Gas masks for survival

[GRB]

I hope this thread will be acceptable, it is not about firearms strategies and tactics per se but, it will be about strategies and tactics (more so about equipment) that may keep you alive long enough in order to use your firearms.

I am interested to find out some feedback about gas masks. Right now I am considering buying Technopro's SGE 150 or SGE 400 or 400/3 gas masks. My only concern about these is as to whether or not they are easy to breath through as compared to other gas masks such as those made by Scott such as the Promask or M95 or those made by MSA.

I want these so as to be able to remain alive in order to evacuate an area that may have come under chemical or biologial attack, or one that may have been attacked by a dirty bomb and have residual radiation. Tha would be their primary purpose. Of course staying alive would also mean being able to fight with whaever weapons were at hand should it come to that, one reason I ike the full face visor instead of the military style with two eye holes.

I am leaning toward either the Tecnopro SGE 150 or 400. Anyone have any experience with these under actual field use conditions or, even just with trying them on and breathing through them to get the feel of them?

all the best,
Glenn B

ps: how about a survival gear forum??????

[45Badger]

Step one, move off the friggin' island! :cool:

If any of the bad things you mention happen in NYC, LI is toast. Even if you are unharmed, armed to the teeth, and have the mother of all pick up trucks, what's gonna happen to the LIE? The mother of all traffic jams!

[GRB]

Moving away from home and career is not as easily done as it is easily said. I would prefer to evacuate my family if need be but, if we cannot leave then I choose to stand my ground and if necessary to fight - even if it means protecting some libs while I am at it. When I retire sometime in the next 2 or 3 years, then I will move away to greener glens filled with the songs of forest birds and the sounds of a babbling brook that is filled with trout. For now here I am stuck.

Even if I could move away now, I would prefer to be prepared if I could afford it - no matter where I would live. Nowhere is immune from atatck or catastrophic accident. I sure cannot recall the last checmical plant to blow up in the NYC or LI areas, but I'll bet some of the guys from more rurral areas can tell of one that happened recently kind of close to home. So I would still like some feedback on the gas masks please.

All the best,
Glenn B

[The_Antibubba]

Glenn,

Equipment is good, but your first order of business is an exit strategy. I think your best plan might be to avoid the expressway and get to the coast-a sea escape might be better-do you or a friend have a boat?

Second, with a chemical and some biological attacks, you'll need more than just a mask-you'll need whole-body protection. You mention your family. Are your children old enough to wear protective gear? For a chem/bio attack, given the weather patterns of LI, you might be better sheltering in place; there are steps you can take to harden your home.

If you do get a mask, look at the Draeger line. They are the best.

[Horsesense]

About two years ago a factory, about five miles from my place of work had a fire and they announced that there was a cloud of cyanide gas and mandatory evacuation "being considered".

I went outside and determined that we were up wind from the factory (otherwise I would have bugged out ASAP) and went back in and evacuated my people.

Within fifteen minutes you couldn't have gotten out of town (three miles across) on a motorcycle and I was on my way to the Rail Road Tracks, the only way out of town, which nobody but me had thought of but I'm sure others would have followed, when word came over the radio that there was no poison gas and the evacuation had been canceled.

I would have given $1000 for a mask that day.

[Malamute]

Check the data on filter life in different environments of the mask you choose. With no extra filters, and a limited life per cartridge, you could be handicapping yourself if it turns into a longer term situation. Some filters are only rated for 4 to 8 hours depending on the environment.

[cxm]

It is hard to say just how easy breathing is with a particular mask. Effective filters by their nature restrict air flow, and thus too easy is probably not a good evaluation standard.

Years ago at we were marching and didn't know NBC training was scheduled in route. Now, July in Georgia is HOT... and we had discovered removing the exhaust diaphram from our protective masks made breathing a LOT easier... As we marched thru the piney woods instructors started throwing tear gass all over the place while yelling GAS, GAS, Gas... at which time we pulled our masks out of their carriers... out came the masks with dry sox, candy, gum and cigarettes flying out along with them (the mask carriers were great places to keep stuff dry.)

THEN the truth came to us... nearly all of us had removed the exhaust diaphrams from the masks... followed by coughing, tears and burning. We were absolutely wiped out... interestingly enough, nothing was said to us by our tac officers following the debacle.

Anyway, I learned to not mind resistance to breathing...

The Army masks work well... and the double eye piece masks are IMHO easier to shoot while wearing than the bubble masks because you can get down on your rifle and aim... a point to consider.

One thing sure... masks are worth having... one for each family member.

FWIW

Chuck

[Joejojoba111]

I don't think masks are rated against nuclear threats.

If there's a chemical attack all you need is a heavy coat and your mask, point is to keep the stuff off your skin and out of eyes and lungs.

I think proper decontamination procedures are important too, though.

[MikeIsaj]

Glenn,

MSA makes a system using their Firehawk mask with adapters and filters. I bought them for the prison I work at because they are easy to don, comfortable and have a full view face that sits close to your face. The result is you can fire a rifle while wearing it. It also can quickly be converted from gas mask to SCBA use while wearing it. Another nice thing about MSA is their medium mask seems to fit more face shapes than the others I looked at.

I do think you need to rethink your strategy and the limitations of masks. Depending on the agent used the life of a filter may range from hours to minutes. I was taught in NBC classes that the first thing you do is don your mask. The second thing you do is leave the area. Even if you continue fighting, your objective changes to a green zone.

Are you going to keep this mask in a carrier on your person at all times? If you need it, you have the time you can hold your breath to get to it, don and clear. This is a level of readiness most people aren't willing to assume.

Hope this helps.

[Jeff White]

Mike makes a good point. It's a lot of work maintaining some form of readiness for an NBC attack. The mask sitting on top of your bug-out bag isn't going to do anyone any good if you're 3 miles away from your kit when the incident goes down.

