[sm]

I am curious about something about folks and firearms.

Recent conversations, readings, interactions and such with some folks really have me scratching my head. Maybe I really am just getting old, stuck in the past, going through a dimension of life change. Perhaps I am late for my middle age crazy phase.

I grew up with learning to shoot, learning the correct basic fundamentals and building on them. We didn't have the various choices available today, and we didn't have the Internet for sure.

We had collectors of course, folks preserving history. We had our competitions and training of the day. We had new advances one might say, new holster designs,stocks, sights and such...still the basic premise was the correct basic fundamentals, and building on them. The advances were task needed to better perform, not as a substitute for poor training.

One didn't try to buy skill and targets with equipment.

Are we seeing more folks into the Iwannacoolgunvirus, because Flowershirtedgunguysaidso?

Are we seeing more Image and Perceived Image instead of folks really interested in firearms for Metal & Wood ?

Curious and ages would be nice with responses please.

Steve

[Arc-Lite]

Changes come, with staying alive.. if you live long enough yesterdays dreams will be todays gizmo's. For me, changes that improves things are most welcome, but changes for the sake of change, are funny. .......older then Israel

[Third_Rail]

Only 18 years old here, but I too am puzzled by the people at the range with the multi-thousand dollar rifles that can't hit a piece of writing paper at 100 yards.

They usually stop laughing about my "old, beat up rifle" when I cut the X out at 100 yards with a quick succession of shots... I love my 1917. :evil:

[dasmi]

As with any hobby or sport, there will always be people who get into it for the "look" and cool-factor. Nothing new.

[Double Maduro]

sm,

I grew up with guns, much as you. To me guns have always been tools. Sure I pick up a copy of a magazine with pictures of fine engraved double guns and I drool. I see pictures of custom 1911's and I want one.

The thing is, if I have it I will use it. I don't have a need for a tool that is so pretty that I can't use it. I don't want to worry about scratching a tool.

Sure I can appreciate these fine weapons as works of art, but give me a good, solid, dependable tool and I will be happy.

For the record I am soon to be 58. I carry a Ruger P90 .45, all day, everyday in a DA3 IWB from Ted Blocker Leather. The only mod I have made to this fine tool is a set of Hogue grips. This is a mod I have reccomended to many people and never had anyone tell me I was wrong yet.

So I guess for me the function is more important than the form. Would I hunt grouse with a $20,000 double gun? If I owned one I would. Would I cry if I dinged the stock? Yes, I would. But I would get over it. Especially if I got a double on Ruffs that day.

DM

[Preacherman]

What is this "metal" and "wood" of which you speak? :confused:

:neener:

[Beav]

I'm too cool for geezer guns. :neener:

[nico]

Steve, I'm 21 and I agree with you. I think Double Maduro put it very well. I would love to have an Ed Brown pistol or Krieghoff Shotgun (at least I would if I could get myself to like O/Us) some day. But, I wouldn't buy a gun that I couldn't use and I wouldn't buy a gun just because it looks cool. I've come across plenty of people who are exactly what you describe, mainly on other, non-gun related message boards. I think a lot of it comes from people who didn't grow up around guns seeing movies and playing video games. That's the only information they get, and they have no way of getting better educated (and picking up a gun rag sure doesn't help), so they buy into it.

I'm big into cars and racing and I've noticed the same thing there. I don't have the time or money to race right now, so I autocross. I see people all the time who decided they wanted to autocross/race so they went out and bought Corvette and modified the hell out of it. Then, these guys walk around the paddock wondering why they can't keep up with me in my neon or most of the other reasonably experienced people in cheap cars.

[JohnBT]

"into the Iwannacoolgunvirus, because Flowershirtedgunguysaidso"

You do have a way with big words. ;)

"One didn't try to buy skill and targets with equipment."

I agree. I'm 54. We, the extended family and friends, might have tried to buy some skill if we'd had enough money to own more than one or two good guns and a single box of shells. Did I ever tell you the story about my father, uncle and grandfather killing the bear with birdshot?

The first shot always counts. And the second and third, too. And so does my dad's new 28 ga. :) Nothing like a good gun that fits.

One of my favorite things is being invited to shoot a stranger's new rifle at the range and have them say "Oh, it does shoot okay, doesn't it? I was worried." :) It's just one of those knacks I picked up as a kid shooting loaners and beaters and such. If you hold the sights on the target and squeeze the trigger good things happen. Simple, no? ;)

But I love gizmos, too, not that something like a Lyman digital trigger gauge or the big set of Brownell's screwdrivers helps my shooting much.

John

[Okiecruffler]

I like them all. Love to look at the fancy new plastic ubber guns with all sorts of bells and whistles.

But for me to truely love a gun, to enjoy just the simple act of holding it, it has to be a utility grade gun, made for the blue collar man. Steel is a great thing, but good wood has a warmth and feel second to none (stop laughing). Maybe I have some of that carpenter blood in me from my papa.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go fondle my 311's.

[kfranz]

One didn't try to buy skill and targets with equipment.

