[Kenneth Lew]

Last night, a collared pit bull entered my back yard as my vehicle entered through the gate. Dog was barking and hitting my windows trying to attack my cats. Blinded dog with my flash light and wacked it over the head. Dog ran off.

Can I legally shoot such a dog in my back yard at night?

[BryanP]

Probably, but be prepared to spend at least a bit of time talking to police and lawyers.

[AirForceShooter]

on your own property?
Fire away.
No LEO is going to question your shooting a pit.
I love dogs but some just have to be put down.

AFS

[armoredman]

Check your state and local laws regarding discharge of a firearm in residential areas. In my area, I can legally defend myself, regardless if attacker has 2 legs or 4, but OC works very well on dogs too, never forget. If you are in imminent danger of life or limb, use whatever force legally allowed by law to defend yourself.

[XLMiguel]

Pits are classified as "Vicious dogs" most everywhere, certainly capable of mortal harm or grave bodily injury, so yeah, I'd blast it if you have a clear shot. You wil likely end up talking with the constabulary, but it probably won't be a long talk. The dog's owner might be another issue, but if you live anywhere where there's leash laws and you're on your own property, it shouldn't be a problem. Good luck. stay safe.

[Bob R]

Where I live, not only can you shoot it, but the police would be grateful. With me shooting it they have very little paperwork. If they shoot it there is about 4 pages of paperwork to do.

bob

[wmenorr67]

Just an observation but why all the questions in regards to pits all of a sudden? Is there an invasion going on that has not been publicized?

[gunsmith]

but where I live is a small territorial rat terrier that would attack the pit to protect his bigger friend the cat so I would have been forced to shoot the pitbull,unless it was so well trained it sat down on command but if that was the case it wouldn't be invading the yard.
so in order to answer your question -justified? yes,absolutely!
Legal?
who knows here in SF CA I'm sure you could,but the pets owner would be looking for ya

[RavenVT100]

Pits have gotten bad media attention lately, and politically they're not very popular dogs. The stereotype of a pit is that of a vicious attack dog. This is partly due to the breed's history, but probably more due to the fact that people can be interested in owning a pit for the wrong reasons and therefore do not treat the dog correctly or train it properly.

As a result of all this, the police will most likely be far more sympathetic to you shooting a pit than a toy poodle.

Personally, GSDs are highest on my list of dogs I wouldn't want to screw with, but GSD owners tend to be less irresponsible training their animals. If you get on the bad side of an angy GSD though, watch out.

[jacketch]

In northern Virginia, 3 pit bulls recently attacked an elderly lady and her dog, killing them both. A few weeks later another another person was attacked but thankfully, only injured.

[Group9]

Just an observation but why all the questions in regards to pits all of a sudden? Is there an invasion going on that has not been publicized?

You must not read the papers much. I can't ever remember seeing a Pit Bull until about 15 years ago, and then it seemed like everywhere I turned around, I was seeing one, or hearing about an attack by one (or more).

Pit Bull owners will defend them by saying they are not mean dogs unless people make them mean. Well, that is small comfort when you see one in your backyard, or running down the street loose heading for you or your family.

[2nd Amendment]

Actually Pits were very popular at the turn of the century. I can't remember the specifics but one served as unofficial mascot with some unit in WWI and wound up being decorated. He toured in parades after the war. They were used for their strength of character in war posters. But their popularity faded sometime after WWII and when they returned to public notice it was because of unresearched media attention(none of us are familar with that, eh?).

The media has a bad tendency to portray any dog attack at this point in time as being by a "Pit". Unidentifiable Heinz? Pit. Short haired? Pit. Etc and so forth, because it grabs the attention of a public who are, to put it mildly, not generally too bright where news is concerned.

Anyway, the thread title would have been better had it not listed any specific dog since, if it's gnawing your ankle off, it doesn't really matter what you call it. As for shooting "a dog", if you're in city limits you're screwed unless it's literally self defense. If not then generally speaking you're OK. Do you shoot on your property now? Doesn't matter what you're shooting at, then.

As for the dog itself, if the owner wanted it they'd keep it under control. Shoot, shovel and shut up. It's just beyond me why people seem to think they need to involve the police in this sort of thing? We've been shooting dogs, and cats, all my life and long before that. My neighbor's dog is scheduled to die this weekend, when it again returns to eat more of my chickens. I told him twice, which is more than I'd do for most people and certainly more than I would expect from anyone if my dogs were off killing and attacking.

[Art Eatman]

Hostile behavior on the part of any small animal can be a sign of rabies. Dog, cat, fox, raccoon, whatever. Anything smaller than a bear, I guess; I've never read of a bear with rabies. (Compared to a bear, any dog is small.)

You're justified in whatever protective action you take. No different from protecting yourself against an attacking human.

Dogs are territorial by nature. If a dog exhibits hostile behavior in territory not his own, something is notably wrong with that dog...

ART

[Byron Quick]

They were used for their strength of character in war posters. But their popularity faded sometime after WWII and when they returned to public notice it was because of unresearched media attention(none of us are familar with that, eh?).


In eastern central Georgia, pit bulls never lost their popularity. I remember playing with my uncle's pit when I was small back in the 1950's. They have gotten more popular in the area with the wannabe gang bangers and stuff. The ones that I have seen that were raised strictly as pets are some of the most people friendly dogs I have ever seen. So environment counts for a lot.

