Paypal Ban on buying guns and Hi-Cap mags


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kikilee
March 15, 2003, 10:08 PM
In case you haven't heard, as of the 13th of this month paypal will no longer allow you to use their service to purchase guns or hi-cap mags.

EDIT: For those who like to see it straight from the horses mouth:
http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett...cgi?read=102737

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Ian
March 15, 2003, 10:10 PM
Good thing I only use PayPal to purchase ... machine tools and, uh, scrap metal. Yep.

edit: Here's the full link: http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside&ed=firearms

In addition, you may not use PayPal to sell or advertise kits (that can be used to create a firearm) or illegal firearm components such as silencers, converters (which converts a firearm to automatic capability), and short barrels. Golly, I can't use PayPal to buy gun "converters"? But-but- I'd just set up a buy on one that drops right into my revolvers, and it worked with Mauser rifles, too!

Yeesh...where did they learn about guns, anyway?

Wildalaska
March 15, 2003, 11:33 PM
Same as ebay policy, so what? They only say you cant "sell" using their services. For Gunbroker, just use a different service.

cheygriz
March 16, 2003, 12:07 AM
Just cancelled my account with paypal!

pahrumpcaveman
March 16, 2003, 12:22 AM
I think ill cancel mine too . If they are going to take that kind of stance , piss on em .:mad:

pahrumpcaveman
March 16, 2003, 12:50 AM
Well I canceled it . So who do we use to buy stuff from Gun Broker now ?

NotQuiteSane
March 16, 2003, 02:06 AM
E-Gold? Dunno much about them though

NQS

tyme
March 16, 2003, 04:44 AM
Same as ebay policy, so what? They only say you cant "sell" using their services. For Gunbroker, just use a different service.What's that supposed to mean? I wasn't aware that I could sell a firearm-related article to someone who wants to pay via paypal without accepting payment via paypal. :)

I'm sending them a flame about how "high capacity magazines" don't exist, and how the "illegal firearms components" they list aren't always illegal.

Are dummy grenades deactivated in the way they require (permanently filled with non-explosive and not readily convertable), or are they just empty?

What maroons.

Rovert
March 16, 2003, 09:57 AM
Guys, just for clarification, two points:

1) Ebay owns PayPal, hence it makes sense that their policy is the same.

2) Loophole Alert:
You may not use PayPal to sell any firearm manufactured after 1898.
I'm not SELLING using PAYPAL. I'm selling using GunBroker, AuctionArms, Gunsamerica.... or whatever. I'm only using PayPal to receive or send funds.

2) Just because that's their policy doesn't mean that if you can't still use their service. When sending or receiving payments, just be sure to not list the item as firearms related. List it instead as Ian suggests - machine parts, mechanical parts, bicycle parts, hardware... whatever.

Your thoughts?

kikilee
March 16, 2003, 10:12 AM
I agree with Rovert.............Buy machine parts. Its not like you are breaking any LAWS just paypal's RULES.
However there are a bunch of FFL dealers out there who use Paypal as their means of accepting credit cards and this is going to hurt them


When a strong man, fully armed, guards his house, his possessions are safe.............LUKE: 11:21 NIV

pahrumpcaveman
March 16, 2003, 10:36 AM
Well you could certainly get away with using the loop hole as you suggest . My question is why support them if they are going to take the anti stance ? If they would take a neutral stance that would be ok by me but I will not help ANYONE who take's up the position with the anti gun folks . It sucks because I have used them allot to buy and sell stuff on gun broker but their must be some other company to do business with . Surely they are not the only game in town are they ?

SteveA
March 16, 2003, 01:19 PM
They're not prohibiting the transfer of funds for any type of items. What they're doing is stating the policy of what may and may not be sold on PayPal Shops. Has noting at all to do with transfering funds. Ebay does not allow firearms sales - PayPal is now an Ebay company.

