Airsoft???


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Beav
March 15, 2003, 11:59 PM
While cruising the internet for gun related stuff I keep running into Airsoft stuff?

So what's the low down on Airsoft?

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Dave R
March 16, 2003, 12:09 AM
Pretty wide range of products, shooting 6mm plastic "BBs".

My kids have a couple of the battery-operated full-auto toy guns. Boy, are they fun. More accurate than I would have thought. I can knock over a tin can at 20 ft. every time. Or a whole row of 'em pretty quick. :D

A lot of other foks seem to enjoy their full-size spring operated guns.

Graystar
March 16, 2003, 12:37 AM
They're great. I got a couple of Glock 33s for my girlfriend and myself. You can get 6mm paint pellets! Lots of fun.

They sell tons of them on eBay.

Tamara
March 16, 2003, 12:41 AM
For those guns that the federales won't trust you with, airsoft can ease the jones.

I have an FN P90, an HK MP5K-PDW and a Beretta 93R of the airsoft persuasion. The first two are Marui electrics, and are fantastic; the Beretta is a no-name gas gun and it sucks.

M2HMGHB
March 16, 2003, 01:36 AM
Unfortunately they're illegal in the PRNJ, otherwise I'd have tons of them.

SteelyDan
March 16, 2003, 01:49 AM
The whole Airsoft phenemenon is something I've never understood, but they seem to have a large and loyal following so there's gotta be something good there. I'll probably pass, just because if I got one I'd probably really like it, and right now I'm not looking for more things to start spending money on.

Zundfolge
March 16, 2003, 02:18 AM
apparently outside the US they use Airsoft guns the way we use paintball guns here (actually there are airsoft games in the US, but not on the same scale as places like Japan).


I like the realism of Airsoft (although I've never played it) but I do like that with paintball there is no question weather or not you're hit.

The big disadvantage of airsoft seems to me to be the argument we used to get into as children when playing with cap guns; "I got you" ... " no you didn't, you missed" :)

pwolfman
March 16, 2003, 03:27 AM
I have one of the remote control tanks that shoots the 6mm BBs, got it from Japan. Been thinking about getting the paint ball BBs and reigning havoc on the cars in the parking lot as I do drive bys...

:D

Tamara
March 16, 2003, 07:00 AM
Unfortunately they're illegal in the PRNJ, otherwise I'd have tons of them.

You have got to be kidding me! They are toys; they shoot plastic pellets.

That is just nuts. :uhoh:

gun-fucious
March 16, 2003, 08:27 AM
yes, but the exactly replicates a real gun
so the sheeple assume someone will use it to mug someone and then point it at the police.

Darwin rules

have you seen the Airsoft meets paintball guns?

how about a 68 caliber SAW?
http://www.rustyspaintballgear.com/catalog/details.asp?ID_Wep=37
one of the problems with these is the difficult of wearing a mask while shooting a conventional rifle stock

WhoKnowsWho
March 16, 2003, 09:04 AM
I have plenty of Airsoft from before I turned 21. And I have an electric MP5 since I doubt I will ever get a real one... :(

Real fun, but I don't break them out that often anymore, might scare my roommate since I have the real stuff around too. :)

twoblink
March 16, 2003, 09:41 AM
Here in Taiwan, I can only play with airsofts :( But they are pretty fun, and since there's no recoil, my shooting has improved quite a bit, no flinching now.

There are new rules governing airsofts here, as the replicas were TOO accurate, just a change in the barrel will allow for a real bullet to fire.

Fun things, and you can shoot it in the house, no problem. I got one of those "sticky" target, that you can shoot and bb's will stick, and then drop. Very fun.

jsalcedo
March 16, 2003, 05:57 PM
I was thinking about getting an airsoft MK23 SOCOM
but the thing lists for $117.50

With that kind of cash I could get a
C&R or a ton of reloading components

bad_dad_brad
March 16, 2003, 07:18 PM
Airsofts are a ton of fun. I have a cheap SW99 lookalike. But they do look real so keep that in mind.

I don't actually shoot the cat with one, but it is a hoot watching him try to figure out what that noise was nearby!

DrDremel
March 16, 2003, 07:52 PM
"Here in Taiwan, I can only play with airsofts But they are pretty fun, and since there's no recoil, my shooting has improved quite a bit, no flinching now."

Flinching? from a BB gun? I thought I heard of everything. I thought they were the guns you bought your kid when you took them to the gun show until I saw the prices. I don't understand why anybody that can own a real firearm would want one.

Stevie-Ray
March 16, 2003, 08:31 PM
I have an Air-Soft Beretta 92. Actually pretty heavy and amazingly accurate at short distances. Bought it for stray cats on my deck. Tried it out on a bird that was using my truck for target practice. Lined up on him about 20 feet up or so, and pop. Feathers flew and so did the bird. My truck stayed pristine for several days. I should put it to use more often. Maybe I can keep birds out of that tree.:D

TheLastBoyScout
March 16, 2003, 10:06 PM
Dr. Dremel, I think he's saying that because he's only shooting BB guns, he's lost any flinches he picked up from real guns.

twoblink
March 16, 2003, 10:30 PM
DrDremel,

I meant I use to flinch with my .40SW, but after shooting on airsofts for a while, I have gotten rid of that bad habit.

