The Miami Shootout. You're thoughts?


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megatronrules
March 15, 2003, 06:08 PM
I was reading up on this. It seems like a real mess occured out there. From what I can gather, The FBI brought handguns to a rifle fight, and got beat bad :(
Platt was a dead scumbag who refused to just die and do everyone a favor. The 9mm cartridge was crucified for its "failure".
Im no expert, but it seems that 9mm really did a lot of damage to Platt. I sat here and thought about something though.
Why did the Feds go after these guys without rifles or subguns?
These guys were stone killers.They were always known to have long guns with them too. It seems like a bad choice in tactics. Im not putting the LEO's down. They were in a hell of a spot and what they did was nothing short of heroic. Yet I have to ask the question about the whole long gun issue. What are you're thoughts on this?

[Spelling error in title edited by Matt G]

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Hkmp5sd
March 15, 2003, 06:17 PM
I think the FBI agents underestimated the BGs. They thought that once they hit the sirens, flashed their badge and yelled FBI, the BGs would surrender instead of fighting it out. After all, it was 8-2 in favor of the agents.

IMO, if one or two of the agents had an AR/M16 or Mini-14 type carbine of their own, the end would have been fewer injured and dead agents. Platt's Mini-14 was the deciding factor in how well the BGs fought. The shotgun of Matix was not even a factor.


Of course, it's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.

cheygriz
March 15, 2003, 06:31 PM
Typical FBI operation! Piss poor training and doctrine. Even poorer supervision, (if indeed there was any supervision at all) and even poorer policy! What the marines call a **cluster...&*&^..*** well you get the picture.

Bad mouthing of excellent ammunition. Got to have something or someone other than the bureau to blame it on. Multi million dollar, totally useless "ammo study," determines that "lo and behold," if the 9mm SILVERTIP had been a "MAGIC" bullet, the FBI would have won the fight. Millions more spent to develop "MAGIC" bullets.

Still no closer to "MAGIC" bullet than we were before.

Well thought out and proven doctrine of designing bullets to prevent overpenetration and protection of innocent bystanders goes out the window. Current Law enforcement ammunition designed to kill the BG, AND three or four innocent people behind him.

WOW! Thanks to the FBi For some real progress.

AK103K
March 15, 2003, 06:34 PM
I think this shoot out totally dispells the show COPS and proves that if your determined and dont lay down, there is a good chance you can prevail. They will have you believe you cant win, but this, and the CA. bank robbery, amoung a few others, proves that it isnt quite so. We have been programed to believe that if your shot, your dead, or at least incapacitated, and cant fight or continue, or so the TV, movies, and those who wish to control you, will have you believe. Truth is, just look at the animals we hunt. A deer will run untill every drop of blood is gone from him, and still go farther. He does this because he doesnt know he's dead, he just runs till he physically cant go any further and drops. If all the "bad guys" in the world did this, the cops, and all of us for that matter, would be in a lot of trouble. Agreed, the good guys prevailed in the above examples, but it could have easily turned the other way, especially in Miami. I think the "expected" response from most police is "conditioned" compliance from most people, when they encounter someone who is willing to fight, especially someone who knows how and gets to it quickly, the game is on, and depending how it starts, I dont think the good guys are always going to win. Then again, depending on the circumstances, you may one day find yourself on the wrong side of this equation, just because of your views on guns, or a non compliant additude. Your not dead till your dead, and then it wont matter, cause you wont know it.

Ian
March 15, 2003, 07:23 PM
Some of the major errors committed by the combatants:

Only 1 of the 11 participants had body armor on (Agent McNeill). If you know a gunfight is likely, there's no excuse not to wear armor (this goes doubly for the FBI agents, who were trying to take down a pair of bank robbers known to be well-armed, military-trained, and ruthless). Many of the wounds inflicted in the fight would have been far less effective had body armor been used.

None of the participants had trained for one-handed andweak-handed shooting and reloading. During the fight, 4 of them had to resort to it (Platt, Mireles, McNeill, and Hanlon). The most obvious example of this is Platt's last offensive with the .357 Magnum - having been shot in his strong arm, he used his weak hand to fire 3 shots nearly point blank at either Agent Mireles or McNeill and missed with all 3. The FBI agents also exhibited little of no evidence of team tactics training. Several agents should have been working to flank Platt and Matix while others provided covering fire.

Revolvers are not well-suited for extended gunfights, as they have low capacity and are slow to reload. Why 4 of the 9 FBI agents would choose to go into a felony car stop with revolvers as primary weapons (a 2 1/2" 5-shot S&W, in McNeill's case) is beyond me. Agent Manauzzi had a Remington 870, but he chose to leave it in the back seat of his car. Worse, he had his primary (and only) weapon (an S&W revolver) on the front seat of his car rather than in its holster. When his car crashed, it was lost in the car, leaving him unarmed.

All 5 participants with secondary weapons used them. They were of little effect, because they were generally snubby revolvers - but they were used. A properly prepared combatant would have chosen a more efficient backup weapon (and trained a lot with it).

