uh, oh - Detroit CCW holder shoots boss


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K-Romulus
April 28, 2005, 04:51 PM
:uhoh:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/4426311/detail.html

Police: Manager Shot At Local Car Dealership

DETROIT -- A manager at a local car dealership was shot by an employee on Thursday morning, police said.

The shooting took place at about 9:30 a.m. at Jefferson Chevrolet, just east of the Interstate 375 exit in Detroit.

Police said the manager and the employee were arguing when at some point the employee pulled out a gun and fired a shot.
The manager suffered a gunshot wound to the stomach, police said.

The employee called 911 and waited for emergency crews and police to arrive.

The manager was taken to Detroit Receiving Hospital, where he remains in temporary serious condition.

Police took the employee into custody without incident. There was no word on what charges he may face.

Detectives were still investigating what led to the shooting. Family members of the victim told Local 4 that the employee accused of firing the shot was among a group of workers that the manager reprimanded on Wednesday for being late to work.

Police said the suspected gunman has a concealed weapons permit and his weapon is registered.

I wonder what happened with the REST of the story . . . :uhoh:

MN doesn't need this right now . . .

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Bufford t. Justice
April 28, 2005, 05:08 PM
Yup, something is missing..... :cuss: Just wait n see what that freakin worthless Granholm does with this!! :banghead:

Gun God
April 28, 2005, 05:10 PM
yeah? So what else is new. This stuff happens all the time. Power hungry idiot thinks he's god then shoots somebody for no reason and then ruins it for the law abiding citizens. I was born in detroit. Moved when I was 13. My dad finally provided the family with a better life in the suburbs. Why did we move? One day 3:00am at night, a 100 yards behind my house a drug deal went wrong and then one of them went all rambo with his full size Israeli Uzi 9mm. 2 of the rounds hit my house and woke me up. I just ignored it(because I didnt know it was BULLETS...) and went back to sleep. I wake up a half hour later and I hear my dad talking to police down stairs. I go down to inspect, then the police leave. i ask dad "what happened" he says "nothing, go back to sleep". I go to take a piss in the bathroom and then I look in the mirror while washing my face. What do i see in the corner of the mirror behind me? A freakin' 1.5 inch hole that the round exited out of. I look on the other wall and there is another hole, where the bullet entered. The 2nd round entered a window, went through a door, a wall, and got stuck in a dictionary.

So tell me, what is new in Detroit?

2nd Amendment
April 28, 2005, 05:40 PM
Law abiding CCW holder gut shoots boss then calls 911 and sticks around for cops...

More here than met this "journalist's" eye, that's for certain.

Rupestris
April 28, 2005, 06:47 PM
According to some reports one individual was choking another. I imagine its kinda hard to draw with both hands at someones throat. You do the math.
Keepin' an eye on this one...

Detroit Car Salesman Shoots Coworker
By Michael Rosenfield
Web produced by Seth Myers
April 28, 2005

An argument between two car salesmen turned violent Thursday. One man was shot in the stomach, right on the showroom floor of Detroit's Jefferson Chevrolet.

Police say the salesmen began with a verbal altercation around 8:30 a.m. Their argument quickly escalated. One man began choking the other before a gun was fired.
"It wasn't a spontaneous incident," said Pastor David Roberts. His brother, 37-year-old Andrew Roberts, was the shooting victim. Andrew Roberts had been arguing with a coworker for several weeks.

The wounded salesman was taken to Detroit Receiving Hospital where he underwent surgery Thursday for his gunshot wound in the stomach.

"I think, for the last two months, they had been disputing over sales, car sales," said David Roberts. The pair had apparently quarreled over who would handle customers as they arrived at the dealership.

The shooting took place in front of many witnesses, including customers looking at new cars. When it was over, the suspect himself called 911 and waited for police officers to arrive.

Detroit police took the suspect into custody peacefully. He was awaiting charges Thursday afternoon.

"Andrew is a go-getter and maybe that's what allowed these events to occur," the shooting victim's brother speculated.

Standing Wolf
April 28, 2005, 08:40 PM
The pair had apparently quarreled over who would handle customers as they arrived at the dealership.

Well, heck. Slice 'em in half. If it was a good enough approach in Solomon's time, it's good enough in ours, darn it!

Alex45ACP
April 28, 2005, 08:49 PM
Sounds to me like the guy who got shot was choking the victim and the victim fired in self-defense. He even called 911 and stayed until the police arrived. This was probably a clean self-defense shooting.

