[MitchSchaft]

My wife wants to get a grant from the government from tax dollars so she can finish school.
What are your thoughts on the ethics of using our tax dollars on something like paying for schooling?

[jimpeel]

An appropriate name for these "grants" to those who simply stand around with their hand out.

[Gray Peterson]

My thinking on "government hand outs" is this.

Right now, I have to use food stamps in order to eat. The reason being is that I've been jobless for two months, and cannot qualify for unemployment due to state of Oregon's rules.

I even got evicted from my apartment. That's how bad the economy is out here in Oregon. I was dependent on a room mate for housing expenses, and I had too many room mates flake on me, including the last one.

In any case, I had to move in with a friend out in Hillsboro, and one of the conditions of me living here for free while I look for work is to do everything possible to make sure I can feed myself, including applying for food stamps, for which I was approved.

Though I'm primarily of a libertarian mindset, I'm also practical. My thinking is: I spend a lot of money in taxes over the time I worked. When I pay money in taxes, it's with the understanding that if I need the help desperately, they'll disperse some money to me so I can survive.

Now, there difference between me, and the difference between the "welfare mom's" with 6 kids by 6 different fathers out there, is that I want, and am, looking for work, and looking to improve my life. I want off food stamps, as soon as possible. Thinkings on food stamps depends on the person. I know there is a lot of THR people who think they'd rather cut off their arm then take a piece of help from the government, but my thinking is: You've worked for years, you paid taxes. If you need the help, take it.

[MitchSchaft]

Lonnie, that's how my wife views the situation. I'm on the fence about it.

[Sodbuster]

That's how bad the economy is out here in Oregon.
It's like that everywhere. Iraq, WoT, etc kinda smokescreens that fact. Mitch, if your wife can get a grant, she should take it.

[priv8ter]

I got out of the Navy in August, and had to look around for two months before I landed a job at PSNS...being big into smaller government, less taxes, I waited a full month before applying for unemployment, and I felt like the worlds biggest hippocrit when I started collecting it. But...

Lonnie used the term 'Welfare Mom'. In the beggining, all these social programs(Grants, well-fare, food stamps, whatever else I'm missing) started out as good programs. Now, the system gets aboused though, and just like bad cops and bad teachers, these abusers get all the press. We forget about people that are using the system to try to get back on their feet, and focus on the people using the system to keep their butts on the couch!

I feel that with our current form of government, and the taxes we are going to pay no matter what...then take what they are offering. Now...if the government said, 'We will give you a tax cut if people are willing to give up these grants', then I might changes my mind...



Plus, with a grant to finish higher education, she can make more money, and pay higher taxes in the end...so heck...go for it!

edited to remove a naughty word accidentally used when I was all fired up

[MitchSchaft]

I like what I heard from the last few replies. The economy in Memphis is horrible for the most part as well.

[Destructo6]

They are confident that their grant for educational purposes will help the recipient get a better job and pay, and that will more than make up for the grant money.

It's not a "hand-out" (something for nothing), they assume the money will be back in their hands before long.

[Skunkabilly]

They are confident that their grant for educational purposes will help the recipient get a better job and pay, and that will more than make up for the grant money.


Unless that person becomes a professional student! C'mon we've all seen it happen :D

[Quartus]

Well, if you don't mind accepting money that the Federal Government is giving out illegally, I guess it's fine.


Funny how our principles go out of the window when someone waves some cash under our noses.


Oh, BTW, I have been close to starvation (as in: not eating for days at a time) and not appllied for any gummit money, though I qualified.


Ketchup on a tortilla (one per day) is a great way to lose weight.


'Course, I didn't need to. :(

[Gray Peterson]

Funny how our principles go out of the window when someone waves some cash under our noses.

Might I also add that I was on the verge of being homeless, and that my applying for food stamps is a condition of staying here at this place?

Now, if the government said "In order to get food stamps, you must register your firearms or safely store them" or some other such non-sense, I wouldn't take it. Period.

But they have not thus far.

