missile" bit... My friend's Cessena 182 can hold the pilot, a full tank of gas, and a few hundred pounds of cargo. Not a few thousand. It won't be a firecracker, but it ain't gonna do all that much damage either.

2) You don't want Achmed and his team sneaking onto the grounds while everyone is watching the sky.

3) Shotguns are VERY effective at close range. Tell ya what... I'll take a Mossy 500, and you can have an Uzi. At 25 yards, my target is going to look like swiss cheese. With 00 buck, figure you're launching 54 pellets total with 6 rounds. With #4, whoa...

foghornl
April 28, 2005, 09:26 AM
If someone had tried to say parachute onto the White House grounds from a small plane...

A new "Sporting Clays" type of game, perhaps? :evil:


p.s. NEVER doubt the effectiveness of a shotty in well-trained hands.

LaEscopeta
April 28, 2005, 09:36 AM
I agree on the need to be prepared for multiple attacks, and different types of attacks. We’ve seen this many times; car bomb and suicide bomber in Bali, car bomb and stinger missile in Kenya, 5 phone bombs on trains in Spain, car bomb and gunmen attacks in Saudi Arabia, 4 (maybe 5? 6?) planes on September 11, foiled attempt for bombs on multiple planes over the Pacific in 2000, dual truck bombs in Kenya & Tanzania, etc. Not to mention long standing terrorist tactic of setting off a small bomb first, then a bigger one when the rescuers respond.

HighVelocity
April 28, 2005, 09:57 AM
What y'all don't realize is that those shotties are loaded with thermonuclear laser guided buckshot. :neener:

BriGuy1
April 28, 2005, 10:53 AM
I heard that Corbon is coming out with thermonuclear buckshot that is +P rated. Should be much more effective than standard thermonuclear buckshot.

WT
April 28, 2005, 11:30 AM
It was a UFO. No big deal. UFO's have been buzzing Washington DC for the last 50 years.

http://ufocasebook.com/washingtondc1952.html

Marshall & Sanow noted that #00 buckshot or 12 ga slugs work well on aliens. Hence, the guards at the White House were well prepared.

Lone_Gunman
April 28, 2005, 11:47 AM
1) Don't buy into the "aircraft = flying missile" bit... My friend's Cessena 182 can hold the pilot, a full tank of gas, and a few hundred pounds of cargo. Not a few thousand. It won't be a firecracker, but it ain't gonna do all that much damage either.


Yea, but what if the plane is full of all those weapons of mass destruction we didnt find in Iraq???

nomadboi
April 28, 2005, 11:50 AM
Defending America's leadership against kamikaze waterfowl...

Khaotic
April 28, 2005, 11:57 AM
Didn't someone dump a light plane of the same small-plane 'class' as a Cessna on the white house lawn not long ago ?

As for shotguns, the speedy response (you don't have to aim so precisely) combined with multiple hit knockdown effect, even against a target wearing body armor makes it kind of a no-brainer for close-in protection.

There's also a lot less chance of a blowthrough round clipping a bystander or damaging the pretty artwork in the halls of the white house itself.

When you think about it, for their mission objective at the time, it's a pretty good weapons choice, an added benefit to the short range is that there's no encouragement to focus on a target that's out of threat range.

Just some thoughts,
-K

Brian Dale
April 28, 2005, 12:07 PM
Yes, shotguns for close-in, two-legged threats.

Other people nearby, with other weapons, are to deal with more distant or larger threats.

Old Fuff
April 28, 2005, 12:14 PM
I see that the got the president and V.P. out of harm's way, but didn't do anything to protect the (mostly) liberal press. Should we pray for an attack??

(Grin) my smilies don't work.

brickeyee
April 28, 2005, 01:26 PM
The press also does not report/does not see all the security activities around the White House. The Uniformed Secret Service is out in public and easily observed.

El Tejon
April 28, 2005, 01:28 PM
I'm sure there is a fine assortment of weapons around the White House. :D

PrudentGT
April 28, 2005, 02:32 PM
Yeah, I loved the line "Some parts of the compound, such as the area where the press is housed, were not notified of the threat or moved." Understatement makes for the best humor.

Oh, and the SS needs to head over to head over to SCOTUS when they're done running around the white house lawn and formally give "judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches long has... reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia," which is, of couse, the crux of the Miller decision.

Bart Noir
April 28, 2005, 03:23 PM
In the TV reports on this incident, I saw one uniformed officer with a FN P90. He was dressed in dark fatigues, wore a baseball style had. Almost thought we had a Stargate Team guarding the Prez. Heck, maybe we do.