Kevlarman
March 17, 2003, 01:00 AM
For one thing, with airsoft, you can have shoot outs with your friends without fear of going to prison... or the morgue. Be sure to wear safety goggles though!

Schuey2002
March 17, 2003, 01:14 AM
I don't understand why anybody that can own a real firearm would want one.
DrDremel, do you know of an easier way to own a full auto version of this?? If you do, I'd like to know. ;)
http://www.gunsmagazine.com/0203Ftr/photo6.jpg

Aikibiker
March 17, 2003, 01:25 AM
Twoblink,

How can an airsoft be converted to use real ammo? Do they have a firing pin? How safe is that? seems like a zip gun would be safer.

Not that I have any thoughts at all about doing anything so dumb I can buy real guns.

However the idea of going out and playing war with my friends like when we were little kids sounds pretty fun. Anyone have a link to someone selling those electric full auto versions?

Schuey2002
March 17, 2003, 02:01 AM
Try this link. It lists retailers that sell these guns.

http://www.airsoftretreat.com/forums/default.asp

Aikibiker
March 17, 2003, 02:11 AM
Thanks Schuey

Seems like there is a sizeable airsoft community out there.

Kevlarman
March 17, 2003, 03:04 AM
Airsoftplayers.com is probably the most comprehensive message board out there. And if you're into exotic airsofts, http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/main/main.htm has lots of nice pics and reviews. Anyone fancy an airsoft M1 or K98? :D

cratz2
March 17, 2003, 04:13 AM
Yeah, I guess in a lot of countries where firearms or at least handguns aren't allowed, folks practice with the more realistic Air Soft guns then compete in the Philippines or South Africa with the real things.

I have one that is a Beretta 'Heavy' model from UHC. It was only about $25 on eBay and is a pretty fun way to chew up coda cans.

Wheels 'n' Guns
March 17, 2003, 04:36 AM
Airsoft "play guns" are a great invention. I have several, includes Springfield mod 1911, Walther P99, S&W 6906, etc. Originally I got 'em while travelling outside Australia for Son when he was young to teach him safety and technique and he has now moved on the "proper" shooting. Even now, when some of his mates come around for a bit of a "chill out" they love to get out the airsofts and compete on coke cans at 15 metres. Even have luminescent balls for black out comps!! (Tracers!)
Some of us are interersted in starting up an Australian Comp, which would be internationally accepted. Any ideas? Perhaps, "Federation of International Airsoft Academies" , or similar.
REASON: Currently such Airsoft Toy Guns are TOTALLY PROHIBITED in Australia, as the Government claims they have no real competition value and can be used to hold up Banks, as they are too realistic. Help please, to overthrow our oppressive regime.

twoblink
March 17, 2003, 09:40 AM
Aikibiker,

There are two major types of airsofts; the spring loaded ones, and the compressed air ones.

The spring based ones can't be converted; but the air ones can.

There's a hammer etc.. that drops on the bullet (bb in this case) everything internally is almost like the real thing, except the firing pin hits a bb instead of a bullet. Even the barrel is the actual barrel (at least here in taiwan) with a slotted insert to fit the BB.

So.. to convert it to a real gun:

remove the BB tube, now the barrel is actually the correct caliber (they do this so when you look at a pic, the bore is the correct size). There are no riflings on the barrels though.

The magazines are the actual magazines, with some internal modifications, and so if you cut your own spring and floor plate, you can convert it to a real magazine. (won't get last round keeps bolt open, but you can't win them all)

The internal mechanisms are all the same.

So... they were having serious problems here... So they limited (now) the slides to be aluminum. A few people still stuffed real bullets into the airsofts, and when the pulled the trigger... the slide exploded....

How do you say Darwinism in chinese???:what:

Aikibiker
March 17, 2003, 03:36 PM
Twoblink,

I had no idea they were so close in design to the originals. Now I am wondering how interchangeable they are. As in could I get a Socom MK23 airsoft and use the frame to build a real one. (illegal as hell I know and I wouldn't try it, but inquiring minds want to know) And is this a new source of cheap parts for our real guns?

Also to get a rifled barrel on a conversion like you described would it be possible to substitute the barrel from the original firearm?

The magazine thing intrigues me. Makes me wonder about the source of all these pre-ban mags that seem to be coming out of the woodwork.

Kevlarman
March 17, 2003, 03:41 PM
Converting airsofts to real guns? Come on.