[BamBam]

Mitch,
I don't see anything wrong with using a grant to educate a citizen. The key here is that I believe that your wilfe will learn something and apply that knowledge. Like Skunk said, career students are just a drain on the system.

Most government programs were intended to be a "hand up". I think that's great because your wife will be able to make more money and pay more taxes (not that I'm pro-tax; I'm trying to say that she will be paying back the grant with her higher taxable income).

Too bad so many are leaches that never contribute.

[Dannyboy]

If you're paying taxes, I wouldn't call it a handout. I'd say it's more like a loan, of sorts. If the education does help you get a better job then you'll be paying more taxes which will more than cover the grant.

BamBam beat me to it.

One other thing. I think the only people who accept handouts are the lazy who don't make any effort to contribute to the pool they are continually leeching from.

[Jack T.]

I don't consider grands for education a hand out. I had a few grants while in college, but now that I am in the "Holy smoke, look how much they took out of my check" tax bracket, the .gov has gotten its money back, and I have only been out for 2 years :fire:

[Smoke]

Educational grants are only marginally acceptable for reasons already stated.

Personally, I am against all gvernment sponsored socialist programs. The government is here to govern. Not to employ or to provide money.

Where I live is predominantly an agriculture area. There are millions of dollars spent every year on ag programs. They pay you not to graze your grass, they pay you not to grow something, they pay you to grow something, they pay if it rains too much or not enough. I have never taken any govenment money period.

I'm sure my ranching enterprise would qualify for something. But I am decidedly against the government messing with the free market economy. If I can't make it without a hand out I don't deserve to be in this business.

I have been unemployed. I never filed for unemployment.

I fully beleive the social security program will not be around when I retire even though I pay 7.65% of my annual income into the program.

IF you can rationilize taking food stamps, welfare, unemployment, grants, or other money from the government and feel its justifyed...fine. But it doesn't make it right.

By the way, just HOW is this gun related?

[Monkeyleg]

Smoke: "...even though I pay 7.65% of my annual income into the program."

You pay double that. Your employer pays the other half, and that is part of your salary.

As to the question at hand, it's a tough one. I've been through all sorts of things (unemployment, near-bankruptcy, etc) but haven't taken a dime from government. I took out loans for school, and worked 32 hours a week to pay my living expenses while I was in school.

Lonnie, if you're at the point where you need to get food stamps to eat, then it seems like you're at the point where I, as a taxpayer, support government help programs.

As for the grant? I'd prefer it be a loan.

Your call, though.

Good luck, and I sure hope things get better

[MitchSchaft]

By the way, just HOW is this gun related?

This is Legal & Political, dog, it doesn't have to be gun related. :neener:

[Chris Rhines]

I dislike them. I'd abolish every one of them were I given the chance.

But, I'll admit that my principles can get a bit expedient when my own life is at stake. Perfect idealogical consistency is something to search for, but few will find it.

Still, I'd exhaust every option before going to the gov't. Once you take their money, they own a piece of you...

- Chris

[Bob Locke]

I think a government-backed student loan is one thing, but a grant is a totally different animal.

I'd say get the loan instead of the grant, pay it back after schooling is over and your wife is employed, and feel better about having paid your own way rather than having the government pick someone else's pocket for you.

[Psssniper]

Anybody who receives a check from the goverment (either a Pay check or Benefits of any type) should NOT be able to VOTE until one year has elapsed since their last check. Simple concept.
In my warped view people who receive money from the government are apt to vote for "more" and that "more" comes from you and I.

[NotQuiteSane]

See blog

NQS

[tyme]

Funny how our principles go out of the window when someone waves some cash under our noses.But if we don't take the money, all those illegal aliens will! :)

[goalie35]

As long as people can rationalize about the "good reasons" to see money taken from me and others at gunpoint given to them, we'll have the problem government we have today. No handouts, no .gov-backed loans (who pays for them if the borrower doesn't?), no welfare channeled through ANY level of government, nothing that comes from Leviathan is moral. If I have no right to take it directly from my fellow citizens, they have no right to take it from me.