Standard in the military is 9 seconds to don and clear the mask, and additional 6 seconds to get the hood strapped in place. The problem in a civilain situation is that DHS doesn't set the MOPP (Mission Oriented Protective Posture) for major urban areas (or any areas for that matter) on a daily basis based on the threat.

This would require you and your family to carry protective equipment with you all the time. Then there is the problem of recognizing when an attack is in progress. There are no alarms and even if there were, I don't think the political leadership could be trusted to recognize an attack for what it was and to issue a warning (that would be sure cause a panic) in a timely manner, if at all.

I like the MSA masks. Although I prefer the military eye pieces over the full face sheild for shooting.

Jeff

[LiquidTension]

Are there any masks that will save us bearded folks?

[Jeff White]

LiquidTension asked;
Are there any masks that will save us bearded folks?

Not that I'm aware of. Perhaps an SCBA type that maintained positive pressure inside the mask would work, but that would greatly reduce the the amount of useable air you could carry. You'd most likely have contamination in your beard the you'd inhale as soon as you took the mask off.

Glenn B. We talk about survival gear here in S&T. We've kicked the idea of a seperate forum around for a while but it just doesn't fit with THR's primary mission.

Jeff

[lbmii]

I wear similar types of masks on a weekly basis. You must be clean-shaven so keep a cheapy travel shaving kit with the mask. They do inhibit breathing a bit but not too bad. The Scott brand is good but that top strap will pull your hair out. I would go with Scott because replacement filters should be available locally most anywhere.

You need to pick out the right type of filters. I would go with a combination/dual element filter that blocks particulates and vapors as well as chlorine, ammonia and other gases. I would say that a massive chlorine or ammonia leak from a sabotaged freight train would be the most likely thing to happen. Also a dirty bomb of blown up radioactive materials from sources such as medical equipment and fire alarms is possible.

A dual element filter should help for any of the above scenarios. You need to carry extra filters.

[Azrael256]

Are there any masks that will save us bearded folks? Yes and no. A "mask" will not, as hair prevents a good seal. This is high up on the list of reasons why soldiers are always clean shaven. A sealed helmet, however, will protect you nicely. They are usually part of an environment suit. Go rent "Outbreak" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Chem suits are a must, if you're that concerned. U.S. or Israeli army surplus gear will run $30-50 a suit. Decon stuff isn't expensive, either. You can get the decon absorbent powder stuff for $20 a bottle or so. There is also an iodine product that you will want for "dirty bombs." It is supposed to wash out the radioactive junk in your thyroid gland.

That said, all of this stuff is designed to give you time to evacuate. For long-term exposure, such as decontamination work, you'll need much more expensive equipment.

[Malamute]

I have had questions about beards also. I know that a beard compromises the masks efficiency, but in testing the mask (Israeli) I get no apparent leakage. I keep my beard trimmed fairly short. However, I'm considering keeping a small jar of vaseline in my bag, thinking it will be a fast way to help seal the facial hair. Anyone know about that?

I'm aware of the possibilty of a terrorist attack, but consider a train or semi-truck chemical or corrosive spill or other accidental release to be more likely.

[MikeIsaj]

Malamute,

Vaseline will help but does not completly seal. You really need to be clean shaven for a mask to protect you from an NBC attack. An SCBA will protect you with a beard because the positive pressure inside the mask will prevent any penetration of outside contaminants. You don't have this with a filtered system. A supplier of respirators and SCBA can do a fit test on you and your mask to determine if it is sealing around your beard. You put the mask on and then a hood over that. They spray a mist of a very bitter vapor in the hood. You then do a series of exercises and movements to test the seal. Believe me, if the seal leaks you will know.

[Malamute]

Thanks for the comments. I figured it would be a help in a fast response, where there may not be time to shave(I greatly dislike shaving in general, which is why I have a beard).

When I bought my mask, I tried on many that were there and chose one that gave me a good seal. Maybe not perfect, but I could detect no leakage when testing. There was a very noticable difference in maskes, they looked the same, but I found two that did not leak on me.

I mainly consider my mask as being able to buy me time enough to exit the immediate area.

[cracked butt]

I have a differing opinion altogether. Unless you carry the mask and a chemical suit with you everywhere you go, it probably won't do you a damn bit of good. Most of the nerve agents can kill you on skin contact alone, so unless you have your chemical suit on before an attack, you are pretty much screwed. Unless you are in a relatively small area where the nerve agent is in high enough concentrations to kill a human, a respirator doesn't do much good anyway. With biological agents being for the most part, pretty much ineffective weapons, a mask might give you some advantage provided that you have a praticulate filter installed.



Other considerations- chemical suits are hot. I've worn saranex, tyvek, and heavy Level A suits. all are hot, but the ones that give the best protection are very hot to wear. People who need to suit up for hours at a time usually wear a vest filled with freezer gel to keep from overheating. Filter cartridges- some may last several hours, others might saturate after several minutes depending on the size, type, and concentration of pollutants in the air. You must have the correct cartridge for the situation at hand in order to protect yourself.

Gloves- A good pair of heavy chemical resistant gloves or three are just as important as a respirator. Many of the nerve agents condense on the surface of things and are absorbed through the skin.

Shaving- you need to be clean shaven. Your mask might not leak when you are sitting still, but if you start moving around or turning your head, they will leak if you are not clean shaven.
There are respirators that can be used with a beard, but they are heavy, bulky, forced air units.

Barrier creams are good to have- these are usually made of silicone which you rub on to exposed skin to seal it to prevent or slow chemical absorbsion. Skin is a lot more porous than people think and a lot of chemicals will absorb directly through your skin and into your blood stream.

Fit testing- in order for a mask to be effective you need to have it fit tested to your face- masks aren't a one-size-fits-all proposition unless they are supplied/pressurized air masks where the fit isn't quite as critical.