Everyone with a semi-auto ran out of ammo for it. Platt emptied all his Mini-14 mags and had to switch to Matix' .357. Dove died with his S&W 459's slide locked back. Risner ran out of mags for his 459. Risner emptied his revolver and couldn't find any more ammo. The only reason the Grogan, Manauzzi, and Hanlon didn't run dry was that they were killed or severely wounded before they had the chance to. If you're going into a gunfight, take more ammo!

The only rifle in the fight was Platt's Mini-14, and with it he was responsible for 6 of the 8 FBI casualties. If the Agents had been armed with rifles, they would have had a much easier time making hits (and effective ones) on Platt and Matix and would likely have suffered fewer casualties. If that Mini-14 had been a .308, the Agents might well have been defeated completely - the hit on Mireles arm would probably have killed him, and without him his partners would have been in deep trouble.

megatronrules
March 15, 2003, 07:36 PM
Wow! You guys know you're stuff ! I think AK103 has some very good points. You almost never see anyone resist an LEO, except to run. Running is not resisting though its evading:D
Platt was not a man who understood what surrender was it seems. Then again when you go over the line the way those guys did surrender must not even be an option anymore. Whats the point? As far as the NH Bank shootout. Those guys could have walked through the cops that were there on scene,before all the other arrived. They wasted time blasting away at everything. Not very smart, then again neither is bank robbery:D
Some people have no brains it seems,though the body armor was a smart move. They also brought lots of rifles which is never a bad thing either.
All in all some very interesting points on the Miami shootout. I thought Platt had a Mini 14. Wasnt sure though. It said .223 rifle in the article i read. That narrows it down!:D

Double Naught Spy
March 15, 2003, 08:16 PM
The FBI guys who effected the stop were NOT prepared to do battle with Platt and Matix. The original plan had been to have agents up an down the road where they expected the robberies to potentially be and then to call in the heavy boys in SWAT gear, which they did. The only problem was that the boys who were in the SWAT gear were also patrolling in a different area and could not make it to the location before the fight started. They rolled up about the time that last couple of shots were fired.

So all the unprepared aspects that IAN referred to seem to be correct, but the reason for the lack of preparedness was because the agents in the cars really were not ever planning on being the ones to do the stop. Unfortunately, poor planning was bad for them.

Add to that aspect that two officers lost their guns during the various car crashes. One lost his only gun and so he was a non-combatant for the fight and basically served as a witness. Another had to go to his 5 shot backup worn in an ankle holster.

Of note, anytime the bad guys are really prepared, cops and good guys suffer and suffer badly. With no disrespect to LEOs intended, when they come across the guys, as in the N. Hollywood Bank robbery or Miami FBI shoot, the officers/agents explain the shock and confusion against being in a situation where the bad guys not only don't fear them, but aren't going down and that really throws off the game plan. I really like what Clint Smith had to say to a handgun class I took concerning bad guys and their responses during armed conflict, "They don't read Guns & Ammo or Combat Handguns and they have no idea that when they have been shot that they are supposed to fall down and stop fighting." Of course, multiple layers of body armor helps with that as well.

Suicide bomber terrorists, kamikazi pilots in WWII, and goal oriented bad guys who have no definitive plans for their retirement years will always be some of the absolute worst types of bad guys to go against as they are not afraid to die, going into situations with a sort of binary mentality that either they will live and get away (goal oriented bad guys, not suicide bombers) or die. There is no in between answer for them.

Thank about it.
Platt and Matix.
North Hollywood Bank Robbery guys
Whitman in the UT Bell Tower in the 60s.
Bonnie and Clyde

And so on.

Deadman
March 15, 2003, 08:17 PM
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Probably the main point I've taken from the Miami shootout (as far as I understand it anyway) is that if Platt had pulled back and increased the distance from himself and the FBI agents, he could well have survived.
Whereas pushing forward with suppressive/offensive fire on his own, while devestating to the agents, pretty much lead to his death as it was easier for the agents to engage Platt.
Afterall if he had been even 50yards away or more from the agents, their short barreled handguns and 1 shotgun would not have been anywhere near as effective as his Mini14.
If he had been about 100yards out, the agents would have had no chance considering how determined he was.

And if Platt was wearing a ballistic vest, that would have greatly changed the course of events as well.

Hkmp5sd
March 15, 2003, 08:21 PM
1. None of the FBI agents was wearing a rifle rated vest. Two agents were wearing pistol rated vests, McNeil and Risner.(McNeil's vest wasn't a factor anyway because he was hit in the neck and paralyzed.)

2. Grogan, SWAT trained and the best combat shooter of the group, lost his glasses during the felony carstop. He was completely blind during the shootout. A strap and spare glasses is a must for those with poor vision.

3. The 5 FBI cars involved contained a total of 12 shotguns. Only 2 of them were accessible, the other 10 being locked in the car's trunks. Mireles exits his vehicle with one shotgun and McNeil is hit whenever he makes the decision to go for the shotgun in his back seat and stands up in front of Platt. As a side note, there were 5 other FBI cars involved in the rolling stakeout that did not arrive at the scene until the shooting was over. Two of those cars contained MP5's.

4. Both Hanlon and Manauzzi unholster their primary handguns prior to the felony carstop, placing the guns in their laps. Both guns were lost during the collision resulting in Hanlon being armed only with his 5-shot snubbie backup and Manauzzi being unarmed for the entire fight.


