Building a case to convince an anti - HELP!


Control Group
April 28, 2005, 02:27 PM
OK - I need to get all my ducks in a row.

I'm about to move into an apartment with an old friend of mine. He's a self-proclaimed liberal - but intelligent and rational. Most of his political beliefs he inherited, and he hasn't really thought about them too much. Among them, of course, is a general distaste for guns. In some respects, he's come a long way, insofar as he recognizes that people have the right to own guns, subject to registration, waiting periods, the AWB, etc. This is as compared to his parents who would melt down every gun if they could.

In any event, he's brought up the issue of having guns in the apartment. He's fine with it, but he wants me to not let on to his family that they're there. I can do this. What really is notable to me is that he's opened the door to have a conversation about guns, and knowing that he is intelligent, I think I've got a good chance to show him that the various restrictions he's by default in favor of really don't make any sense.

I'm going to need rock-solid evidence from parties as disinterested as possible (while guncite and packing have tons of great information, citing them directly will be suspect), though. So: can anyone point me to such information? Specifically, I'm going to want to demonstrate what's wrong with waiting periods, registration, full-auto bans, and the AWB. I'm also looking for before-and-after statistics on places that have enacted stringent controls on or complete bans of handguns (NYC, DC, Chicago, England, Australia, anywhere else?), or that have relaxed/eliminated such controls. Numbers on relative suicide rates are especially valuable.

On the abstract argument front, there are the obvious "criminals are already breaking the law," and "would you want to put a 'NO GUNS IN THIS HOUSE' sign on your front lawn?" Are there any other sort of catchy, logically appealing statements that I should keep in mind?

I'm currently looking through the CDC and DoJ websites for information, but I'm having a hard time putting something coherent together, so if you've got any leads in that direction, please share.

Anyway, the two hurdles I see are first that he's been to a range and used guns, but came away sort of "take it or leave it." So there goes the most obvious (and normally most effective) tactic to make a convert. Second, he's lived his entire life in the insulative cotton batting provided by wealthy liberal parents in a the People's Democratic Republic of Madison, so he doesn't have any gut-level connection with wanting to be prepared if the SHTF.

All I've really got going for me is his intelligence and basic rationality. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

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April 28, 2005, 03:05 PM
Theres a book called:
The Second Amendment in Law and History: Historians and Constitutional Scholars on the Right to Bear Arms - by Carl T. Bogus

It covers the historical debates over the 2nd amendment. Its not biased at all. Some sections show Pro 2A points of view, Others do not. Its not a book about what side is right or wrong, but a book that can give insight into both sides of the argument and the reasoning therein.


April 28, 2005, 03:05 PM
My main thought is to take it slow. You don't want to overwhelm him.

Andrew Rothman
April 28, 2005, 03:39 PM
Take him for an evening walk through the less savory parts of Milwaukee. Let him draw his own conclusions. :D

Tom Servo
April 28, 2005, 04:03 PM
Hmm...sounds like a good situation to me. Your friend's willing to think for himself and seems to be somewhat open-minded. Rare traits on the left!

I second the notion of taking it slowly. Lead by example. If he lives in a house where firearms are kept responsibly, he'll most likely warm to the idea over time.

Blasting Ted Nugent records and Charlton Heston soundbites would be a far less wise strategy...

April 28, 2005, 04:18 PM
Edited once I actually read the rest of your post.

April 28, 2005, 04:38 PM
I sent you a private message.


April 28, 2005, 04:44 PM
Take it slow seems good advice.
Secondly, find out what his objection stands on. If that can be demonstrated to be false, then is should be all down hill from there.
If it is guns cause crime, or guns cause accidental death, you can find good data from your own gummint.
Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report is a cool publication and free ( your tax dollars at work. Just Google MMWR.
Similarly, Entrez Pub Med is a comprehensive listing of all medical articles publised in the past ten years or so. You have to learn to use the Limits feature or you will drown in the data.
The Center for Disease Control (CDC) Public Information # is 404-639-3534,
amazingly you can talk to a real human bean.
Likewise, National Center for Health Statistics 301-251-1222. will take you to the British Medical Journal's free archive. You can search it, print out copies of the articles with charts and graphs and 8x10 color glossy photographs, and follow links to related free articles. These articles are reviewed for methodology by other doctors prior to publication, so they are pretty solid data.
Hope this is enough to get you started.
PM me if you need help.

Standing Wolf
April 28, 2005, 08:43 PM
...he's lived his entire life in the insulative cotton batting provided by wealthy liberal parents in a the People's Democratic Republic of Madison, so he doesn't have any gut-level connection with wanting to be prepared if the SHTF.

Hasn't been mugged yet, eh?

April 28, 2005, 10:46 PM
Have you at least taken him shooting? I've found that's the easiest way to change an anti's mind.

April 29, 2005, 08:22 AM
Have you at least taken him shooting? I've found that's the easiest way to change an anti's mind.

BINGO! Forget about the legal and constitutional arguments. People become Second Amendment activists only after they learn to shoot.

April 29, 2005, 08:29 AM
You are in Milwaukee, or you couild try this approach...

Tell him to try unarmed pizza delivery for 90 nights in what the Akron, OH residents no so jokingly refer to as L.A. Lower Akron

I would wager that after about 15 days, he will be a very strong RKBA kind of guy...IF he survives.