If there were no drain going directly from my paycheck to the state and the Feds, I guarantee you I'd be more than happy to support charities that would help people in financial straits. Besides taxes, I could stop contributing to RKBA organizations, and save money on paper and ink (and time) wasted writing newspapers and congresscritters about our eroding liberty. If I (and others) gave just ten percent of the savings to private charity, or directly to those in need, we would solve a great deal of the problems out there. All without keeping the parasites of government employed in trying to do things for the "common good."

[Baba Louie]

Granted, all government subsidized programs are not listed in the constitutional rules they are supposed to play by, and as such, should be ruled as wrong. Having said that, I would far rather see taxpayers dollars go to fellow Americans who would benefit from them with the expectations that they too would contribute to the economy eventually, than to give it out to Guatemalan, Columbian or Turkish governments to line the pockets of their "Elected Elite".

You've paid in, reap what you can while you can, with the understanding that you only reap that which you've sown (or will).

Americans helping other Americans truly in need who will work and contribute to society is one thing. Handing monies to others who are professional mooches is soooo wrong. Ask Peter how he feels when you "Rob Peter to pay Paul".

But I think everyone here knows that and pretty much feels the same, doncha think?

Adios

[CZ-75]

IF you can rationilize taking food stamps, welfare, unemployment, grants, or other money from the government and feel its justifyed...fine. But it doesn't make it right.


My problem is I CAN'T rationalize the govt. taking money that I'll never see again. I took unemployment for two months a year and a half ago. Good thing I had another job lined up just as I lost my other, since it was barely enough to pay my rent.

I have an "entitlement" mentality, which is I believe that I'm entitled to get my money back, even if that means getting a unemployment check, which I believe is more deserved than welfare, since I had to be employed to get it and the benefits are short term.

As was mentioned earlier, if there was an "opt out" I'd be all for not paying and not receiving.

[coonan357]

Mitchshaft, It's not that you are taking the money and laundering it for items you don't need, its for an education , do it because its going into something worthwhile, My ex fiance was reluctant to get grants to go back to school because she felt that she was lowering herself to the scum that abuses it , she was a single mom (not by choice ) and was barely making ends meet( at one point barely keeping her son fed ) and one of her freinds pushed her into getting the grants she needed to go back to school and become an Medical X-ray tech , she made more money than I did last year , and is now putting the money back into the economy , I might have to apply for grants to reeducate myself as I won't have anything in another month due to my past job situation .

[telewinz]

It's all coming down the rode, within 25 years or less. You cannot educate a person and expect them to live in proverty because of a set of rules that they had no voice on. We either bend or we will be broken, The days of the super rich and the super poor are numbered whether we like it or not. Its called progress and it can only be delayed, not stopped. Dog food is for dogs, indifference is part of the problem, not the solution.

[Quartus]

:confused:


Try that again, telewinz. That made no sense to me at all.

[telewinz]

I mean that socialized medicine and cradle to the grave care is near. We either except it as progress like most of the developed world does or we can delay it's entry, either way its coming. And the majority of the American people are educated enough to demand it happen.

[JohnBT]

You must have been talking to a different majority than I have.

I'd like to know if cradle to the grave care going to come by my house to to cook for me and clean my bathroom and wash my windows? I need somebody to care for me. Just kidding, but where are we doing to find quality doctors and health care professionals to work for what little (compared to what they can make in private practice) the government will pay them? I mean, look at how well the government handles things as simple as patching potholes, organizing the tax code and running elections.

John

[Quartus]

I was afraid that's what you meant. I think you are right, if we change some important words (and correct some English usage):



Socialized medicine and cradle to the grave care is near. We can either accept it as the inevitable slide down into a police state as most of the developed world does, or we can delay its entry. Either way it's coming. And the majority of the American people are dumbed down enough to demand that it happen.

[Zander]

Right now, I have to use food stamps in order to eat. -- LonnieSuch programs are meant to be short-term help. Treat them accordingly, as you seem inclined to do. Also, don't forget that non-gov't programs in your area, especially churches, help people through tough times.

Hope your circumstances improve dramatically in the near future.

MitchSchaft...

Other than the obvious [what's the fed.gov doing redistributing our earnings?!?], my objection to such programs is the inherent discrimination involved in such "grants".

