[Third_Rail]

I haven't heard anyone else talk of it, but there has to be someone else who mixes their own BP as well.

I make 4Fg, 2Fg, and "cannon" powders. I make my own fuses, etc. Nothing like having as much BP as I need at something like $3.75 a pound!! :D

Care is needed, but on the whole making BP really isn't dangerous - no smoking, sparks, etc. in the area, there's dust involved (charcoal) so wear a mask, etc. It's a fun process on the whole, though!


If anyone has questions or stories to share re: making BP, chime in!

[molonlabe]

Not since I was a kid, with my safe Gilbert chemistry set. I wonder if that druggist wondered what I wanted the saltpeter for. I remember the explosion from what I constructed was memorable. :D

[armoredman]

Now THAT's a survivalist! Lotsa BP weapons around? Love the old 1851 Navy. A couple of 1861 Army revolvers and a Springfield trapdoor would make me feel just fine in the wild...backed up by a nice muzzleloading shotgun, of course!
How long does it take to make black powder?

[White Horseradish]

Is there a website on the subject somewhere? I think it's interesting, but I don't want to make you write War And Peace sized posts here.

[Third_Rail]

Now, now, armoredman, I'm not a survivalist. I'm a cheap person who also knows chemistry! :neener:

It usually takes me about an hour and a half to make 1/2 pound of meal powder, which is BP that hasn't been turned into the grains we actually use in BP firearms - the only real use is for making certain kinds of fuse.

Here (http://www.wecreate4u.net/dwilliams/blackpowder/blackpowder.html) is a link to Dan Williams' blackpowder making page, and here (http://www.wecreate4u.net/dwilliams/) is a link to the main page where you can find other projects and tools.

Good places to get chemicals needed/fuse/tools/etc. are Firefox (www.firefox-fx.com), Skylighter (www.skylighter.com), and for fuse, CannonFuse (www.cannonfuse.com).

I'm surprised that more people don't make their own BP, it sure is fun... plus I don't feel so guilty lighting a few ounces in a pile (with a long fuse!!) to demonstrate chemical energy to the younger kids in the neighborhood.


I personally choose to skip the ballmill and instead buy the finest mesh (higher number is finer) chemicals.

This creates a lot of dust, so do it outside! I measure the ingredients (75% KNO3 [potassium nitrate, saltpeter], 15% charcoal [actual charcoal, not briquettes!], and 10% sulfur), mix them together loosely, and then sift them through a fine strainer two or three times - the result is a very finely mixed powder called meal powder... to go from there, you can follow Dan Williams' iinstructions on making a press, pressing the powder into cakes, and graining them.

Or you can once again go my route and simply moisten them as described by Williams and then grate a pressed together chunk (think cheese) against a screen of the desired grain size. It's a lot easier than it would seem.... Most important - PLASTIC (static free) or WOOD tools only when dealing with the powder. Williams takes a big risk by using aluminum, even though the static risk is low.

[4v50 Gary]

Too scientific for my simple brain. I have enough trouble getting the water to oatmeal ratio right. Now, as to mixed powder, the only "mixing" I've done is order a 25 pound case with various different grains with the majority being 2F, a few 3F and only 1 1F. That 1F goes a long way.

[Third_Rail]

It's not that scientific... it used to be that most people would make their own rather than buy it, up until a 150 years ago or so, when it really started being made...

There was a good reason so many expeditions were sent looking for good "nitre caves" - it was the only good known way at the time to get the potassium nitrate.

[10shooter]

I have a background in chemistry and this looks like so much fun. Blackpowder made by a shooter who cast their own bullets, tinkers with firearms should enhance the satisfaction of shooting. :)

[Third_Rail]

CASTING! :what:


I knew there was something else firearms related I wanted to get into... thanks for reminding me! :D

[Tinker]

Third Rail,

Seeing how BP is getting harder and harder to find food for my MLers the idea of making it sounds inviting. Especially if legal to do so. I find it quite interesting. I clicked the link to that fellow's page and it all sounded good until I read "blast shield". He also notes that his blast shield is made of 'plexiglas'. If it is regular plexiglas then, in the slight chance that he does have a mishap while pressing, his shield will turn into shrapnel. Not to mention the PVC portion. Plexiglass is rather brittle and will break with just a hammer's blow. Lexan would be a much better thing to use. Even if it's not quite as thick as what he's using. It has a slightly blueish tint and quite tough. Plexiglass is clearer, whiter.