If you are worried about chemical attacks, check your local health clinics and hospitals to find if they have obidoxime/atropine injectors on hand. This is where you want to go in the case of a chemical attack.


I'm not an expert, but i do work with highly toxic (some are far more toxic than the sarin that people worry about) chemicals and wear a respirator everyday.

[hso]

It is highly improbable that you would ever have an incident that you could use this equipment in.

It is even more improbable that should you need it that you'd ever get the opportunity to use it. You would essentially have to have it at hand 24/7 AND be fully aware in the event of a problem.

If you honestly believe that you will need this equipment then you should get the training needed to properly select and use it.

Find an occupational medicine office and have them conduct a physical and find out if wearing a negative pressure respirator will kill you due to the cardiovascular load it puts on you. Find a Respirator Selection and Use course and sign up. Find a 40 hour HAZWOPER course and sign up. Put forth the effort to become trained in what it does and does not do. You can not learn this "on the net". You must learn and practice donning the equipment. If you don't have quantitative measuring equipment that can tell you how effective you've been in donning and using the equipment then you have to practice using irritant smoke so that you have some confidence that you've donned the gear correctly.

If you don't know what the hazard is then you can't select the filter to protect against it. Do you need to protect against Chlorine, Volatile Organics, Particulates, Acid Gas, Radioactive Particles, Radioactive Gas? What? Do you select a filter that can handle almost all of them? If you do these filters are very difficult to move air though. The mask isn't the issue as much as the system as a whole. Does it take only a single cartrdge or two? If two you'll never be able to shoulder a weapon properly, but you'll have twice the filter to move air through which means half the effort. Do you pick a PAPR, powered air purifiying respirator? This means that you have air pumped through the cartridges into the facepiece and don't have to deal with the cardiovascular burden of dragging each breath through the filter. Can you keep a fully charged battery pack for the PAPR with it all the time? What will you do when the battery runs down in 8 to 10 hours?

A respirator and filters are less of a magic talisman against danger than a gun is. They will do you no good if you do not understand the nature of the hazard, how to select the equipment, how to use the equipment, and what the limitations are.

There are very few industrial accidents in the U.S. that result in the release of toxics into communities. That's why you rarely hear of them. Rural or uban isn't a factor.

Cracked Butt is dead on target. KNOW the point sources that could provide the hazard. KNOW the wind direction. KNOW the evacuation routes that will take you out of the plume of the hazard as it is driven by the wind. KNOW these all the time. There will be no fighting in respirators for civilians. There will only be evacuation. Evacuation to a safe location followed by decontamination is the only reasonable course for most people.

For those of you interested in Negative Pressure Full Face Respirators you can wear with a beard...there aren't any. If you can not achieve a face seal you do not have an effective respiratory protective system. If you do not want to shave your only alternative is to spend the money on a helmet/hood PAPR system like these. http://tricon-env.com/3M_breathe_easy_10.htm

BTW HSO stands for Health And Safety Officer and I spend my days working out the best protection for the folks that work for my company for radiological, biological, and chemical hazards. I even get to use the equipment I recommend.

[c_yeager]

One thing to keep in mind with the full on NBC gear (respirators) is that anything with a high enough rating to be effective against modern chemical/biological weapons is going to be cumbersome enough that you arent going to be doing much bugging out at all. During those nationwide drills we did about a year back we had to rotate people out of the gear every couple of hours or risk them literally passing out from heat exaustion, and this is in Seattle, I cant imagine how much worse it would be if you were in NY and trying to make any headway.

Also everything has a fairly limited duration of protection and when it comes to movement you start to get diminishing returns pretty quickly. For example, lets say you are in a chemical attack and you had to move one mile to safety. Lets say that NBC gear set "A" provides protection for only one hour, but allows you to cover that mile within 45 minutes. Set "B" provides protection for 2 hours, but it takes you three hours to cover the needed distance. Set "B" going to be the better set ON PAPER, but its getting you killed in this situation.

You can pretty much forget about dealing with the nuclear threat in this manner. ANY exposed skin is going to be exposure to fall-out. This means full body coverage. And even then you will need to have your suit FULLY decontaminated BEFORE you can take it off (its covered with fallout particles, how do you take it off without touching it?). Considering the inevitable disaray following a nuclear attack on a city the size of NY you arent likely to find ANYONE who is in a position to provide you with this service. And if you do, they are probably going to be too busy either dying, or keeping other people from dying.

As HSO mentioned you need to know what your seeing in advance in order to select the proper configuration of equipment. In order to prepare for all possibilities you would have to have a variety of filters available, this is QUITE expensive. And none of them are 'easy' to breath through (even the PAPRs are a burdon). Companies that have such equipment on hand are required to have significant training in its use, and conduct regular inspections. This isnt just for paperwork, it is necessary to keep everything in working order.

[GRB]

I have to say I am really concerned by what seemingly are, in some manner or another, attempts to discourage the purchase, or doubting the effectiveness or necessity, of protective equipment.

Equipment is good, but your first order of business is an exit strategy. I think your best plan might be to avoid the expressway and get to the coast-a sea escape might be better-do you or a friend have a boat?

Yes I have a plan. Gasmasks are part of the plan if they are needed. I am not discussing my exit strategy with anyone, except those with whom I will exit the area if need be. Never know who may come looking. I do have one though it is my secret.

I do think you need to rethink your strategy and the limitations of masks. Depending on the agent used the life of a filter may range from hours to minutes. I was taught in NBC classes that the first thing you do is don your mask. The second thing you do is leave the area. Even if you continue fighting, your objective changes to a green zone.

I am a bit surprised that anyone thinks I would remain in an area where a chemical, biological or radiation threat existed. I never said or implied that such would be my top choice of options at all. I plainly stated that I would evacuate the area unless I could not do so. If I could not do so then I would remain and try to fight. I agree that evacuation would possibly be the prudent thing to do. Remember though that sometimes evacuation is just what the enemy is expecting and the evacuation routes are the true primary targets even if hit second. You really need to analyze the situation and then act accordingly – do not merely react and jump to your prearranged plan, because it is possible that plan will not be appropriate dependent on the situation at hand.