You sure about that? It's easy to think everyone else did just like we did, but truth be told, we don't have a clue as to what most other folks did or why. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that there IS a greater emphasis on stuff today, simply because "stuff" is easier to come by than time. I don't believe that this was always so.

[Leatherneck]

I'm with Okie. Most of my drooling these days is over WW II MILSURPS from every participating country, but primarily the USA. The glitzy, tricked-out plastic guns popular with many today do little for me beyond a mild curiosity. But the older service-grade rifles and handguns get my blood going.

TC

[Standing Wolf]

One didn't try to buy skill and targets with equipment.

At least, not until the onset of arthritis, which necessitated scopes, mounts, trigger jobs, custom stocks, et cetera.

[Control Group]

Hrm

I'll weigh in here, at 27 years old. I'm pretty new to the Hobby, but in pistols, I've so far tended to the modern "tactical tupperware" (a Steyr M9 and a Beretta Neos). In rifles, though, I have no desire to own anything that doesn't have a wooden stock (my C&R app is waiting to be mailed as I type this). Preferably bolt-action. Unfortunately, I only currently own one rifle (a Mosin M44), but all the rifles that have appealed to me at shows or in stores have so far been milsurps.

As far as gizmos go, I'm thinking about a red dot for my Neos, but that's it. And that's, at best, a fifty-fifty proposition right now.

[Smokey Joe]

Quote: "One didn't try to buy skill and targets with equipment."

Hmmmm. Back in the day when HS rifle teams weren't politically incorrect, and I shot competitive .22 rifle, all the winners had somehow managed to scrape, beg, or borrow, enough $$ for a Win Mdl. 52, or a Rem Mdl 40X. With the big Redfield Olympic sights. And those out-shot everything else on the range. Those of us (me included) without that much wherewithal, did as well as we could with what we could afford. I did "all right" with a Rem Mdl 513T, with a stock that was too small for me.

I think competitors have always been willing to put $$ into the best equipment they could afford, so that whatever skill and technique they posess, or can learn, is maximized as to results.

Sure you have the rich kids whose parents just dump money on the problem instead of having the kids learn good fundamentals, but we had them back then, too, and THOSE kids I could always out-shoot.

[Rupestris]

I seem to be the guy stuck in the middle. I love deep blue and beautiful wood. I also tend to abuse my stuff so I've no problem owning something synthetic.

Given a choce between todays "wood and metal" and plastic, gimmie synthetic. That stuff that Marlin, Remington, Ruger try to pass off as wood today is a far cry from the wood of old. Somehow, I doubt it would even burn. It lacks character.

One didn't try to buy skill and targets with equipment.

Maybe if there were more shooters on a shoestring budget like myself ... :rolleyes:
Ammo is cheap and I love to shoot more than I love to tinker/add-on/customize. Besides, vertical forend grips, Red dot's, surefires, and all the toys don't look all that good on leverguns :p

[sm]

Thanks folks.

Metal and Wood is in reference to http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/library/Metal_and_Wood.html :)

Standing Wolf, I can empathize with arthristis and one's eyes not being cooperative. You have the basic fundamentals, the skills, the countless rounds fired, the training and such. You built your foundation first, and built upon it. With hands and eyes not being as they once were, you just adapted, improvised and overcame is all.

I too shot a Model 52 in rimfire. Gunny supplied the rifles for most us he took under his charge, there were Winchester and Remingtons, some just single shots. A few times someone showed up with a gun they owned...WOW! We visited other groups that had really nice equipment, fancy mats, matching T shirts,kids owned their own guns.. We may get get beat , we put up a helluva challenge. When we won,and we did many many times, we knew the importance of how a pc of equipment worked and why. Gunny knew, I knew, we all knew, if we did our part to the best of our ability, we would be okay.

Never forget some guys that helped out, come to visit. Military folks from all branches, Nat'l Guard, Army, USMC, USAF and Navy. Watch these folks - ladies too...shoot our guns and dang...they could shoot!! Learned that Ladies from a place called JAG knew not only rifles , but 1911s [ that was a shocker to kids my age]

I appreciate fine guns, I have owed nice guns like the Perazzi MX8 , competed with one, took ducks and quail with it too... tossed in a horse scabbard and off I went. I still get a kick out of hunting with a old single shot .22 rifle or .410 shotgun.

Good thing I learned to shoot without sights, my eyes - well gotta problem. Advantage to ME, never needed beads on a shotgun anyway. Been known to lose a bead during a tourney and never miss . Run straights with shotguns I had removed the bead on purpose.

Tools for task, nothing wrong with having a proper tool for the task, or one that better fits ones hands, body. Basic principle is how to use a hammer. Some work better for "carburator adjusting tools" than others. :p

Restores some faith I guess I thought I was losing. Still a bit disillusioned about some of the responsible firearm ownership and the folks tho'.

