Spanish Mauser??????????


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DeputyVaughn
May 1, 2005, 07:34 PM
I'm seriously considering buying a Spanish .308 Mauser from AIM Surplus. Does anybody know these rifles; Quality, Accuracy, etc. I trust AIM but don't know much about these rifles. any advice appreciated.

Scott

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jobu07
May 1, 2005, 07:49 PM
Depends what you are going to use it for. A target rifle she's not. However, it is a light and handy rifle, quite accurate enough for plinking as well. And where else are you gonna get a .308 bolt action for that price? :)

P95Carry
May 1, 2005, 08:11 PM
Dep'ty - I have one - Spanish 1916 small ring. Nice rifle - well carbine really.


http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/cb_gun2/1916_s.jpg


However - and tho I have no sources to quote - some searches might turn this up for you. By all accounts this is not really up to .308 Win .... feedback I read after I got mine - 2 years ago at least IIRC - suggested that whilst it will handle .308 Win - over time the bolt might suffer and gradually result in increased head spacing - until dangerous. I wish I had the info I read to pass straight on.

IMO if you want a tough old rifle to handle .308 - then try to find an Ishapore Enfield. Not hyper accurarte in my experience but - tough!


http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/cb_gun2/ishy_s.jpg


I only play with my Spanish by loading cast bullet loads.

Don't take just my words - I'd hate to dissuade you unnecessarily but felt I should make mention. Hopefully there may be folks here who can confirm or squash what I took to be a worthwhile warning.

DeputyVaughn
May 1, 2005, 09:13 PM
If purchased I plan to sporterize and shoot surplus .308 ammo through it if it will take it. I'd love to find an aftermarket Monte Carlo stock and scout scope mount. Might be an interesting deer rifle also.

More comments appreciated.

Scott

P95Carry
May 1, 2005, 09:20 PM
surplus .308 ammo through it if it will take it. Scott - that is the main thing I think you should check out - not trying to be a pain - just concerned re safety angles. Just wish I had the info to hand - but will check to see if anything findable.

Even surplus could be excessive - I seem to recall mention of CETME pressures being regarded as safe but not full .308 Win type stuff.

P95Carry
May 1, 2005, 09:32 PM
Scott - I am trying to research this for you - purely because safety concerns matter to me. So far - have found this ...

http://www.cruffler.com/discus/messages/5/482.html?1077654609

I will add any other bits I find.

The MikeG's post top of this page

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=8275&page=2

Best I can do for now - but anyways - I'll shut up now but leave you with hopefully an urge to research this a bit - to play safe. :)

JohnKSa
May 1, 2005, 10:11 PM
Reid Coffield did an article in SGN on converting one of these to a .45ACP carbine. He said something to the effect that he did it because there was some question about the metallurgy of these guns and he didn't feel good about shooting much rifle ammunition through it. Bad paraphrase, but that's the general idea.

P95Carry
May 1, 2005, 10:19 PM
One thing I seem to remember too - the bolt is a two lug and not a three - and so some concerns there over ability to handle the .308 WIN as against cetme.

Jim K
May 1, 2005, 11:07 PM
I don't know which Spanish Mauser they are selling. One is based on the old 1893 action and really was not meant for pressures in the .308 range, or even the lower 7.62 NATO range. It was intended for the 7x57 and is basically a 45k psi gun. Even then Spanish rifles tend to be softer than, say, the Swedish Mausers, and not hold up as well.

The Spanish also made a copy of the Mauser 1898 These were originally in 7.92, and are better, though still softer than the German equivalent.

I don't think much of the .308 in the older gun; it simply was not made for even the 50k NATO spec pressures and will pretty quickly develop problems. The later gun is more suitable, but even so I would try to find something better than the Spanish rifles.

BTW, the same warning about shooting .308 commercial loads applies to the Indian 2 and 2A rifles as well. Even with NATO spec ammo, they were not intended for extensive shooting, being made for use by the paramilitary and police, not for the Indian Army.

