Suicide at the range


March 16, 2003, 02:09 AM
A sad day at the range today.

The man in the lane next to me killed himself. There will be an investigation I assume, but from his posture and wound it seemed an obvious suicide. It was a crowded, rainy, Saturday afternoon at the range. Sadly, I was taking a friend, who hadn't shot in a while, to work with her new gun. What a great way to start. huh?

I wasn't my usually aware self, as I concentrated on her instruction. You know how ya do, going over it in your mind to see if you could have done something better. But after watching the replay of the range videotape, it was obvious there was nothing I could'a done. He walked to the lane, loaded and ate the 1st round. This is an indoor range with solid partitions between each lane, so I couldn't see him.

I never bring my troubles online, but this subject and forum seem appropriate. My friend was less shocked than I, as she said, 'This seems like a dangerous place.' Smart lady. Once again, I gain a valuable lesson at someone else's expense. Hard to feel lucky though, guess my troubles aren't so bad after all. Stay safe.

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March 16, 2003, 02:12 AM
This happens way too often.

This is why there are many ranges that will not allow someone to shoot alone.


Bob Locke
March 16, 2003, 02:14 AM
Suicide: a permanent solution to temporary troubles.

I had a buddy "try" to kill himself while we were going through nuclear power training back in the late 80's. I say "try" because from the attempt he made I don't think he was really making an effort to end his life. It was still pretty unnerving to walk into his room and see him bleeding from the wrists, though.

At least you and your friend weren't injured. Take some comfort in that, and the fact that there wasn't a single thing you could've done about what happened.

March 16, 2003, 02:25 AM
I listen to my county's fire dispatch when I am driving. I hear on average of one suicide attempt an hour. It is amazing how frequently these things happen.

I am sorry to hear about you going through this. I would be very shaken up myself.


March 16, 2003, 02:32 AM
I am sorry to hear that happened. Although you did not know him and there wasn't anything you could have done, I am sure you must be feeling a tremendous amount of guilt and sadness of which I could not even fathom as just a high school student. I hope that this event does not trouble you too much. My condolences to you, the dude, his family, and everyone who was involved. Suicide is never the answer, unless the question was something like "what is NEVER the answer?" in which case suicide would be the answer. I hope I had words to make you feel better, but I feel that it would inappropriate for me to make such attempt. I hope everything goes back to status quo again. :(

March 16, 2003, 02:34 AM
Braz, sorry to hear about this. This guy sounded determined. While in high school I had a friend try to commit suicide. He took an old 22 rifle out the closet, went into his bedroom. He put the gun to his head and squeezed the trigger, BANG. He did not die, he was not even wounded. The bullet, after inspection was found lodged in the barrell. He took this to be a sign from God that his time was not up and went on to a good life. I don't know the particulars of why this particuallar round did'nt work, I was not there, but the odds of this happening the way it did must be way up there. There's a lot in life that doesn't make sense. Hang in there

March 16, 2003, 02:42 AM
OMG. How awful. I'm so sorry!! :( :(

March 16, 2003, 03:26 AM
I am guessing that suicides may go up slightly due to the economic down turn.

Glad he did not decide to play Rambo on his way out - or shoot a few people and make others shoot him - that could have moved it from tragic to horrific.

March 16, 2003, 04:30 AM
I am really very sorry you had to be there, and I sympathize with any feelings you may be having.

Personally, I detest those who commit suicide.

I think it is the pinnacle of selfishness.


I know a man who committed suicide a while back.

He was around 50, had a wife and two handsome, wonderful sons that anyone would be proud of.

One son was recently engaged to a delightful young lady.

They were quite well off, and IIRC, both his sons (or at least one) were working for him.

He killed himself right around Christmas time.

One of his sons found him.

They really don't even know why he did it.

I *think* (IIRC) he was having some problems in his business, but nothing to the extent that it would cause most people to kill themselves.

If anything, the "problem" would have meant that they would have to postpone the trip to Hawaii, or stay in a 4-star hotel. (As opposed to 5 star.) We're not talking "problems" like they wouldn't be able to eat.

Personally, I just don't have a whole lot of sympathy or care for those who commit suicide.

I care far more for those they so selfishly left behind.

Another great example is Kurt Cobain.

"Man, I can't handle having all the money, fame, and material posessions I want, so I'm gonna kill myself and leave my wife and baby behind."


Again sir, I'm sorry you had to be there for that, but you should put it in perspective.

If anything, do not grieve for him.

Grieve for those he so thoughtlessly left behind.


March 16, 2003, 04:39 AM
Yeah Pen,

That's what I was mad at myself for, not paying attention. All I heard was a shot and a groan. I peeked around the partition and he appeared gone. But we did it right, we cleared our weapons and I got her to a safe position. Then I went for the range officer. He halted fire, had everyone clear and vacate to the lounge to wait for the cops to take statements.

Everyone took it in stride, but we were all a bit shocked. The owners were understandably grim, as this puts them under the scope. But they were gracious in getting us out asap. It was wierd watching the video of the event while we waited for the cops. (2 minutes, gunshots have 'em coming) Sad thing to have on tape with me three feet away from him. Gotta feel for his family.

Admiral Thrawn
March 16, 2003, 04:44 AM
Sorry to hear about this unfortunate event.

It's always been a question in my mind how often such range suicides occur, and whether people ever try to go on "Rambo" sprees at the range, shooting others there.

I've never heard of anything like this here in Australia and would imagine that it isn't that common elsewhere...

Am I mistaken? :(

Jim March
March 16, 2003, 05:28 AM
The ranges in my area will let you shoot alone, so long as you bring at least one obviously working gun in with you. The idea being, it's proof you don't "need" to come in there to use one of theirs :(.

Very sad. But, on the flipside, if it wasn't a range it'd be a tall building or something :barf:.

NOT your fault at all.

As to suicide: if somebody very terminally ill and in pain wants out, and has the guts to do it themselves WITHOUT burdening others, cool. Leave a note explaining the circumstances, so you don't leave anybody any more heartbroken than they would be when you kicked off from the tumor or whatever in a few weeks anyhow.

Other than that, it's just cruel and stupid.

March 16, 2003, 06:22 AM

Would you mind sharing which firing range this occured at? I live in L.A. and am curious. Send me a PM if you prefer.