That being said...remember the breed's genetics. It was probably after WWII before hardly anyone kept the pit bull as a pet. The dog was bred to fight...for money. Again it was probably post WWII before a pit bull was allowed to breed that hadn't won that right by killing other dogs. Pit bulls don't know but one way to go when they get into a fight: kill or die. I would suggest that maybe that makes the breed a bad choice for guard dog or attack dog training. Some folks thought otherwise. I wouldn't mind having one for a pet in a rural setting. I wouldn't own one in an urban setting and I would never train one to be suspicious of any human...that's begging for trouble.

Even the common breeds that are trained as guard dogs, attack dogs, K-9, and Schutzhund need to be carefully selected for aptitude. Most of the common breeds are not truly suitable. I'm sure that, with care, an experienced trainer could select a pit bull that would make a suitable candidate for this type of work. However, I believe that it would be a much longer search than it would be with the more suitable breeds.

[NHBB]

I love pits, and the thoroughbreds that are often pigeonholed with them like various terriers. they are by very nature animal aggressive, but raised with a fair hand they can make wonderful family dogs setting the stereotypes aside. extremely smart and protective of their family... and it is definitely true in the hands of a bad owner or even a harsh disciplinarian can result in a bad dog that really should be put down.

that said, I would have probably shot it out of worry for my own dog (english bulldog.. looks tough but is like a teddy bear).

leash laws are there for a reason, and a pit running around the neighborhood is a marked dog... most kennels have a destroy on arrival policy towards them.

as with any breed of dog, temperament varies.. it could just have easily been an aggro german shepard or a more accepted breed of dog.

[El Rojo]

Blinded dog with my flash light and wacked it over the head. Dog ran off.Why would you want to shoot a dog and have to face the legal and possible vengence issues when you have already taken the most effective means of handling the situation? The guy who turned me into a gun fighter told me, "Any time you can avoid a shooting, don't shoot." So maybe your state law says blast away, but why invite trouble? It sounds like you handled it perfectly.

[Preacherman]

Remember the "escalation of force" thing. If the dog's attacking your windows, trying to get at your cats, then:

1. It's not attacking you, so self-defence is not an issue;

2. It can't get at your cats, so protection of your property is arguably a weak defence.

I'd suggest your actions were reasonable under any criteria. Use of OC spray would have been another reasonable option. However, if you'd used lethal force against the dog in the absence of any articulable threat to yourself and/or your cats, the owner of the dog would (IMHO) have grounds for a lawsuit against you, even if the law says you're in the clear. The doctrine of the "reasonable man" still holds sway.

Anytime I can get out of a defensive situation (against humans, or animals, or whatever) without having to threaten or use lethal force, as far as I'm concerned, I've won!

[Gunsnrovers]

I'm with El Rojo and Preacherman on this. If the dog was hostile and threatening towards you, shooting would be justified. However, based on the dogs response, I would say no and/or it wouldn't be worth it.

[GreenFurniture]

By "attacking" your car the animal was a threat. There is very little to argue there.

If it had been me, the dog would have gotten 230 grains of justice.

[Bob R]

Here is some interesting data. The breeds of dogs involved in fatal attacks over 20 years.

There is even a cocker spaniel in there! :eek:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

This site has several pages of dogbite links. What I found amazing was the number of dog bites.


Annually in the United States 4.7 million people are bitten by dogs. Of these, approximately 800,000 people require medical attention.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbites.htm

Personally, if the dog was lunging against the glass, trying to get to the cat, I would remove the cat. If that did not deter the pooch, I would introduce it to Mr. 00 buck. Why open the door and subject yourself to attack by trying a non-lethal approach?

bob

[Domino]

Why would you want to shoot a dog and have to face the legal and possible vengence issues when you have already taken the most effective means of handling the situation? The guy who turned me into a gun fighter told me, "Any time you can avoid a shooting, don't shoot." So maybe your state law says blast away, but why invite trouble? It sounds like you handled it perfectly.

Well, you have a good point, but you must also consider the potential threat of an animal like this. What if it ends up killing some kid in the neighborhood a couple of days later? You are really going to have to use your own judgement on this, since you and only you can make assumptions as to how dangerous this animal is. I would see if the dog continues to be a nuisance, if it does than the owners are simply asking for it to be terminated.

BTW I'm pretty sure that here, in Georgia, the only reason you need to shoot a dog (or any non-game animal) is that it is on your property. If there is a lease law and the animal is a breed known for hostility than you would be more than justified and probably doing everyone a favor by exterminating it.

That bieng said I ,personally, am quite tolerant of other peoples pets since there are many dogs running around my neighborhood. I have had a few become a little aggressive and I would say that they are treading on thin ice, because I would probably not hesitate to kill a dog that was trying to attack me or another. Simple fact of life, when a pet owner doesn't know how to take proper care of their pets they often end up dead because they allowed to become someone else's problem. I have never had sympathy for people like this, they are too stupid to own dangerous pets.

[Desertdog]

Last night, a collared pit bull entered my back yard as my vehicle entered through the gate. Dog was barking and hitting my windows trying to attack my cats. Blinded dog with my flash light and wacked it over the head. Dog ran off.
In the PRK,with this scenerio, you would probably be in deep s#it if you fired on the dog. The dog could not get to you or the cat and you could have safely retreated. Self defense could not have been used.

Want to rid the neighborhood of the dog? :what: Maybe get out of the car and provoke the dog to attack you with your firearm ready. :evil:

[Tory]

you:

1. Were in no immediate danger; and

2. Had ready means to escape.

That said, even in my anti-gun state, killing the dog would be a "good shoot. By statute , one is authorized to kill a dog which is:

1. Not on it's land or under the owner's control; and

2. Attacking your domestic animals. That would include cats.

Furthermore, on your facts, it was threatening you . :what:

"You may fire when ready, Gridley!"