You can still buy "gun parts" using PayPal. The restriction is the seller won't be allow ti list his "gun parts" on a PayPal Shop.

Go here: PayPal Shops (http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_shop-ext) This is where the restriction is.

I don't like the restriction either but I'll continue to use PaPal where it makes sense, just like I still crusie Ebay now and then when I'm looking for something I can't find at a reasonable price elsewhere.

DDGator
March 16, 2003, 01:39 PM
Does anyone know why the restriction is really being put in place?

I am not sure we can jump to the conclusion that they are anti...

I have heard -- and again this is just rumor stuff too -- that these restrictions are in place to get BATF and others off their backs -- to insure they don't have any liability as a knowing intermediatory for illegal sales. The problem becomes that they can't distinguish what is legal and what is not very easily -- so they cast the rule very broadly to cover their butts.

It is possible that this is a decision made of business necessity and not a political statement. After all -- if it was political, why would they ban sales of all firearm related items -- which they clearly did not do.

I have sold normal cap mags on eBay since the policy was put in place -- you just do so with a wink and a nod and everybody is happy.

The problem is that PayPal is a very good service. Who else offers all that they do -- including interest bearing accounts, free credit card/ATM access, virtual debit cards, etc.?

CZ-75
March 16, 2003, 04:18 PM
If boycotting PayPal means that fewer guns will be sold, aren't we playing into the hands of the Antis?

I will, like those who sell "10-round pre-ban" mags on eBay, continue to flount their stupid rules to my benefit.

What is really needed is competition to both eBay and PayPal.

Zundfolge
March 16, 2003, 04:30 PM
I refuse to do business with any company that publicly states that people with my particular hobby are evil.

EBay/Paypal don't allow the sale of firearms through their systems because they believe firearms are evil. At some level I would expect people who hold such views would be active in revoking our right to keep and bear arms (if nothing else by the people they vote for).

F- em ... let the free market speak ... there are alternatives:

http://paypalsucks.com/options.shtml

DDGator
March 16, 2003, 04:39 PM
What?

Seriously, Zund, educate me.

Where does eBay and PayPal say that firearms are evil? If they are so evil, why do they permit the sale of post ban mags, holsters, scopes, sights, slings, etc.?

I haven't seen anything that is inconsistent with them trying to get the govt. off their backs.

If I am wrong -- then lets get it out in the open and a boycott may be appropriate.

On the other hand -- if I am right, then the next best alternative to PayPal may find themselves as the next government target. Hard to blame eBay or PayPal if they are just reacting to the pressure. In that case, the gripe is with the government regulators, not the service providers.

Zundfolge
March 16, 2003, 05:04 PM
Fair enough DDGator.

here's a quote from Kevin Pursglove, eBay's senior director of communications when asked about eBay's anti gun rules

"You can still buy guns at other online sites. This was a decision that the management of eBay made about the kind of company they wanted to be: a positive, friendly, safe and enthusiastic trading environment."


Apparently us gun owners are negative, unfriendly and dangerous.

Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive, but that sounds like more anti gun owner bigotry to me.

DDGator
March 16, 2003, 05:08 PM
Thanks Zund, that is the kind of stuff I wanted to hear-- well, I didn't want to hear it -- but I am glad to know.

I agree -- even if they were feeling some pressure from the feds and didn't want to say it directly -- the statement they made is not what they should have said. That does sound political and offensive to me.

pahrumpcaveman
March 16, 2003, 05:58 PM
Well I'm not so sure I'm comfortable with any of the others listed on that link so I guess Ill be sending check's and that's fine by me . As I see it Pay Pal and E-Bay have a definite view on firearms and I will no longer do business with them . If we don't stand together against these companies who inject their political views into their business practices we are not helping our cause any . If they want my business they had at least stay neutral.

Spark
March 16, 2003, 06:44 PM
Why any of you continue to support a company like that is amazing. This isn't breaking news - these stories have been going around for years, in addition to all of the other hijinks and questionable actions Paypal has taken against it's suckers, I mean, customers.