March 16, 2003, 08:40 AM
This is never an easy thing. I have never gone through anything like this. There isnt anything you could have done though.
People commit suicide for many reasons it seems. Some have problems that to us in out right minds seem small. I dont think someone who kills themselves is mentally stable. Think about it. Most people who kill, or try to kill themselves are severly depressed:( Its a shame for all involved. It is selfish as well. I cant understand how someone can kill themselves in their home knowing a family member would find them that way. I dont get it:(
Sorry that you had to experiance this.

Study Butte
March 16, 2003, 08:59 AM
I am sorry to hear of your experience. The same thing happened a couple of years ago at an indoor range that I frequent.
I wasn't present at the time that it occured but I still feel a bit freaky whenever I go there to shoot.

March 16, 2003, 09:01 AM
I'm sorry he felt there was no way out. I've been there though...three attempts in high school with pills. Learning disabled, failing in school, no social life or close relationships -- fortunately, talking with a psychologist (and family friend) helped me get through it. Not 100% but at least I know I'd never try something so foolish again. He may have had other problems but I'm sure the economy didn't help matters. I hope your friend wasn't too shaken by the incident. There really was nothing you could have done.

Steve Smith
March 16, 2003, 09:26 AM
Gene pool cleanup on aisle five!

The weak shall inherit nothing.

March 16, 2003, 09:43 AM
At least he didn't hurt anybody else in the process :(

Things like this are horrible.. If he wanted to commit suicide, should have done it at a democratic convention...

March 16, 2003, 09:43 AM
People are responsible for their own actions, period.

The range isn't responsible, the other shooters at the range aren't responsible, and the gun isn't responsible.

Neither are tall buildings, bridges, rivers, ropes, electric cords, autos, railroads, razors, knives, plastic grocery bags ..... etc.

March 16, 2003, 11:28 AM
Happens far too often, especially in places you can go rent a firearm.

March 16, 2003, 11:54 AM
Generally, in western cultures anyway, suicide is the last desperate act of one who is severly depressed. This is a mental condition that can be treated if the symptoms are noticed by friends and loved ones. Pro-active prevention is really the only way to prevent this kind of thing. This affliction strikes people of all ages, but it seems to come about during specific time periods and events in a persons life.

Hang in their Braz. A terrible thing to have witnessed, but as your fellow THRs are quick to point out, you could have done nothing to prevent this.

March 16, 2003, 12:23 PM
Morbid curiosity question, sorry if it's crass. Did the deceased shoot himself right handed, left handed or straight on? I have always taken lanes at the far right of the range on the theory that most shooters are right handed and would probably shoot themselves with their dominant hand.

March 16, 2003, 12:27 PM
Our range requires that only parties of two or more can rent.

I had an ex-roommate who used to always talk about how he tried to commit suicide just to get attention.

March 16, 2003, 12:45 PM

Keep in mind that the loss of wealth and material posessions are not the only reasons people kill themselves (or try to). People with no money problems still kill themselves.


March 16, 2003, 12:52 PM
Life is short enough to be committing suicide.:(

Say a prayer for the guys family and for Braz and everybody else effected.

It is sad that this person had to choose a range to do it but at least he didn't set out to hurt anyone but himself, physically. I realize that many will be hurt and affected but what I am saying is at least he didn't go on a killing spree etc.

Take care and be safe everybody.


March 16, 2003, 01:14 PM
i think i'll play the other side of the card for a minute or two...

suicide most certainly is selfish. however, i think there are circumstances where a person has no one they feel comfortable turning to and the emptiness of their lives is too much for them to handle. does that make them weak? maybe. but theres a fine line between weakness, and being sapped of all your strength. a strong man can have his force sapped out of him. does that make him a pansy?

i've stopped my cousin from killing himself, but you know what? i knew what he had been through in his life and how i was one of the few family members that actually gave a damn about him. dozens of other family members would throw gasoline on him if he were on fire. i knew how losing his mother to a heart attack when he was 12 still stung him deeply. i knew how his conscience plagued him because he didnt have a good relationship with his mother and didnt get a chance to tell her how much he loved her before she died. i knew how he turned to drugs to escape his pains and how that failed.

i knew he was going to kill himself, and i got ready to leave him at his place so he could do it. i made sure to make my peace with him, and made it as far as the front door before going back and stopping him, while hes begging me to "just leave! let me be."

that wasnt the first time hes been stopped from hurting himself. nor was it the last.

does everyone have a reason to live? some make a difference in society, others leech off the achievements of others and steal oxygen. would anyone shed a tear if blagovich or daley or feinstein ate a bullet?

i am reminded of the historical account of the Lost Battalion, and Major Whittlesey's suicide in 1921, definitely due to not being able to handle the stress and trauma of WWI. do people call him "weak"? "selfish"? i still think of him as a Hero, leading his men through the horrors of being stranded behind enemy lines, his own artillery blowing his men to pieces because they didnt know their position.

unless you know a suicide victims entire story, mental health history, etc, its ill-advised to judge so quickly.
its amazing to me how suicide is so looked down upon, yet society accepts the fact that people engage in unprotected sex, risking STD's, people smoke, risking lung cancer, people drink, risking liver problems, people use drugs, risking overdoses. its as if we are saying, its okay for you to make choices that kill you gradually, but heaven forbid you try to kill yourself in one motion!

just a tad bit hypocritical.

rock jock
March 16, 2003, 01:24 PM

Sorry to hear about this. I hope it won't keep you from enjoying shooting as a sport.

March 16, 2003, 01:28 PM
I hope you're okay Braz, you can't blame yourself. I feel bad about the post I started yeterday.

Jason Demond
March 16, 2003, 04:52 PM
We had some guy do this at our local range a couple years ago, he just loaded up, and blew his head off. This is a private range BTW, and there are no range officers. The only thing he left, besides the gore, was a note for some one to call the MI State Police. One of the things that really made me mad was the the people who found him, were a young man and his 6 year old son. This being the kids first range trip, I can only imagine the trauma the poor little guy suffered.

March 16, 2003, 05:07 PM
Suicide is never the answer.

Edited by moderator

March 16, 2003, 05:15 PM
As many problems I go thru now ( forclosing on the house , truck in process of repocession , unemployed and in final phases of treatment causing wild mood swings and depression ) I never will think of this, I have struggled in my life to get where I was at before it all fell apart , I once almost killed myself when I found out my wife was cheating on me(several years ago ) and my mom talked me out of it at 3 am , It is a shame that this soul couldn't talk it out with someone , anyone, before doing this , the Line my mom used was "you don't hurt yourself ,Just the ones who love or care for you" .If I do lose it all( material Items ) I still have my friends and family . If any of your friends or family even talk about it, it is a signto talk to them . it doesn't hurt to talk .. but it hurts to loose someone .