True, this used to be a concern when a Japanese airsoft maker (Marushin, I think) made their guns out of good-quality steel, as collector's editions or something. People found out that you can stuff a bullet in there and probably get off 1 or 2 shots before the gun exploded in your face. Nowadays, airsofts are usually made of plastic, and the ones that are metal use el-cheapo potmetal that will not withstand the pressures of a real bullet.

Airsofts are not always exact 1:1 replicas of their real steel counterparts. There are some variances when it comes to their dimensions, due to the fact that the airsoft has to accommodate a gearbox and stuff.

2nd Amendment
March 17, 2003, 04:34 PM
OK, if they're this precise then I'm wondering if the arm hook for the new SPAS folder that's out would fit my real one? Gotta be easier to get than an original. :)

DrDremel
March 17, 2003, 05:55 PM
My point is that yours is not really full auto either, It is a bb gun. It is kind of like buying a toy car and pretending you can drive in it. Nice as a kid but I would rather get a real one or none at all. As to the flinching, The guy is from Taiwan, So he didn’t develop a flinch from a real gun. I guess I look at it like the Trekkies that walk around in Klingon outfits. Looks like the real thing but in the end it is just a wannabe. After seeing the thread I looked at some at a gun show. No way any of them can be converted to shoot. The guy in Taiwan thinking they are the same as real guns with some modifications, You haven’t seen many real guns cause they are not even close to being able to shooting real ammo. It seems to me it is an extremely overpriced toy that is not even as powerful as a real bb gun. This has reinforced my commitment to the second amendment as I see other countries forced to run around with toys. What are you guys training for? If you ever need your training, what are you going to do, shoot someones eye out? I picture most of the people buying this stuff as the same people that buy "Ninja Shoes" and other stuff. Yeah I likeed Ninja stuff too but I was 11 at the time. I will but on my bb-proof flame armor now.

Schuey2002
March 17, 2003, 06:15 PM
The guy is from Taiwan,
Twoblink is an American, he's just living/working over there as a teacher..;)

Yohan
March 17, 2003, 06:29 PM
My point is that yours is not really full auto either, It is a bb gun. It is kind of like buying a toy car and pretending you can drive in it. Nice as a kid but I would rather get a real one or none at all. As to the flinching, The guy is from Taiwan, So he didn’t develop a flinch from a real gun. I guess I look at it like the Trekkies that walk around in Klingon outfits. Looks like the real thing but in the end it is just a wannabe. After seeing the thread I looked at some at a gun show. No way any of them can be converted to shoot. The guy in Taiwan thinking they are the same as real guns with some modifications, You haven’t seen many real guns cause they are not even close to being able to shooting real ammo. It seems to me it is an extremely overpriced toy that is not even as powerful as a real bb gun. This has reinforced my commitment to the second amendment as I see other countries forced to run around with toys. What are you guys training for? If you ever need your training, what are you going to do, shoot someones eye out? I picture most of the people buying this stuff as the same people that buy "Ninja Shoes" and other stuff. Yeah I likeed Ninja stuff too but I was 11 at the time. I will but on my bb-proof flame armor now.

Dr.Dremel,
Do you have an indoor gun range at your house? No? Airsoft guns are a cheap way to practice indoors. Before you whine some more about them being toys, you should buy some high quality ones and have a look at them. You looked at some at a gun show? Well, I guess that makes you the resident expert all of a sudden, right? :rolleyes: Have you seen the CO2 powered airsoft pistols? They can be modified to be much more powerful than a real bb gun.

Ian
March 17, 2003, 06:39 PM
DrDremel - What are you guys training for? If you ever need your training, what are you going to do, shoot someones eye out? I picture most of the people buying this stuff as the same people that buy "Ninja Shoes" and other stuff.
The reduction in power is the whole idea (they're not too "soft," though - getting hit on bare skin will leave a nice welt). IMO, the only way to really become proficient with a weapon is to use it in combat against other people. This is taken for granted in other martial arts, but it's hard to do with firearms. If you were to do some live-fire sparring with a real pistol, you would quickly run out of people to practice with. Using Airsoft guns allows you to have a weapon with virtually identical feel and function as your real pistol, but that isn't lethal (the equivalent of a waster, boxing gloves, or blunt practice knife). Sure, there are some things you can't do with Airsofts - shooting at moderate and long ranges is impractical (the pellets drop far faster than bullets), malfs are not realistic, and there's no recoil (making rapid fire artificially easy). These are minor points compared to the benefits. The best you can do at a range with a real pistol is to have a humanoid-looking target. Real opponents in a gunfight will move, use cover, shoot back, work together (or at least try to), and be sneaky and unfair.

I've done a decent amount of training with my real 1911, and I've just recently begun practicing with an Airsoft 1911 (see my thread in S&T). Even with my very limited Airsoft experience, I don't think any training regimen can possibly be considered complete without the inclusion of some Airsoft sparring.

FWIW, I don't have any ninja boots, throwing stars, or $150 tactical kneepads. Airsoft pistols just happen to be quite useful and practical tools.