Guys, it's *your* money. Why aren't you using a service that supports you?

TarpleyG
March 16, 2003, 07:16 PM
Yeah, I think this only pertains to PayPal shops. I don't see how they could enforce who you can send and receive money from. It's just like writing a check to someone. BofA cannot tell me that I cannot write a check to buy a gun.

GT

lazarus
March 16, 2003, 07:55 PM
Well, here is my E-Mail to PAYPAL:

Just a courteous message to apprise you that I and a large contingent of friends, associates and members of my various web sites will immediately cease & desist use of PAYPAL for various and assundried purchases as a result of your recent edict which prohibits the use of PAYPAL for purchases related to the legal exchange or purchase of firearm-related products including, but not limited to: current legal arms, parts and ammunition and other firearm-related accessories. I will endeavor to spread the word amongst enthusiasts, hunters, sport shooters, CCW owners, fishermen, sportsmen and any other groups with a concern in these areas. You have taken a business decision as well as a moral one. You must now live with it.

Kind Regards, XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Cosmoline
March 16, 2003, 08:51 PM
I stopped using them when they started sucking money out of my bank account without notifying me! I learned that PayPal isn't limited to the funds you deposit in it. It will freely attack any bank account you've given it access to.

carnaby
August 24, 2005, 07:10 PM
btt, boycott paypal.

K-Romulus
August 24, 2005, 08:10 PM
P226 + 2x12-rd mags

and

4x30-rd AR mags,

bought in 2005 . . . :D

scout26
August 24, 2005, 08:14 PM
Money orders are $0.65 at my local grocery store and stamps are $.37 each.

hotpig
August 24, 2005, 08:38 PM
I got this about one month ago. They would not release my funds until I followed their directions to a T. I have my own credit card processing service. So I can take payments. It cost a little more than Paypal does.

Dear mike ******,

We appreciate the fact that you chose PayPal to send and receive payments
for your transactions.

However, your account has been limited for violating PayPal's Acceptable
Use Policy regarding Firearms, Weapons, and Knives. The Policy prohibits
the use of PayPal to send or receive payments for any firearm, in addition
to certain firearm parts and accessories, ammunition, destructive devices,
militaria and ordnance, weapons, and knives. The complete Acceptable Use
Policy addressing Firearms, Weapons, and Knives can be found at the
following URL:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside&ed=weapons

To appeal the limitation on your account, you will need to:

1. Remove PayPal as a payment option, as well as all references to PayPal,
including the PayPal logo and/or shopping cart, from your website(s), For
example http://gunbroker.com/Auction/SellerAuctions.asp?User=*****; and

2. Submit the online Acceptable Use Policy affidavit.

This is not intended to be an all-inclusive review or list of your Internet
sites in violation. Furthermore, the violations of the Policy described
above are not intended to be an all-inclusive list. It is the
responsibility of the user to ensure that all transactions comply with the
Acceptable Use Policy.

For more information about the status of your account and for instructions
on how to restore full use of your account, please login to your PayPal
account. We encourage you to log in and restore full access as soon as
possible. Should access to your account remain limited for an extended
period of time, it may result in account closure.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter. If you have any
questions, please contact the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy Department at
aup@paypal.com.

Sincerely,
PayPal Acceptable Use Policy Department
PayPal, an eBay Company

KriegHund
August 24, 2005, 08:54 PM
The links provided led me to a 404 and a blank page respectivle.

Aside from that, i dont give a darn what paypal or ebay does. They are private businesses and can choose to regulate their business as they please.

hotpig
August 24, 2005, 08:56 PM
Remember if you choose to use Paypal to buy anything that they self imposed a ban on you could have problems. You will have no buyer or seller protection under their rules. Use money from your linked credit card and not from your Paypal account or linked bank account. If you have problems with a buyer or a seller atleast your credit card company will back you. Paypal will not since you were not supposed buy guns,ammo, adult material or what ever else they banned.