March 16, 2003, 05:41 PM
Clerking in a gun shop, regular looking guy (in USMC Class Bs, no less) comes in and says "can I see that .357 there", drops in a round and shoots himself before anyone can react...

Happened to a buddy, not me, freaked him out but nobody's fault but the dead guy's own.

March 16, 2003, 05:49 PM
With all this war BS going on, and the end of the worlders coming out of the wood work.

I am sure it don't help those who are already at the edge.


Hk Paul
March 16, 2003, 05:50 PM
Im sorry to hear that happend. I work at a gunstore and this almost happend once. Luckley my co-worker was there teaching her how to use the hammerless revolver and somehow managed to get his pinkey between the rear of the trigger and the trigger guard.
Almost gave him a heart attack. Had it been me watching her i doubt i could of done the same thing.

Yohan: That was downright rude of what you said too spacemanspiff. Where is your respect?
Also that cartoon made your post look immature. Grow a brain.

March 16, 2003, 06:12 PM
HK Paul,
I don't think a person who thinks that it's ok to committ suicide deserves any respect. Grow a brain? Sure.

Hk Paul
March 16, 2003, 06:38 PM
Yohan, I dont think its ok to kill yourself either. and thats not what spacemanspiffs post was about. It was about how society is hypocritical on death.

March 16, 2003, 07:13 PM
Sorry you had to experience that, it is not pretty and it is profoundly sad. :(

Talking about it is best for you, don't keep the feelings bottled up, that can be very detrimental for you.

Hang in there and holler if ya need to talk.
You are not alone, I have seen a few too many suicides and lost a good friend last year to suicide. :(

March 16, 2003, 07:39 PM
Thanks guys,

We're both cool. Just a sad story to tell. We're going back there shooting in a couple'a weeks. Yohan, I know your feelings are strong, but consider your retoric. Not everyone's pain is emotional of course. But 99% pecent of the time you're right, imo.

BTW, you may be right about stress ahead of us, I'm less complacent now, and that's a good thing.

March 16, 2003, 07:46 PM
Was this a gun rental situation? I've heard of suicides at ranges where the firearm is rented.

Frankly, otherwise it makes absolutely NO sense. If you have iron, and you want to off yourself, what keeps you from doing it off in the woods somewhere? Why go to a public range and do it?

My guess is most suicides are not the product of a rational economic choice. Which is why ranting on about how selfish the dead guy was is meaningless gibber. My guess is the dead guy already thought he was completely worthless and selfish.

March 16, 2003, 07:47 PM
In general, I think suicide is clearly not the answer. However, I can understand that for some people, live may just not be worth living. And not being in their shoes, I find it hard to judge them. Particularly those in the late stages of incurable disease, I can clearly understand how they might want to decide how and when to die. Clearly, though, that is only the smallest minority of suicides.

March 16, 2003, 08:01 PM
Yeah Cos,

I had just rented a sweet shooting little G30. I used their rentals to test feel before deciding on a new pistol. I'd hate to give that service up because of extremely rare events. People lose hope. The rest of us are not at fault for that. Nor the tool used, imo.

March 16, 2003, 08:10 PM
If people want to end it. I have no right to judge them.

I have stopped three suicides maybe more by reminding the person of what they had to live for and knocking down the reasons they give for wanting to kill themselves. The only valid reason for suicide is terminal illness and constant unending pain.

Having said that...
I really wish folks wouldn't commit suicide at gun ranges or with dads shotgun in the living room.

If a firearms enthusiast ends his life with a gun he is only working
to destroy what the rest of us hold dear. This is the ultimate in selfishness.

Anti-gun folks love gun suicides, they jump with glee everytime
they read of one because they know its another nail in the coffin
for gun rights.

I am sorry to hear about the unfortunate experience Braz.
I hope the trend ends soon.

March 16, 2003, 08:13 PM
Suicide is never the answer. For some, of course, it seems better at times, than going on with their painful lives. My wife is an example. There has been talk of suicide and I have always convinced her that nothing is ever that bad, though I myself remain unconvinced when I see the suffering she's gone through in the last 23 years. Yet, I am quite selfish in that I wish her to remain at my side.

For those that are faced with uncertainty due to an "economic downturn" it is clearly the coward's way out. I have faced this situation more than once and fought like hell, rather than cash in, though when cleaning my gun once, my mother asked my wife on the phone what I was doing. When she told her, she asked, "You don't think he'd do something stupid, do you?":rolleyes:

Sometimes it's just sad. My niece has been diagnosed bi-polar. She has made 2 attempts so far. She's doing better now, but I can't help but feel sorry for those that probably don't even know what they're doing.

March 16, 2003, 08:40 PM
Sorry to hear about it. I was sent to a call last year in a remote section of the county, in reference to a guy with a gun, shooting, and telling all he was ging to kill himself. He did so, just after I got on scene. Bummer when there's nothing you can do, and I was trying to get him to talk, when he pulled the trigger. Also never good to have something like that happen at a gun range. Not the owners fault, or anyone there, just the deceased one's choice, and a bad one at that. Been on lots of suicide calls, never seen a good one.
Stay safe!

Standing Wolf
March 16, 2003, 09:45 PM
Suicide is usually a permanent solution to temporary problems.

I've known several suicides, and once seriously considered it myself. Nothing is lonelier.

March 16, 2003, 10:18 PM
Steve Smith THR moderator said: Gene pool cleanup on aisle five!

The High Road

Wow Steve I am impressed. I guess you have changed your mind about not being here for the jokes. I don't think you should try to go from not getting the humor, to trying to be funny in just two days.

All you have managed to accomplish is set new standards for insensitivity. Maybe you could get the widows phone number and make fun of her loss.

March 17, 2003, 02:06 AM
Actually some people are wired with a predisposition for suicide.

March 17, 2003, 05:40 AM
Suicide is very, very rarely, if ever, the answer but I try not to judge folks without knowing what all they've been through. It's a trait more people might consider striving for. You guys don't know what some forum members might have been through with friends and family. No doubt several members have had someone close to them take their own life and a couple responses on this thread have really disappointed me... certainly The High Road was not always taken.

And Yohan... you are obviously an intelligent young man. But on this thread, your age is really showing.

Sorry to hear of your experience Braz.