Deadman,

Platt was hit by a shot fired from Dove's 9mm as he exited his car. This was a fatal wound. He was a walking deadman (no pun), regardless of where he went.

DeltaElite
March 15, 2003, 08:40 PM
Poor tactics, training and mind set, met up with well trained, tactically inclined men who refused to die easily.
The FBI technically won, but their losses were heavy. :(

bad_dad_brad
March 15, 2003, 08:40 PM
Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

Never bring a handgun to a rifle fight.

This incident clearly shows how truly powerful a rifle is in the hands of a determined opponent, especially if the other side only has handguns and a shotgun.

I do think the 9mm round got a bad rap from this un-fair comparison, but the up-side was the 9mm self-defense rounds of today are clearly superior to back then.

Funny, in my State, they are trying to ban so called "assault rifles" like the AR-15, but the ban does not include the Mini-14, unless I put a Choate pistol grip stock on it that is. Like that would make diff! Gun laws! A lever action .30-30 in the hands of the B.G. in this situation would have been just as effective.

Zundfolge
March 15, 2003, 09:00 PM
Whenever I argue with antis their response to my claim that the 2nd amendment is there so we will have the means to overthrow a corrupt government is to say that armed civilians are no match for the military or other authorities.

I site the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and the Miami Shootout as examples of how outnumbered civilians put up a good fight.


on a side issue, there are 2 good things that came out of the whole thing; 10mm and .40S&W :) (even if we don't agree with the FBI's "blaming" of the 9x19)

COHIBA
March 15, 2003, 09:21 PM
there was nothing miraculos about the shooting. nothing "gone wrong". no amount of supervision or bigger bullets would have helped.
the main thing to be learned is what i learned 20 years ago about pistols.
start tape...
"A pistol is an intermediate weapon. its sole existance is to allow one to fight to a rifle or shotgun"
read it
learn it
live it.
people MAY go down from pistol fire that does not put them OOC (out of commision) forever.
get to the smoothbore as fast as you can and end the fight. dont hunker down and exchange little slow bullets with little fast ones.
everytime i pull the trigger on a 12 gaOOBK rd . i put 9 .30 cal nickle plated bullets at 1325 fps downrange. 2 shots=a glock mag.
you do the math.

DrDremel
March 15, 2003, 09:48 PM
It shows that semi-autos are not superior to revolvers, it shows that people that can't shoot won't win. It shows that Govt never admits they are wrong or insuperior.

Hkmp5sd
March 15, 2003, 09:53 PM
nothing "gone wrong". no amount of supervision or bigger bullets would have helped.

I think the lack of proper prior preparedness and poor tactics played a far greater role in causing the carnage to the agents than the firearms being used.

They knew they were going up against BGs that used a .223 carbine and had no qualms about killing. Everyone should of had rifle rated vests. Three agents were SWAT members (Grogan, Dove and Risner) and could have carried MP5's or M16's if they wanted. The remaining shotguns should have been accessible. If Grogan had a strap on his glasses, his fire along with Dove's fire may have killed the BG's before they could exit thier vehicle. Only one agent took effective cover and was therefore the only agent not wounded. Unholstered guns resulted in the loss of two primary weapons. Not carrying a backup left one agent useless after losing his primary weapon. The agents were not trained on one-handed reloading nor one-handed use of shotguns.

And the big tactical error was Grogan/Dove not dropping back while following the BGs and having local cops set up a roadblock farther ahead with overwhelming numbers of LEOs and weapons.

Pilgrim
March 15, 2003, 10:19 PM
Whenever I argue with antis their response to my claim that the 2nd amendment is there so we will have the means to overthrow a corrupt government is to say that armed civilians are no match for the military or other authorities.

Go down to your local police or sheriff's department and assess how easy it is to bottle up two-thirds of the entire department up at shift change.

The antis who pooh-pooh the ability of an armed populace to stand up to the armed might of the United States forget that the armed might of the U.S. needs a secure base to operate from. Also, just how much territory do the antis think the 82 Airborne can pacify and secure? Delaware?

Then ask your antis how much territory can one police officer pacify and secure? How about his living room and front yard? Which is about all he will want to secure if things get stinky.

Bruce

Deadman
March 16, 2003, 01:01 AM
Platt was hit by a shot fired from Dove's 9mm as he exited his car. This was a fatal wound. He was a walking deadman (no pun), regardless of where he went.

You're right, I didn't quite catch onto that point from the last time I read about the Miami shootout. However if Platt had been wearing a ballistic vest that 1st wound might not have been fatal.
Plus he may not have been shot as many times as he was, if he fought from a greater distance.

But one disconcerting aspect in regards to Platt is that although he suffered the most number of wounds he still had a heart beat after the gunfight -
' Arriving paramedics came to the aid of the FBI agents first and then shifted their attention to Platt and Matix. According to Dr. Anderson, paramedics found no signs of life in Grogan, Dove or Matix and no first aid was attempted. Whereas, Platt appears to have still had a heartbeat because paramedics inserted an airway tube and began administering intravenous fluids. Platt died at the scene without regaining consciousness ' :uhoh:

Platt ready for a gunfight or not was one determined sob.

