[cropcirclewalker]

So, I just got a chrony a few weeks ago. I have been clocking some of my standardly reloaded rounds and ....... What? The velocities exceed what some of my books have stated to be the max. velocity for some of the .38 loads.

I can't figure the pressures, since I don't have the equip.

I have noted that pointing the muzzle up, thumping the handle a few times, bringing the barrell down carefully and firing can have a velocity difference from pointing the muzzle down, thumping the handle a few times and bringing the barrell up carefully and firing can have a difference of 150 fps on average.

None of my velocities exceed the +p ranges.........

Now is the question.....

My S&W Mod 10 made in the mid 60's...Will it handle a +P load? How do I find out? How about my Colt Diamondback?

Where do they list which shootin' irons will handle the +P loads?

Just askin.

[Bullet]

Best way to find out is ask the manufacture.

[cropcirclewalker]

Hi, Ho, Mr. Bullet.

Thanks for the advice. So I googled Colt Diamondback and there was a description indicating that every one of them was qualified for +p.

Then I googled Smith & Wesson FAQ and found where all S&W revolvers made after 1958 (and with their model no stamped inside the yoke, when you pop out the cylinder) is further acceptible for +p.

Smith says not to use +P+.

So simple.

:)

[Peter M. Eick]

My 2 different Colt manuals say that not more then 1500 (first manual) and 3000 (2nd manual) rounds of plus P ammo before shipping back to the factory for "inspection" (read replace frame in most cases, which is no longer made).

I will not put +p in my diamondback. Just standard loads. By the way, have you priced out a replacement diamondback recently? Not cheap....

[The Bushmaster]

I have 3 Smith & Wessons Model 10s. Two with 4" barrel and one with 2" barrel. I have been shooting +P loads in them for about 20 years without a problem. All three are still tight and in very good condition. As much as I like Colt. Their revolvers tend to be a little weak framed for some reason. The Smith's are Mod 10-9, 10-9 and 10-5. The two 4" barreled pieces are Royal Hong Kong Police returns.

[P95Carry]

I have noted that pointing the muzzle up, thumping the handle a few times, bringing the barrell down carefully and firing can have a velocity difference from pointing the muzzle down, thumping the handle a few times and bringing the barrell up carefully and firing can have a difference of 150 fps on average. Probably the classic example of powder position - as these loads have a small charge - lots of case free space. Usually it is reckoned that when powder sitting on primer - better fps will be measured - conversely, when powder all around bullet base. I would have thought average spread maybe no worse than 75 fps .. 150 sounds pretty high.

[cropcirclewalker]

Tomorrow when the missus goes galavanting, I have prepared some loads.

(18) 158 gr LRN (Lyman 358311) with 6.0 gr Bluedot.
6 I will thump the butt with the barrell pointing up, 6 I will thump with the barrell pointing down....and 6 I have specially prepared with dacron wadding, no thumping.

(18) 158 gr LRN (Lyman 358311) with 6.5 gr Bluedot.
6 I will thump the butt with the barrell pointing up, 6 I will thump with the barrell pointing down....and 6 I have specially prepared with dacron wadding, no thumping.

I will shoot these bullets out of my Smith Mod 28 ("Highway Patrolman" .357 mag 6" barrell) through my chrony off a rest at a target 10 yds away. I will precisely note the location and speed of each.

It is my preconception that the fastest will be the wadded, the slowest will be the down barrell thumped and the middle will be the up barrell thumped.

I hope that the most consistant velocities will be the wadded. I further hope that the smallest groups will be the wadded. I further further hope that the wadding doesn't blow away my chronograph. Wadding may be OK, but it is a PITA when handloading.

If there appears to be any interest, I can post my results. :scrutiny:

P.S. I like blue dot. My model 10 has a 6" barrell. Before I got my chrony I loaded hundreds of rounds with it and it has been my experience that it is the most consistant accuracy wise. I cast my own bullets.

Now I see that depending on the previous orientation of the gun, sometimes I am shooting bullets in excess of 1000 fps. Not that good in .38 spl with lead. Especially when I am just trying to work up some target loads.

Hey, maybe my chronograph is busted. :confused:

[griz]

Put me down on the "wants to hear how it goes" list.

[cropcirclewalker]

OK.

I will list it like this; charge, thump (TU=Thump up, TD = Thump down, WD=Dacron wadding), avg velocity, standard deviation, group size, corrected group size (I allow for a flyer and through out the flyer).

ie.
6.0 TU 656 25.25 1.500 1.250 comment
6 grains, barrell thumped up, velocity 656, std deviation 25.25, group 1.5, lose flyer = 1.25. OK stand by to copy.

5.5 WD 775 35.40 1.641 1.352 lowest 729 hi 841 (12 rds, lose 2 flyers)
6.0 TD 656 17.22 1.825 1.405 lowest sd, no velocity over 700
6.0 TU 805 52.16 1.930 1.318 lo vel 745 hi 907
6.0 WD 823 27.68 0.888 0.476 low 784 hi 864
6.5 TD 729 29.32 1.063 0.929 low 697 hi 786
6.5 TU 908 47.47 1.252 0.850 lo 845 hi 970
6.5 WD 891 43.13 1.564 0.868 low 851 hi 954

This is a quandary. My old Lyman handloading book says starting load is 5.9 grains bluedot with the 358311 should give 673 fps out of a 4" barrell. So, OK, thumped down, like carrying in a holster, but what If I thump the barrell up? 907 fps?

They say max load is 7.8 grains for 919 fps I loaded 7.7, thumped up and got an average outa 6 rounds of 1024 fps. Thumped down was 870.

Looks like I will go down to 5.0 grains and duplicate.

This could be bad. I may have to start over and do bullseye.