March 17, 2003, 06:24 AM
I hope your friend doesn't lose her interest in the sport. :(

Wrong time to be at that range.

$*^t happens. Too bad for that guy who did not value his own life, and took the wrong way out.

But as always, the 'living' must move on. ;)

Kahr carrier
March 17, 2003, 07:23 AM
Thats a Bummer but unfortunately it happens at a lot of ranges that have rental firearms. There 2 ranges in my area that have rental guns both have had suicides,So their policy is not to rent to people that come in alone and so far that is working for them.

March 17, 2003, 10:05 AM

What an awful story. :( I'm glad you and your friend are both doing okay.

As someone who has experienced profound depression at times, I understand what a terrible temptation suicide can be. And because I understand depression and the selfish nature of the urge to suicide, I have both sincere sympathy and utter condemnation for anyone who would go that route.

Moderator's note: This is a highly emotional topic, but let's try a little harder to keep it on the high road even so.


A suicide kills two people . . . that’s what it’s for. -- Arthur Miller

Steve Smith
March 17, 2003, 10:28 AM
bigjim, that was not an attempt at humor. I'm still the insensitive person I've always been. At least regarding suicide. I am going through some things in my life that would have already had others leaping to their death or making a mess in a shooting range. If I can get through, anyone can.

I - will - not - give - up.

BTW, *** does me being a mod have to do with being able to speak my mind? If pax or runt want to edit my post or speak to me about it, they're welcome to. My opinion does not have to be popular to be acceptable.

Nathaniel Firethorn
March 17, 2003, 11:17 AM
There have been a few comments about suicide being a permanent solution to temporary problems. It ain't always so.

Some people do have legitimate reasons for wanting to end it. Terminal medical conditions, that will end only in pain, humiliation, and emotional and financial stress for the entire family, for instance.

That said, firearms are a lousy way to do it. Making one's move at a range is a particularly wrongheaded thing to do.

- pdmoderator

March 17, 2003, 11:41 AM
I have both sincere sympathy and utter condemnation for anyone who would go that route.

That's not a contradiction. And it expresses my feelings well. Drjones said something about it being the ultimate act of selfishness. Bingo.

In high school, one of my brothers was back at school after being out for a while following the death of his best friend. (Fell asleep at the wheel.) He was late to gym. As he was coming out, some bozo plastered himself all over the gym wall. Motorcycle at 50 MPH or so + concrete wall = mess. My brother was right there to see it.

He's never been the same person since.

Oh, the bozo was upset at breaking up with his girlfriend. :rolleyes:

March 17, 2003, 02:01 PM
I'll chime in here:

When I was managing an indoor range we had three suicides over the space of seven years; leaving aside the question of whether or not suicide is an "answer" or not- I can tell first hand that doing it in a public place like our range, is a completely selfish act and has a tremendous long term effect on the people that witness it and then have to deal with it afterwards. If you want to kill your self, dammit, find a bridge or something- just please please please don't bring your problems into my business and make me a part of them.

Weird observation - one of the gentlemen that decided to check out on our range rented his firearm, a Colt Anaconda .44 6" barrel, then walks back to the ammo counter where I was and inquires as to what the "most powerful hunting ammo" we had. I pointed out a 20 round box of Hornady 300 grn. XTP ammo that we kept on hand for the local wild pig hunters that use handguns. He turned it down saying it was too expensive, decide on some generic Federal red box 240 grn. Bear in mind that on our range we kept a tab running and you paid for everything when you checked off the range.

After the county coroner collected the guy and we were cleaning up the mess it occured to me "What the hell? Why did he pass on the Hornady? IT WASN'T LIKE HE WAS GOING TO PAY FOR IT!

Never understood that.

Braz, that's a messed up thing to have to witness; I hope you and your new shooter friend are ok.

March 17, 2003, 03:46 PM

Another dead guy that Sarah Brady and her ilk will say was killed with a handgun. :cuss:

Why can't these people commit suicide by being Saddam's human shields? Or commit suicide by being the one to take out Saddam with a butter knife, at least, his family will get a few million dollars for his death at the hands of Saddam's bodyguards. :cuss:

March 17, 2003, 03:53 PM
Too bad this guy was so desperate and empty. Anyone who would do this to themselves is not playing with a full deck. Since I don't know why he did it, nor does anyone else, it's beyond my capabilities to judge his state of mind. I think it was unfortuanate that he had to do it in a public place. Better to have done it in private if that's what he had to do. There's a fine line between sanity and insanity for a lot of people. To do this, you have to be insane, at least momentarily, and that's all the time it takes.

March 17, 2003, 04:47 PM
I agree with spacemanspiff and M1911. And I think it's virtually impossible for any of us to say what is "never" the answer for someone else.

Ever notice how this society deals with sadness? It doesn't. Men get sad, but if they cry or show any emotion other than anger, they're called sissies or, worse yet, "girls". And, for people of either gender, grieving the loss of a loved one has socially regulated time limits. Some people expect the survivors to be "over it" (:barf: ) within a matter of months.

There's just not enough ways to channel sad/angry emotions these days, at least I feel that way.

With all that said, I think this is one of the saddest threads on Earth.

Oleg Volk
March 17, 2003, 05:25 PM
If anyone here ever feels like checking out or just plain lousy, drop me a PM or an email and we'll talk. I've phoned folks on TFL and THR before -- people are here to help each other.

March 17, 2003, 05:33 PM
That is a great gesture, Oleg.

Count me in.

I love to talk, and am good with people.

I offer my friendship and support to anyone who may want or need it.

PM me and we can talk on the phone.

I'm sure that many people here would do the same.

March 17, 2003, 05:34 PM
Oleg and DrJones; you're good people.

Johnny Guest
March 17, 2003, 06:52 PM
S_O_Laban’s response earlier about, had a friend try to commit suicide. He took an old 22 rifle . . . put the gun to his head and squeezed the trigger, BANG. He did not die, he was not even wounded. The bullet, after inspection was found lodged in the barrell. He took this to be a sign from God that his time was not up and went on to a good life. I’m glad it sometimes works out that way. But that story reminds me of another - - -
About 30 years back, I was dispatched on a call. Man called from a business trip, fearful for his wife’s safety. Please go to our house. If she doesn’t answer the door, break in. Verification call, relative recognized his voice. I went into this very nice, well furnished, house, and found the woman sitting on the bed, slumped, small amount of blood, pistol in lap. She was cold, so I waited for the ME’s field agent. Plenty of photos later, he handed me the revolver, a cheap RG12.
The really chilling thing for me was that just before the fired shell, there was another, loaded cartridge, with a good firing pin mark on the rim. Oh, wow. She pulled the trigger once and it didn’t fire. She’d had a second chance. On previous suicide calls, I had wondered if there is time–at the speed of thought– for the person to think, “Wait, wait! I didn’t mean it!” Well, this poor woman really meant it. She pulled the trigger a second time.