Apple a Day
March 16, 2003, 01:51 PM
One thing I am still a bit fuzzy on: How/why did the agents sandwich the BGs' car in between themselves and all end up crashed into a tree?
With the shooters that close together it seems that a free-for-all is inevitable with everyone getting a chance to shovel out lots of punishment to everyone else before enough time passes to bleed out. Everyone ends up shot.
:confused:

Hkmp5sd
March 16, 2003, 03:12 PM
One thing I am still a bit fuzzy on: How/why did the agents sandwich the BGs' car in between themselves and all end up crashed into a tree?

There was a single file line of cars with Platt/Matix in the lead, followed by the cars of Grogan/Dove, Hanlon/Mireles and finally Manauzzi.

When McNeil ordered the felony carstop, the Grogan/Dove car swung around to the left and pulled in front of Platt/Matix. Hanlon/Mireles pulled alongside the left of the BG car and Manauzzi closed up directly behind them.

Manauzzi rams the BG car from behind. This causes the BG car to spin out to the left and the Hanlon/Mireless car to spin out to the right.

The BG car is now facing in the opposite direction and Matix begins pulling in back onto the road. Manauzzi spins his car around and rams the Monte Carlo, crashing it into the tree and coming to a stop door-to-door with each other.

As Manauzzi bails out the left side of his car, McNeil arrives and stops his car perpendicular to the left rear of Manauzzi's car.

The Grogan/Dove car has turned around and pulled up behind the Monte Carlo.

The Hanlon/Mireless car collides with a block wall on the opposite side of the street following the initial collision and they exit the car from that point. They are about 3 car lengths behind the Grogan/Dove car.

At this point Orrantia/Risner arrive in another vehicle and stop across the street from the Monte Carlo. They are the fartherest away of all agents involved in the shootout. They were about 6 car lengths behind McNeil's car, forward of the Monte Carlo.

So at the start of the shooting, the only ones really on top of each other are Platt/Matix and Manauzzi (there were some civilain cars parked in the area that are show on some of the drawings).

JohnKSa
March 16, 2003, 10:10 PM
The FBI guys who effected the stop were NOT prepared to do battle with Platt and Matix.
I think everyone agrees with that statement.
The original plan had been...
These guys were smart enough to know that plans go out the window when the action starts. Or, at least, they should have been.

They were out looking for Matix and Platt. They knew M&Ps M.O. and what type of weapons they preferred. They were hoping to catch them right before, right after, or during a robbery. They had access to a wide variety of long guns and ammo. And yet, they were carrying handguns almost exclusively and few of them even had a rational plan for reloading.

This was a perfect case of poor planning, shored up by overconfidence and poor tactics.

Marko Kloos
March 16, 2003, 10:13 PM
The Miami Shootout. You're thoughts?

"Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you".

No revelations of tactical truth here, just a bad day for the Feebs.

BigG
March 17, 2003, 09:17 AM
They forgot to adhere to the Six P principle. See The Killer Elite for explanation by Robert Duvall.

Blain
March 17, 2003, 11:20 AM
If you were going into such a shootout and you knew the details, would you bring a combat shotgun or a rifle, and why?

Blain
March 17, 2003, 03:37 PM
No preferences?

Hkmp5sd
March 17, 2003, 04:22 PM
would you bring a combat shotgun or a rifle

I'd prefer a M4/M14 or a Mini-14 over a shotgun. There were two shotguns brought into play and the Mini-14 still did the most damage. If Risner, across the street and behind cover, had a carbine with 30 round magazines, Platt wouldn't have did as much damage.

Blain
March 17, 2003, 05:20 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I think that a 12 gauge with slugs and buck is a serious force to be reckoned with! Esp when properlly employed.

Dean Speir
March 17, 2003, 10:28 PM
megatronrules asserts:They were always known to have long guns with them too. And this is based on what evidence or report?

AK103K opines: I think this shoot out totally dispells the show COPS and proves that if your determined and dont lay down, there is a good chance you can prevail. They will have you believe you cant win, but this, and the CA. bank robbery, amoung a few others, proves that it isnt quite so. I don't know how you can incorporate anything to do with the abortive North Hollywood Bank of America take-down into the FBI/Kendell firefight other than each involved a pair of well-armed bad guys. If Platt and Matix had had the ordnance and armor with which Matasereanu and Phillips deployed, they'd've killed all eight of the FBI agents and razed the entire neighborhood! Matasereanu and Phillips were a couple of clowns (albeit hard ones) whose entire training and practice appear to have been repeated viewings of Michael Mann's Heat! Hell, Phillips killed himself rather than stay in the fight!