The thing is though that even with evacuation at the top of my list, leaving such an area would not be possible without first donning the proper equipment! So you see, having the proper equipment that would make evacuation possible in the first place would be a good idea. Therefore I am interested in finding gasmasks that are easier to breath through because of their construction. I already have one of my own from work. I need additional ones for the family and maybe a spare or two. I am seeking out ones that are easier to breath through. Yes there are ones wherein it is easier to breath regardless of which filter type is used. As far as filters go, I am not researching that subject. I know which filters I will be purchasing and; yes I will have spares for each gas mask. In the equipment line I will also be purchasing protective suits and gloves. I also already have those picked out. They will all be good, to the degree that can be expected, in case of Chemical, Biological, and radiation threats.

I am a little concerned that anyone would believe the following and, that no one seemed to correct this line of thought. I don't think masks are rated against nuclear threats. If there's a chemical attack all you need is a heavy coat and your mask, point is to keep the stuff off your skin and out of eyes and lungs. Yes there are masks/filters rated to help protect against the radiation from a nuclear attack, some protective suits will also do likewise. Of course this is within reason; I am not talking about being in the direct path of the blast of a nuclear bomb so that you will vaporize. As for donning a heavy coat and a gas mask to protect yourself, well I guess it is a sobering thought to realize that some people believe this and would tell others to do so. Most coats would be quite inappropriate to fend off chemical or biological agents. Of course a coat may help to some degree but will be nowhere nearly as effective as the proper protective garment. Better would be a protective garment manufactured and designed to give you the maximum protection from such agents while being worn in combination with a gas mask.

As for this: It is highly improbable that you would ever have an incident that you could use this equipment in. Yes it is not as probable as some other things but, it is much more probable than you may think. Certainly it is more probable than it was just a few years ago. The attitude expressed by the above quote makes me think of the Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared! It also makes me think of a pretty sad story of being ill prepared and the result was disastrous. Many years ago, a troop of Boy Scouts of America went for a hiking/camping trip in the mountains southeast of Tucson, AZ. I imagine it was to have been a wonderful couple of days in the mountains under blue skies and so on. They were led up the mountain by adult scout leaders. Everyone was prepared for a good time. The sad thing is that they did not follow there motto, they were not prepared for what was about to befall them. It started to snow. It came down and came down hard, came down fast, and came down a lot. By the time the rescue parties found them I believe most if not all were dead. Despite there motto of be prepared, they were ill prepared for a snowstorm in the warmer months in Arizona. Since I was on that same mountain, and read the sign that told this tale, I have decided to try to live up to the Boy Scout motto when I can. I prefer to be prepared.

As for being prepared 24/7, sometimes I am and sometimes I am not. I do have a gas mask, chem suit, gloves and so on within easy reach much of the time. I plan for my family to have the same, however; even if my family members decide to keep theirs in the cars or at home, at least the protection will be available then. That is better than never having it available. It will be their decision with my advice always to have it handy.

If you honestly believe that you will need this equipment then you should get the training needed to properly select and use it. I do agree this is intelligent. Training videos are available from many upscale gasmask producers as are detailed written instructions. Proper fit can also be tested for.

Find an occupational medicine office and have them conduct a physical and find out if wearing a negative pressure respirator will kill you due to the cardiovascular load it puts on you. Great idea and I mean it. Maybe you can convince the US Secret Service, The Federal Air Marshals and Immigration and Customs Enforcement of this. As for the regular Joe, sure it maybe a good idea. As for private industry, my bet is they only do it to cover their behinds in case of a lawsuit. Me personally, if I heard there had n=been some sort of NBC attack nearby upwind from me, I think I would rather chance it myself with no physical and put on the mask if the attack had been nearby. As I see it, better to put on the mask and take the chance of a health problem that is more likely to incapacitate me rather than one that is more likely to kill me. I will say though that my family and I have medical checkups as necessary, I have pretty decent health insurance You may be surprised as to for what I have been tested. I can assure you such would not be a problem for any of us. In fact I am the most out of shape, yet I have donned a gasmask more than once when required.

If you don't know what the hazard is then you can't select the filter to protect against it. Do you need to protect against Chlorine, Volatile Organics, Particulates, Acid Gas, Radioactive Particles, Radioactive Gas? What? Do you select a filter that can handle almost all of them? I realize the good intent of the above quote but, it is not sound tactically to pick and choose certain types of filters when the possible agent used in any attack could be anything from chemical, to biological to radiation. Yes, for this type of mask, one used primarily for a SHTF scenario so that you can evacuate – you choose the filter that protects from the most broad array of threats. This is why my question about the ease of breathing through certain types of masks was raised in the first place. Yes even using the same filter on a variety of masks, it is easier to breath through certain masks that are constructed to facilitate outward air flow and that control internal moisture well. If you as a Health and Safety officer are unaware of this, then please try more types of gas mask using a single type of filter. You will soon see what I mean. I have used the Israeli Gas mask as issued at work several years ago, it was pretty hard to breath inside of that piece of junk. With the one I have now, even with the same filters, is much easier to breath. I believe it may have to do with the valves that aloow you to breathe out.

A respirator and filters are less of a magic talisman against danger than a gun is. What a sad statement I see this to be and, what a sad assumption is implied in that statement. So you know of what you speak about respirators and such, that is fine. Yet to assume that others know nothing or think that that a gasmask is akin to some wonder charm is a sad state of affairs. I am not seeking a magic talisman, I was seeking knowledge of actual practical experience of the use of various gasmasks by others on these forums. This is one way to try and obtain as wide a spread of knowledge as possible - to reach out to allpotential sources of information. To imply I may have no training in gasmasks is also a mistake. I have been trained in their use several times over the years, probably not as much as you, but quite more than most people you will have met in your lifetime. As a matter of fact, when my office sought to purchase over 200 gas masks for my office, my superiors consulted me on the issue. I am not an expert by a long shot, but I sure got them steered in the right direction – not by voodoo or magic but by researching the matter. That is what I am doing now. To assume my research is limited to this forum or to the Internet – well let’s just say again that is simply assumption.