Say what? Does this one still bother me? Why do you ask?


March 17, 2003, 10:58 PM
Steve Smith Moderator said: BTW, *** does me being a mod have to do with being able to speak my mind? If pax or runt want to edit my post or speak to me about it, they're welcome to. My opinion does not have to be popular to be acceptable.

Simple, when you accept a leadership role your held to a higher standard. A moderator should be able to demonstrate a great degree of self control, kindness, and set a example. Other wise why should he be a moderator? I could never be a moderator because I am mean and vulgar. However I salvage a shread of self respect by admitting it.

Take Bill Clinton for example. Many men would accept oral sex from a pretty co-ed and should not loose their job if they were say a cab driver or a meat packer. However when the Married President of the United States does it in the Oval office that is a problem.

Another example is your use of the *** letters. We all know what that means. So it is no different than if you spelled it out.

I think I have answered your question.

Now just for fun let me see If can tie this to the thread. Some times Suicide may be ok. For instance, ritual suicide like the Japanese seppuku has its place. When Warrior or servent looses his honor and brings shame to his master its is both honorable and acceptable to kill himself to regain his status.

If you think about it being a forum Moderator is much like being a Servent to a great and honorable Lord. I think for you Steve Seppuku may be a bit extreme. But consider another alternitive
"jisatsu". This is much less painful than sticking a knife in your own gut and dieing slowly. You only have to open a major blood vessel and quickly bleed out. Japanese men would do this when they came to a understanding that they would never be the man they wanted to be.

CZ 75 BD
March 18, 2003, 12:39 AM
My neighbor attempted suicide with a .38 to the head. He was blinded, deranged and a total burden on his family from that point. Never learned what drove him to it, but suspect it was fear of a wrongful death lawsuit about to be filed against him for an accident he caused. So many people are affected by every action we take. Pray for all the guy left behind, and pray that everyone realizes there is nothing so bad as to take one's own life.

Steve Smith
March 18, 2003, 10:02 AM
If you have a problem with me, do something about it. Complaining to me does what? Nothing.

You make several assumptions. You assume that being a mod keeps me from posting my opinion. You assume that mod status means that I hold the "moral high ground" on all subjects AND that I am apparently holding "lower ground" becuase of my position on suicide. Who made you god and gave you the ability to decide who is morally righteous? You assume that I have a "master" and there is some kind of "honor" involved here. Sorry, I am my own master and that is that. My opinion is not dishonorable. You assume that I did not excercise self control or kindness with that post. Oh brother, you should know what I wanted to say! If you take a look around and search my threads you will see that I am welcome here as a mod. You will also see that this is in fact one of the only topics that I can think of where I have such a "repulsive" point of view when compared to the majority. The other topic is letting released felons buy firearms. If I take a look around THR I see that you've done a great job baiting others and getting into silly little fights of your own. I won't throw fuel on this fire anymore. You may PM me if you wish, as you have avoided from the beginning. Good day.

March 18, 2003, 11:17 AM
Sorry to hear about your experience, Braz. Your reactions seem normal to me. I'd hate to think that another man's pain and desperate, hopeless act failed to touch any of us.


March 18, 2003, 02:50 PM
My sister-in-law shot herself in the head a few years ago. I'm pissed at her for it and have ZERO sympathy for her. She left behind a couple of kids and almost seriously screwed up her 11 year old son who basically worshipped and lived for her. Luckily my brother (they were divorced, by the way) stepped up to the plate and both kids are doing okay now.

A few years, before she shot herself and while she was still married to my brother, she "tried" to kill herself by od'ing on sleeping pills. At the time I wasn't sure how much of a legitimate attempt it was but she finally succeeded a few years later with a gun. I guess it just goes to show you how efficient they can be.

Honestly, I wish they would have locked her up and prosecuted her for attempted-homicide the first time she tried taking herself out! Then at least the kids could have grown up with my brother and not got all screwed up by their soon to be dead mother! Yeah, it's a far cry from what everyone is saying of how suicide attempts need to be treated with caution and counseling and all that. I've just got no respect for those that kill any person when it's not in self defense. To kill yourself is criminal in my opinion and should be treated that way by LE and the courts!

March 18, 2003, 04:42 PM
In My Humble Opinion
Suicide is an unfogivable sin, everybody speaks of the unbearable pain their loved ones are enduring,(and they certainly have all of my sympathy and compasion). but when a person kills themself, they cannot ask God for forgivness for destroying his temple, and they will spend the rest of eternity in pain and suffering,(in hell)
what they are leaving is far far better than where they are going.
everybody loses:(

March 18, 2003, 05:17 PM

If you believe as a Christian believes, suicide is not an unpardonable sin. Aside from the fact that you could say, "Lord, forgive me for what I am about to do," Christians believe that all sin, past, present and future was forgiven from the cross at Calvary. You need only to accept this to be saved. A Christian believes the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, i.e. slapping God's hands away and saying no thank you.

Moderators, sorry for the OT

March 18, 2003, 05:23 PM
Drjones wrote:

I love to talk

We noticed, Jones! We noticed! :D

I guess that makes you like most of the rest of us around here! ;)

Byron Quick
March 19, 2003, 09:52 AM
Suicide? Multifaceted subject. As a nurse, I can say this: there are many terminal illnesses that I have no interest in pursuing to their natural end...I'll check out first. I've told my that event, give me lots and lots of morphine-as needed-until respiratory depression is achieved.

I've sat vigil with several people who had shot themselves after further treatment was deemed futile. Warning folks, just because you've shot yourself directly in the brain and have achieved a through and through wound...death might not be instantaneous. Like I said, I've sat vigil with several who took at least four hours to die and who knows how long it was before they were discovered. A particular nightmare of mine is that they were totally paralyzed...but conscious. Gives me the willies.

If I'm found dead of any type of ain't suicide, friends. I don't care what the notes by my body says. It was on it. I've seen most ways of traumatic suicide. I wouldn't opt for any of them.