Jim

rbernie
May 1, 2005, 11:09 PM
P95 - all Mausers are technically two lug; the small ring versions simply lack the non-load-bearing safety lug (quasi-third-lug) of the large ring Mausers. The small ring versions also lack the large-rings enhanced gas venting system in the bolt and the bolt shroud, which makes them more likely to dump hot gasses in the shooters face in the event of a case rupture. And, of course, the small ring versions simply have less steel around the chamber by virtue of their smaller receiver 'ring' diameter (e.g. the diameter of the front of the receiver where the barrel screws in).

The Spanish 1916 Mauser 308s are a conversion performed on the 1893 Mauser small-ring design. The '93s were originally designed to shoot 7x57 low-pressure (45000cup) rounds. They were not designed for high-pressure ammo (e.g. 308 @ 55000cup). Having said that, where it was made will make a difference in terms of its relative safety. For example, I would feel OK shooting a small ring 308 rework if it were a Berlin-manufactured receiver but I would probably pass on a rechambered Oviedo-made '93. This is based on solely the difference in the quality of the steel and heat treatment between those receivers made in Germany and those made elsewhere. Of course, virtually all of the small-ring Spanish Mausers rechambered in 308 were done on Oviedo-manufactured receivers.

Were this me - I'd pass. If you want a shooter chambered in 308, why sink your money into a 110+ year old rifle when you can get a used 308-chambered Savage for less than $250. And if you want a piece of history, then find one in its original chambering and have fun with that. To me, the Spanish reworks are neither fish nor fowl - not 'historical' enough for me, and not 'user-tactical' enough to justify their 308 chambering. If you want a 308 Mauser - find a Spanish FR8. It's a CETME barrel on a '98 pattern large-ring Mauser, and it'll have the strength and durability to do anything you need.

BTW - don't think that these old warhorses can't shoot just as they came from the factory. I've got a 1895 Chilean small-ring in 7x57 that will shoot several pet loads into 1MOA five-shot groups.

P95Carry
May 1, 2005, 11:20 PM
quasi-third-lug Thx for the correction rbernie - I was imprecise and ''approximating''.

Good to see your post - it fills some useful gaps.

I do not actually regret getting my 1916 - it was cheap as they get and yet - a very fun platform for ''playing'' with .308 cast bullet loads.... this is stuff making no more probably than 1900 with a gas check bullet. Time I did some more!!

I did think (having a great regard for Enfield action) that the 2a ''Ishy'' was probably better and safer with .308 WIN ... I have put some thru mine but not in huge numbers. Still - interesting specimens to have.

rbernie
May 2, 2005, 12:24 AM
Also remember that 7.62x51 NATO is actually lower pressure than commercial 308Win. The Spanish 1916's were actually rechambered to shoot the lower-pressure NATO stuff (before it was commericalized as the 308 Win and given a higher SAAMI pressure rating) and should do just fine with that.

DeputyVaughn
May 2, 2005, 01:08 AM
Thanks everyone for the opinions. I believe I'll wait for some other bolt gun in 308 for my purposes. This one doesn't sound up to the task. I've become more and more fond of .308 with my FAL and my Cetme. I want a bolt gun and eventually I want the Bushmaster .308(price prohibitive for now). I haven't seen the Savage for under $350 but maybe I'm not looking hard enough. I'll continue my search for now. It's not like I don't have something to shoot in the meantime.

Scott

cracked butt
May 2, 2005, 06:55 AM
The 1916s aren't made strong enough for .308, unless you handload for it and reduce the velocities to ~2500 fps range. The 1917 spanish and FR-8 rifles are supposed to be strong enough to handle the cartridge.

chevrofreak
May 2, 2005, 09:20 AM
I put 60 rounds of 7.62 surplus through mine in a 30 minute period. It got hot as hell but showed no signs of failure.

jobu07
May 2, 2005, 09:37 AM
I'm with ya chevrofreak. ;)

If and of you fellas are in question with your 1916 mauser, don't worry. Send it to me and i'll put it through extensive testing and if find it unsafe, i'll properly "dispose" of it for you! :p

thereisnospoon
May 2, 2005, 08:01 PM
This discussion has puzzled me forever, as I have encountered it on numerous boards at various times.