[caseydog]

I'm in a very rural area , I have a non aggressive dog that stays in our yard and I've had a few dogs come around and challenge him for territory. My standard answer for the situation is one shot across the bow , into the dirt so he gets dirt kicked up on him to go with the blast of the gunshot. Out of a half dozen such incidents since moving here , only one didn't get the message and required my next shot to have a different intention. Of the dogs who got one "across the bow" , all left in great haste and none have ever returned.

FWIW

Ray

[P95Carry]

all left in great haste and none have ever returned. - if they know what's good for 'em! LOL :p :D

[280PLUS]

Dalmations- These dogs were originally bred to be used by the Fire Dept for keeping the crowd back at a fire. They can be very aggressive and are considered to be at the top of the list of dogs that will bite.

Unfortunately due to Disney's irresponsible act of portraying them as cute cuddly little spotted things many parents have bought these for their kids only to find out about their aggressiveness after the fact. Usually the hard way.

IIRC I have been bitten by 2 dogs in my klife. A friend's Pit mix (actuallly my fault, I was trying to separate him from MY dog and accidentally stuck my hand it his mouth) and my brother's Dalmation. He had a bad habit of letting you in the house but then biting you on the posterior as you tried to leave later. You never turned your back on that dog as you were going out the door. The dog also bit his roomate's girlfriend on the way out (didn't even break the skin) and she sued and got $12,000 no questions asked. My brother's homeowners insurance was subsequently canceled.

[Firethorn]

12k no questions asked? Did he even try to fight it, or did the insurance company just settle, as they have been known to do.

If you're going to define "bite" that loosely, I've been "bit" hundreds of times by my family's dogs. While playing a hand or something ends up between the jaws, etc.

But they haven't ever broken the skin. Heck, I can even grab them by the jaws. Dad even brushes their teeth, and I know they don't like that!

Heck, my grandfather's dogs once held a crook down that way. Two females on the legs, the male had his jaws arount the guy's throat. They were Boston Terriers. No skin broken. Cops didn't dare shoot they were so close. He got to wait there until Grandpa came home, as animal control was busy with a crock on the other side of town. The crook tried to sue for "vicious animals", but got thrown out of court when it was discovered that the dogs hadn't even broken the skin.

[280PLUS]

The insurance company settled and canceled his policy. He had no opportunity to fight anything. She sued AFTER breaking up with the roomate. :rolleyes:

Both of my bites resulted in broken skin one from the pit on the back of my hand and one on my,,,

:eek:


And :cuss: did that hurt!

:D

I just like to warn people about Dalmations when I get a chance because it's the last thing most expect, again, Thanks to Disney.

[Firethorn]

Sheesh, how couldn't he have an oppertunity to fight it?

That reminds me of the architectural firm that was contracted to draft plans to repair a fire-damaged mall(part of the roof&one wall or something). It turned out that a volunteer firefighter got hurt fighting the fire. He sued everybody involved in the fire. Including this firm, which had no part of the mall before being hired. They had to sue their own insurance company to make them fight it.

It later turned out that the firefighter was inebriated at the time of his injury.

[bratch]

I have a very loving playful 30 pound border collie. She is able to enter and leave the house as she pleases so she is outside alot if I'm not home.

That said any animal that threatens her and is not under control of its owner will meet a quick demise. I could probably run them off but they have already demonstrated 1: Their owners do not have control. 2: They are agressive and would harm another animal if given the chance. I won't give them that chance.

[2nd Amendment]

Of the dogs who got one "across the bow" , all left in great haste and none have ever returned.

I wish that were the case everywhere. It's always been SOP to put one across the bow but I am amazed at the number that don't leave(some don't even flinch) and even more amazed at those that come back later if they do leave at the time. In fact, I don't think I've ever had one *not* come back sooner or later unless its owner finally developed a sense of responsibility and restrained it.

Maybe there's something in the water around here that makes 'em dumber.

[Zach S]

Shoot, shovel and shut up. It's just beyond me why people seem to think they need to involve the police in this sort of thing? Simple: neighbors. If one of them call, the police are sure to show up and not know what was going on. I call it in, and they say okay and dont bother coming.

[280PLUS]

Sheesh, how couldn't he have an oppertunity to fight it?

Apparently it was cheaper/easier for the insurance company to just settle. And you wonder why insurance rates keep climbing...

:fire:

[slaphappy]

You took on a pit with a flashlight? You've got bigger balls than me, that's for sure.

If it were me, the pit would be dead. As far as I am concerned, if he's out of his yard or out of his owners control, he's a menace to society and should be dealt with as such. Just because the dog wasn't a direct threat to you, (and I think he was, ain't no window that can stop a dog that powerful) doesn't mean that he isn't going to maul a 6 year old when he runs off from your property. I really doubt that pit's fun was over for the night.

[motorep]

As others have noted- it depends on where you are...a pitbull was attacking a puppy in a Denver suburb, not up in the mountains. An acquaintance of mine walked out of his garage, grabbed the pitbull by the collar, and put a .44 Mag, 300 gr. Corbon into the back of its skull. Local pd had already been called, when they arrived said acquaintance told them the gun was on the bench in the garage, unloaded. They checked the serial #, basic good police work I think, and said "what a mess, who's going to clean this up?"