While I have compassion for the personal demons that drive folks to this, my basic attitude is "Think of it as evolution in action."

And that is why I could no longer function, with a clear conscience, as a psychiatric nurse and had to move to emergency.

There is a large measure of vindictiveness in many suicides towards their loved ones. As in committing suicide in a very messy way in a place and time where your closest loved ones (spouse, parents, or children) will find the debris. In many cases, this goes way beyond depression. Instead, in all too many instances, the suicide setting seems to be calculated to cause the maximum trauma to the suicide's closest loved ones. I have little sympathy for such suicides.

On the other hand, I have knowledge of suicides in which the people went to great lengths to avoid their families' discovering the body and to leaving a mess for anyone to clean up. One local guy timed local mail delivery and waited until his family was out of town for a night. He mailed a letter to the policed department. Early on the morning the letter would be delivered and a couple of hours before his family was due back...he drove to the location in the woods noted in the letter, left his car, and shot himself in the heart. Personally, I respect the lengths to which the man went to minimize distress to all concerned. This does not mean that there was not distress but he made major efforts to minimize that distress.

March 19, 2003, 10:57 AM
I just taught my block of instruction on Stress & Suicide at the police academy yesterday. I am a negotiator trained on both county and federal levels with several real life call outs under my belt. You could fill volumes with what I don't know but... like someone else said suicide is a permenant solution to a temporary problem. It is a very logical decision to the person. My job sucks and I can't pay my bills. I can A-Get a new job. B-Cut down on expenditures. C- kill myself. Not logical to us but it is to them. If God forbid you have to deal with a suicidal person. Ask them is they want to kill themself. Contrary to popular belief this will not put the idea in their head. Then try to find out what made them snap today. Most likey something small. Then try to reset their circuit breaker and get them help. Now that the weather is breaking look for an increase of suicides. They do not go up during the holidays contrary to popular wisdom.

March 19, 2003, 11:51 AM
According to the last set of figures that I read. ( a national range masters assc.) There will be one suicide at every range in the United States every 7 monthes. Remove Nevada from that and the figure drops to one suicide every 11 months. (still far to many)

As firearms background checks and waiting periods increase, we have simply moved the suicidal person from the pawn shop and gun store to the rental range.

As a person who has also been a witness to a firing range suicide I can remember many of the emotions and feelings you are likely experiencing...I am very sorry that your shooter and you had to be unwilling witnesses.

Keep the lines of communication open between your shooter and you open....I remember one of the first things I did upon returning home was to post a message simularly to yours on "GT", my own way of sorting the matter out I guess. In hindsight it was pretty theraputic.

Best of luck, Consider my e-mail box always open to you.

SDnR ;)

March 19, 2003, 01:51 PM
Would you guys call a paraplegic selfish, cowardly, etc. because they didn't jump up and get to work, do chores, run errands etc.?

Then what about people's whose brains just don't work right, such that they simply don't have the mental and emotional strength to cope with the difficulties in life that most of us can handle? Why is it so hard to believe that some people are just plain not as tough as you are?

I had a close friend who commited suicide, and while I might have selfishly tried to stop him if I had been there, I don't think he necessarily made a bad decision. Why should he have to suffer and struggle through a whole lifetime just to make other people happy?

For folks who supposedly are in favor of personal freedom, you sure are quick to tell others what not to do.

Oleg Volk
March 19, 2003, 02:36 PM
A note to a couple of folks who are friends in real life and on THR: NOW do you see why I check up on everyone I care about regularly and why I freak out if you start hiding from your friends? If life sucks, don't hide out and let depression feed on itself.

Nathaniel Firethorn
March 19, 2003, 05:56 PM
Oleg, that's a damn good idea. I hope more people get it.

- pdmoderator

March 19, 2003, 09:13 PM
TOR, you are forgetting or ignoring the effect of the suicide on the people who love him or her. Or even the people who find the body. Suicides cause emotional damage and financial burdens to other people. Often those are the people that love them.

They end their own pain at the cost of inflicting a great deal of pain on others.

That's selfish.

And one of the reasons we have seen a rise in suicide in this country is this coddling attitude that excuses the selfishness.

And unlike the paraplegic, they have a choice.

March 20, 2003, 12:18 PM
I guess I'll chime in here. My little brother hanged himself about a year ago. Determined little bugger -- we pieced together that his lady friend came by to see if he was okay while he was in the middle of writing his note. He convinced her he was, she left, you can guess the rest.


I've finally come to the conclusion that at least most of the time there is indeed some chemical stuff going on underneath, making the emotional events more a trigger than a cause.

This was hard for me to come to undertand, as I came very much from the "suck it up, grow stronger, drive on" mindset I see here before I got the chance to see it all close up.

Heck, we see this in our own lives all the time.
Just think of the last time you just about lost your temper over something someone said or did. Was it really what they said or did... or did the statement just scratch an already tender part of your psyche? Same thing I think, just on a much more dramatic scale. Thus, we see folks offing themselves for what seem trivial reasons to the rest of us.

Once someone's emotionally far enough gone that suicide seems a legitimate way out to them, I honestly don't think they can rationally see the impact of their decisions. It doesn't make it right perhaps, but to me anyhow it makes it a whole lot more understandable.

And finally, with all due respect....
No one who's actually experienced the love of God could possibly believe the "they'll burn in hell" story. Luckily, no one tried to feed me that line of tripe once upon a time...

don't judge where ya ain't walked.


March 20, 2003, 01:22 PM
What Kaylee said.

My little brother made a significant effort at it, 7 years ago. Knowing his life from day 1 to the end, I can comprehend his action. I do not agree with it, but I comprehend it.

Sent me in to a deep depression (that and 2 other events; divorce and crappy job). Friends and family were concerned for me, although I knew I had a tempoary problem to deal with and did not need a permanent solution.

Funny, thing is that GUNS helped a lot to get me out of the depression (best friend). I forgot how much I missed shooting.

March 20, 2003, 02:10 PM
It doesn't make it right perhaps, but to me anyhow it makes it a whole lot more understandable.

I can't argue with that. There's a difference between understanding and condoning.

I'm sincerely sorry about your brother. It hasn't hit me quite that close.

Missouri Mule
March 20, 2003, 02:12 PM
My father committed suicide with a handgun four years ago next Tuesday.

You are correct Suicide is never the answer.

The song says "Suicide is painless...".

Take my word for it that could not be further from the truth!