KNOW these all the time. As far as knowing wind direction and such, that is all well and fine so long as the wind does not change. Winds and air currents change frequently, that is why it may be best to don good protective equipment and then possibly evacuate an area that is the actual area of attack or adjacent to it. Remember you must evacuate only after assessing your situation. As to an attack, chances are that if any chemical or biological agents are released in an area they may be released from various points to effect a wider spread of destruction. This is a choice operating method of terrorists worldwide. First they attack once, then when people begin to evacuate they attack the evacuation path. In the event that we receive warning of a gas or dirty bomb attack, or chemical plant explosion, or radiation leak, within a mile of our location (further for the radiation leak), we would don equipment and evacuate. Sound crazy or paranoid to you, well so be it but I choose to be prepared instead of one of those in the hospital or morgue. I see thisn same attitude at work - the guys who go out into the field without guns or without loaded guns. Amazing but it hapens all the time. The rumor going round is that the ICE Assistant Special Agent In Cahrge who was recently killed by that escaped prisoner in Atlanta had nothing in the chamber when he tried to fire. Go figure. What a crying shame. I know for a fact he was not trained to go out with a weapon like that, one can only hope that his sad demise was not really due to such an oversight regarding preparedness.

As for this: There are very few industrial accidents in the U.S. that result in the release of toxics into communities. I can think of at least two or three times per year that toxins are released into the air in NY City just due to transformer fires or steam pipes bursting. Then again I can think of some fairly recent factories blowing up and releasing toxins and, I can also think of several freight trains derailing in the last couple of years whereby toxins were released into the air. These things are on the news fairly often. Yet, you can choose to say they are “very few”. There also have been some incidents of radiation being released into the air near power plants. I will say all it takes is once without protection. There are also few terrorist attacks, in this country, but my personal opinion is that another is coming fairly soon. I am in the business that deals with such, and I think it is prudent to prepare for the worst; take my opinion for what you want.

Finally as for those who say there will be no warning, are you kidding! While some may be the first to die and have no warning, there is a huge warning system in this country called television and radio. When a chemical plant goes, there are evacuations of areas downwind. If there was no time for warning there would be no one (or only wounded people and bodies) to evacuate. If you can evacuate such an area, I think it would be prudent in some cases to do so wearing a gasmask especially if the threat is close and the winds seem right. If a nuclear reactor goes critical - there will likely be evacuations and plenty of warnings. Chernobyl is a good example of why people living within 20 miles of nuclear reactors should have evacuation plans that include the use of protective equipment. As to terrorists, attacks meant to be simultaneous are often not timed properly and people in other locations can then be alerted to potential danger. This happened on 9/11 and fighter planes were deployed in an attempt to locate and shoot down the plane that was eventually brought down in the field in PA by paseengers and terrorists. Think about this one for a moment. Do you mean to tell me that if you had been in downtown Manhattan at the time of the 9/11 attacks on the WTC, it would have been a bad idea to don a gasmask until you evacuated the area. Tell that to the people who wished that had had one to don when the building collapsed and they inhaled all that they did. Tell that to the first responders who had none on when they attempted to find any survivors.

I am not saying that many of the ideas given are not good ones, especially as far as proper steps to take to assure getting a good set of equipment and knowing how to use it goes. I will say that to discourage preparation for well planned evacuation from critical areas (including use of emergency protective equipment for evacuation through or adjacent to a hot area) is, in my opinion, imprudent in light of terrorist tactics. Be prepared, to me it sounds pretty good.


All the best,
Glenn B

[Joejojoba111]

Umm, you realize that if you have something like a MOPP army suit, umm, unless you got it brand=new from the factory it's not much different from a heavy coat and a couple garbage bags.

IIRC they're good for 10 years unopened on the shelf, and something like 10 hours after exposed to air. After that they're just good work clothes. I got a whole package and it's great for work, good heavy work clothes, good rubber overshoes, good rubber gloves, gas-mask for painting and stuff, with a hood too, and the price was right. But I know it's not the real deal anymore.

I did order some filters for the gas-mask, they're the triangular ones that fit in the cheek-pouches the mask has, but I have no idea what they're protection aganist. Just better than nothing, and I also had an older gas mask from Canadian Army, and i used to use it for painting. It only had 1 filter but there was no problem breathing through it at all. Lol and I was worried about the paint so I bought 3 other filters (there were 3 types so I got one of each) in a hardware section and duc-taped them onto the mask's filter. AND IT STILL WAS EASY TO BREATH! I would work for hours, mixing resin, spraying primer, and the mask was great to me. It would be a hot sunny day in the middle of summer and the gas mask gave no problems. I'd take a break and go inside and when I'd come out again I'd smell the fumes from many feet away, but with the mask on not smell them! Great mask, If I ever find more filters I'll go back to it in a heartbeat.

One more thing, working on a car may be different from chem attack, but yea gloves are precious commodity, doubled up with 99c stretchy winter gloves underneath seemed to work the best.

Oh yea, and never underestimate the lowly garbage bag. They're good for so many things, you can keep chemicals off you, you can make water in the desert, hell you can even put things in them.

[NMshooter]

If you are going to get a mask, get one that has a drinking adapter.

Then get a couple canteens with NBC caps (has a one way valve in the top that you plug the mask adapter into) or an NBC rated Camelbak.

If you are going to be suited up for a long period a container for your urine inside the suit might be a good idea...

The other folks really aren't kidding about heat casualties, a 5 mile hike in full gear is more than I would care to attempt, but in a vehicle this would not be as important.