And Ian states: …the FBI agents, who were trying to take down a pair of bank robbers known to be well-armed, military-trained, and ruthless). Law Enforcement had no such knowledge of either Michael Platt and William Matix, much less their military backgrounds or even an inkling of their identities. Nor can you claim with any confidence that Platt had not "trained for one-handed and weak-handed shooting." Both men were not only well-trained by the military, but well-practiced on their own, witness their regular shooting trips (with murderous intent on at least two separate occasions) onto the Tamiami Trail. Ten days before they lived it out with the FBI, they'd purchased 5,000 rounds of ammo, no trace of which was ever found, the suggestion being that they shot it up in the 'Glades.Why 4 of the 9 FBI agents would choose to go into a felony car stop with revolvers as primary weapons (a 2½" 5-shot S&W, in McNeill's case) is beyond me. There were but eight actually on the Kendell scene that Friday, and they went with what was then issued them… S&W revolvers. Only Grogan, Risner and Dove were SWAT-qualified and permitted to deploy with the S&W Models 459.Platt emptied all his Mini-14 mags and had to switch to Matix' .357. I've never seen this documented, #1, and, #2, he also fired his own handgun as well as that of Matix, but produced no wounds with any of those six revolver shots. The only rifle in the fight was Platt's Mini-14, and with it he was responsible for 6 of the 8 FBI casualties. There were seven FBI casualties, all of which were inflicted by Platt with his Mini-14!

Hkmp5sd observes None of the FBI agents was wearing a rifle rated vest. How 'bout any sort of vests! :)

Seriously, as has been noted here, McNeill kinda threw his on, almost as an afterthought, but I'm wondering just what was available in the way of a "rifle-rated vest" back then. The ceramic inserts were available in certain applications, but rarely used, as I recall. The 5 FBI cars involved contained a total of 12 shotguns. Don't know where you got this tidbit from, but it is not supported by any documentation I've ever seen, and specifically refuted by the FBI's own inventory sheet (http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting.htm).…there were 5 other FBI cars involved in the rolling stakeout that did not arrive at the scene until the shooting was over. Two of those cars contained MP5's.Ye Gawds, man! Where ever are you getting this stuff!?! Of the vehicles which were unable to respond timely, there were an additional four 12 gauge Remington Models 870, a Heckler & Koch MP5-SD (Unit #88), and an M16 (Unit #83). [ibid]

Deadman thinks: …if Platt had been wearing a ballistic vest that 1st wound might not have been fatal. How so? The fatal wound from Dove's "one in a million shot" transected Platt's brachial artery before it penetrated his chest. Yes, Risner also hit Platt with a (Gawd!, I love "copspeak!") "non-survivable, potentially fatal" round to the chest, but it was that first 115-grain Silvertip which sealed his fate.

JohnKSa sez: They were out looking for Matix and Platt. They knew M&Ps M.O. and what type of weapons they preferred. Actually, they were out looking for two unknown bank robbers with a weapons' profile somewhat at variance with what Matix and Platt brought with them that day, being two six-inch magnum revolvers (one S&W, one Dan Wesson), a folding-stocked S&W Model 3000 12 gauge pump shotgun and a folding Ruger Mini-14.

Hey!, we're all looking at this almost 17 years later, 20/20 hindsight and all that, and it's something I've made a close study of since November 1987. I've also authored several monographs about the event (see Miami: 11 April 1986 (http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/11april86.html)) and various aspects of the aftermath (the FBI's weapons and ammunition selections, the enormous impact the September 1987 Wound Ballistics Seminar at Quantico had on the entire ammunition industry, etc.)

The only thing I'm left with is a wacking great admiration for the courage of SA Eddie Mireles, a grudging respect for the mindset and skill of Michael Platt, and a firm belief in one of ("Murphy's?") first dicta of battle: no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

Ian
March 17, 2003, 10:45 PM
Platt & Matix were known to be armed and ruthless based simply on their bank robberies and the shooting of Mr. Colazzo (from whom they stole their car). If they were not thought to be armed and dangerous, why did the FBI have SWAT teams assigned to the case?

Their lack of weak-hand training is implied by Platt's repeated misses at very close range when using his weak hand.

The info I have is that Agent Arrantia was wounded by Matix (with a shotgun), not Platt.

I was mistaken when I said there were 9 agents. You're right; there were 8.

The fact that revolvers were the standard issue weapon for the FBI agents carrying them may explain their use, but it does not justify it.

goon
March 17, 2003, 11:01 PM
You know, it is tragic to think that perhaps a single AR-15, or even an old 30-30 could have made a difference.

On a different note, I have always wondered why the Branch Davidians, or Randy Weaver, or that group in Montana a few years ago didn't fight it out. It is true that in the end, they would have lost, but why not fight?
Right or wrong, I think that things went much smoother for the Feds than they could have.
Especially with the Davidians- The accounts say that they were well armed. They most likely could have made the Feds pay for their victory.
So, why not?
Perhaps just something about human nature that makes you hesitate?
Sorry for the philosophy. I am not trying to turn this political, just yammering.

Hkmp5sd
March 17, 2003, 11:05 PM
Dean Speir,

They were always known to have long guns with them too.

And this is based on what evidence or report?

Agent Gordon McNeil "has stated flatly that they knew exactly what they were up against: heavily armed professional criminals who liked to kill with high powered weapons."

…the FBI agents, who were trying to take down a pair of bank robbers known to be well-armed, military-trained, and ruthless).

Law Enforcement had no such knowledge of either Michael Platt and William Matix, much less their military backgrounds or even an inkling of their identities.