[ahadams]

I was on that stupid mountain because I was on active duty in the Army and fell down on the :cuss: rocks because it was ice and snow over running water over more ice over more lose rocks. I get more than a little upset when the leftists try to group veterans benefits with the support of fourth generation welfare people who start having kids when they're 14.

know what I mean?

[cratz2]

I say if the money's there, take it. While many of us have issues with some forms of government socialism, we live here and you (and she, no doubt) have paid into such programs.

If we pay hundreds of thousands to do heart transplants on folks that have no ties to the US, we should be able to cough up enough for someone to finish school.

Just my 1/5 of a dime.

[NotQuiteSane]

I sent a e-mail to a freind, and mentioned I could get out of my troubles by going on welfare. But I think I've come up with a new term for welfare recipiants:

"Theif-once-removed"

whadda ya think? since instead of pointing the gun at us and robbing us of the fruits of our labors, the TOR has the taxman do it for them, it seems they're indrectly part of the crime.

NQS

[TexasVet]

Anybody who receives a check from the goverment (either a Pay check or Benefits of any type) should NOT be able to VOTE until one year has elapsed
______________________________________________

Last time I looked they were called Veteran's "Benefits". I'll consider that while I deposit my VA disability check because of those body parts that don't work much because of that silly little SE Asian War I (obviously) stupidly volunteered to go fight in. You know, that check that was part of the enlistment contract in case anything bad actually happened to me during that war.

What the heck, I hear they are clamoring to hire 100% disabled Vets out there so they can show how patriotic they are. Hey, it's only one leg that doesn't work so good, and the left arm really does work for a short while at a time. Maybe they won't notice the bad heart that resulted from all that other stuff over the years.

[Pendragon]

Lonnie,

I am sorry to hear of your misfortune.

I am sure you paid a hundred times in taxes what you are recieving in food stamps.

I look at it this way - we should try and get rid of the pork and socialist programs as best we can, however, you cannot overlook the fact that these programs may be a serious factor in the current economic situation.

One can argue that a true believer would refuse such handouts out of pride and principle, but I think that is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Use the food stamps, get back on your feet and vote for smaller government.

It does nobody any good to allow yourself to be destroyed for the sake of proving this point. The world will not care and they will not get it.

I hope your luck improves, it is good to see you on here...

[MeekandMild]

IMHO the two most ethical forms of welfare are 1) payment to seek education and job training and 2) short term aid to help in a crisis, though I think this latter is much more aptly given by local community/church/family. (Families are less able to do this nowadays because they are taxed so heavily.)

I don't think the problem occurs when a person is down and out and needs a lift to get back on their feet. The problem occurs when people get trapped, lose their job skills, lose their ability to compete, lose their ability to fight their way up, become enmeshed in a series of interlinked handouts and if they try to fight their way out of it they lose housing, food, security, healthcare, everything.

The Welfare Industry does this to people. You have to remember that an increasingly large army of government workers is being paid to keep people dependant on the system. They are slavemasters and they are always seeking to expand their plantations.
Link to a PDF discussion about the size and scope of means tested welfare spending (http://www.budget.house.gov/hearings/rectorzstmnt.pdf)

[Ed Brunner]

I am against government giveaway programs, but I would much rather give it to someone who needs it short term and a couple of good examples of this have been stated.
Churches and other organizations also help and the bureaucrats don't get a share of that.
Bottom line is need. Still, I can see grants for education in some cases, as long as we do not educate individuals beyond their comprehension.

[Ebbtide]

If you paid taxes for these programs (regardless of the constitutionality) feel free to get some back. Better you than the no-loads, and trust me, the money will get spent be it you or someone else.

If you did not pay into these programs, take advantage of them so you can.

My 2 cents,

ehenz

as long as we do not educate individuals beyond their comprehension.

Nice one! I took one of my clients down to the financial aid office on "pay day". Many of those in line to attend community college were talking about what they were going to do with the money...hair, nails, car, you name it. Made me sick. Aparently scamming FAFSA is a right of passage in some communities.