[XLMiguel]

A point or two for clarity's sake. I

A lot of dogs get labeled as 'pitbulls', but technically, I believe the American Staffordshire Terrier is the 'real deal'. I've know a couple that were real sweeties, but also very loyal to their families, but tough enough dags, and I wouldn't want to pi$$ one off. Then there's the generic 'pits' that are ill trained and cared for by inadequate, irresponsible persons that seem to cause more than their share of trouble and get the whole breed tarred with a bad brush. Would that one could shoot the owners, too. :mad:

If you can run the dog off without shooting, fine & dandy, but I'd call animal control and the cops and be all over the owner. I want the incident document in case there's a next time. Shooting someone's pet, even justifiably, is bad ju-ju.

Justifiable shooting a Threatening dog IMO is like justifiable shooting a person - they must have means, opportunity and intent of mortal injury or grave bodily harm. A pitbull, by reputation and history, has the means,and if it was close enough to smack, it clearly had the opportunity. As for intent - that's a judgment call, and I'd be inclined to err on the side of caution (and self-preservation), but if yelling at it and hitting it didn't deter it, I'd consider it hostile intent and seek to neutralize the threat most thoroughly and expeditiously.

I also understand theing rationale behind shoot a dog that is threatening one's livelihood (i.e. livestock), but that wasn't part of the original scenario.

[slaphappy]

A pane of glass was between an agressive pit and the home owner's cats (dinner). If that's not a threat to you and your home, I don't know what is.

[Hardware]

Pits can be excellent family pets. Anybody remember Pete the pup from Little Rascals? He was a pit bull. In fact, he is one of the foundation dogs in the AKC stud books when they originally registered the American Staffordshire Terrier. Nipper, the RCA mascot dog was a pit bull. Helen Keller and Teddy Roosevelt owned pit bulls. Suffice it to say the breed is not all bad. The illegalization of dog fighting put most of the reputable pit bull breeders out of business. Uninformed back yard breeders took over and the result was generations of ill bred, unstable dogs. Anybody remember the Doberman Pinscher problem back in the '70's? Same source, same problem, back yard breeders.

All that aside, in my location shooting a dog in your yard that isn't attacking you or someone else would probably get you in trouble. You'd probably be cleared eventually, but who needs the hassle. Take the cat out of the window and run the dog off. Sounds like you handled the situation pretty well.

[kbheiner7]

I've heard all the pro-pit arguments and none of them fly for me. They are relatively rare, but make up a large percentage of attacks. A few of these attacking dogs I personally knew and were of the "not trained to attack, good family dogs, great with kids" variety. Something in those critters heads just snaps and they go nuts.

I'm not sure if it's related, but I had a springer that got very aggressive later in life. Upon some research, I found that springers are inclined to develop a disease called Enraged Canine Syndrome.

[Can'thavenuthingood]

"Personally, GSDs are highest on my list of dogs I wouldn't want to screw with, but GSD owners tend to be less irresponsible training their animals. If you get on the bad side of an angy GSD though, watch out."

I'm lost, what's a GSD?

DAWA

Vick

[stevelyn]

At least where I live it's "my property, my rules". You don't want your dog shot? Keep them on your own land. Display of hostility just lessens what little reluctance I may have in killing it. Leash laws are in effect to reinforce this.

[meef]

I'm lost, what's a GSD?

German Shepherd Dog.

[280PLUS]

I received this via PM from a member who can identify themselves if they desire. Apparently I was mistsaken on the actual history of Dalmations. Apparently they had a job BEFORE working for the Fire Dept's. While they were not BRED for it I do believe their purpose as fire dogs was in fact crowd control per an article I read once but couldn't find today.


Hey, just a comment about Dalmatians. The reason the fire department adopted Dalmatians as their fire dogs was they were easy to train to run between the rear wheels of the old horse-drawn fire wagons. The reason they were easy to train to do that was they were bred to run between the rear wheels of horse-drawn carriages. They were bred by the people in the balkans to run with their coaches to help defend the coach from highwaymen, BGs who would jump out on a deserted road and hold up the carriages carrying wealthy people. They'd have a couple of footmen hanging on the back of the coach with weapons, plus the driver and coachman and two dogs.

Sorry for the misinformation. :o
__________________

[El Rojo]

What if it ends up killing some kid in the neighborhood a couple of days later?What if it runs in front of a bus, the driver swerves, and 30 kids die? What if, what if.

If you can get it out of your yard without shooting a gun, you are better off. I still find it interesting that so many members on here seem so eager to shoot any strange or even familiar dog that wanders onto their property, like it is a badge of honor to just shoot other people's dogs all in the interest of property rights.

Make no mistake about it, if someone's dog was attacking something it shouldn't be, I would be the first to put a 165 gr. Federal Hydroshok in it. But if it is just wandering about or even chasing cats, that is what dogs do. If you can persuade it to leave the area without using your firearm, you are better off in my opinion. Of course you can disagree and set up your M2HB on the lawn to take care of any marauding canines because no dog comes onto your property without permission!

[No_Brakes23]

What if I just shoot it in the balls with a BB or .177 pellet? That is what I have used for pest control before here in the PRK. Not much noise there. Of course if you are safe enough to shoot it with an airgun, you are probably safe enough to wait on animal control. Hmmm, maybe it is time for a new band on the slingshot...

[Byron Quick]

My father's girlfriend unlocked a chain link fence gate and neglected to lock it back. She just latched it. My fawn Doberman, who looked like the Schwarzenegger of Dobermans, could open a latched gate with his muzzle. My neighbor shot him with no other provocation than it being on his property.
I was told by the police that the only law that he violated was discharging a firearm in the city limits. He wasn't charged.