Johnnybgood
April 28, 2005, 09:51 PM
that the media gives the rest of the story if it turns out to be justifiable. :neener:

Hypnogator
April 28, 2005, 10:13 PM
Although this may turn out to be a justified shoot, let's face it, folks -- there are a lot of people out there with CCWs that have no business having a gun. Incidents of unjustified shootings are inevitable. We just need to be prepared to emphasize how rare they are when compared to the number of unjustified shoots by those who carry guns illegally.

psyopspec
April 28, 2005, 11:09 PM
where he remains in temporary serious condition

Interesting choice of words, considering he'll either go critical or recover to stable condition from there. Like saying "the space shuttle was in temporary flight within the earth's atmosphere." Duh, considering it would either fall out of the sky or make it to orbit... :rolleyes: Morons.

Harlie
April 28, 2005, 11:23 PM
Even though there is truth in your remark about those who shouldn't be allowed, just who gets to make that decision? 2nd Ammend' doesn't say who, why or how many, just that we can. If some of the good guys can't, because they don't qualify, who is responsible for their protection from the bad guys who will in spite of. Are you suggesting that people have passed through your training, that some how, don't qualify or is that just your general knowledge? Actually I know of what you refer, but who should make or be qualfied to make that sort of decision, that allows or disallows? Lib's would love the decision process, wouldn't they?

chris in va
April 29, 2005, 12:09 AM
And once again, the media has to use this phrase...

was the shooting victim

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
April 29, 2005, 12:14 AM
Although this may turn out to be a justified shoot, let's face it, folks -- there are a lot of people out there with CCWs that have no business having a gun. Incidents of unjustified shootings are inevitable. We just need to be prepared to emphasize how rare they are when compared to the number of unjustified shoots by those who carry guns illegally.

Your assumptions just aren't supported by the facts. Virginia has around 140,000 CCW permit holders, with around 10 years of permits, giving 1,400,000 years of experience with shall issue concealed carry. In that time, AFAIK, there has been exactly one serious firearms related crime committed by a permit holder. Bad permit holders are literally one in a million.

fletcher
April 29, 2005, 12:45 AM
^ Agreed. In the 10 years NC has had the CCW permits issued, none have been revoked due to violent crime.

jefnvk
April 29, 2005, 12:51 AM
It will be interesting to see if the shooter did anything out of the ordinary to provoke the attack. I do not have a CCW, but IIRC from talking to MI CCW holders, if you create/escalate the situtation, it is no longer viewed completely as self defense.

sturmruger
April 29, 2005, 11:10 AM
I would love to get the rest of the story on this one.

Waitone
April 29, 2005, 01:57 PM
Let's watch this one. I can't wait to see how the media spins it. Lemme see here, a one handed choke hold. Must be some sort of ninja kungfooie unique to New Faluja.

rritter
April 29, 2005, 02:28 PM
Virginia has around 140,000 CCW permit holders, with around 10 years of permits, giving 1,400,000 years of experience with shall issue concealed carry. In that time, AFAIK, there has been exactly one serious firearms related crime committed by a permit holder. Bad permit holders are literally one in a million.

Actually, (just to nitpick), bad permit holders are literally 1 in 140,000. It's incidents by permit holders that are less than one in a million.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
April 29, 2005, 02:40 PM
Actually, (just to nitpick), bad permit holders are literally 1 in 140,000. It's incidents by permit holders that are less than one in a million.

OK, uber nitpicking now :D ... but to be perfectly correct, I guess I should have said something like "Incidents involving serious firearms related crimes by CCW permit holders in VA occur at the rate of 1 per every 1,400,000 man years of permit issuance"

So these incidents are rare enough to declare CCW permit holders to be amongst the most law-abiding groups.

spacemanspiff
April 29, 2005, 02:46 PM
MN doesn't need this right now . . .

nor does MI.

:D

Henry Bowman
April 29, 2005, 02:48 PM
Perhaps they (and we) do need something like this right now. There were many witnesses. If it turns out that it was a proper defensive use of a weapon, then it will support our cause.