PerfectGlock
March 17, 2003, 07:10 PM
I believe the airsoft gun that could readily and easily be changes into a working, lasting firearm was the Asahi Remington 700, which was made of very good steel and fired a plastic bullet or BB at over 500 feet per second.

Airsoft is the cheapest and safest way to fire a machine pistol in your basement, and the cheapest way to rip off 60 tracer rounds into the midnight sky. Some people will not understand, or maybe they're like Mike Dillon, with 7 sq. miles of land and hundreds of machineguns, fed by millions and millions of dollars worh of ammo. For us common folk, we can use airsoft for the time being.

Down with the 1934 NFA Firearms Act!

DrDremel
March 17, 2003, 07:35 PM
If you look at my posts you will see that I am talking about people that act as if these are real. One guy posts that he finally stopped flinching with a bb gun? The first poster was from Austrailia, where they lost their right to own most firearms. Comparing any airsoft to a real full auto is a joke. Dry fire practice with a real firearm is better training. Some extremely good shooters have proved that it works. The triggers are not the same. By the way, I never professed to be an expert. Even if you were to bump up the power it still shoots a plastic bb. I never said there weren't any full automatic airsoft guns. But they are a far cry from any real gun. For the prices these things go you would be better off saving up for a real gun. In many asian countries they run around with a full swat team airsoft get-up.

standingbear
March 17, 2003, 08:10 PM
ever shot the select fire mac12, .380 version?uses gas and cycles just like the real deal-internally,they are very similiar to the real deal.pop some glow in the dark bbs in there and blast away in the dark.soumnds more like series of caps going off,even recoils(bolt actually cycles each shot).same size and metal parts.hate searching for all those bbs after the thing is empty.

Tamara
March 17, 2003, 10:04 PM
For the prices these things go you would be better off saving up for a real gun.

Gosh, I wish I could afford a real gun.

Pictured below are a few items out of my collection. Three of them are airsofts. (Hint: Any of them that would sport a retail tag north of three grand or only be available to SOTs is an airsoft.)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=175911

Tamara
March 17, 2003, 10:10 PM
The spring based ones can't be converted; but the air ones can.

Somebody's been yankin' your chain.

A Brockock air revolver can be crudely converted to fire .22 LR cartridges. No airsoft gun (gas, spring/piston, or electric) can.

twoblink
March 17, 2003, 10:12 PM
DrDremel...

If you would actually read my subsequent posts..

I said, I use to flinch with my .40SW Steyr M40, but after shooting on airsofts, I have stopped the bad habit of flinching.

Second, as a person who owns 12 guns, I seem to know at least what a real gun looks like and feels like.

As someone who has gone to the bb store here in Taiwan and seen and felt a converted Glock 17 as well as a converted Beretta 92 and HK USP45, I would say, while I wouldn't trust my own life shooting an airsoft-->real gun; they are as real as it gets. Everything about them is real. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that they will fire a real centerfire round. The problem of course is the lack of predictability of where the bullet will go, as there's no rifling.

The neighborhood cats this morning had a little meeting on my porch, and they were meowing like Iraqi soldiers, and so a few pecks with the airsoft got rid of them, without harming them.

The feel etc... is VERY real, especially the triggers...

Don't knock it until you try it, and don't knock it if you don't own it. Most of my gun friends bought some after they tried mine.

Also, it's one of the best ways to "try before you buy" a real gun; I bought a Glock 17 airsoft, for my gf to try, to see if she likes it. At first, she said it was fine, but now she says the grips aren't that comfortable, and the gun is a bit too big. Great! I spent $10, to find that out, no regrets.

Also, if YOU flinch, maybe you should try an airsoft, no recoil, and so you will learn not to flinch before you pull the trigger.. They are great tools for learning and training, and I think airsoft wars are better then paintball...

Tamara
March 17, 2003, 10:17 PM
The problem of course is the lack of predictability of where the bullet will go, as there's no rifling.

What manufacturer makes these? Marui? Who?

The bore diameter of airsofts is 6mm. If you'll strip one, you'll see the plastic barrel is a dummy.

Please stop spreading misinformation before you get someone on THR hurt. :scrutiny:

Ian
March 17, 2003, 10:27 PM
Tamara - You're assuming that the Airsoft guns available in Taiwan are the same ones available here, and I suspect that isn't true. Wouldn't the ATF ban importation of convertible Airsofts? Seems like an ATFish thing to do...

Tamara
March 17, 2003, 10:29 PM
There are only so many manufacturers of airsofts.

I'll bet twoblink my G29 against his Steyr...

All he's gotta do is bring an airsoft back from Taiwan and convert it to fire centerfire pistol ammo with reliable witnesses.

