[LooseGrouper]

I caved in and bought a SA M1A SOCOM yesterday. I've been going back and forth between the Scout Squad and the SOCOM for about 3 months. The gun shop had a few of the SOCOM's in stock (no scouts), so they made an offer I couldn't pass up.

I've never owned an M1A before. Most of my previous rifles were bought used or handed down. I've heard that new rifles need to be broken in slowly. I searched the forum, but didn't come up with anything. Does anybody have experience they'd like to share?

As a side note, I bought some bulk 7.62 ammo. I assume it's military surplus because it came packed as 140 rounds in a green plastic bag that looks like an oversized MRE. Markings are as follows:

140
ROUND 7.62X51mm
BALL R1M1

CTN

170 B 11/81

Anyone have opinions on this particular stuff. I'm just going to use it for plinking. The thing that puzzles me is that 170 on the last line. Is that the grain? If so, should I use this ammo? I've heard that heavier bullets do damage to the M1As due to excess pressure.

[varoadking]

It's South African ammo - 147 grain.

I have several thousand rounds of it myself...good stuff. Here's the best deal on bulk purchases that I've found:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of_South_African.html

[geekWithA.45]

With respect to barrel break in, you've stumbled into a "religious debate", with many proponents on both sides, who will argue the merits of each case ad nauseum.

My $.02 is that anal retentive barrel breaking in is for prima donna sub MOA sniper rifles, which the M1A socom is not. It's a battle rifle, meant to be dragged through the mud, rinsed with a canteen, and thus be put back into action, ready to shoot it's regulation 2-4 moa. (Naturally, it'll rust, so you DO need to thoroughly clean any rifle subjected to immersion! I'm just trying to convey the spirit of the thing.)

That being said, it's your call, but mine went through 100 rounds, no cleaning, it's first trip, and it'll shoot 2.7 moa. I'll never miss the difference between that and 2.4 moa.

[saltydog]

Got a new M1A...what now?

Get very proficient with it. :D

[LooseGrouper]

What?! You mean I won't be able to take my SOCOM to Camp Perry and be competetive?!?!? GREAT...another dream crushed! :)

Okay, got it. Speaking of rusting, that's one thing I'm fairly concerned about. I'm pondering (in a completely theoretical sense at the moment) having a Black-T or similar finish put on. I've got Black-T on a P226, and love it. Is this just a rediculous idea for a "battle rifle?" How much would it cost? Anyone with experience?

There's just too many choices with this rifle: red dot, reflexive sight, scout scope, iron sights, new finish, pistol grip stock, assault sling, home-made stock paint job (he he he). The list goes on and on...

[geekWithA.45]

Re: Rust:

Normal maintenance, a light coat of oil and a dry place to live seems to be all it needs.

Re: Gadgets:

Knock yourself out!

Re: Iron sights:

Learn to how use them, and get good with them. M1As, even the shorty versions, are fairly hefty rifles, and no matter what optics you put on them, they always feel a ton lighter when you take them off.

[thereisnospoon]

I too recently purchased an M1A.

AS to advice of now what, someone wrote "get proficient with it"; to that i say AMEN.

Try this

www.fredsm14stocks.com

Order the AQT training pack...it is a very humbling experience, but good training. His "How to become a Rifleman" pamphlet has a lot of good stuff in it IMHO.

Then shoot that thing as often as necessary...and take a friend to the range and allow them to shoot your new beauty and just maybe you'll get them hooked :evil: and so on.

Spoon

[itgoesboom]

"What Now?"

1. Buy lots of ammo, use up, repeat.

2. Buy spare parts. Even on battle rifles, things break.

3. Take photos and show off.

I.G.B.

[LooseGrouper]

Thanks for all the advice. I have a couple of new questions to ask.

So the M1A is chambered for 7.62 NATO, which is sort of but not exactly the same as .308 Win (which I understand can be interchanged, as long as the bullet is not to heavy and they are not reloads). My South Afr surplus says "7.62x51mm." I thought it was 7.62x54. What's the deal?

Also, I like the iron sights on my socom, but I'm looking to try out a cheap red dot style optic to see if I like that better. Any opinions on the bushnell 4-reticle model? Even if it turns out to be a dud, it will make a good beater scope for my S&W .22 right? Seems hard to beat an $80 "test model."

[MoeMentum]

Shoot it !

[Bufford t. Justice]

7.62x51 is 7.62 Nato is .308 Win.
7.62x54 is not.
Enjoy

[itgoesboom]

"7.62x51 is 7.62 Nato is .308 Win.
7.62x54 is not.
Enjoy"

Well, actually, 7.62 is not exactly .308 win. It's pretty much the same thing, but the pressure is different. Kinda like 5.56 isn't really the same as .223 rem, it's damn close, but it's not the same.