One other thing....even if he has a sound blast shield the design has another flaw. If there was an accident the blast shield would propel the whole press back toward the operator. It would act as a sail. I would suggest setting the press against two deeply rooted posts. Those being between the operator and the press.

Not trying to be a ninny. I was probably exposed to more danger driving into town today than someone making his own BP. Just adding my .02 for safey's sake.

[Third_Rail]

BP is VERY hard to set off from friction and static... flame/heat is the only practical way to do it.

FWIW, I've never had an accident with BP, and I haven't heard of any other people having a mishap either, except for one that was :cuss: smoking while making 200 grams.....

I personally believe it's just so that he feels better about compressing the BP into a cake. When damp as described, it's even harder to set off.


Personally, I skip that whole sequence of steps and go the grating route.

[Tinker]

Third Rail,

I think you are right about the static. Once, on some BP board (I can't recall which one) a member posted a link where a guy proved you can't set off BP with static voltage charges. He arced some samples directly with a high voltage transformer and couldn't get it to ignite. His theory was that the carbon in the BP allowed the current to pass around and through without generating enough heat to cause ignition. He couldn't even get something as fine as FFFFG to go off. Wish I still had the link.

Come to think of it, I have an electric fence charger that puts out about 10-20kv. It can make arcs of about 1/8". The one the guy used could make longer arcs, so I'd think his was a much higher voltage. I need to try the same experiment on a small sample some time.

[Third_Rail]

Yeah, I seem to recall that too, though I thought it was PowerLabs that did the experiment.

[JNewell]

OK, I'll admit to being a little confused. Not a new condition, but... :D

I was always told that static could, in fact, ignite BP although this link (http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/sparks/sparks.html) seems to demonstrate otherwise. This was why we use(d) brass measures, not iron, for example? -- because they were non-sparking. :confused:

[Third_Rail]

Case of "better safe than sorry", I suppose.

[Smokin_Gun]

How do you protect against ESD? Electro Static Disharge... :fire:

[Third_Rail]

Welcome to THR! If you read a few posts up in this thread you'll see a link to a series of experiments dealing with just that, electricity and BP. It seems that it really isn't a concern.

[Smokin_Gun]

Thanks glad to be here. I was wonderin if that blue spark that hurts for finger or someones's ear is enough to set off BP? (ESD) I mean while makin it, I know that loadin it doesn't it's pretty stable.
I'm a BP Shootist and Rondavouser been at it about 25 yrs. just so ya know a lil about me.

[Tinker]

JNewell,

That's the link I was referring to. Thanks.

Smoking Gun,

You asked: "How do you protect against ESD? Electro Static Disharge"

A static charge is built up when one object holds more electrons than another. The old "walking across a carpet, then touching a (grounded) faucet" thing. Your body accumulated a charge while on the carpet and discharged when you touched the faucet. Same thing with BP containers. Say you wanted to pour some Goex BP from it's container to a brass flask. It's a cold, dry day at the shooting range and you're wearing wool clothes and gloves. You've let the flask rub against your wool jacket and it's built up a charge. The gloves and dry air prevent the charge from leaving the flask. When you touch the Goex container and the flask there is an arc. To prevent this all you have to do is touch the container and the flask together before opening them. The same would apply when moviing BP to any other container. That is why I've also heard that any plastic containers should not be used for BP. Plastic insulates charges just like the gloves did above.

[Third_Rail]

Plastic is, IMHO, a whole lot safer than metal in the case of accidental ignition.

Not saying I'd like to get hit by either in the form of shrapnel, but the plastics I use are more likely to "peel away" than shatter.

Also, as a general rule of thumb (since I make other pyrotechnic mixtures as well) I stay away from metal storage containers. Currently I store my BP in cans that held smokeless powder, which are heavy plastic, and in snap top tupperware containers.

[Father Knows Best]

Making black powder that is useful in firearms is not easy. Good BP is not simply a mechanical mixture of the various components. They need to be wetted and pressed into cakes, then dried and broken up again. That's the dangerous part. It creates explosive dust. There are reasons that black powder mills are set in remote areas, and have remote startup for the machinery. The Goex plant in Louisiana blew up again in the last year, putting it out of commission for many months.

I can buy black powder for about $9 a pound delivered to my door, in any mix of granulations, when I order it in 25 pound lots. To my way of thinking, it is foolhardy to risk trying to make it yourself. You'll wind up with a very inferior product and may blow up yourself, your home and your loved ones in the process.