The Spanish Rifles are totally acceptable to shoot both Surplus 7.62 and handloads in the proper pressure range. The .308 has a higher pressure and should be used with extreme caution if at all, but otherwise, these are great handy rifle.

I have had three, two of which I am in the process of converting to "Scout" guns (I'll send pics if anyone is interested)

I also have one in 7mm Mauser which is a great shooter.

If you can find them as I did - for under $100.00 - they are a great deal for fun and hunting.

And as another poster pointed out, if yours scares you, send it to me and I'll send you $75.00 + shipping.

Spoon

greg531mi
May 2, 2005, 08:53 PM
These guns are overbuilt, that's why German Mausers shooting magnum calibers at 55,000 cups, when designed for the 8mm Mauser at 44,000 cups...
Don't you think when they changed calibers, they put proof loads through them at 70,000 to 80,000 cups?
Any good metallurgist will tell you that soft steel is more durable than hard steel, less likely to crack or grenade. That's why Springfields under 800,000, had bad heat treat, they were too hard....
The Third Lug does nothing, unless the two primary lugs fail, and that is suspect on what, if anything to save the shooter from harm....
If two lugs are so bad, why do most modern bolt actions only have two lugs????? And why doesn't Aim or other importers don't put warnings on these guns.... It's all unfounded rumor........

rbernie
May 2, 2005, 09:24 PM
While I probably push my 1895 7x57 well into the 50000+CUP arena with specific handloads, I never lose sight of the fact that I'm playing with 110 year old steel that's been thru an awful lot.

The fact the people will advise caution with the small-ring Spanish 308 Mausers doesn't mean that it's some vast consipracy to deny anyone the ability to shoot an inexpensive rifle. It means that shooting a ~100 year old rifle well beyond its design limits is pretty much the definition of pushing your luck. Chances are that your luck will hold, but when it doesn't..... :eek:

Infidel
May 2, 2005, 09:29 PM
I've heard and read both arguments about the Spanish 1916 Mausers for years.

Does anyone have any documented instances of a 1916 Spanish Mauser in .308 blowing up?

P95Carry
May 2, 2005, 11:34 PM
I wish to heck I had or could find - some of the stuff I researched a coupla years ago. I am prepared to accept a degree of rumor - sure - but also there is the ''no smoke without fire''. Those selling these rifles for sure would not want adverse publicity - OTOH I wonder would they want law suits!?

Just don't know - only thing I recall specifically was a mention by some relatively informed source, regarding the bolt's likelehood of over time not maintaining safe lock-up or allowing for a headspace increase.

Who knows and far be it for me to wish to spoil anyone's fun with a new toy (or proposed new toy). I just have a greater regard for safety issues than perhaps some can accept. No doumented kaboom I know of - but then if they have not been pushed too hard, maybe that will not happen.

Label me a safety freak - no prob's ! :)

Infidel
May 2, 2005, 11:40 PM
What, exactly, is wrong with being a "safety freak"? Notice that I don't have a Spanish Mauser, for exactly the reasons you have mentioned and that I have heard and read many times elsewhere. But even in discussions amongst crufflers, I haven't seen nor heard of an actual catastrophic failure.

rbernie
May 2, 2005, 11:57 PM
Nor have I. This seems to be one of those things that has been handed down over the generations. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have a kernel of truth to it. It just means that it's hard to find a common modern-day example. Sorta like polio - I have no doubt that it existed and still exists somewhere in the world, but I don't actually know of anyone who had/has it.

In the end, each of us makes our own choices. But everyone needs to read this (http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb/762r.html) and then decide how much they really wanna push things on rifles that are arguably a century old and made of steels that were far less 'pure' and controlled than todays metallurgy....

Infidel
May 3, 2005, 12:13 AM
Sorta like polio - I have no doubt that it existed and still exists somewhere in the world, but I don't actually know of anyone who had/has it.
Allow me to introduce myself. I was 7 years old, it was 1952, and I was lucky,-- no serious lasting effects.