"McNeil and his team knew that the perpertrators were two white males in their mid-thirties with an affinity for professional-class weapons."

"They were known to use military tactics and were suspected to be members of white supremacist cults."

The 5 FBI cars involved contained a total of 12 shotguns.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't know where you got this tidbit from, but it is not supported by any documentation I've ever seen, and specifically refuted by the FBI's own inventory sheet.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
…there were 5 other FBI cars involved in the rolling stakeout that did not arrive at the scene until the shooting was over. Two of those cars contained MP5's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ye Gawds, man! Where ever are you getting this stuff!?! Of the vehicles which were unable to respond timely, there were an additional four 12 gauge Remington Models 870, a Heckler & Koch MP5-SD (Unit #88), and an M16 (Unit #83).


FROM: Four Minute Massacre: The FBI Miami Shootout by Massad Ayoob. (American Handgunner Magazine, January/February 1989)


Guess what....I have several reports on the shootout from assorted sources and there in inaccuracies between them. An example is some of the official statements made by McNeil are incorrectly quoted in the FBI's own report.

The report you linked to at The Gun Zone is an abridged version and also includes inaccuracies. This version was written 10 years after the fact. Ayoob was in Miami 3 weeks after the shootout and interviewed sources including Metro Dade Police, FBI and the Medical Examiner that were conducting the investigation.

Sean Smith
March 17, 2003, 11:07 PM
Combat is unpredictable. Nobody is always right when it comes to a gunfight. Not Delta Force, not SEALS, not the SAS, not anybody. Sure, the FBI guys made some amateur hour goof-ups (blind due to lost glasses? Shotguns where you can't get them once the fight starts?). And they made the always-unforgivable tactical error of underestimating your enemy.

Having said that, it has to be borne in mind that they didn't have the "perfect" ex post facto view of the situation. Well, based on the posts here, "perfect" is pretty relative. :rolleyes: They just knew about where the bad guys were, so they went after them. You know, protect the public so the bad people don't get a chance to murder more law-abiding citizens.

No doubt, there are lessons to be learned, but the whole "eff the eff bee aye" subtext of some people's posts seems misplaced here. If you are going to, in the fullness of time and comfort of your couch, talk about how stupid the FBI agents were, you should at least recognize their bravery as well. Because they KNEW they were going into a dangerous situation, and they did it anyway. You know, doing their duty and all that. They paid a price - no doubt a higher price than they should have - so the general public wouldn't have to. And that should count for something.

JohnKSa
March 17, 2003, 11:12 PM
Actually, they were out looking for two unknown bank robbers with a weapons' profile somewhat at variance with what Matix and Platt brought with them that day, being two six-inch magnum revolvers (one S&W, one Dan Wesson), a folding-stocked S&W Model 3000 12 gauge pump shotgun and a folding Ruger Mini-14.
I wasn't implying that they knew M&P by name, but they certainly knew them by MO. Well enough, in fact, to be able to correctly predict where they might be. That's how the whole confrontation occurred.

I can't quote a source on this, but unless I'm badly mistaken, M&P were known to use long guns at least some of the time.

As to the question about the choice of long guns. I'd go for a small, lite, hi-cap semi-auto rifle. I like shotguns plenty, but when you might have to shoot through car doors, windshields, etc., rifles get the nod in my opinion.

4thHorseman
March 17, 2003, 11:16 PM
I tend to agree with most of what has been said, but my twist is, Platt put up a tremedous effort. If he was a good guy, he would of received (or at least his realitives) numerous medals for heroism. But it was not to be , Platt was a BG.
Platt was just better armed and a more determined fighter. Platt was well trained as mentioned earlier.

Dean Speir
March 18, 2003, 01:33 AM
Platt & Matix were known to be armed and ruthless based simply on their bank robberies and the shooting of Mr. Colazzo (from whom they stole their car). If they were not thought to be armed and dangerous, why did the FBI have SWAT teams assigned to the case? They didn't. They had the C1 Squad rolling that morning, some of whom were "SWAT-trained/qualified."

Basically, McNeill grabbed all the available Field SAs and put them into a certain area that morning looking for a specific vehicle described to them by a ballsy eyewitness to a precious crime. The info I have is that Agent Arrantia {sic} was wounded by Matix (with a shotgun), not Platt. Your information is incorrect, Ian. And by your spelling of Gil Orrantia's name, I know just where you obtained your information. Matix fired one (1) round from his shotgun, and then was effectively out of the fight with one of McNeill's rounds which fractured his skull and contused his brain. That he was later able to pull himself together enough to find his way to the passenger's seat of the Grogan/Dove vehicle is another remarkable aspect of that day; the FBI is fortunate that he didn't have it together enough to actively get back into the fight. …I have always wondered why the Branch Davidians … didn't fight it out. O for the love of Peter G. Kokalis, Goon, where the hell were you on 28 February 1993?!? The Davidians did fight it out with the ATF cowboys, and shot the hell out of them! It was ATF who called the "crease-fire" 43 minutes into the engagement because they'd run out of ammunition.