I.G.B.

[ocabj]

Get yourself the Dewey service rifle rod for .30cals and a muzzle guide.

Sinclair sells a nifty product that you stick in the magwell so solvent doesn't get into the action. If you don't get one of those, just turn the rifle upside down when cleaning. That's what I do when I clean my Garands.

[geekWithA.45]

RE: Bushnell 4 reticle red dot

I had one, mounted on my AR's handle. It's OK. Not great, but OK, and as you say, decent for a "beater scope". I eventually replaced it with an EOtech, which I'd originally purchased for my m1a ss. For whatever reason, the EO did not get along with my m1a, so it went onto the AR, where it's quite happy. (Hmmmm....perhaps I'll try out my Bushnell on the M1A)


I don't know how well it will do on the scout mount, it's not a wide scope, and you might have field of view issues with it that far away from your eye.

As for the 4 reticles, once the novelty wore off, I pretty much just set it to the 1 moa dot and left it there. IIRC, the point of aim wasn't _exactly_ the same when you switched, but it was close enough for short range work.

All things considered, I'd say it was worth maybe $40-$60, but not the $75 I originally paid for it back in the day.

[Sven]

I built a bling-bling M1A from the lugged receiver up - put a Kreiger 1-10 stainless on there... shot sub 1MOA out of the box, so I did no special break in. SHOCK! HORROR!

I'll let you know when the groups start opening up... I'm guessing around 5K+ rounds.

[point45]

7.62 nato allows for longer headspace tolerances. So a rifle that has reached the longer end of the 7.62 nato headspace can be dangerous since it will be wayyyy out of the specified range for .308win

A rifle that will close on a .308 win field gauge is right around 7.62 nato nogo.

The m1a from springfield or any other semi auto m14 manufacturer should be chambered for .308 win. Except if its a polytech or norinco chinese copy.

As said, buy lots of ammo and enjoy, with a socom its not really intended to be a match grade rifle so most of the normal M1a/M14 accessories are not needed.

You can try a break in but thats a personal decision, ususlly it consists of firing a small number of shots and cleaning the barrel completly then firing a slightly larger number of rounds and cleaning again. This repeats untill some number of rounds have been fired. It varies from person to person.

Sven, did you build the rifle your self or have a smith do it. I am currently rebuilding my polytech myself and plan on using a 1-10 meduium weight barnett barrel. Any tips?

[P-32]

Shoot it, clean it and enjoy it. I have shot many many rounds down range with a tuned M-14. Sometimes we were reduced to FEDERAL 308 GM. I have seen many, many rounds of 308 go in to a M-14 without problems.

If you decide to reload, you will buy 308 dies but will need to set the shoulders back .002 to .003. It then matter not what your chamber size is because you are sizing to your chamber.

The 308/7.62 Nato thing is a there but not something that is going to make a difference with your rifle.

[Fatelvis]

I agree with Ocabj, get a good cleaning rod (Dewey or the new Carbon fiber kind), and most importantly a muzzle guide. It is very important to protect the crown on this rifle (and Garands) from damage, while cleaning. It will destroy accuracy fast! Oh yeah.... forget about breaking in your barrel, and try some 168 grn match loads from Federal,Black Hills, or handloads, to see what this rifle can really do!

[SnakeEater]

It's much easier to use the Otis cleaning kit than to use a rigid rod. I like the boresnake at the range and the Otis at home.

[LooseGrouper]

I took it to the range today, and I was pumped. Just to err on the side of caution, I ran a boresnake through it after every five rounds. Accuracy was pretty good at 25 yards, but I just have a hard time being very precise with the large aperature and post on the SOCOM.

Anyway, I really enjoyed shooting it, and so did several of the other folks at the range. Then the problems started. After about 20 rounds I had a failure to extract. Didn't have a cleaning rod, so I just waited for the round to cool off, let the bolt close, and applied a little pressure to get to open up. Not fun, but not traumatic either. Fired another 10 rd magazine-full and then a case got stuck again. Same clearing proceedure. Eventually the FTEs start coming every other round. Argh...

One of the folks at the range suggested that it was caused by the ammo being coated with some funky stuff and leaving residue in the chamber. Has this happened to anyone else? I'm using the surplus South Afr stuff. Didn't have any cleaning supplies except a bore snake, so the range session ended early and I switched to handguns.