[Third_Rail]

:scrutiny:


Riiiiiight. Well, I guess all this time I've been creating explosive dust and whatnot, I've been making an undue risk to others?

And BP is so dangerous, no one should have it. Not even buy it. Guns are scary too, don't have those either. :neener:



BP is easy to make, and if you know what you're doing quite safe. The reason there is a problem in large BP plants is because they use electrical machinery! That is when BP dust in the air is truly dangerous - think FAE.

Also, I don't make cakes, nor do I corn them - I grain my BP differently using a series of screens. In either case, small-scale production not using electrical machinery that will be exposed to BP dust is not dangerous when safety is observed.




Making BP that is useful in firearms is not hard. In fact, I'd wager that my homemade BP is more powerful than Swiss or Goex. Yes, it will foul more, yes it's less dense, but I bet I can get more energy into a given projectile out of the same barrel length than you can.



EDIT: Thought of one more thing - when my primary use is pyrotechnics, it truly does make sense for me to make BP... it gets suspicious (and expensive!) buying pounds and pounds a year. Here in MA you can only have 2 lbs in a residence, and since I don't get to the range a lot, it would be rather... strange... for me to constantly buy 2 lbs, then a month later 2 more. Last I knew, I couldn't mail order BP in quantities larger than 2lbs, either, due to my living in MA.

To each his own, though. :)

[Father Knows Best]

And BP is so dangerous, no one should have it. Not even buy it. Guns are scary too, don't have those either.

Try reading my post before you shoot your mouth off. As my daddy always said, "tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt."

BP is dangerous stuff. Unlike nitrocellulose base (smokeless) powders, it is an explosive. The reason many cities limit the amount you can store is that it has the very real potential of exploding and doing a LOT of damage -- not just to you but to, say, firefighters. BP production facilities have been blowing up since long before there was electrical machinery to make it, too.

That said, I never said it was so dangerous that no one should have it. In case you failed to notice, I mentioned that I buy it in 25 pound lots. I bought 50 pounds in my last order. I am careful with how I store it, however, and how I load it. I load thousands of rounds of black powder cartridges every year. And yes, guns are dangerous, too. I've got quite of few of those, also.

I choose to accept the risks inherent in possessing, storing, loading and shooting black powder. I draw the line at manufacturing it in the home, because there are substantial additional risks involved, and very little benefit. If you want to take that risk, well, go ahead. I'm certainly not going to try to stop you. You're doing a disservice to others, however, if you try to claim that those risks don't exist.

[Third_Rail]

I guess the internet doesn't convey sarcasm very well.... No offense meant, and you have my sincere apologies if I offended you.

[Father Knows Best]

Indeed it doesn't, and I'm having a rotten day at work, which clearly influenced how I read your post. I overreacted. No apology is needed.

I'll try to stay a little cooler in the future, especially around guys who make their own black powder.... ;)

[Third_Rail]

Well, in either case, we're a-ok now. :)

You are wholly correct on how dangerous machinery and the hydraulic graining of BP can be... DuPont, the first major producer of BP, had a facility on the river with three solid concrete walls. The fourth was cheap plywood (3/4"), designed to blow out and take all the pressure with it in case of an explosion. I believe that they had to replace that particular wall four :what: times due to explosions.

Slightly off topic, but where do you purchase your BP, and do they sell smaller amounts? I'd love to test mine against Goex or Swiss.... everything I've done thus far indicates that homemade is indeed higher pressure (therefore more powerful), which makes sense - liability and all for the major companies.

[Father Knows Best]

I buy mainly from Powder, Inc., in Arkansas: http://www.powderinc.com. They're a Goex master distributor. They do sell in smaller amounts, but you only get the best prices by buying in 25 or 50 pound lots, especially when you consider the HazMat fee that has to be added to every shipment. The good news is that you can mix and match any combination of brands and granulations to reach the 25/50 pound magic number. I place a couple of orders a year, and usually split them with buddies at the gun club. I go through a lot myself, though, as I shoot frontier cartridge in SASS competition, using full house 44-40 and 12 gauge. The shotshells in particular eat up a lot of BP. I also load some 45-70 for BPCR.

[Third_Rail]

Oh heck, that's another reason I make my own BP... I'm only 18 and can't buy it from mail-order houses!