LA shoot...

[Arc-Lite]

With my mouth open, I watched the newest, or one of the more recent police shoots, that took place on the streets of LA.... if I were in charge, I would fire the whole group that was on scene...like how do you fire 70-90 shots, and only hit this drug dealer...4 times.....disgraceful (this was tongue in cheek)

[Preacherman]

Linkies???

[Arc-Lite]

CBS national news, without doubt tomorrows paper. (Preacherman...surprised, you did not post the new volcano alert, with yellowstone)

[Jeff White]

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4465592/detail.html

Deputy, Suspect Wounded After High-Speed Chase In Compton
Sheriff's Deputy May Have Been Shot By Fellow Deputy

COMPTON, Calif. -- A high-speed chase ended Monday in a barrage of gunfire that injured two men, including a Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy who might have been caught in the crossfire of other deputies.

The deputy was treated for a minor injury at a hospital and released, sheriff's spokesman Scott Gage said. The deputy's name was not immediately released and investigators were trying to determine how he was injured, Gage said. The suspect, 44-year-old Winston Hayes, was taken to a hospital and was listed in stable condition, Gage said.

The confrontation occurred shortly after midnight when deputies responded to calls of shots being fired on a Compton street and a description of the SUV, Gage said. When deputies encountered the vehicle and tried to stop it, the driver refused to yield, so deputies pursued, authorities said.

Hayes was believed involved in the earlier shooting. Authorities said he led deputies through residential areas at speeds up to 35 mph before spike strips flattened his tires and the white Chevrolet SUV rolled to a stop.

Television footage showed the SUV being chased through a residential neighborhood, then blocked by a patrol car around the same location shots were first reported. At least three deputies can be seen firing shots at the SUV as it slowly rolled toward a patrol car, then rear-ended it. At least one bullet struck the windshield.

When deputies pulled the driver out of the vehicle, his right hand was bloodied.

Sheriff Lee Baca conducted a news conference Monday morning.

"From where the shooters were standing, there was an intensity environment that, quite frankly, was not easy to perceive (on the video)," Baca said. "Deputies may shoot in defense of their lives or the lives of citizenry."

Hayes, believed to be under the influence of drugs, had four gunshot wounds when he was pulled out of the vehicle, Baca said. The wounds were not life threatening.

"What we are going to look at is what was the triggering point of the shooting. That's the key question right now," Baca said. "There are two things that I will be very concerned about: Tactics and the intensity of what was going on.

"We're not sure how the deputy was injured but it could be from friendly fire."

Gage said he did not know whether the driver was armed, but said he will be arrested when he is released from the hospital. No weapon was found in Hayes' vehicle.

I have dial up out here in the wilds of Southern Illinois so I can't see the video. I'd like to remind everyone that shooting someone in a vehicle with handguns is problematic at best. There isn't mush that is reliable or accurate theough auto glass.

Jeff

[Bob F.]

"through auto glass', hell, they only hit the windshield 4 or 5 times! Did you see the deputy pointing his gun at the camera?
Now, having run my mouth, I'll wait for the rest of the story. The video certainly .... Well, let's wait and see.

Stay safe (and out of PRK)
Bob

[Arc-Lite]

Jeff...that looks like the one, but, keep in mind...its LA... I read your post quickly, but on the video run, it looked like alot more then three officers...and fire lanes were over lapping....made me duck, and it was on t.v. !!!! granted a shot threw auto glass is tough, always has been, but makes you wonder why this has not been addressed, and solved. My first report was 90 rounds fired, then it was reduced to 70....so the reports are still a question.

[DNA]

Funny how many people choose to monday morning quarterback. OR pretend to know what went on when they weren't there.

Dan

p.s. If you think you can do better. Apply.

[Arc-Lite]

Dan.... wait a bit, kind of early in the thread for that...

[GreenFurniture]

I saw this on the news tonight. Made me glad I don't live anywhere near LA.

Ninety (...or less, let the face saving begin) rounds fired. Suspect hit four times. At least once in the hand. One deputy shot by, more likely than not, another Deputy.

Soon they're going to have to issue score cards.