Anyway, it was really fun to shoot while it funtioned. Maybe I'll find a good deal on some uncoated ammo in the near future. I'm planning to use EEZOX and a brush to clear out the chamber. Anyone think I need to use something stronger/better/different? Just asking. Man, these military rifles are complicated. All my marlin 336 ever needs is wd-40 and ammo that will go bang. Maybe I'll develop a NORTHCOM TLA (Tactical Lever Action). I mean after all, what's easier to do a tactical reload on than a lever action (except maybe a pump/auto shotgun. Think anyone would buy an 16" bbl 30-30 with integral rails?

[Carnitas]

I had a couple stuck case failures when I was shooting some Radwaygreen that was a little dirty/greasy. They were MG rounds that had been de-linked and had the tracers removed. Never had it happen with boxed surplus ammo.

I'd get a case of the Port or Aussie, clean the chamber throughly and try it again.

[jbweld]

:barf: Shooting a M1A at 25 yards??? You can buy a 22 rimfire handgun to do that. :scrutiny:

[LooseGrouper]

Hey jbweld, don't give me that look! :D

Yeah, I know it's much more capable than that, but I was just going to pop off a few to make sure it was zeroed. Then I was having fun shooting off hand. Then it turned into a single shot with a 5 round per hour rate of fire.

So I never got to take it over to the 100/200 yard range. Not that I could have hit much anyway. The sights on this rifle are designed for "coarse" shooting. I'm sure some of you Alvin Yorks out there could punch a smiley face on a silhouette at 200yd. I can't. I ain't called LooseGrouper because I set a fish free.

Ha! I crack me up.

[geekWithA.45]

Sorry to say it, but with that many FTE's, I'd suggest a trip back to SA is in order. The correct number of FTE's that is unrelated to obviously defective ammo is ZERO.

Properly made M1As are preposterously reliable, but once in a while SA doesn't make it right.

Hope you didn't get a lemon.

:(


Fortunately, they've got stellar customer service.

[NMshooter]

The last scout rifle (M1A) I had did ok with a Trijicon Reflex 2 on a throw lever mount without spacer on the forward rail.

The sight was mounted a little bit higher than I would have preferred, but this was an M1A, so I got used to it.

I preferred the ARMS #18 for a scope mount, the others were too high for me.

I suspect you will do ok with an optical sight on the forward rail.

[spartacus2002]

You may want to replace your extractor with a USGI extractor. Springfield Armory extractors have had MANY problems over the years. You can get a USGI M14 extractor at http://www.m1garandparts.com/M14parts.htm.

Second, are you using grease to lubricate the parts? M1As and M14s love a light application of grease in the oprod guide, the bolt lug and roller, and the oprod track.

[LooseGrouper]

Spartacus

I don't think it's the extractor. The extractor would pull a nice chunk of brass off the rim when the bolt was moved rearward. It was just that the case was sticking in the chamber. To get them out I'd have to let the bolt close and then wait for the case/chamber to cool off enough and then apply considerable constant pressure to get the bolt to come loose again. On the last one, I had to put a block of wood on the bolt handle and then tap the wood lightly with a hammer.

As far as lubrication goes, after I cleaned all the packing grease out of everything, I coated all the parts with EEZOX and then wiped it down, per the instructions on the can. Supposedly the eezox stuff keeps lubricating after it's been wiped down.

[geekWithA.45]

Take a close look @ your ammo...the symptoms sound kinda like what happened when I shot that Indian Surplus crapola, which had overlarge out of spec dimensions at the neck. (If you do a forum search on India .308, there's pix posted up that show what I'm talking about)

The main difference was that while the ammo jammed the rifle up good, the extractor didn't slip, nor did it tear the rim. It simply failed to cycle, and in order to correct the situation I had to wedge the bolt handle against a tree and lean on the rifle butt, using considerable force.

If your ammo and fired brass are in good order, I'd next suspect that the chamber was out of spec, which can be determined with a go/no go gauge.

AFAIK, the SA ammo doesn't have any funky coatings, and furthermore, I've never heard of coatings being an issue on the M14 platform.

[point45]

contact springfield.

Their warranty is there for a reason.

If I had to venture a guess and ammo was absolutly ruled out, sounds like a rough chamber.

[LooseGrouper]

Thanks for the info, folks. I'm going to try it out next weekend with some good factory (i.e. non-surplus) ammo. If that gives the same problems, I'll be sending it back.

I've had the worst luck with guns lately. S&W M19 that first had horrible end shake, then started bulging cases. Then a S&W 686 that wouldn't put groups under 5" at 10 yards. Then the M1A issues, and to top it all off, my Sig 226 started FTFing on me this weekend too!

I think I'm going to give up shooting and become a monk!...okay, maybe not. I'll just have to switch to single shots if this doesn't stop... :scrutiny:

Hey, I just notice that with this post, I became a "member" instead of just a newbie...yeaaaaaah!!!!