I own many guns and really enjoy shooting.
Funny though, since dad took his own life like he did I really don't enjoy hunting anymore. Not sure why...

I somehow thought my fathers suicide might change my views on guns and private ownership , etc... It didn't!!!!!!

I will never give up my guns or my freedom.

I am telling you guys, jokes about suicide are not funny!

All he said to me in his note was he is sorry.

Your family has to go on knowing what you did.

That should be reason enough to get help and to go on living.

I am not telling looking for sypmathy or anything else.

I know first hand how tough it is to deal with suicide in your family.

March 20, 2003, 02:52 PM
FWIW, i didnt think Yohan's comment was disrespectful or offensive. its a volatile subject matter, and each one of us seems to have a friend or family member that has attempted or been successful at taking their own life. it affects our life and outlook on death on levels we dont even begin to understand.

our conscious thought pattern tells us that we are hurt more by loosing the individual. we make ourselves out to be the victims and cry out in protest "How could they do this to me??"
isnt that also a selfish sentiment?

humans develop a dependancy on other humans to the point of it being a weakness. our individual activities can all be completed solo. its when our actions involve another party that outside help is advisable. but we then start relying on outside help for those individual activities, and i feel this is harmful. it destroys the concept of self-sufficiency. we forget how to rely on ourselves and call upon our own inner strengths. we therefore run the risk of weakening ourselves as individuals in efforts to pool our resources.

our subconscious thoughts still seem to point to divine retribution self-murder is supposed to bear. the christian idea that 'bad people' go to a fiery place of torment plagues many. feel free to PM me if you'd like to continue that part of the subject, as it will definitely go off topic and what i have to say about hellfire, condemnation, the soul will probably offend some and i'd not like to get on the mods bad side.

March 20, 2003, 04:39 PM
While I agree that suicide is often a selfish act, I will say that many times it is brought on by psychosis.
Even if a person seems to have the world on a string, they may be suffering from depression and every day is misery. For some of these people, suicide seems like the only relief.

March 20, 2003, 11:55 PM
(My Friend Marika responds)


I want you to share with your buddies my thoughts about what what happened to us last Sat. at the range - First and formost I so appreciate the feelings and thoughts sent to "us"about what happened. Let me assure all of you that the experience, even though it was something I NEVER expected or wanted to see, made me stronger and value the life we were given more precious. I have very mixed emotions.......... I am sad for the man, I am sad for you, Braz, because I know you were horrified that you took a lifelong friend to a place to learn about her gun and learn confidence and she witnessed a tragedy. That's O.K. - I believe everything happens for a reason - I learned a lot from that experience - how strong I truly am, how powerful our weapons are, and how they should be used. I will go back to the range with you because I choose to NOT be afraid but to be in control of my life and safety. That's what's its all about isn't it?

I agree with the response that "Suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problems" except in the case of terminal illness - and then I still have my doubts..........but that's my own feelings........I just wish we had a minute to talk with that man - maybe that's just my "maternal instinct".

Anyway, let me assure you that you did good by me and I have respect for you and all of us that own guns for the right reasons. I am a TEXAN after all !!

Stronger & Tougher - me

March 21, 2003, 12:53 AM
Thanks for letting us know how this affected you.
Your reply was first class.

March 21, 2003, 12:59 AM
Wow, I am really sorry to hear that happen and that you had to be there to experience that. :( I think with the world the way it is and the economy and everything to way it is, people are getting really depressed and more and more people consider suicide to escape from it all. It's really sad to say that there will always be people who would rather die than live...and half of those times they commit suicide for "silly" reasons. Like young people in high school & middle school and such even thinking about suicide because of things like boyfriends/girlfriends, grades, what another student said to them....things that they can live through and get better from.

I know I am pretty new on these boards but I would like to say that if anyone ever needs to talk, just drop me a note or something. Sometimes it's easier to talk to a stranger rather than friends & family.

ed dixon
March 21, 2003, 01:01 AM
Some of the generalizations about this are simply ludicrous. Tell the teenage girl I knew who attempted suicide and continued to self-mutilate that she was a detriment to this stellar gene pool made up of us tough guys. Maybe a few minutes of telling her how stupid and weak she was would erase the repeated rapes by her father that started when she was eight. Every day that this girl got up and tried to see beyond the horror she lived with took more force of will than a lot of "tough guys" muster in a lifetime. Not even close.

March 21, 2003, 01:52 AM
Quartus, some mentally ill people cannot simply choose not to be ill.

Do you really believe that any other organ of the body can be deformed or otherwise malfunctioning, but not the brain?

Would you tell a very retarded person that they would be smart enough to survive on their own if they didn't choose to be stupid?

March 21, 2003, 12:13 PM
Apples and oranges, TOR. We aren't talking about the same thing.


March 21, 2003, 12:24 PM
quartus, you are labeling all who commit suicide as being fully responsible for their actions. being in full command of all their faculties and making the conscious decision to end their life.

that simply is incorrect. many people suffer from depression that is not caused by their own selfishness, but rather from chemical imbalances or even allergic reactions. they can't control their emotions. in most cases it is treatable with medications.

how many people that have chimed in on this thread are taking, or know someone who takes, antidepressants?

and like i said, for people to complain "what about me? why did so-and-so kill themselves and make my life miserable?" thats just as selfish an attitude as the person who made the conscious decision to end their life.

you should do some research on depression and the causes of it, quartus. you should also look deep within yourself and determine how much faith you have in what happens at death. i've found that everyone scared of dying or other people around them dying have little faith in their beliefs of what happens to the soul when the body dies, or if their even is a soul.

when you resolve in your heart what you have faith in about death, then it is no longer a scary prospect.

March 21, 2003, 01:39 PM
quartus, you are labeling all who commit suicide as being fully responsible for their actions

Show me where I said that, or get yourself over to the library and spend some time with a dictionary.

March 21, 2003, 01:45 PM
TOR, you are forgetting or ignoring the effect of the suicide on the people who love him or her. Or even the people who find the body. Suicides cause emotional damage and financial burdens to other people. Often those are the people that love them.

They end their own pain at the cost of inflicting a great deal of pain on others.

That's selfish.

And one of the reasons we have seen a rise in suicide in this country is this coddling attitude that excuses the selfishness.

And unlike the paraplegic, they have a choice.

saying suicide victims had a 'choice' is effectively saying they are operating on all cylinders.

edit - perhaps you'd like me to fetch you a thesaurus while i'm at the library so you can rephrase that last sentence of yours i put in bold?