Spare filters are a must have, and should be kept with the mask.

The filter on the mask will eventually lose its effectiveness, and will have to be replaced.

There are options for infants too, if you have any.

You have lots and lots of research to do, some of the information can be found in various Army field manuals.

[benEzra]

A mask isn't necessary in most nuclear scenarios I can think of. Assuming an actual nuclear weapon, the main danger close by are blast (collapsing buildings close in, flying glass from blown-in windows further out) and ordinary radiant heat. As the bomb becomes larger, thermal effects begin to outdistance blast effects, but with a typical modern nuclear weapon (~500 kT) you're pretty much OK from either at five to seven miles from ground zero. DoD actually put out a neat DOS-based weapons effects calculator, but I don't remember the name (I downloaded it once, it's public domain).

Fallout is another danger to those downwind if the weapon was ground-burst, but inhalation is generally not what you'd be worrying about. The main danger from fallout is from the gamma emitters (you can avoid the alpha and beta emitters just by staying inside and keeping the doors and windows shut, but the gamma emitters would require an improvised fallout shelter or an exit from the affected area since a gamma emitter doesn't have to be in direct contact with you to irradiate you).

The threat of nuclear war is much, much lower than it was in the '60's and early '70's (and the effects of one would be much less, considering how much smaller warheads are now than then, and how much the total megatonnage has been reduced), but if you're really concerned about the N in NBC then check out a civil defense book produced by Oak Ridge Nat'l Laboratory back in the '70's or early '80's called Nuclear War Survival Skills (sorry, I don't have publication info b/c I don't own it, but I read it once). Might be a good read if you are concerned about nuclear terrorism and live downwind of a potential target, I suppose.

[MikeIsaj]

"As far as knowing wind direction and such, that is all well and fine so long as the wind does not change. Winds and air currents change frequently..."

Actually surface winds change frequently. Prevailing winds remain fairly constant. In the Northern Hemisphere, the winds are from the west and blowing in a east by northeast flow. You need to be aware of both. A rule of thumb is movement south, then west will give you the best chance of getting clear. If the incident is nearby and upwind, move perpendicular to the wind direction immediatly and then shift to a westward course once you are clear of the incident.

I think we can all agree that there is a lot to think about in this scenario. It's not as simple as getting a mask, and post 9-11 it's not unreasonable to have a plan (I don't think it was unreasonable before).

My family has a plan that includes rendesvous points outside the area with the idea that we will probably not be together when a decision is made. We also have an exit time not dependent on the civil authorities telling us when to go. By the time an evacuation is ordered, we should be long gone. Lots of other plans but as Glenn has said, that's best kept secret.

Thanks Glenn, for starting this thread. It's one of those that make you think.

[Horsesense]

What do y’all think about keeping one of the $20 surplus, with filter sealed in a can, in your car, home, work etc?

Five cheep masks could be better than one $100 mask????

Something else to think about: how are you going to keep the sheeple from trying to take your mask, when they see you breathing easy while they are panicked etc.?

The “bluff factor” could be worth far more than the protection, with an NBC suit… hint

[hso]

For everyone's information- (this will refer to negative pressure full-face respirators only and not get into the protective clothing issues)

You should get a quantitative fit for any full face respirator you intend to use for whatever reason. You can not know what the protective factor for the particular respirator you intend to use is if you do not do this. The protective factor is essentially how effective the respirator is at keeping the contaminants out of the air inside the facepiece (assuming you have the correct cartridge). PFs can go well into the 1,000s and 10s of thousands for a well fit full-face respirator and can be as low as 100 for a well fit half face. What this means is that a PF 10,000 only allows 1/10,000th of the contaminants to enter the facepiece by inleakage while a 100 allows 1/100th to enter. You should fit the specific facepiece you will be using since a medium MSA silicone will give a different protective factor than a hicar and a North different still. If you loose or gain weight they fit differently. Dentures in or out they fit differently. Anything that changes the shape of your face makes your facepiece fit differently.

Tightening the straps more doesn't always make it fit better.

Anything that gets between the seal and the skin prevents a good face seal and reduces the protective factor of the face piece. Glasses and beards are classic problems. If you want to use a respirator then shave so that no hair gets into the seal. If you wear glasses and can't do without them you can get lens kits to wear inside the facepiece. You may wear contacts inside the facepiece.

Pay the addtional $5-$15 for the nose cup. They help prevent fog-up.

You should get a physical for respirator use if you are overweight, smoke, have high blood pressure, any heart problems, subject to exercise asthma or heat stroke, etc. A heart attack or heat stroke brought on by using a respirator under stress is not just an inconvenience it can kill you. Here's a good questionaire for prospective respirator users. If you answer YES to the obvious questions you need to see an occupational physician before trying to wear a respirator. http://www.ehs.iupui.edu/ehs/questionaire.doc Consider a powered respirator if you have these problems.

Using the wrong cartridge for the hazard is almost as bad as not using anything and may actually be worse since it creates a false sense of safety.

The more hazards a given manufacturer's cartridge protects against the more difficult it is to breath through. A low breathing resistance p100 is relatively easy to breath through. A combo intended to protect against particulates, acid gas, organic vapors, and chlorine is much more difficult to pull air through. A single cartridge respirator is twice as difficult to breath through as a double cartridge equiped respirator. Look for "low breating resistance" in the cartridge information.

You can not use manufacturer A's cartridge on manufacturer B's respirator. They are intentionally designed that way. Industrial cartridges can not be switched around between manufacturers. If you can't get a low breathing resistance cartridge for the facepiece you own you can't use another manufacturer's low breating resistance cartridge on it. If you are using a US or NATO NBC mask you can use any 40 mm thread NBC cartridge for any NBC mask.