I'm pretty confident. ;)

Yohan
March 17, 2003, 10:31 PM
If you look at my posts you will see that I am talking about people that act as if these are real. One guy posts that he finally stopped flinching with a bb gun? The first poster was from Austrailia, where they lost their right to own most firearms. Comparing any airsoft to a real full auto is a joke. Dry fire practice with a real firearm is better training. Some extremely good shooters have proved that it works. The triggers are not the same. By the way, I never professed to be an expert. Even if you were to bump up the power it still shoots a plastic bb. I never said there weren't any full automatic airsoft guns. But they are a far cry from any real gun. For the prices these things go you would be better off saving up for a real gun. In many asian countries they run around with a full swat team airsoft get-up.
Dremel, since you're so convinced that Airsoft guns aren't realistic- Why don't you tell us which ones in Tamara's pictures are real and which ones are airsofts? :rolleyes: As someone mentioned, you can also practice manuevers with airsofts. I'm willing to bet that someone's who's practiced a lot with airsofts would do much better than you. Oh wait, are you one of those people who walk around the house with a gun and practice rolling around the corner? After all, dry firing is a great way to practice, right? :rolleyes:

Thumper
March 17, 2003, 10:40 PM
Tam...the PDW, the 93R, and the FN P90?

:-)

Hey, Dr Dremel...you sound as if you don't know that some pretty high speed, low drag orgs use airsoft for training.

FBI HRT and LA SWAT. Trigger on my airsoft glock is indistinguishable from the real thing. Perfect for first shot from concealment drills.

Very good down time training. Super good force on force training.

You argue from a position of ignorance. Not a good idea. Don't knock it 'til you try it.

Tamara
March 17, 2003, 10:41 PM
There are two major types of airsofts; the spring loaded ones, and the compressed air ones.

There are three major types of airsofts: Gas guns, electric guns, and spring/piston guns.

Only electrics are worth using as anything more than toys/props. :D

Kcustom45
March 17, 2003, 11:21 PM
Lets get down to the real question at hand here. Why does there seem to be an orange extension cord in a lot of Tamara's pictures? Any theories?
:D

Tamara
March 17, 2003, 11:23 PM
That's actually been two different drop cords.

Ask my landlord what's up with the wiring up here; he's a THR member... :D

444
March 18, 2003, 12:22 AM
Where can one buy the real good Airsoft guns ? I remember seeing some at a gunshow that I thought were actual sub guns. That link posted eariler didn't work for me. I did a search a couple months ago but I didn't know what I was looking at, and many of the places selling them were not in the US. I remember seeing an M3 that looked interesting. Of course I would like an M16 if the price was within reason. I wouldn't be interested unless the Airsoft gun was very realistic looking.

Schuey2002
March 18, 2003, 12:30 AM
Kcustom45, your right. I didn't even notice this one and it was out in plain view.:uhoh:

It's a conspiracy of some sort, I tell ya' !!

A close encounter of the " Extension Cord " kind, if you will..:D

Yohan
March 18, 2003, 12:31 AM
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/BulletDetail?bulletID=22

:D

another48hrs
March 18, 2003, 12:44 AM
444, theres a store next to the Belz factory outlet that has the japanese airsoft long guns. I have a M3 super 90 airsoft shorty that is really fun. You put in a shotshell that holds thirty bbs and then each time you pump you shoot three of them at the same time.

444
March 18, 2003, 12:46 AM
Now that you mention it, someone told me that at one time. I will have to check it out.
So it isn't in the mall, but next to it ?

another48hrs
March 18, 2003, 12:58 AM
Its not inside the mall, but its in that little shopping center next to it where the CK and Saks 5th Ave outlet is.

444
March 18, 2003, 01:02 AM
Got it.

twoblink
March 18, 2003, 01:39 AM
Tamara, custom made ones here... I went digging for the business card, couldn't find it.

I have a japanese catalog, those aren't it. Those are the plastic lined ones. Those won't work. Those aren't the ones I'm talking about..

While it's a bit hard for me to find a 9mm round... I hope I can find some time to go to the store, and take a few pics for ya..

The bore diameter is 6mm for the airsofts, but in taiwan, the guns are made with the correct barrel diameter, so when you look at it, you can't tell that it's an airsoft. This was done for a reason. My buddy says (however) there is no feedramp, and so it's handload only..

I've handled it, pretty real to me!!

Tamara, I'll work hard to find out for ya. since you seem so interested in one.

Weimadog
March 18, 2003, 01:52 AM
Does the trigger on the Airsoft Glocks feel like the real thing? If it did, I would use it for training.

Weimadog

twoblink
March 18, 2003, 02:02 AM
Let me go ahead and post a few "airsoft custom" pics, and you tell me if that barrel exit looks like a 9mm or .45ACP, instead of a 6mm bb hole..

http://www.kwc.com.tw/gun04.jpg

http://www.wa-gunnet.co.jp/cool/img/top_wa-btt.jpg

http://www.kwc.com.tw/gun03.jpg

as they are 100% replicas, they go through the detail of replicating the barrels as well. I have seen an exploded diagram of most of these guns, and they are very close to the real thing..