Now some here have tried to make a link between self defense laws and shooting dogs. I don't know about your state but I've never seen a statute that mentions animals in relation to self defense. Once again, your state could certainly be different than Georgia. It's like brandishing or printing...nothing in Georgia statutes about either one.

I've never looked up applicable laws but law enforcement and municipal government is on the side of the property owner who kills someone's dog here in Georgia. I've seen this more than once. I've never heard of anyone who killed an animal on their property asked,"Was it attacking you?" or"Why were you in fear of your life or grave bodily injury."

Sounds like some state legislatures might have been infiltrated by PETA.

[2nd Amendment]

I still find it interesting that so many members on here seem so eager to shoot any strange or even familiar dog that wanders onto their property, like it is a badge of honor to just shoot other people's dogs all in the interest of property rights.

Please try to avoid the hyperbole. Just because you don't understand the situation is no reason to try and color opinions. This morning I lost two more chickens to the neighbor's dog. He's been warned. He's too stupid, and yes I use that word specifically because he is indeed after years of drugs and booze too stupid, to control the animal. Moreover there are other dogs around here that run with that one.

Also, in rural areas we don't have a viable "Humane Society" and the cops don't have the time nor interest(not that I would allow them on my property if they did). Add in a coyote problem and a sporadic feral dog pack problem and you get what has been SOP for American history: Shoot the offending animal. It has nothing to do with any idea so terribly foolish as a badge of honor. It is though about property rights: Control your property, do not destroy mine or expect to lose yours.

Simple equation, eh?

[El Rojo]

This morning I lost two more chickens to the neighbor's dog...Control your property, do not destroy mine or expect to lose yours.If a dog is attacking you, your pet, or your livestock, then shoot the dog. I never said don't shoot dogs, in fact I said I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an attacking dog and would most certainly step out and help anyone that is experiencing a dog attack. If a dog is killing your livestock, take it out. There is nothing wrong with that.

What I have a problem with is just shooting someone's pet for no other reason than it is your property and you have a "right" to do what you want on your property. Byron Quick had a good example of his dog being shot simply because it was out. Sometimes dogs get out, I would be very appreciative of a neighbor who worked with me on getting my dogs back alive. I know I would want to declare war on any neighbor that just hauls off and shoots my dogs because they are on his/her property. If my dog gets out and starts to attack a little kid, shoot it (the dog not the kid!).

Please try to avoid the hyperbole. Just because you don't understand the situation is no reason to try and color opinions.I understand the situation. Maybe you should re-read my post and debate my points rather than making claims about my understanding that are unfounded.

[2nd Amendment]

Ya know, I went back through and read the whole thread again. I can't find a single instance of a single person advocating shooting them just because they are there. I can find lots of talk about being attacked, having animals or property destroyed, etc. Even noting putting one across the bow to try and run them off prior to punching their clock.

The first person saying anything about casually shooting any dog was you. The only person to imply anything "honorable" about it, even if needed, was you. And like I said, someone is always doing this sort of thing. Thus why I said the hyperbole and generalization was completely unnecessary and in this thread just plain wrong. Seems like there always has to be someone these days to question what not long ago would have been accepted withouty need to question, and that bugs me. Sorry...

[TonkinTwentyMil]

A few months ago, I was out for my nightly 2-mile stroll. Since the spouse was ill, I was alone, so I took the opportunity to carry/test 2 new flashlights. As it turned out, they saved the day. Here's what happened:

While walking through an area of upscale suburban homes, a Pit Bull suddenly leaped at me from between 2 parked cars in a driveway. As I had both (!) flashlights (SL Scorpion and SF C2/KL1) in my hands, I just reflexively (and instantly) "spotted" the dog -- with both lights. For about 10 seconds, he just stood there on the sidewalk, barking/snarling/fang-brandishing -- 5 feet from me. As the lights seemed to disorient/hold him at bay, I was able to slip one of the flashights into a coat pocket and (fumbling nervously) replace it with a canister of O.C. Without hesitating, I ******d his face with the peppergas -- and that did the trick, turning him away.

The next day, I reported this to the local Animal Control officer. He investigated, then told me he could find no such dog at that address, OR nearby!

LESSONS-LEARNED:
1. Dog attacks can happen FASTER -- with zero warning -- than the typical street mugging (and I've been through a handful of both).
2. Being INSTANTLY prepared (with O.C. and/or a bright FL in hand) may be your only shot at avoiding a painful, bloody result (for you). Living in Condition Yellow/Orange alertness ("Paranoia" to the victims-in-waiting Sheeple) is highly recommended.
3. Bright, high-quality, instantly-deployble FL's (that are always with you) are worth their weight in gold. This was about the tenth time in the past 2 decades when I've used one to Save The Day.

Now, when I'm out for night walks, I always have a good FL in one hand and an O.C. can, or ASP baton, or Spyderco Civilian in the other -- nanny-state "weapons laws" be damned. Yeah, I know a .38 158 JHP +P would be more effective, but I live in a marginally "blue" Lib-snot/Bambi-ist/grass-eater area now, and the subsequent legal hassles would be significant. Despite Sceramin' Howie Dean's assertions that Gun Control is no longer on the Dems' (national) agenda, many local politicians wouldn't shrink to use ANY gun incident to polish their image for career advancement up the national-politics ladder.

The dog that attacked me had tags on its collar, so it apparently was another irresponsible owner's on-the-loose pet. That dog -- and its owner -- are still out there.

[svtruth]

I seem to remember that it was in SF that a woman was killed in the hallway of her apt house by a pair of dogs belonging to a neighbor. If she had had a weapon sh might have survived.