An NBC cartridge will not protect you from everything. It is intended to deal with chem/bio/rad and will not handle all the industrial chemical spill materials out there. No cartridge will protect you from everything. Know the hazard to select the cartridge. That said, the Draeger goes a long way toward being a "do-everything" cartridge. http://www.nbcgasmask.com/nbcfilters/drager.htm

Military surplus respirators were surplused for a reason. Cheap respirators are cheap for a reason. A product that won't protect you, but makes you think you are protected is worse than nothing. The least expensive respirator of any use you can purchase is a low maintenance type. You can get these for a little as $80-$90 http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=20349&cat_prefix=5WA, but most respirators cost $100-$200-$300 http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=29450&cat_prefix=5WA. NBC Cartridges run $35-$60 http://www.nbcgasmask.com/nbcfilters/index.htm. That being said, it looks like 3M was importing the Tecno-pro full face from Italy under their name for a little while and quit. It's a good mask for comfort and seal. It is set up with the 40mm NATO/US NBC thread only so you'd need an adaptor for industrial chemicals. Cartridges are ~$50 from lab safety. http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=6070&cat_prefix=5WA but I'd get the Draeger

I've used MSA Ultraview/twin (http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=1468&cat_prefix=5WA), North (http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=29491&cat_prefix=5WA), Survivair (http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=29556&cat_prefix=5WA) and 3M Low Maintenance (http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=1417&cat_prefix=5WA) negative pressure full face respirators and like the 3M very well. My preference is the 3M Breathe Easy PAPR Helmet system (of course). Continuous air feed filtered from a belt mount blower http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?SSSSSSAzK12S4vTSevTSSSTwI1V6666q- (what luxury).

For more information - http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?hhhhhhR59twhBLihVLihhIm0&TclHvPV-

[GRB]

HSO,

Do you have any knowledge of the effectiveness of the Scott filters -particularly the M95 and the newer NTC-1? As I understand the NTC-1 was designed to filter industrial gasses in addition to all known chemical and biological agents. They claim low breathing resistance as well.

As for the Draeger it can be had at a much less expensive price than from Lab Safety. We deal with Lab Safety in my office; they are pretty high priced and get away with it. I guess because they have some hard to obtain items and good service but, some of their inventory is available at reputable dealers and lower prices elsewhere. For instance, the Draeger filter can be had for under $33.00 at http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/filter-drager.htm. A $12 savings per filter adds up quickly when buying spares.


You can not use manufacturer A's cartridge on manufacturer B's respirator. They are intentionally designed that way. Industrial cartridges can not be switched around between manufacturers. If you can't get a low breathing resistance cartridge for the facepiece you own you can't use another manufacturer's low breating resistance cartridge on it. If you are using a US or NATO NBC mask you can use any 40 mm thread NBC cartridge for any NBC mask. This is one of the primary tactical reasons it is recommended that you purchase a NATO style mask that accepts threaded 40mm filters for survival in SHTF scenarios that may last for a while. The filters would be much more readily accesible than would specialty filters.

All the best,
Glenn B

[GRB]

Some warnings about bargains.... (http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/defective-masks.htm) This is a good page to read if you are interested in getting asurplus gasmask. Most of the ones available are useless pieces of junk and if you buy them and read the fine print you will see many are sold as novelties only.

[pete f]

All this is really good info but to simplify it down, you have to look at what you are willing to prepare for, NBC warfare? industrial accident? fire?
If you are looking at a bug out plan you have only a couple of road surface exits and a million waterborne ways off. because the terrorist is most likely going to have to do it on a good weather day because they will want the most people outside and unready for the attack you are giving the means to via boat in most cases.

as far as what cannister filters do what, you should stop in to your local industrial supply house and get a copy of the pamphlet fitler makers offer as a training aid to purchasers of safety equipment. There is no one shot kills all risks in the filter area, but you should be able to find something that will cover all of what you are likely to face, and remember that there are thousands of chemical spills every year and that makes it much more likely a container ship or a tanker car on the water front causes an accident than a terrorist strike. I use a couple of different maskes for my work, one is just a half mask and filter for certain volitile solvents i use and a full face mask for a lot more stuff we get into, both are made by 3M

you see them here just for illustration purposes.

http://www.lascentrum.com/doc/en/3m/3m+full+face+respirators

[Joejojoba111]

"You may wear contacts inside the facepiece."

I'm pretty, almost 100%, maybe 110% sure that's a big no-no.

[hso]

Joejojoba111,

"I'm pretty, almost 100%, maybe 110% sure that's a big no-no.", used to be the case, but not any more. If you're wearing a full-face respirator AND it's working properly your contacts are not going to be a problem. Using a lens kit inside the face piece is the traditional approach, but lens kits have come loose and there they are inside the facepiece with you with no way to put them back and both eyes out of focus. If a contact "slips" most folks can blink it back in place or get to the decon station on the other eye. Many companies still follow the old guidance of no contact, and it still is good guidance for welding/cutting operations with lots of UV, but NIOSH and OSHA no longer require you to use them in place of contacts. From the updated respiratory protection standard - "Because the final standard allows contact lenses to be worn, full facepiece respirators can be worn by persons needing corrective lenses; contact lenses obviously do not interfere with facepiece seal."

[hso]

I have never used either the NTC-1 or MPC filters. On paper the Scott NBC (http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/filter-scott.htm) looks better as far as range of coverage (NIOSH Approvals: AM/CD/CL/CN/CS/FM/HC/HF/MA/PH/SD/P100) than the NTC-1 (OV/AM/MA/CD/CL/FM/HC/HF/SD/HE
)

http://www.pro-am.com/Catalog/scott.asp

http://www.scottsafety.com/PDF/ENGL_ESITE/Pro2000%20Engl%20NETTI.pdf

http://www-nehc.med.navy.mil/ih/Respirator/ChangeSchedule.htm

You mentioned that you had a respirator from work. What type?