The P7 replicas will even lock the breech when you squeeze the cocker!

another48hrs
March 18, 2003, 04:06 AM
Well, Twoblink from that angle you can't see the 6mm bore, but when you look straight at it its pretty obvious. My M3 looks like a 12 guage but when you look inside its like the end of a meat grinder.

I also heard they have airsoft using a bigger size pellet in 8mm.

Weimadog: My brother has a Glock airsoft gun and when we went to go try a Glock 19 at the shooting range everything felt earily similair. I believe the trigger pull was similiar too, but that was a long time ago.

Tamara
March 18, 2003, 08:29 AM
The P7 replicas will even lock the breech when you squeeze the cocker!

It's not a very good replica then, is it? ;) (Real P7s don't do that...)

If they're "100% replicas", twoblink, how do they fire airsoft pellets?

and you tell me if that barrel exit looks like a 9mm or .45ACP, instead of a 6mm bb hole..

You don't have to show any pics, twoblink, I'm a big ol' airsoft fan. They're counterbored to look like the proper diameter.

MAKOwner
March 19, 2003, 03:36 AM
I think the airsoft alot of people are familar with is the toy crap. The "real" stuff is very nice, and shoots about as good as a paintball gun. The "real" stuff is the Gas Block Back pistols (GBBs, semi or full auto, slide cycles like a real one on every shot), and the Automatic Electric Guns (AEGs, select fire) which are usually subguns/rifles. The "springers" that you cock everytime you fire, and the little tiny toy full autos at guns shows are crappy toy trash. A stock AEG like MP5 model shoots about 280 fps. (and you can upgrade them easily/cheaply to shoot higher) A stock GBB pistol shoots around that fps too.

The mags on these guns are the actual magazines. You reload by swapping them out just like the real thing. The gas guns have a small refillable cartridge inside the mag body for the gas (refillable with gas from a can via a nipple on the bottom) and they also contain the actual BBs (25 rounds in my M9s case, slightly too many but hey...) So during play the slide actually locks back after the last round is fired, you drop the mag with the realistically placed mag release, slam in a fresh one, hit the slide release and you're ready to go. With the AEGs you don't actually cock the gun with the charging handle. You just slap in a new mag and it's ready to fire (only downside to them...).

Me and about 8 guys in the area including my younger brother (who has a Tokyo Mauri MP5 A5 AEG) use airsoft instead of paintball because of the extra realism. Holding a realistic gun, and doing realistic reloads and stuff is major fun, and is good practice IMO. We all carry 4-6 extra mags, use real milsurp LBVs, wear full BDUs, etc when playing. I'm sure it's a "OMG they're terrorists" panic phone call to the police waiting to happen, lol...

For playing "simulations" or war games or whatever you wanna call it, the AEGs are the ticket. The gas pistols would be decent indoors, but let me tell you are you outdistanced, and outgunned outdoors in the woods (as I suppose you would be in real life with a pistol vs a subgun/rifle).

I currently only own a Gas block back KSC Beretta M9. I got it since it was darn similar to my Taurus PT92 AF. And it is, it functions just like the real thing, mag reloads are accomplished exactly like the real thing, it is GREAT training IMO. The trigger setup is virtually identical and it feels the same, the safety works the same (the M9 is of course slightly different in this area from a Taurus, but the Airsoft M9 has a functioning decocker, full safety etc just like real). It has the same 3 dot sights, the mag release, and the slide release are in the same spots. If that isn't great practice to fake combat with a "toy" gun that close to your real one than I don't know what the hell is. There is no other way short of simunitions to get that kind of practice, shooting at real living, thinking opponents...

Of course when skirmishing with the guys I don't even use it, several of the other's have multiple AEGs so I just bum one of them for now. (I am too broke to spend $350 on one right now, I can another real AK for cheaper, but I can't shoot anyone with the real one without some consequences, lol) As I said you are outgunned trying to use a GBB pistol against AEGs.



About the airsoft being converted to fire real bullets, that is bull****. First off, the out barrels on these things is there for looks, it would not fire a bullet. Second off, on the AEGs they do not have a functioning bolt, would not cycle or load a road, and even if they did they would not fire it (no firing pin). The gas guns are very similar to a real pistol, but they do not have a firing pin, real mags do not quite fit in them, and there is not way in hell the gas assembly would fire off a live cartridge. (BTW, my KSC M9 is Taiwanese I believe). There are no currently made airsoft guns that wold be realistically converted to really fire. IFFFF you somehow did manage it would be explode on the first shot.

I will take some scans of my airsoft M9 vs my Taurus...