Bart Noir

pinetree64
April 28, 2005, 04:20 PM
I've seen acouple photos with a SS guy holding one of the FN Carbines, you know the butt ugly ones designed to replace pistols...

David
April 28, 2005, 05:36 PM
Here's another interesting photo taken during the alert (can anyone ID the weapon in this photo?).

Caption from this AP photo:

"A Secret Service Counter Assault Team member inside the White House grounds responds to a security alert yesterday that prompted President Bush to be moved from the Oval Office after reports that an unidentified aircraft had entered a no-fly zone around the White House compound."

Please Note: Notice the official White House fire hydrant ... AND ... the official White House security dog in the SAME photo -- Coincidence ??? -- I think not !!!

:neener: ;) :neener:

Darkmind
April 28, 2005, 08:17 PM
That there would look like a P90. Maybe, maybe not. :D

saltydog
April 28, 2005, 10:24 PM
3) Shotguns are VERY effective at close range. Tell ya what... I'll take a Mossy 500, and you can have an Uzi. At 25 yards, my target is going to look like swiss cheese. With 00 buck, figure you're launching 54 pellets total with 6 rounds. With #4, whoa...

I'll agree to that, I own both a shotgun and a subgun. Up close I will take the shotgun any day. Lucky the Anti's have not figured out that the good old shotgun shoots 20 rounds of #1 buck with one pull of the trigger! It doesn't take me long to pump out 8 rounds of the stuff! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Farnham
April 29, 2005, 12:00 AM
Some parts of the compound, such as the area where the press is housed, were not notified of the threat or moved.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! :D :D :D

They thought to evacuate the PARK ACROSS THE STREET before they thought to notify the press leeches! Man, I love that...who says the SS don't know what they're doin'? :evil:

S/F

Farnham

David
April 29, 2005, 01:42 AM
I find it amazing that the basic firearms technology that helped "tame the old west" of the 1800s -- the shotgun -- is still put to very good use to help protect the White House in 2005.

:D :scrutiny: :D

In this day of technology becoming obsolete in a a matter of a couple of years or so (i.e. computers, etc.), it says alot that the basic shotgun technology is still highly useful today!

Horsesense
April 29, 2005, 02:12 PM
The shotgun is a very good at what it dose. However there is probably a healthy dose of the “dog and pony effect” going on the pictures you are seeing. I wouldn’t doubt that the agents that came into the Oval Office to get the president were also holding shotguns because the uncommon-ness an agent holding a SG speaks to the subconscious of even the President… “This is different, he has a big gun, I must immediately stop what I am doing and follow instructions” not that the president was in any fear of the agent and his gun but that urgency of the situation would be immediately understood by the W.

The pictures I have seen seem to be agents out in the open with a shotgun. That brings several thoughts to my mind:

1. Dog and pony effect
2. As opposed to an “assault weapon” this is a defensive weapon and the person you are seeing is assigned a zone to defend…period. If mushroom clouds begin sprouting up around the city, you stay at your post and defend your zone.
3. You can yell over a bull horn and be ignored of you can speak normally while holding a shotgun and be obeyed.

entropy
April 29, 2005, 08:17 PM
Jobu07, the shotgun in the second picture (Shorty bbl. pump) is an M590 or 591(issue version of the M500) Mossberg. You can see the lifter hinge pin in the side of the reciever, and the ghost ring is mounted further forward than most 870's are, to accomodate the tang safety. Plus the forestock is of the Mossy type, as is the extended mag.

rwc
April 29, 2005, 10:49 PM
Just a guess...

1. Uniformed Treasury officers on the grounds to respond to BGs on foot (passive barriers will stop most vehicles). Backed up by the special response teams with the less "friendly looking" weapons.
2. A few crew served weapons positioned behind "windows" providing 360* coverage.
3. SAM/TOW teams on the roof.

Good enough to buy the time needed for the tunnel cars to get moving?

LiquidTension
April 30, 2005, 09:44 PM
That last pic is obviously of Dr. Daniel Jackson with a P-90. Weird thing is, Colonel O'Neill gave that dog to a little girl several seasons ago...

spartacus2002
April 30, 2005, 09:57 PM
UFOs buzzing the White House again eh? Well, I hate to be the one to break it to the Secret Service, but a shotgun ain't gonna do jack against Gort!

http://www.jeffbots.com/gort.jpg

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