Hkmp5sd persists: FROM: Four Minute Massacre: The FBI Miami Shootout by Massad Ayoob. (American Handgunner Magazine, January/February 1989)


Guess what....I have several reports on the shootout from assorted sources and there in inaccuracies between them. An example is some of the official statements made by McNeil {sic} are incorrectly quoted in the FBI's own report. Mas is an old friend of almost 17 years standing, and his AH report in 1989 was a pretty good one given what he/we knew then, but it rife with factual errors and is far from the definitive text; a much better one is Dr. Anderson's extraordinary Forensic Analysis, which is science, not speculation, and his investigation led Dr. Jay Barnhart, the Metro-Dade Medical Examiner who had been the associate who had signed off on the autopsies in 1986, to make some revisions to those reports almost ten years later. The report you linked to at The Gun Zone is an abridged version and also includes inaccuracies. This version was written 10 years after the fact. Ayoob was in Miami 3 weeks after the shootout and interviewed sources including Metro Dade Police, FBI and the Medical Examiner that were conducting the investigation. Based on your assertions here, I'm afraid you're not conversant enough with those events to make any such statement about "inaccuracies." You simply cannot take Mas' original AH report (the less said about the 1991 follow-up one the better!), plus some viewings of the NBC "In The Line of Fire" teleflick and ABC's FBI: The Untold Stories hosted by Pernell Roberts, and think you have some authoritative knowledge of what happened that day. Even the FBI's own "in-house" training film is inaccurate as it works overtime to put the best possible agency light on the subject. You gotta be careful of your sources… some people have even held up John Ross' fanciful deviant sex scene in Unintended Consequences as authentic, and one of the reasons that more SAs weren't at the firefight!

If you haven't yet obtained a copy of Dr. French Anderson's Forensic Analysis (it's one of the few things that Shawn Dodson and I have ever agreed upon), beg, borrow or abscond with one, and then try to track down the two-hour debriefing video (circa '87) featuring Sgt. David Rivers, head of the Metro-Dade PD crime scene investigation team. It has some of the best information on the whole event, from the previous robberies/shootings which led to that rolling stakeout on 10 April, to the different communication frequencies used by Metro-Dade and the FBI (who weren't able to radio one another directly), to the 911 audio tapes of eye-witnesses to the firefight, and finally, after-action statements from the surviving SAs at the time of the event, not after they'd been "massaged" by Bureau policy administrators.

Pilgrim
March 18, 2003, 01:46 AM
On a different note, I have always wondered why the Branch Davidians, or Randy Weaver, or that group in Montana a few years ago didn't fight it out. It is true that in the end, they would have lost, but why not fight?

If the Branch Davidians had launched a violent counter-attack after the BATF raid team ran out of ammunition, there would have been more than just four BATF funerals.

AK103K
March 18, 2003, 07:17 AM
I don't know how you can incorporate anything to do with the abortive North Hollywood Bank of America take-down into the FBI/Kendell firefight other than each involved a pair of well-armed bad guys. If Platt and Matix had had the ordnance and armor with which Matasereanu and Phillips deployed, they'd've killed all eight of the FBI agents and razed the entire neighborhood! Matasereanu and Phillips were a couple of clowns (albeit hard ones) whose entire training and practice appear to have been repeated viewings of Michael Mann's Heat! Hell, Phillips killed himself rather than stay in the fight!
Dean,
My point was, when police encounter people who are not impressed by their presence or supposed authority, and are willing, if not eager to bring the fight to them, it becomes a whole different world, especially for the police. The general population has been conditioned since childhood to "do as your told", especially when the police are involved. For the most part, I think the police also expect this, from all but a few. In this case they even had a good idea that who they were after could be a problem, and they STILL didnt have the proper weapons with them. You, and the police have a handgun with you because you always can.(unless you take it out during a chase and lay it on the seat) But, if your "expecting" ANY kind of trouble, wouldnt you bring along as much fire power you could? The other boys came to play and brought their toys. The FBI probably was thinking they'd get out in their fancy suits, flash their shiney badges, shout "FBI, your under arrest" and the world would stop, as its supposed to. The only problem here was, the other boys were'nt impressed.

Hkmp5sd
March 18, 2003, 12:23 PM
Dean Speir,

If you haven't yet obtained a copy of Dr. French Anderson's Forensic Analysis

Got it. Read it.

Based on your assertions here, I'm afraid you're not conversant enough with those events to make any such statement about "inaccuracies."

As in all things related to humans, there are inaccuracies when information comes from more than one source. For forensic information, I agree that Dr. Anderson's report is the best source. For information about what the agents knew and said at the time of the encounter, I believe the earlier reports over the later reports for anything that is NOT on actual audio tape at the time of the shooting. Stories change with each telling and as years pass, even the agents involved can slightly alter their story without knowing it.

This shooting is the most written about one in recent history and as time goes on, it will soon equal JFK in the number of different versions floating around. Since none of us are eyewitnesses, we must base our evaulation on what information is available.

In your opinion, you know what happened. In my opinion, I know what happened. And like JFK, NONE us will agree on everything!



BTW, since Ayoob is an old friend of yours, how about some free passes to LFI?