[Ironbarr]

Wait for the Fox news ad goes by.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155956,00.html

[Cosmoline]

Reminder of the rules in Strategies and Tactics:

Posts on how cops are too fat and lazy to train or how all private security officers are mall ninjas aren't welcome here. Here in S&T we'll discuss the mechanics of a situation. If you just want to jump into a thread and bash someone or any profession take it to General Discussion or Legal and Political

[rock jock]

Watched the video. Here is what I noticed:

At one point after the initial volley of shots is over, the deputy in the forefront of the camera starts to move around towards the front of the vehicle so as not to put his buddy in the direct line of fire from his own gun (a little late). This was probably correct from a safety standpoint, but not very tactically smart as he was now in front of a vehicle that may or may not be disabled AND he is blinded by the headlights. Kind of a no-win situation for him. His buddy should have moved back while firing instead of remaining in a static position, which placed him directly on the other side of the suspect. However, in that case, he would have been moving while firing, which is very difficult to do with a handgun. IMHO, the best solution would have been to have one or two shooters with ARs/scatterguns alone direct their fire into the cab.

[Sactown]

I just saw this on the news. Wow, 90 rnds!!! and only 4 hits? At that range, I hope they find all the bullets in the car and hot spread throughout the neighborhood.

[mete]

Apparently they were trying to stop the vehicle . .... Two examples of poor tactics -one officer [back to camera] stood IN FRONT of very good cover instead of behind it. Then an officer motioned to the cameraman to get back .But he did so with the gun in his hand pointing the gun at the man !!!

[Arc-Lite]

It is likely this video will become a training reference, it's easy to see how everyone danced funny, when watched on a video clip, but during the dance, your just trying to get home alive....one hot fire fight, and the world becomes a different place !!!!

[Imaginos]

About 10 years ago Dallas PD chased a drive-by shooter into a suburb. When the punk stepped out of his truck with a gun in his hand, DPD expended 115 rounds.

The results were 8 nonlethal wounds to the suspect, and a lot of really irritated suburbanites who were picking stray rounds out of their houses.

I was a certified LEO in Texas back in 1990. I tried to get a job with Balch Springs PD. At the "board exam", I was presented a scenario where I would be required to shoot into a vehicle attempting to flee a traffic stop in a residential neighborhood.

I told the board I would not shoot because the issue ammunition (9mm 147gr subsonics) would not reliably penetrate the body panels or glass of a vehicle, and I felt the risk if ricochets presented too great a danger to the public. I told them I would let them run and get the vahicle description out ASAP, so more LEOs could be brought in to help find the BGs.

The next question from the board was, "Don't you think a car with bullet holes in it would be easier to find?"

I failed the board exam. Go fig.

[HankB]

From the video I saw, I have a lot of questions. Clearly, if they were shooting at the bad guy, they must have felt they were in danger . . . yet in the videos, the officers I saw made NO repeat NO effort to make use of of the cover or concealment nearby, they were just standing out in the open, apparently pulling the trigger as fast as possible with the firearm pointed in the general direction of the presumed bad guy.

Were they ever taught the use of the sights? :confused:

Weren't they ever taught the use of cover? :confused:

Round count in the latest stories I saw was up to 120 - with four minor hits on the (unarmed) suspect. Apparently many rounds hit nearby buildings . . . IMHO the officers are lucky 1) they didn't hit any bystanders; and 2) they didn't receive accurate return fire from a home they'd just ventilated.

I wonder if any resumed firing after shooting their pistol dry and reloading?

[bcochran]

Tactics are simply the fundamentals applied to the situation at hand.

It is desirable that a person learn shooting fundamentals well enough that he/she can shoot effectively sitting, standing, walking, running and in 360 degrees. Very few people have the time, money or discipline to learn the fundamentals. Certainly, it is a rare department that will invest the same in an officer.

Isn't the typical mental set that the goal is to get through the annual qualification at a known distance in a well lighted environment?

How many police officers, much less members of the general public do the following. Buy a $12 pair of welding goggles and a $3 pair of dark inserts. Go to an indoor range. Put the dark insert in the goggles. Practice reloading, shooting, walking in place under conditions in which the shooter can't see the target very well, can't see when reloading, can't see the pistol when put down on the table? Very few. Yet, this is a very good simulation of low light, the condition in which most shootings occur.

If you want your employee to shoot 2 -3 times a week and maintain his proficiency in fundamentals and tactics, you have to spend the money - and this is just not going to happen in the real world.

I relate just a few things that I have seen over the years:

LAPD officer shooting himself on the draw;
the backup LAPD officer with her shotgun pointed at the back of her partner's head;
the LAPD rookie running on the Academy parking lot, his 9mm coolly falling out and sliding an unbelievable distance along the pavement;
the routine traffic stop with officers with shotguns starting from a safe distance and running up to the suspects instead of staying back.

If we are not going to take the time to ground people in the fundamentals of shooting, ballistics and the situations that they will face, you will have problems.

[TheDutchman]

Check your Fire! Check your fire!