[LooseGrouper]

Okay, I took my SOCOM to the range today. It looks like good news this time. I took some Federal and Remington Match 165 gr to use as the "control" ammo. I fired 40 rounds (ouch...kinda stings around the wallet area) without a hitch. Perfect function. Then I loaded some of the surplus ammo that gave me problems earlier (I found out that it was Portuguese, not South African). First shot stuck in the chamber. I went on to have have 8 of 20 rounds fail to eject. Cleaning the chamber in between shots did no good. Then I went back and fired ten rounds of the match .308. Perfect funtion again. Looks like we can safely say that it's the ammo. I took the cases that had stuck to my trusted gunsmith. He pretty much said that since the primers were "flat" it looks like the headspacing on my rifle is too tight for some of the "sloppier" ammo (looks like geekwitha.45 had the right idea). Apparently this is good for accuracy and not so good for eat-any-ammo reliability.

Anyway, I'm looking to find some relatively cheap surplus that has fairly tight tolerances. Anyone have a good suggestion? I've heard really good things about Australian 7.62 nato.

Okay, since memorial day is next weekend I probably won't have another chance to go to the range until June. I'll put in another update then, if anyone is interested.

Oh, and just in case anyone cares about the performance...
I haven't yet moved to the 100 yd range. I'm still at 25 trying to work out the functioning. Still, the groups are about 3" at 25. It just seems to me that the front post is too thick for much better than that (at least in my hands). When I get some optics, I'll try figuring out the actuall accuracy. Overall, I love the way the rifle handles and shoots. Recoil is noticeably heavier than my Mini 30 of course, but not at all unmanagable since I'm used to shooting the same ammo in my Browning BLR (Belgium made...booyah!). I'd have to say I feel only slightly more recoil than with a .30-30. Blast doesn't seem any more noticable than full house defense loads in my 686.

[Well Regulated]

I have an M1A with a National Match Barrel. I started having the exact same problems of failure to extract the fired case. I sent it to Springfield. They installed a new bolt and the new headspace was slightly larger. They fired 20 rounds of Lake City, and 20 rounds of Winchester. No failures to extract.

I took it to the range and had failure to extract with the Australian Ammo again. So I bought Winchester .308 ammo and Got some Lake City 7.62 National Match Ammo. 20 Rounds Lake city- no Failures to extract. 20 Rounds Winchester- No Failures to extract. Re-tried the Australian ammo, failure to extract on 5th round. It appears that at least the years of 1983 and 1990, the brass from the shoulder up expands outward but never contracts back as the other American made ammo did. Foreign Military surplus is iffy and quality of brass and specs may depend on year and lot. :cuss:

[Smurfslayer]

You said: Foreign Military surplus is iffy and quality of brass and specs may depend on year and lot


I correct: Foreign militaries are iffy :evil: :D

[444]

Buy a GOOD shooting sling.
Learn to really shoot.
In other words, NEVER use a bench or a rest.

[geekWithA.45]

Still, the groups are about 3" at 25. It just seems to me that the front post is too thick for much better than that (at least in my hands).

I think that's probably more a matter of practice than anything else, but it also sounds like you've only got a couple hundred rounds through the thing at this point, and are still sorting out some fundamental issues with the rifle and setup.

Once you do have it sorted out, even with more tolerant headspacing, @ 25, that rifle should be able to punch 1/2-3/4 inch single hole groups, especially if you're shooting from the bench. If you're shooting standing/unsupported, you're in the ballpark, with room for improvement.

[Well Regulated]

I just came back from shooting my M1A and it had three failures to extract with Lake City Ammo!!! So The Australian Ammo may not be the problem. Looks like it may be an extractor problem or there is something wrong with the chamber itself.

[24kshooter]

It should function reliably with surplus ammo. We are dealing with a 16" bbl. here and a new configuration for SA. I would send it back post haste. It will cost you $20 but you need to have a reliable rifle.

[Well Regulated]

They said they would reimburse me for the shipping. I said Fix it or Give me a new Gun as this one is new and has been in repair more than I have shot it. I sent it back today. I'll keep you posted on whether Springfield makes good on its warranty for the second time. If it were me I would just replace it with a new rifle. If they keep paying for the shipment , I'll keep sending it back until they get it right and shoot my Garand while they fix it. Pretty soon they will realize that they are loosing a lot of money on shipping and damaging their reputation at the same time.

[B.FRANKlin]

Do the same thing the NYC cop said to do when asked "How do I get to Madison Square Garden?"
"PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!"
There is how the government says to do it, then there is what really works.