TheDutchman
April 29, 2005, 03:28 PM
There was a incident about a year ago just outside Austin,TX in a affluent part of the county by the lake. A man and his young boy where going into a HEB store when approach by a man under the influence(of something).The man follow the Man and son and made some sexual comments about the boy. They shopped then came out of store the man was waiting and made more comments then rushed at father and son, father shoot man in stomach with many witnesses. The Sheriff Office let the father go, but the DA(who hates guns) wants to prosecute.

logical
April 29, 2005, 03:44 PM
This isn't really about whether the guy "should" or "shouldn't" have a CCW. The thing is to not let anyone push forward the idea that if he didn't have a CCW he wouldn't have had a gun and this wouldn't have happened. People about to commit capital crimes do not worry about an illegal firearm charge.

The Rabbi
April 29, 2005, 03:44 PM
The man follow the Man and son and made some sexual comments about the boy. They shopped then came out of store the man was waiting and made more comments then rushed at father and son, father shoot man in stomach with many witnesses. The Sheriff Office let the father go, but the DA(who hates guns) wants to prosecute.

Let's see him get a conviction on that one. Esp in TX where "he needed killing" is a valid defense. And this joker sure sounds like he needed it.

MudPuppy
April 29, 2005, 07:46 PM
Well, there's "Texas" and then there's Austin. There's a reason you see a lot of "Keep Austin Weird" bumber stickers. (Last elections there was one blue county in a sea of red...Travis Co. That DA seems to have an agenda/reputation--we'll see how it goes.)

TheDutchman
May 3, 2005, 04:02 PM
Ronnie Earl is the DA and hates Guns and Republicans.

Dionysusigma
May 3, 2005, 04:22 PM
Sounds like the NYC of Texas. :uhoh:

ajkurp
May 3, 2005, 06:02 PM
Hypnogator- the problem with permitted CCW is there is always some tyrant wannabee that thinks they are uniquely qualified to determine who should and who should not be armed. That is, who has rights under the 2A and who does not.

Only Vermont style carry is consistent with the rights of man.

xdoctor
May 3, 2005, 06:15 PM
I'm also the scum of the earth, a car salesman. I've been in a few 'arguments' with other salesmen that turned violent. One ended with me bleeding on the lot. Another ended with the other guy unconscious, a free ride in a police car and a bill for a new table, two chairs, a 12 foot window and damage to the boss's car. We were both fired for that last one.

I can understand how this would happen. Its referred to in the business as 'skating'. Its when one salesman 'steals' another salesman's customer. Think of it as stealing $300-$1000 depending on the deal. Discussions over whose customer just bought can get VERY heated in a big hurry and come to blows more than I'd like to admit.

I don't think there was any reason to use a firearm. As you can tell from above, things can get nasty in a hurry. However there are many less lethal weapons around that will neutralize the situation witout someone firing a gun in the showroom. Personally, I like to swing chairs.

Zundfolge
May 3, 2005, 06:20 PM
let's face it, folks -- there are a lot of people out there with CCWs that have no business having a gun.

A lot?

I doubt there are "a lot" of people with CCWs that have no business having a gun ... I'd be willing to bet that across the entire country there are a handfull of people with CCWs that have no business having a gun (and I'll even further bet that those are in May Issue states where a Sheriff has given one of his worthless cronies a permit).

duckslayer
May 3, 2005, 07:00 PM
However there are many less lethal weapons around that will neutralize the situation

:eek:

thumbody
May 4, 2005, 11:24 AM
xdoctor , You using a chair would make me feel in danger of death or great bodily harm and would justify lethal force!
Do you not feel a chair can be a lethal weapon?If you are using it to fend off an attack that is one thing but if you are using it as a offensive weapon you are no less guilty than someone attacking with a knife or firearm.

Spreadfire Arms
May 4, 2005, 11:48 AM
although i do not have any direct experience or knowledge with this, i have heard the Travis Co. District Attorney's office vigorously prosecutes gun related charges.

that being said, if this incident were to happen in this jurisdiction, i am not certain which way it would play out.

i would say that someone choking someone else is a use of deadly force and if that were the case, then the use of a firearm would be justifiable.

however, it appears that this was an ongoing feud between the two. also, if they were arguing about which car salesman gets the next "up," [car salesman jargon for walk-in customer] then the argument really should not have escalated to physical force.

however, having worked on a car lot, i have seen unscrupulous salesmen scoop the next "up" from the next guy in line. kind of like a taxi driver cutting in front of every other driver in line at a taxi queue to scoop up the next customer. i wouldn't exactly resort to violence, but i don't think it is improper for the salesman who was wronged to at least verbally express his discontent to the vulture salesman.

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