KriegHund
This link works. I altered the link to my gunbroker auctions so that it would not work. I will go ahead and put it up also.

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside&ed=weapons

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/SellerAuctions.asp?User=53428

MudPuppy
August 24, 2005, 09:30 PM
You may not use PayPal to sell religous material of any kind.

See how stupid rules sound when you replace them with one of the other protected ammendments.

I say don't give 'em your money. Or they'll use it to outlaw guns...well, guns made after 1898.

armedandsafe
August 24, 2005, 10:34 PM
Do not ever, EVER click on a link in an email from ebay or paypal. Most of them ar not actually from ebay or paypal. Even if all you get is a blank page, a phishing email will harvest info from your connection. Always go directly to ebay or paypal by typing in the address or using a favorites bookmark, then work your way to where you need to be.

Pops

gezzer
August 25, 2005, 12:19 AM
The 13th of this month, The kicked me off 2 months ago for selling parts and empty brass. :cuss:

Legionnaire
August 25, 2005, 09:36 AM
Business on Gunbroker.com expanded dramatically when ebay disallowed the sale of firearms. Looks like another opportunity for the folks at Gunbroker to develop a PayPal-like business. They could start specifically catering to Gunbroker clients, Auctionarms, Gunsamerica, etc., and grow the business explicitly because there are no restrictions on what can be bought or sold.

Anybody here want to start a new business?

PUMC_TomG
August 25, 2005, 09:45 AM
and included this comment:

"I will be discontinuing my membership with Paypal due to
the policies of the company in regards to shooting sports
and firearms related purchases. Along with myself,
several friends will also be leaving the service and will
continue to do business using our financial institutions'
cashiers checks or US Postal Service money orders for
internet purchases requiring safe payment..

To quote Kevin Pursglove, the senior director of
communications for eBay, "You can still buy guns at other
online sites. This was a decision that the management of
eBay made about the kind of company they wanted to be:
a positive, friendly, safe and enthusiastic trading
environment."

This seems to imply that individuals involved with
shooting sports and hunting are somehow "negative,
unfriendly, unsafe, etc."

Every business has its right to do business as it sees fit.
However, alienating a large customer base due to an
inaccurate stereotype hardly seems wise, for customers
make choices too."

SouthpawShootr
August 25, 2005, 01:23 PM
Don't you just love these Lazarus threads?

I haven't used my PayPal account for quite some time. Don't intend to start again anytime soon.

DelayedReaction
August 25, 2005, 01:57 PM
Once the last of my Ebay auctions is completed, I will be removing Paypal as well. It's a shame that a company with a useful service has made this decision, but I'm not going to support any organization that opposes my rights.

deputy tom
August 25, 2005, 02:34 PM
I cancelled my pay-pal account a few years ago due to their attitude.tom. :mad:

Rinspeed
August 25, 2005, 02:49 PM
I agree with Rovert.............Buy machine parts. Its not like you are breaking any LAWS just paypal's RULES.


To hell with them. As long as I'm not breaking any laws they no reason what so ever to know what I'm using their service for.

KriegHund
August 25, 2005, 09:07 PM
KriegHund
This link works. I altered the link to my gunbroker auctions so that it would not work. I will go ahead and put it up also.

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/websc...side&ed=weapons

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Se....asp?User=53428

Many thanks.

Standing Wolf
August 25, 2005, 09:46 PM
I don't ever do business with anti-Second Amendment bigots.

John G
August 25, 2005, 09:54 PM
Account closed.

M-Rex
August 25, 2005, 11:47 PM
Here, here, folks.

I just closed my PayPal account a couple days ago. Looks like a trend. :D

CRAYZ CANES LLC
August 26, 2005, 12:05 AM
Paypal sucks. Enough said.

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