MAKOwner
March 19, 2003, 04:10 AM
Here we go, scanned these on my flatbed scanner. Keep in mind the slight differences between the Taurus and the real Beretta (slide mounted vs frame mounted safety, slight different dimensions, etc), but all in all this airsoft thing is damn close to the real thing, both in in looks and even in the functioning and breakdown/major assemblies of the thing... Also I haven't bothered to remove the orange paint on the tip of barrel, keep meaning to do that... And this is a relatively cheap brand ($100 for this gun at www.airsoftatlanta.com), there are some that are MUCH nicer...

http://www.inter-scape.com/ray/stuff/airsoft1.jpg

http://www.inter-scape.com/ray/stuff/airsoft2.jpg

http://www.inter-scape.com/ray/stuff/airsoft3.jpg

I couldn't fit all the pieces of the Taurus on there, so I just stuck the frame on there. Very similar.... But still no way in hell do you effectively convert the airsoft to fire real bullets, at least not more than once and certainly with alot of danger to shooter, probably more than to the target...

I plan to get an AK AEG since it will be mighty similar to my real AKs, I figure it will be excellent practice on that side of things too (I usually use a MP5 or Sig 550 when borrowing an AEG currently...)

I mean other than simunitions, is there any better tactical simulation setup that is even remotely affordable? These things are fairly cheap considering that, $350 will get you a nice AEG, $100-$200 can get you a decent GBB...

Kevlarman
March 19, 2003, 06:07 AM
With the right upgrades, it's almost impossible to distinguish airsoft from real steel. These are pics of my Marui AK47, after I upgraded the plastic receiver for a metal one, and added real wood grips:

http://student.ucr.edu/~robilj01/metalbody.jpg
http://student.ucr.edu/~robilj01/finishedright.jpg
http://student.ucr.edu/~robilj01/finishedleft.jpg
http://student.ucr.edu/~robilj01/parts.jpg

Mad Man
March 20, 2003, 05:52 PM
On March 18th, 2003 03:41 AM Tamara wrote:

There are three major types of airsofts: Gas guns, electric guns, and spring/piston guns.

Only electrics are worth using as anything more than toys/props.


Tamara,

Why is that? I'm familiar with the spring/piston guns, but wouldn't a gas-powered Airsoft also be useful? Are the electrics that much more accurate, or do they just have a higher rate of fire, and thus more "fun."

I'm thinking of target practice in the house, or even some force-on-force training.

Thanks.

Weimadog
March 20, 2003, 07:20 PM
Could somebody recommend a source for an Airsoft gas gun like the Glock 26? I would use it for practice.

I have a "springer" P7M13 which needs to have its slide cycled between each shot. It is accurate enough, but feels cheap. I don't want to buy that sort of gun again.

Weimadog

Bainx
March 20, 2003, 07:36 PM
Gotta admit, I bought one of these at a gun show last year. A 1911 wanna be. 15 bucks, looks great. The spring type and let me tell you, it is impressive [velocity of the BB]. It has a realistic functioning thumb safety and actually provides entertainment in the barn-yard while I'm scratchin round with all the animals.
My testing has revealed it to shoot within minute-of-coke-can at 20 feet. Reading this thread has got my taste buds up for other types of airsoft guns.
Don't ponder it any longer. Get one of these.

MAKOwner
March 20, 2003, 10:36 PM
Why is that? I'm familiar with the spring/piston guns, but wouldn't a gas-powered Airsoft also be useful? Are the electrics that much more accurate, or do they just have a higher rate of fire, and thus more "fun."

I'm thinking of target practice in the house, or even some force-on-force training.

Thanks.

I don't agree with Tamara that gas guns are useless. They actually have alot going for them since they operate more realistically. For pistol only exercises, indoors and such (thus shorter range) they are great. But they are not as easily modified, and it gets old buying the gas pretty quickly. And for full on exercises where rifles are desired, with others using AEGs you'll get ruled running around with your gas gun so are useless for that... So it depends on exactly what you want them for...

For sources, try www.airsoftatlanta.com and www.redwolfairsoft.com

Keep in mind prices vary alot, if the place you are looking at is overseas the price will be cheap, but shipping is very high so it often evens out...

cratz2
March 20, 2003, 10:44 PM
That KG-15H is the spittin' image of my PT99AF. I wonder if they sell that model here?

http://www.kwc.com.tw/gun03.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/cratz2/guns//PT99AF.jpg

Tamara
March 20, 2003, 11:09 PM
Maybe "useless" is too harsh a term.

The only real problems with them are: A) They don't work worth a darn in cold weather, and B) The seals seem to go Tango Uniform with apalling regularity (the pricier ones are more durable, however).

Marui is actually releasing some electric pistols with reciprocating slides; hopefully these are good enough to replace gas pistols, but for now, if you want a realistic force-on-force pistol simulator, gas is really the only way to go, despite being somewhat flawed.

Kevlarman
March 21, 2003, 12:27 AM
Tamara, don't bother with Marui's electric blowback (EBB) line. They really are marketed for the ages they say on the box (10 and up).
Blowback is weak, the entire slide does not cycle, they are made of very lightweight plastic, and the "magazines" are a joke! You can't even fire the gnu as fast as you can pull the trigger. I had one about 3 years ago, and I quickly sold it.