[griz]

I'm glad to see that some folks are getting results similar to mine. I was surprized to see the differences so high for up-down powder. I saw as much as 250 FPS on a very lightly loaded 125 grain lead bullet. Although your test shows the opposite, I found in general that the heavier the charge the less the difference. Heavier bullets also helped. The better loads are much better, more like 50 FPS or less.

It seems to depend very much on the powder. I figured the less dense powders would be best since they leave less space, but there seems to be no correlation when tested. So far AA #2 has the had the least difference, at least with normal velocity 158 grain loads. However, I have no idea why. Maybe because it's spherical?

For my tests I started comparing down to level, since in real life I almost never hold the gun up.

[cropcirclewalker]

Today I am out on my slab (out the basement door where I do my shooting) doing a chore for the missus. I look down into a white dog bowl and there is a bunch of what appears to be bluedot. This dogbowl was about 20 feet down range from where I set up my sawhorse upon which to rest.

I look around on other surfaces. Doghouse roof, bench, slab.........it's everywhere.

I dump the powder out of the dogbowl carefully into a little metal saucer, tilt the saucer so that all the powder collects in one area, touch it with a match and.....Yes, it is unburned powder. I even see little pieces in the chrony.

I propose that the down thumped rounds are blowing unburnt powder out the barrell. The upthumped and wadded charges are more consistantly high although the standard deviation is higher in the upthumped so I must conclude that the upthumped and wadded rounds are burning more powder. Wadding is a PITA.

I must now create a test chamber, like a big cardboard box, smooth inside, with like a 3" hole in the back side. I will shoot upthumped, downthumped and wadded rounds from like 10 feet away through the chrony and into the big opening in the box, and out through the little hole. That should trap any unburnt powder and or wadding. This will tell me if one or all of the loads are unburning.

It is starting to make me think that I need to find a new powder for my target loads. I have like 3 unopened containers. :(

[P95Carry]

CCW (hey - that's a good acronym from your syllable initials! ;) )

Just thinking on powders - and Blue Dot.

I cannot really see Blue Dot being a suitable powder for target loads, without getting all the unburned such as you describe. It is not per se a true magnum powder compared with say, 2400 but is IMO too slow for lighter loads. It will prove useful for let's say - +P+ category up to ''light'' magnum - and I have used it to good effect - still a tad messy tho even then.

It seems to be one of these powders that likes to be in a fairly full case - not too much space left and enough crimp to help get good ignition. The smaller charge does not seem to have enough time to light up before pressure has gotten high enough to get bullet on the way.

I do think you want a faster powder for this loading - such as Bullseye, VVN310, or similar ones at fast end of burn-rate list. Oh and to add - I think you'd find that a bullseye type powder load would produce a much lower difference in fps between powder up and powder down. Much more like the 75 fps type of region.

My 2c.

[Bullet]

Sounds like Blue Dot is to slow. You might try TITEGROUP, supposedly powder position doesn't have much effect with TITEGROUP.

[fecmech]

Try the Lyman load of 4.2 Bullseye behind your 358311, I 've used thousands of them behind a Hensley/Gibbs 158 rn. It is a tack driver out of my 6" K-38 and Ruger gp 100 6". I don't do the thump up/down thing but guns are loaded pointing down and then raised and fired over the chrono. My results for a recent 12 shot string out of the K38----873-hi, 847-lo, es-26, sd-11, avg--858.
Out of the Ruger 889hi,871lo, 18 es, sd-6 avg.882. Both guns are able to stay well inside the 10 ring with this load at 50 yds on a 50 yd bullseye target( I am not so able!) nick

[P95Carry]

Try the Lyman load of 4.2 Bullseye behind your 358311, I 've used thousands of them behind a Hensley/Gibbs 158 rn.4.2 seems very high to me for a ''target'' load!!! Sounds high even for a 125 grain pill!!

I peeked at Lyman #47 and cannot see this.

My way old interpretation of a 158 target load with Bullseye is around 2.7 - 2.8, tho max was I thought somewhere up at 3.2 or so. Anyways - have to query this for safety reasons.

Did you mean actually 4.2 - or was that meant to be 3.2?

[Bullet]

Here are some links for 38’s -

http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=pistolrevolver&step=2&bulletID=41&cartridgeID=1017&caliber=%2E38&cartridgedescr=Special&bulletdescr=158%20LSWC

http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=pistolrevolver&step=2&bulletID=47&cartridgeID=1018&caliber=%2E38&cartridgedescr=Special%20%2BP&bulletdescr=158%20LSWC

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/spc38spe.php

[P95Carry]

Hmmm, well - 3.6 and 3.8 is ''up there'' I'd have thought - certainly not comfy target loads. So my 3.2 was thusly a tad whimpy but - still find 4.2 worrysome!

[fecmech]

4.2 is a max load in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for 358311 and extreamly accurate. It is the standard load I use in my K38 and have put literally thousands of them thru the gun. Lyman lists 4.2@16200 cup and 4.5 as +P @ 18500cup. Nick

[P95Carry]

OK Nick - thx - forgive seeming paranoia but I have this sorta safety section that rings bells. Often tho it is unnecessary!

No offence intended. :)

[Bullet]

With all the different powders, bullets, OAL’s and guns sometimes it seems like a lot. Some list CUP other PSI. Different bearing surfaces, different bullet weights, different barrel lengths, cases, primers, I guess this is part of what makes reloading fun.

[fecmech]

P95--None taken--When I first got that manual years ago I was somewhat suprised at the Bullseye data myself but have been using it since then as my standard .38 load and am very happy with it. The same manual also lists 4.9/231 with that bullet which is about 30fps faster than the Bullseye but just a hair less accurate out of my gun, either one are excellent, uniform loads. Nick