[Tag]

So I guess I have something to add as well,

This past February a friend and I were snowshoeing in the wooded areas that surround our apartments. He had just gotten a seven month old pit, which had up to this point done reasonably well with my four year old Lab. After a steep climb up to an open ridge, with our dogs in tow, all hell broke loose.
My dog made a run for the front of the line, bumping his dog out of the way in the process. Half way past the pit clamps down on the back of my dogs neck. This was the first real fight these two had been in and both my friend and I were on top of them fast. The pit-bull was locked onto the back of my dog’s neck, who was whimpering pitifully. My friend was having no luck getting his dog to unclench its jaws. I moved off a little and hit the pit-bull as hard as I could about four times in the nose. This broke him off, and we collapsed on both dogs.

We went back on separate routes, and my dog seemed to be ok, there was no blood on the snow that I could see at the time. Once we got back I found some pretty deep puncture wounds. He was not bleeding very badly, so I cleaned him up and put a towel down on the couch.

I don't know if I would have shot my friends pit-bull in that situation even if I had been packing at the time. But as was mentioned earlier in this thread, Pit bulls are dangerous. More to other dogs then people generally, but I think of it as similar to keeping a mountain lion in the house. :what:

[stevelyn]

I seem remember that it was in SF a woman was killed in the hallway of her apt house by a pair of dogs belonging her neighbors. If she'd had a weapon she might have survived.

Yes. And the owners might not have gone to jail either.

[El Rojo]

Ya know, I went back through and read the whole thread again. I can't find a single instance of a single person advocating shooting them just because they are there.Are you sure about that 2nd Amendment?As far as I am concerned, if he's out of his yard or out of his owners control, he's a menace to society and should be dealt with as such. Just because the dog wasn't a direct threat to you, (and I think he was, ain't no window that can stop a dog that powerful) doesn't mean that he isn't going to maul a 6 year old when he runs off from your property. Post #34At least where I live it's "my property, my rules". You don't want your dog shot? Keep them on your own land. Display of hostility just lessens what little reluctance I may have in killing it. Leash laws are in effect to reinforce this. Post #41I guess you skipped right past those eh 2nd Amendment? I was ready to apologize too if I jumped off the handle, but it looks like I knew what I was talking about.

[2nd Amendment]

Post 34 appears to me to be focused primarily on the animal's liklihood of inflicting damage and less so on location. Now 41 I'll give you, I missed that one. Still, that's one out of...54 posts. I guess it's all in perception, eh, Rojo?

BTW, note to self: Remember the earplugs before cranking up the CETME on an enclosed porch(say WHAT? I can't hear you...). Also, remember trees and other heavy cover can play hob with even a .308. OTOH close is very likely good enough to assure chicken-murdering mutt stays gone for a while this time...I hope...

[XLMiguel]

I have a neighbor with a beagle and beagle/basset mix that get loose regularly. They seem (to date) to be just a pair of doofy, happy dogs out for a stroll. I have put a rope (sometimes, with some efffort) on them and returned them to her several times, suggesting that she really needs to pay more atention, Ffx Co has a leash law, yadda-yadda. Doesn't seem to sink in (basic NOVA/Fairfax Co bliss-ninney type). Now these guys seem to be harmless, easy enough to take them home, but I prolly ought to call animal control on her, but nice dogs (?), dumb owner -

I fear the day when I'm out in the yard with Jake the cat and they wander by, and the dog/cat thing gets going on. If I can't run them off, I will deal with them, one way or the other, cuz no mutt is going to do Jake the Cat in his own yard, capishe? I've had other unknown dogs wander in, I tell them to go home, so far, all have, but I'm armed in the yard most of he time. . . .

If you care for your animal, control it.

[Kim]

I had a very sad and bad thing just happen this past Thursday night. I have a field about 25 feet from my house fenced also with an electric fence along the bottom. It rained and stormed that night so I did not hear anything and I feel just awful. I have two sheep, a very cute minature goat and a pig--------all pets. Have had them about 8 years. My mule died about 2 weeks ago from natural causes----their first line of protection was gone. I woke up Friday morning to a massacre. Two dogs (looked like black labs with red collars were in the field).I called my brother-in-law to help. The dogs left about 15 minutes prior to him arriving. All three animals(not the pig) had been killed visicously. Throats ripped out faces eaten etc. I was sick and mad. I did report to police and took pictures. I have their blessing to dispatch of said Dogs when seen again. Neighborhood armed watch is ongoing with all neighbors. I fear for children much less animals. :mad:

[2nd Amendment]

Wow. I feel for you. This sort of thing absolutely sucks. I am tempted to ask if you are in my neck of the woods. We have had two black labs with red collars running this area regularly for a couple months. They are still alive only because they've done no damage to me or mine(that I know of).

[Kim]

I'm in Arkansas. I haven't really sat down and allowed myself to think about it. But if I see those dogs again I will let my mind think of the poor defenseless sheep and that cute little goat trapped in "the I thought safe place that became their death chamber". I feel really bad that I was not able to help them. It must have been awful for them, the storm would have been bad enough but, they had a nice pole barn to get in. The pig seems distressed since. Kinda subdued and lonely. Now I am not an animal right type person I gladly hunt but I do not like animals that are pets under my care being killed by other persons pets or protected species. I really will not like shooting the dogs but I think it is necessary for a safety reason. I really should have done it at the moment and not waited for help. But I knew it would be difficult for me and my family member would not have the same dificulty as I would or will. He spent a while digging the hole with his tractor to bury the poor things. The only good thing is I had no children that I had to tell. He had three that live right next door to me and they were devastated. They often come and played and feed them. Dang, I guess I am not as mean as I should be. I think my female traits said "Let him do it" and because of that they are still out there somewhere. :o

[Hardware]

For svtruth and stevelyn,

I followed that case closely. The woman killed was named Diane Whipple. The owners of the dogs, both lawyers by the way, were Robert Noel and Marjorie Knoller. The dogs were Presa Canarios, Canary Island Mastiffs. The details of the case read like COPS meets Days of our Lives. Here's a link.