Tamara
March 21, 2003, 12:53 AM
Bummer. :(

I was hoping for an alternative to gas. My 93R has left a really bad taste in my mouth re: gas guns, as you can probably tell... :uhoh:

twoblink
March 21, 2003, 01:34 AM
Tamara...

Two years ago, quite a string of bank robberies happened here in Taiwan; with modified Airsofts...

I think a security guard was wounded in one of them..

And so if an airsoft can't be converted into the real thing... don't tell him... he was shot with one!!

The bullet was "crude" at best also... Soft solder with makeshift gunpowder from (what appears to be) magnisum shavings and firecracker powder...

The weapon (in case you wondered) DID explode... but not before firing a round out of it...

Quite a few have been tried and has blown up... But that doesn't mean you can't make it into a "real" one...

Hmm... maybe we are having definition problems..

What I mean by "real" is it will fire a round.

What you mean by "real" is it will act like the glock in your hand.. If that is what you mean... then I agree with you 100%... You'd have to be stupid to try that with an airsoft... But no less then 5 people did two years ago here in Taiwan...

Tamara
March 21, 2003, 09:50 AM
The bullet was "crude" at best also... Soft solder with makeshift gunpowder from (what appears to be) magnisum shavings and firecracker powder...

What'd they use for a primer? What about a firing pin?

DrDremel
March 21, 2003, 12:52 PM
I think the posts about buying them in the mall and making them shoot real bullets, and how bank robbers made them into real guns proves my point, I'm leaving this thread as the bull#$%& is too deep in here. The FBI does not use them for training. They use simunitions, which is a conversion of REAL firearms. For those that buy a pistol version for handling, You are not the people I am talking about. The guys with full-auto bb guns, large collections, tell me they are training with them , or that they were flinching from them. My opinion is now stronger than ever. By the way, I do shoot in by basement, I do have real full-auto, and no I am not some rich guy either. I am a guy that can tell the difference between tactical wanabees, toy collectors, and shooters.

Justin
March 21, 2003, 01:26 PM
DrDremel-

What are a couple of ways that a person can improve their skills without spending money on ammo, and having to go to the range?

1)Dry-firing a real gun
2)Practice with an airgun firing lead pellets
3)Using an airsoft gun

If you are using an airsoft gun to practice concentrating on the front site, squeezing the trigger, and maintaining a good grip, please tell me how that would not translate over to being a better shot with a real gun?

I don't own any airsoft guns, but I do have a Baikal target-grade air pistol. Back when I had the spare time and the discipline to pratice with it in my basement, I not only became a much better shot with said air pistol, but the skills aqcuired tranlated quite nicely over to when I shot at the range with centerfire handguns.

If you have developed bad habits when shooting a real gun, sometimes it can be difficult to determine what they are by trying to self-diagnose when shooting a real gun. It's kind of difficult to tell if you were flinching, or anticipating the shot, or not following through when the thing in your hand is making a really loud noise and moving around a bunch. It's much easier to diagnose such problems when there is little or no recoil.

To that end, I fail to see how dry firing a pistol, shooting an airgun, etc. can improve one's skills with a real firearm, yet shooting airsoft can't.

Justin
March 21, 2003, 01:28 PM
Twoblink-

If people are indeed converting airsoft guns to fire real ammo, I think that most of us would be more willing to believe you if you posted links to a couple of news articles detailing such incidents.

After all, when people in England were converting the Brocock air pistols to fire .22, there were a bunch of articles that detailed it.

Tamara
March 21, 2003, 01:50 PM
I am a guy that can tell the difference between tactical wanabees, toy collectors, and shooters.

Is Denny Hansen (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13852) a "tactical wannabee" or a "toy collector"? Just out of curiosity, mind you... ;)

Ian
March 21, 2003, 02:46 PM
Unless I'm very much mistaken, you can't buy Simunitions conversions unless you're with a military or law enforcement group.

Schuey2002
March 21, 2003, 09:58 PM
Is Denny Hansen a "tactical wannabee" or a "toy collector"?
Is there a door #3 ??

gudel
March 21, 2003, 10:03 PM
i used to play with airsoft, but now i got a real one, i think i'll stay with a real one :)

Tamara
March 21, 2003, 11:45 PM
i used to play with airsoft, but now i got a real one, i think i'll stay with a real one

Yeah, but force-on-force training with real ones gets a little problematic, what with the homicide charges and all... ;)

It's not an either/or kind of thing. :)

DrDremel
March 22, 2003, 09:28 PM
I never said that everyone had to be either a wanabee or a toy collector. I'd say since Denny Hansen has the real versions of the guns he has airsoft versions of he would fall into the 3rd categoy listed in my post.

Andrew Wyatt
March 23, 2003, 02:50 AM
Anyone know where i can find a 1911 gas or spring gun with a flat mainspring housing high visibility fixed sights, a short trigger, and an ambi safety?


all of the ones i've some across are either widebodies or have an arched MSH.

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