March 21, 2003, 01:57 PM
:rolleyes: TOR was comparing a paraplegic to a suicide. The person who commits suicide has a choice. They are NOT helpless prisoners of their circumstances, and the comparison between the two is ridiculous. More than that, it is an insult to paraplegics.

Even if a person's mind is not operating correctly, they still make a choice. Just like they choose to get up in the morning, eat, go places, whatever. Whether they are fully responsible is another matter. But they still make a choice.

And it is a selfish choice.

March 21, 2003, 02:03 PM
then why do some who commit murder plead 'insanity'? if they really are making 'conscious choices' there would be no such thing as pleading 'insanity'. its not saying that the person isnt accountable for their actions, but its handled in a different light.

those who have medical conditions that alter their emotions are in a way, handicapped by them. their abilities are diminished.

its as if you feel that other people 'owe' it to their friends/family to stay alive. do you also blame it on the person if they die of natural causes? that creates emotional hardship as well, doesnt it? but the person is just as dead from natural causes than from unnatural.

March 21, 2003, 02:25 PM
then why do some who commit murder plead 'insanity'?

Because our stupid society has deciced that someone who has a mental problem should somehow be excused for murder. It's still murder.

its as if you feel that other people 'owe' it to their friends/family to stay alive.

Tell it to the parents of a friend of mine who blew his head all over their garage with a 12 gauge.

Tell it to my friend Art who found his twin brother 3 days after he put the rifle to his head.

Tell it to anyone who has found a loved one dead by their own hand.

do you also blame it on the person if they die of natural causes? that creates emotional hardship as well, doesnt it?

Yes, but not usually as much. And more to the point, it's not a choice.

Suicide is always a choice.

March 21, 2003, 02:32 PM
see, now this is interesting, quartus. both you and i have had friends and/or family who ended their own life, and yet we have two entirely different opinions of it. we both have unique ideas about suicide and whether or not the suffering the victim is going through while alive is greater than the suffering the relatives/friends of the victim would undergo.

March 21, 2003, 03:05 PM
whether or not the suffering the victim is going through while alive is greater than the suffering the relatives/friends of the victim would undergo.

I have made no comment on that as far as I recall. Would you care to tell me what my opinion of that is?

March 21, 2003, 03:17 PM
well when you say that suicide is a selfish choice, and that the person contemplating it is not considering the feelings of friends/family, you seem to insinuate that the "choice" is poorly made. that it is never the answer. well like i was saying to Yohan, that depends on what the question is.

the fact of the matter is, you, nor i, nor anyone else can say what is going on inside a persons head when they check themselves out. did they just not care about what happens emotionally to their loved ones? did they just want to end their own personal hell?

your sentiments are in fact saying that the individuals feelings and emotions are less important than their family and friends feelings and emotions. how do you know that? you've experienced the loss of friends, do you really think that had their suicide been prevented, they would have opened their eyes, embraced their 'savior', and changed their outlook on life?
not everyone wants to be saved. not everyone wants to remain on this plane of existance. not everyone abides by yours, nor mine, opinions/beliefs about life/death.

edit - if i misread your sentiments or mis interpreted what you have been saying, i apologize. i call it like i see it. and i should also admit that my eyesight is not perfect, either.

March 21, 2003, 03:25 PM
actually, it's in neighboring Aurora, where I shoot from time to time. They've had at least two, maybe three suicides in the past five to six years. Very sad.

I'm sorry for you and your friend to have been there when it occurred.

March 21, 2003, 05:07 PM
'spiff, you need to look up the word, "assume".

Travis McGee
March 21, 2003, 05:09 PM
Damn.... just damn.

March 21, 2003, 05:12 PM
well gee quartus...what else are we to 'assume' about your statements? you have vehemently insisted that 'suicide is a selfish choice'. you havent allowed for any extenuating circumstances. you havent conceded that medical conditions may could ones judgement.

tell me what i have assumed incorrectly?

Gray Peterson
March 22, 2003, 05:42 AM
This has happened too many times.

In fact, it occured twice at the Sports Shooters, Inc Range in Tampa, FL. On both occasions, the families sued the firing range, saying they shouldn't be renting guns to people who seem suicidal.

Evidence was that there was no outward evidence of such, and the cases got thrown out, but not before costing the range a lot of money in attorney's fees, and Florida is not a loser pays state.

Messed up.

March 23, 2003, 07:49 AM

You said that you watched the suicide on video tape. Why did you have to watch it? So sad. And do all ranges video you while you shoot?


Quintin Likely
March 23, 2003, 09:49 AM
My .02:

A horrifying thing to experience for sure. :( I've had friends who've tried suicide, some successfully, some not so. *My* point of view...I cherish every minute of my life, no matter how rough the goings are or aren't. There have been days when I've been in the pits, things just aren't going my way, that's life. Life is a challenge, the idea is to overcome those obstacles and live life as you want to live it.

I can't really judge people who have committed suicide...I haven't walked in their shoes or experienced what they've experienced. I know what it can do to their friends and loved ones though, and its just not right. There's always another answer.

(On a side note: I haven't been here that long, but there's a lot of good folk on this board; count me in if anyone ever needed someone just to sit down and listen.)

March 23, 2003, 10:59 AM
A high school friend of mine killed herself a couple years back when we were living up in Seattle.

Two days before the fatal event, she came to a party I hosted. At 3AM, when everything was wrapping up, I exited my hallway bathroom, ready for bed... she confronted me outside the door, and said, "I just wanted to let you know that I wrote a book and you are in it", she was smiling.

I told her I was flattered, and asked for more information, she said it was a story about her life, and I had been her first 'crush' in 3rd grade. I thanked her for telling me that, and we hugged and said goodnight. The next day, we all had breakfast together... everything was normal.

One day later, I realized that she was saying goodbye to me that night. It was completely premeditated and she gave no outward signs to anyone that there was anything wrong. Unlike many women, she chose to use a gun, which indicated that this wasn't a 'cry for help', she wanted a final release from her suffering.

After the event, I learned that she was in treatment at the time for severe depression - I never knew. Her family never told anyone (can't see why they would) and she never told me. I privately asked myself why someone who was depressed would move to SEATTLE of all places, but that's besides the point.

I just wanted to post this and remind everyone how insidious mental health issues can be. What may appear calm on the surface may actually be a whirling vortex underneath.

Take the time to really get to know your friends and find out how they are doing. Their lives may depend on it.

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