Diane Whipple case (http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/Whipple.html)

[arcticap]

I live near a park in a city with lots of dogs & pit bulls roaming around. I even have one living in the neighborhood that causes me to be concerned for the safety of children and elderly when it slips out of it's fenced yard. However, the thought that someone might merely be charged with the illegal discharge of a firearm may be too simplistic. Not necessarily because killing a dog would be illegal, but rather because the issuing authority for CCW permits here is largely in the hands of the local police chief who can revoke a person's CCW permanently unless forced to return it by court order. I would speculate that a person who shoots a threatening dog in some cities, under some circumstances, could have some costly, unintended legal consequences in that respect.

[280PLUS]

I remember another brother (I have 5) telling me how one day his door and the apt door across the hall were opened at the same time. The neighbor's Pit ran across the hall, into his apt. and grabbed his cat by the throat. HE jumped on the dog, somehow subdued it, got his cat back and tossed the dog back out of his apt striking the wall across the hall, injuring the dog somewhere in the process. The dog had opened up the cat's throat.

Here's the good part:
THE CONDO ASSOCIATION FINED HIM FOR INJURING THE DOG!

:eek:

I don't know if the dog owner was also fined.

He didn't sue because apparently you can't get blood out of a stone.

[mainmech48]

My situation is much like Mike in Virginia's, and so far I have had only one situation where deadly force became a serious consideration.

Our town has a 'leash law', and most folks in our neighborhood abide by it. Of the instances where free-running dogs have come on to my property a yell has usually been enough to resolve things. On a couple of occasions, I've had to punctuate it with a BB to the butt from the old low-powered Daisy kept by the door for garbage can duty to make my point clear. If I recognize the dog, I'll let the owner know that it's loose.

Aggression from any animal towards me or mine on my own property is another negotiation entirely. Species, breed, etc. have very little to do with it. I don't particularly care whether it's a pit bull, a Yorkshire terrier, or an angry raccoon: I can and will exercise whatever level of force I might deem necessary to terminate the threat. I am neither inclined nor required to load myself down like Alice's White Knight with every Monday Morning Quarterback's idea of a "less-lethal" option in order to go about my own business in my own yard. IMO, no 'reasonable man' is, nor should anyone presume to say otherwise. To paraphrase Justice Holmes, "Detached reflection is not required in the presence of a bared tooth."

My wife and I have two cats. Like Mike, we take them out into the yard on a harness and leash. Usually, some harsh words and an upraised hand are enough to convince canine interlopers to leave.

On one occasion, I had to actually draw my Para C7.45 on a 'shepard-mix' mongrel, with collar, that came charging into my yard. It would not stop trying to get at the cat, even after I had whacked it on the head twice with my closed hand as it tried to lunge around me. The cat (and I) had retreated to the porch during the fooraw, and I was in the process of taking up the last slack in the trigger when the local police rolled up, followed in short order by an irate woman claiming to be the dog's owner.

SHE had called them, claiming that I was attacking her dog!! The look on her face as the officers handed her the citations and informed her that she would be arrested and charged with Reckless Endangerment if I chose to file the complaint was priceless.

[Tory]

"He didn't sue (for the harm to his cat) because apparently you can't get blood out of a stone."

Let's check the facts:

1. This was in a CONDO;

2. The person who owned the dog LIVED in the condo;

Ergo, the dog's owner likely also owned the condo and had an income stream to pay the mortgage and condo fees.

Sounds like a pretty ripe "stone" to me. :scrutiny:


In 1993, a dog in our neighborhood was allowed out, unchecked, and in violation of the leash law. It came into our yard as part of a pack of 3, where it attacked and killed our youngest cat as it lay on our deck.

The owner was a waste of protoplasm; an erstwhile "carpenter" who, in his mid to late 20's, still lived at home and was driven around by his sister because he had no car. I took him to Small Claims Court, where his mother came with him....... :rolleyes:

He lost. He paid. With a bucket of change on the final day of the judgment; the change was supposed to paralyze me as it did him and his equally idiotic friend. The two of them spent hours counting it.

My sister-in-law took it to the bank with her tips and had them dump it in the change-counting machine. A reciept and check issued in minutes. ;)

I gave the money to the pound the cat was adopted from.

Now explain to us how someone who owns a condo has FEWER assets than a schmuck who still lives at home and goes to court with his mommy?

[spacemanspiff]

before i became a gunowner, i always had an industrial sized can of pepper spray in my coat pocket. so one night i'm walking home, and i hear something behind me. its a 60 lb pit barrelling at me full speed. as soon as i turn around the pit stops (well actually slides as it was winter at the time) and starts circling me.
its not growling, not barking, just circling. i've got my pepper spray out and am yelling at the dog to go home. it keeps edging closer and closer. when its about 3 feet away i give it a full face blast of spray.
the pit doesnt whine, doesnt run away. it stands there, sneezes a few times, and is ready for more. i ran after the 2nd spray.

because of that, i dont have 100% confidence in pepper spray.
what i am convinced of, is that had i not turned around when i did, the dog would have tore me up.



responsible pet owners need to make absolutely sure their animals don't get off their property, if they care about the safety of their pets.
don't want your dog run over by a car? keep it securely locked up in your yard or home. don't want your dog shot or hit over the head with a lead pipe? keep it locked up.