Dean Speir
March 18, 2003, 12:56 PM
For information about what the agents knew and said at the time of the encounter, I believe the earlier reports over the later reports for anything that is NOT on actual audio tape at the time of the shooting. As I have stated, the best information about that event comes from two sources: [list=1] David Rivers debriefing video tape (which preceeds Mas' first report by over a year, and does contain audio of both police communications during the low speed pursuit and 911-calls during the firefight.).
French Anderson's superior Forensic Analysis.[/list=1] My problem is that too many think that, because it has so much other excellent material in it, Ross' fictional account is authentic, and that the various TV dramatizations are even remotely accurate.BTW, since Ayoob is an old friend of yours, how about some free passes to LFI? Um, he's my friend, not necessarily yours, #1, and, #2, I finally took him up on his longtime offer in October 1994. It was "information-intensive," so I am most enthusiastic about LFI I.

Blain
March 18, 2003, 01:09 PM
If they had some good shotguns in hand, they would have put the badguys down......for good!

Matt G
March 18, 2003, 01:40 PM
Part of what cracks me up about the criticism of this event is that people 17 years later are critical of the FBI as if they believe that the FBI has no idea there were things to be learned from that tragic event. Although the Bureau did cast a certain amount of spin on the event, they were uncharacteristically forthcoming in their after-action briefings and training films, about the mistakes made and lessons learned. The FBI knows that there were tactics to be changed and trained for, since the Miami Incident. They may not have come up with the best final solution to it, but yer durn skippy, they've responded to it.

Biggest lesson learned, to me? At day's end, it's the cook rather than the kitchen. A determined agent with a small .38 and a lot of guts ended the fight.

Arm and train yourselves as best you can, but also you must equip yourselves with the proper mindset, if you would perservere.

AmericanFreeBird
March 18, 2003, 02:51 PM
The FBI knew that these guys had at least one semi-auto rifle with them and none of them thought to bring even so much as a 12ga along for backup?

They were absolutely lousy marksman, who taught them to shoot anyway?

They made some very stupid tactical errors (such as leaving a gun on a car seat vs. in a holster etc.) that cost them dearly.

They screwed up would be my assesment.:scrutiny:

Hkmp5sd
March 18, 2003, 03:16 PM
David Rivers debriefing video tape

Don't have access to that. Wanna send me a copy?

Double Maduro
March 18, 2003, 04:04 PM
AmericanFreeBird

You said;

"They were absolutely lousy marksman, who taught them to shoot anyway?"

Fact is that one of the bg's was fatally wounded in the first seconds of the fight and the other only got off one round from his 12g before being shot in the head. Not bad shooting, pumped full of adrenaline and being shot at.

No one else has mentioned it here, and I haven't been flamed in awhile - so here goes, what do you think the outcome would have been if the agents were using oh say a .45 instead of the .38's and 9's they were using?

Yes, I know that it doesn't matter the size of the round but placement, but with the same placement, would Platt have been able to continue and would Matix have recovered from his head wound in time to fire the 3 shots from his .357?

If the rounds the agents were using had been effective, they were acurate enough, there would have been no need for vests, shotguns or rifles, and a lot of good guys would not have been wounded or killed.

Just a thought.

And please, I AM NOT, trying to ignite the 9 vs .45 debate again.

M1911
March 18, 2003, 05:28 PM
The FBI knew that these guys had at least one semi-auto rifle with them and none of them thought to bring even so much as a 12ga along for backup?IIRC, at least 2 agents had 12 ga pumps. Agent Mirales (sp?) used one with one-hand, until he ran out of ammo and switched to his revolver. They also had two agents with M16s who, unfortunately, were on the toilet in a fast food joint a mile away when the takedown occurred.

Apple a Day
March 18, 2003, 06:01 PM
Hkmp5sd,
Thanks, I always wondered about how they all ended up that way... or started out that way depending on how you look at the incident. Much obliged. :D

goon
March 18, 2003, 08:42 PM
I know that the Feds lost four men in that standoff with the Davidians, but they should have lost more. They were attacking an entrenched force that was well armed. I have read that the Davidians had a couple of Barrett .50's that they could have easily opened up on the Feds while they were trying to get straightened around, but they didn't.
And they left them call a time out when they ran out of ammo.
Seems kinda backward for a gunfight, huh?:confused:

Double Naught Spy
March 18, 2003, 09:03 PM
To add to what Maduro said, suggesting the FBI were lousy marksmen was actually wrong. As I recall, one had several shooting awards and another one or two were regular competitors. The problem was, the type of marksmanship they were most familiar with involved standing still and shooting at a stationary target that did not shoot back.

Think about it. In the short distances that most of the shooting took place, I bet many of the participants could have shot and hit stationary targets a large amount of the time if they were just shooting from the hip for say anything inside 15 yards. A lot of this fight was not about marksmanship alone (although the first and fatal hit on Matix was). Unfortunately, there are minimally two dynamic aspects to a fit. They involve putting your hits on target while at the same time not allowing hit be delivered to/on your as a target. If you are exposing yourself to take an aimed shot, then that part of you can also receive an aimed shot as it will be unprotected by cover.

The FBI guys were not necessarily bad marksmen. What they were was very unprepared to be good marksmen in a surreal gunfight at close range where they were getting torn up and killed at a much greater rate than their well outnumbered opponents.

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