[GRB]

HSO,

Its a MSA Millenium, with their own brand of filters, I don't recall the filter model. I am going to be getting some spare Scott filters for use with it.

All the best,
Glenn B

[brickeyee]

There are simple filter masks rated for radiation protection. All you need is a decent HEPA rating to stop the particles.
Alphas and Betas are easily stopped by clothing and minimal shielding, but both pose a problem if inhaled, though this is more of a long term problem. If you are over 50 you will likely die of something else anyway before a radiation induced cancer would occur.

The idea of a ‘radiological weapon’ (radioactive material and a dispersion explosive) gets a lot of press, but it is not very likely to be anything more than a weapon of mass panic. The only people likely to receive a very heavy dose are the ones who are required to stay at the site – the fire and police. Everyone else can just leave the area.
Distance and time are the ways to reduce exposure. Distance away from the source (most particles are relatively short range) , and minimize the time you are exposed to the source (A 1 REM per hour source exposure for 2 minutes is only 33 mREM).

I routinely perform work at cyclotrons testing electronics for space use. ALARA – ‘As Low As Reasonably Achievable’ is how we operate.

[hso]

Brickeye,

It isn't "shine" from the radiation that would be the problem with a rad contaminant release. The problem would be inhalation of the radioactive particles. Those particles would sit in the lung emmiting radiation until the body either excreted them (if they were salts and soluable and not bone or fat stored) or the isotope decayed to a non radioactive form. Alpha and Beta radiation emiters are particularly hazardous inside the body because they would then be in intimate contact with tissue that would be subject to the ionizing radiation. If the "dirty bomb" just blew up and spread chunks of radioactive contaminated material around then the real hazard would depend upon the size of the particles of radioactive material and the activity of the isotope. Large non-inhalable particles would only be a hazard if they had been injected into nearby victems that were wounded by the blast. These could still be removed and the exposure would come to an end. If they were in small enough particles to be inhaled then they still might be too large to get deep into the lungs and pose a purmanent problem because you would probably expell most of them. The real problem occurs when respirable particles of an Alpha or Beta emitter are of a size to reach the bronchi and alveoli. If these are not soluble they will sit in the lung and damage the tissue with ionizing Alpha or Beta radiation for as long as the particular isotope is emitting radiation before it decays. That said, it is very difficult to envision a dirty bomb with radioactive material that would produce such fine particles and you are completely correct in saying that it is primarily a psychological weapon.

[c_yeager]

It isn't "shine" from the radiation that would be the problem with a rad contaminant release. The problem would be inhalation of the radioactive particles.

Exactly, and this is why you need FULL DECON before you can even take off your NBC gear. Take off your mask before you have been decontaminated and you just inhaled a lungfull off all the particles that have accumulated on your body. This makes the survival situation for a nuclear event VERY different from other events. In most cases you want to leave populated areas. In a nuclear event you are going to need someone with the facilities to decontaminate your body or you will be dying of radiation sickness. There isnt much you can do about radiation itself, but you can avoid inhailing radioactive particles (aka 'fallout') with proper gear, but as i said you will not be able to last long on your own. This means that you need to be able to move out of the effected area before your gear gives out.

[benEzra]

In the vast majority of nuclear-related scenarios, inhalation of radioactive particles is a relatively minor danger compared to direct gamma exposure from the gamma emitters. Simply staying inside a house or car with the ventilation turned off will protect you from the vast majority of the alpha and beta emitting dust.

There was a good bit of inhalation exposure at Chernobyl, but only because the firefighters were doing strenuous work in the smoke plume of a burning graphite-moderated reactor core (which can't happen here, no matter how you slice it).

[MaterDei]

Another round table topic. :cool:

When I was in Crete doing some training I ran into some Dutch soldiers who had beards. I asked them about the gas mask thing and they said that they use vaseline.

I don't think vaseline would be effective not can I believe that they thought it would be either. I suspect that you'd find a much more clean shaven army if they were to ever deploy to a combat zone.

I think that using vasoline was a compromise worked out between the soldiers union and the government that would allow them to keep their beards and long hair.

[Texian Pistolero]

So.... what about a really cool paintball mask with two CLEAN tampons duct-taped on?

[brickeyee]

hso,
Read what I wrote:
"There are simple filter masks rated for radiation protection. All you need is a decent HEPA rating to stop the particles."

What do you take this to mean? Many $8 HEPA masks are rated for ‘radiation daughters’ and do a decent job.

I then stated exactly the problem with alphas and betas in lung tissue.

If you stop the particles you have eliminated almost all the problem from radiation except the gammas. Gammas are a distinct hazard, but they can only damage what they hit. Most will pass right on through with no interaction. This is what creates the scaling factor between raw particle counts and REMs (Radiation Effective Man).
In many cases lower energy particles (protons and neutrons) are also are more dangerous than very high energy particles. The lower energy particles have a greater chance of having a reaction in tissue.

The other item that seems to paralyze the masses is half life. Given the choice of exposure to long and short half life materials producing the same radiation, take the long half life. It is producing fewer particles per unit time (that is why the half-life is so long, it takes more time for the material to decay).

[DontBurnMyFlag]

im just chiming in my 2 cents here. But my advice to the person who started the thread is to look at what the military is using and then get something better than that. My advice is go to UScav.com or www.approvedgasmasks.com and check out the masks and filters. SInce im on a budget, I have an israeli m15 mask and hood, with charcoal lined BDU's. The BDUs are still in the vacuum sealed containers and are expired. But will allow me the the time alloted to escape. Filters are the most important things. Sometimes even an old gas mask will still keep the seal and be rugged enough for any situation. However filters could detoriate within 20 mins to 20 months. Always have extra of everything for you and your family. Even if your family calls you paranoid, they'll want a mask if the excrement hits the rotating blades. Good luck. And I heed you this warning, survival preparation is like gun collecting, it never stops, they keep coming out with more effective and downright cooler things than before. :D