Maybe I'm too chicken to trust my luck with rifles that others have said might be unsafe ... it (the luck) might be used up.

P95Carry
May 3, 2005, 12:15 AM
7 years old, it was 1952, Holy moly Infidel - you are as old as me .... :eek: :eek: :p :D

rbernie
May 3, 2005, 12:27 AM
I was lucky,-- no serious lasting effects.Very good to hear. Now I guess I can't say that I have no modern analogy (altho I'd just as soon not have wished that on anyone).

Infidel
May 3, 2005, 12:54 AM
Well, we haven't really met, but if you live somewhere along or near the route(s) from Texline to Tyler (mostly 287 + 82 or 380 to 69), then I might stop and buy you an adult beverage or whatever on one of my twice a year trips to visit family in Tyler. I was born there, lived there through high school.

Holy moly Infidel - you are as old as me ....
Really? Darn, it's hard to remember sometimes ....

P95Carry
May 3, 2005, 01:04 AM
Tyler eh - hmmm ... last trip down there, wife and I stayed at the Super 8 near a large red light intersection. Met a buddy and we drove not that far to an indoor range - threw some lead! Forget the details.

Since then - it is a place that has gained some notoriety, instance the court house deal.

Back on topic - anyone still interested in a 1916 - get one and go play with cast bullet loads - lotta safe fun. :)

thereisnospoon
May 3, 2005, 05:22 AM
Good points all...

I have not sen any published AND documented instances of failure eitherm, but have read all the rumor and hype. However. follow this link to see important data on the Spanish Rifles and 7.62 NATO round http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/fr8/index.asp


P95-Absolutely nothing wrong with being safe, especially when there are so many other rifles on the market, but the begining of this thread was about somene trying to find a cheap rifle and a .308 bolt under $150.00 is awesome IMHO.

When its all said and done, I think these companies wold not sell anthiing that unsafe in this gun-hating, litigious society we find ourselves living in. Sometimes I think I was born one 100 years too late, then I realize I would have missed out on all the cool "toys" we have now.

Spoon

rbernie
May 3, 2005, 08:54 AM
When its all said and done, I think these companies wold not sell anthiing that unsafe in this gun-hating, litigious society we find ourselves living in. Have you never seen the results of Century's angry beavers? :eek:

Most of the importers are not qualified gunsmiths. Those that have gunsmiths on hand seem to work them in assembly-line fashion such that any given weapon gets but the most cursory of examinations - grading the weapon on basic function and finish. These folks are NOT doing things like scoping the barrel and looking for the microscopic cracks that portend disaster for the user if the user gets frisky with pressures.

To expect that the weapon has been fully vetted is giving far too much credit to most importers. They're playing the odds and moving iron, is all.

jobu07
May 3, 2005, 09:09 AM
born one 100 years too late, then I realize I would have missed out on all the cool "toys" we have now.

Can't miss what ya didn't know spoon ;)

armoredman
May 3, 2005, 11:38 AM
I have a copy of the Guns and Ammo article where they tested the 1916 Spanish Civil Guardia rifle. File is too big to attach, PM for a copy.

DeputyVaughn
May 10, 2005, 09:52 AM
After reading ARMOREDMAN'S article and others on the internet I've decided to give the Spanish Mauser a try. Unfortunately AIM is now out of stock. Does anyone know where this rifle may be found.
Guess I overthought myself on this one.

Scott

armoredman
May 10, 2005, 11:26 AM
http://samcoglobal.com/rifles.html#gcm Get me one, too, would ya?

thereisnospoon
May 10, 2005, 12:33 PM
Deputy Vaughn


PM sent regarding Spanish Mausers for sale, two in 7.62X51 and one in 7mm.

Glad to hear your buyin' :D


Spoon

madmike
July 1, 2007, 01:01 PM
Damn. I hate to resurrect an old thread again (no I don't), but I've got one in 7.62 and would love to have one in 7mm. Any around that anyone knows of?

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