[DarkKnight01]

chicken-murdering mutt stays gone for a while this time...I hope...

Too bad you missed, dogs like that need to be dispatched quickly.

I remember a time I was hunting. On state land, walking an old logging trail.. Looking for the biggen... Off to my right I spot 2 does.. AHHA!! And a buck closing in... Sniffing about with his tongue hanging out.. a decent 6-8 point.. nothing to mount over the fire... but certainly good meat for the freezar.. So I pull up my scoped 30-06 savage.. flick the safety off.. take aim on his heart.. just as im about to squeeze something startles them. Im like NOO!! they take off running... followed by a little black dog!! ARGHHH!! I put my cross hairs on the dog... But I hesitated.. I let him live.. About 30 minutes later I came out on the other side of the logging road to a rural area.. and a house... with dog tracks all over the yard... I knock on the door... A gentleman answers.. I ask if he owns a little black dog with a blue collar.. He says yes... I inform him of the dogs actions.. And I tell him I nearly shot him.. He wasnt very happy with that comment but I didnt care, I recommended he keep his dog tied up during hunting season.. and the next time I see his dog running deer im gonna kill it.

[Sean Smith]

I love dogs. But if a dog is out of control, and if it presents a real threat to somebody, then it is perfectly justifiable to kill it immediately.

[slaphappy]

I love how some people have such a love for dogs that they question the harm of a pit bull in one's back yard, but when it's a cat, they take out the .300 Win Mag. The pit might rip your throat out, but that tomcat is gonna piss everywhere! I'm not directing this at any particular poster, but I see that kind of logic from lots of people. An out of place animal is an out of place animal.

[XLMiguel]

Kim, my condolences on the loss of your pets. That's very sad and I hope you find the guilty parties and get justice.

I will say that if someone's 'pet' kills my pet on my property, I will do my damnedest to kill the sumbich ('offending 'pet'). If the owner has a problem with that, his/her/its problems are just beginning :fire: Same for the owner of the pit in the condo attack. It's a shame the dog got away without it throat slit or head stappled to the floor with a couple of 9's. :fire: :fire:

[JJNA]

Species, breed, etc. have very little to do with it. I don't particularly care whether it's a pit bull, a Yorkshire terrier, or an angry raccoon.Absolutely.

I have two dogs. I abide by all relevant laws, including lead law and licensing and vaccination requirements. One of my dogs occasionally demonstrates inter-dog aggression, particularly toward other male dogs, but I control and correct him, and he responds well (he has undergone strenuous obedience training and substantially less aggressive toward other dogs than when I first rescued him).

Now the problem is usually not him. Often owners or handlers of other dogs allow their dogs to run toward my dogs with little demonstrable control ("Oh, he just wants to say 'hi'"). As my male dog is not a "social" type and has very strong dominance, terroritoriality and prey instincts, he at times responds with threat displays when he sees something that could be an attack by another dog, such as rapid movement toward him (but he has learned that children running rapidly toward him is a good thing). Of course, all this has been complicated by the fact that my dogs and I have been repeatedly attacked by several loose dogs while on walks in the past.

My other dog is a "lover" and even likes to play with strange cats and absolutely adores children, but even with her, I watch over like a hawk over any interaction she has with "those outside the pack." As much as she has been perfect enduring all kinds of less-than perfect behavior from children, I cannot guarantee that one day she will not bite a child who sticks a finger in her eye.

It seems that many dog owners are unaware of basic facts about dogs. They are, deep inside, pack-oriented and predatory creatures that have been domesticated to some extent. Even "cute little" dogs are capable of aggression toward other dogs and people, particularly children and can do considerable bodily harm.

All dog owners should realize the heavy responsibility that comes with owning an animal that could be aggressive toward others at any time no matter how "sweet" and "gentle" with family members (those inside the pack), but it seems that so many of today's dog owners are intent on seeing their dogs as human children who don't talk back. That's ultimately bad for the humans and the dogs involved. I have seen as many (and perhaps more) dogs "go aggressive" from too much love and not enough discipline and training as from abuse.

All breeds are afflicted with this problem, because it is ultimately about the owners and handlers, not the dogs. It is true that some dogs have more tendency toward particular types of behavior, but they are, in the final analysis, human fashioned and channeled.

I have met some excellently reared and trained American Pit Bull Terriers, and they have been simply incredible dogs -- brave, loyal, powerful, caring and greatly tolerant of family children. Then again, I have seen many APBTs and mixes that are utterly aggressive and dangerous.

In my experience, the difference has almost always been the human factor.

[Byron Quick]

I live in a small town but I've spent enough time in the country to know about pets running loose. I've been chased by a feral dog pack. I've seen feral cats amusing themselves by killing everything they can catch. The deal about animals will not kill what they will not eat is a myth. Domestic cats will kill to be killing and when they go feral they don't lose that urge. Now if I see your dog on my hunting property with a collar on and just wandering around being a dog...I won't kill it...not the first time. I'll try to find you and have a heart to heart. Hunting dogs around here usually have brass plates with the owner's name and telephone number. I call them up and tell them to come pick up your dog. Then I go feed them.

Dogs and cats in rural areas without collars who have their ribs showing are shot on sight. I've seen the cost of not shooting them. I'm not willing to pay it.

[gunsmith]

and that of the neighbor kids,I hope you catch the owner of the dogs and make them pay