Control Group
April 29, 2005, 09:49 AM
First off, thanks svtruth for the great leads - exactly the sort of thing I need!

In any event, I haven't personally taken him shooting, no, but other gunny friends of ours have. I wasn't there, but according to them, his reaction was pretty much a take-it-or-leave-it sort of thing.

On the other hand, I have no idea what guns they were using, and I know at one point he tried a .357. Once. Apparently, he pulled the trigger then promptly put the gun back down. It's possible that's why he wasn't too thrilled; he may have been using too much gun. I suppose I could try getting him to attempt my .22.

April 29, 2005, 11:56 AM
See the latest issue of 'Concealed Carry Magazine'. It has an excellent article on how to deal with 'antis'.

Oleg Volk
April 29, 2005, 12:24 PM

Also, take him shooting with .22 or even Colibris.

April 29, 2005, 12:40 PM
Here is an atricle from Gunblast.Com about Christians Carrying Conceal Weapons. Has some good arguments in it as to owning and carrying.


I have been asked on occasion how I can justify carrying a gun and being a Christian at the same time. This is always posed by someone who is trying to trip me up. It can either be a devout Christian asking the question, or a Hedonistic heathen; it doesn’t matter. There are those who believe, or choose to believe, that a Christian must be absolutely passive in all things. I am not just referring to those Christians who ride a horse and buggy. I have been asked about my views on self defense by Christians of most every denomination. Some are genuinely seeking an answer. Others just want to chastise me for not being as "faithful" as themselves.

Many will accept every modern worldly convenience, but scoff at the idea of trying to protect oneself or the life of another. Their attitude seems to be that "God will protect us". They do have a valid point. God will protect us from the evils of this world, if he so chooses. I would rather have God on my side than a battery of Sidewinder missiles. Indeed, our God can protect us. However, that attitude would lead one to believe that he could walk through Harlem wearing a Ku Klux Klan outfit campaigning for George Wallace, and that "God will protect us". God could get you through that, but Jesus said that we should not tempt God. I tend to agree with his assessment.

In the saddlebag of my motorcycle, I have a tiny cross with the inscription "Faith Moves Mountains", but I also ride in the mountains of East Tennessee and the western United States, and I make sure that my brakes are in good working order. I could just trust God to catch me, but again, that could be construed as tempting God. God gave us brakes on our motorcycles, and that is sufficient.

God can indeed protect us. He can keep us safe on the highways, and he can also keep us safe from those who would intentionally do us harm. I am not speaking of politicians here, but of the evil that is in the souls of some human beings. Be certain in this; there is true evil in this world, and it sometimes manifests itself in the form of a low life predator. Being a Christian, it is difficult to believe that people, made of the same composition of flesh, bone, and blood as ourselves, could be truly evil. We have a Heavenly Father who has filled us with basic goodness, but Jesus said that there are those "who are of the synagogue of Satan".

No sane individual would hesitate to defend himself from a rabid dog or a poisonous snake, but are the two-legged vipers of this world any better than an animal? An animal does that which comes naturally to him. Children of Satan do that which comes naturally to them: that being evil.

Can God protect us from those who would do us harm? Absolutely. However, just as he has given us brakes to save us from the mountain, he has also given to us the tools necessary to defend ourselves, and those whom God has given to us. As Christian men, God not only allows us to protect our families, but he expects us to protect those whom he has placed in our care. This may seem contrary to the mandate for us to "turn the other cheek", and I too have pondered over this. It takes great strength to turn the other cheek as Jesus intended. That is not a commandment to be weak. Jesus did not operate from a position of weakness. In fact, nothing ever happened to him that he did not allow.

God has entrusted us with the care of our brothers, whether those "brothers" be the children that he has given to us, or our wives, or our friends. We could set our children outside in the cold and trust that God would keep them warm. We could abandon them and trust that God will keep them fed. We could let them loose on the city streets or send them off for a week at Neverland, and trust that no sick, evil freak would abuse them. As Christians, we do not do these things to our children. God expects us to clothe them, feed them, and protect them from the evil that is inherent in this world. He gave to us the ability to buy clothes, grow food, build a fire, and to fight off those who would do us harm. In the time that Jesus walked the Earth in the form of man, the short sword was the state-of-the-art weapon. He told his followers that the time of living carefree was over, and that the time had come for those without a sword to "sell his garment and buy one".

Today, we have better than a sword. We have more modern weapons at our disposal, and so does our enemy. Keeping a good rifle to defend one’s homestead and a reliable handgun to ward off evil that finds you when you least expect it is not only prudent, but expected. A Christian man is not mean, hateful, spiteful, or quick to anger. Neither is he weak. God never told us to let the evil in this world run over us like a train. He never told us to stand by idly as those whom he trusted to us are abused or killed. A Christian man who packs a gun does not look for trouble, and avoids it if at all possible. However, evil can seek you out.

A well-armed man operates from a position of strength. He is less likely to have to fight than an unarmed man. The predators in this world look for easy prey. God did not put his people on this Earth to be prey for the sons of Satan. God expects us to stand up for what is right, and he gives us the tools with which to do so. When you defend the life of one of God’s children, you are defending good against evil. Use your good sense and God’s word to avoid trouble. If necessary, use the gun at your side to stand against it.

Written By Jeff Quinn

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