Rup- I'm with ya buddy, Model 94 needs nothing but ammo, sling is okay, scabbard for a horse is okay. That is all tho' :)

Steve

[Old Dog]

Are we seeing more Image and Perceived Image instead of folks really interested in firearms for Metal & Wood ?
Yes; I think so. Being at the tail end of a military career that's just passed a quarter-century (yes, I'm in my 40s now), I've been fortunate (really) to work with young people of all origins and backgrounds ... and of course, have been in positions where I got to listen to a lot of words (and hence hear the thoughts) from younger generations ... more and more, so many of the younger folks I see "getting into guns" seem to be indicating they want the latest technology, the coolest gizmos ... rather than seeming appreciative of the classics (as so many of us were taught to be by our granddads, dads, uncles, etc., when we came up). I hear my guys talking about guns in movies, being "tactical" and "needing" accessories that really don't make anyone a better shooter. Heck, I knew I was truly a dinosaur the day I heard a young guy describe a Glock as beautiful; the same kid who wondered aloud why a buddy of mine and I always admired the M-14s in the armory and didn't obsess about shooting the new batch of M-4s we'd just received ...

I remember my dad and granddad making a big deal about the beautiful engraving on a shotgun receiver, the deep bluing on a old revolver or the fine walnut grain on a rifle stock ... before they even talked about how these guns shot ... Now, everyone seems to be talking only about magazine capacity, weaponlights, polymer, tacticality ...

[XLMiguel]

There are always folks who spent too much money "stylin' and profilin'", than putting in time and sweat at developing skills. It ain't the gun, it's teh gunner

- Take golf (a good walk ruined, IMO), how many guys have you seen with expensive clubs who can't break 90? weekend warriors, but do they hit the driving range and hit a couple hundred balls acouple times a week?
- Tennis dweebs that play once/week (sometimes twice but keep showing up with a new $X00 carbon fibre-bighead mega-blaster racquet, but wonder why their game doesn't improve.
Bicycles - the bile path is full of people with $four-figure bikes that can't figure out what gear they need to be in or keep cadence.
- Boats - I was luck enough to be in a club in Chicago that was home to the NA Lightning champion. We had a good sized fleet, but also a lot of folks who only raced on Sundays (also had Wed. & Sat series) but showed up weekly with new little titanium or carbon fibre go-fast do-dads, or sometimes a whole new suit of sails.
-Cars - How many of you Corvette owners really think you cna handle your ride at 176 MPH? How many have actually seen 150+?

Anyhoo, it's the same all over. There's nothing wrong with nice gear, just don't mistake it for skill. The only way you get that is by practicing. A lot. Competent equipment doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. Who would you rather have at your back - a combat proven ace with a $450 SA MilSpec or a doofus with a $3500 race gun?

At this point I'm trying to trim down my collection and learn to shoot my favorites really well, before I buy any new guns for a while (at least until I can handle a SIG Mosquito, and I kinds want an AR-).

Sorry to ramble on, but it is the same all over

[kudu]

Are we seeing more Image and Perceived Image instead of folks really interested in firearms for Metal & Wood ?

Well Steve, there have always been people like you describe in your stories in the shotgun section, and many folks want to look cool and get the guns with all the doodads on them. And it seems lately I have been seeing more and more of them.

My family were never "gun people", dad had a single shot shotgun and a rifle, same as my grandpa did. We were farm folks, I don't know where I got involved with guns so bad. Although later I found out from my grandmother that my great grandad was a shooter and a gunsmith in the depression era. I had simple guns that worked. I never put tons of stuff and fluff on my guns, the occasional bipod, or good scope on rifles, nicer grips on pistols, a good bead on a shotgun. I let my scores do the talking and not fancy accessories .

I will confess that I have 3 black rifles and a Glock or two, but all the rest of my guns are pretty close to original wood and blue., But I'm still fairly young at 37, lots of time to make mistakes. ;)

[pawncop]

To: sm

Another $0.02 worth. Not only do I see the issues you have raised in shooting but in the workplace and everyday life. I'm 54 years young.

I've been a reserve officer for 26 years, I have my basic peace officer license so I'm allowed to carry 24/7. I do carry one the newer weapons' not to be cool, but weight was an issue. My 4506 was too heavy for plainclothes.

I've worked in healthcare for 36 years and if you think the gun industry has gadets and gizmo's you "ain't seen nuthin" like what we have now in moniters and life support equipment.

But in both areas I see a complete lack of the basics. New cops who don't know how to write a complete sentence let alone a proper report. New staff in our ER that can't assess a patient without have $500,000.00 worth of "toys" and then can't make a decision.

I think we are losing the generation who understood the importance of fundamentals and basic ideals. It is hard to stay grounded on principals in a world that is so intent on "what's right right now" and it will change in 20 minutes.

Do not want to end with "doom and gloom". I think the lessons will be learned again. If there is any silver lining to this conflict in Iraq I think it is a situation where many young men are learning the basics and fundamentals as my father and his generation did.

Yours in Service
1601

[sm]

I understand , appreciate, and respect advances in technology. I may only be 50, I do know them outhouses can get mighty cold and the Sears-Roebuck catalog can be a bit rough. :)

Yes there is difference in toting a model 19 all day and a Glock, weight does add up after 12 hours. I have also worked with LEO where using something other than what a Dept issued was advisable, and letting the hair grow and beards. These folks had the basics of LEO down, just had to adapt to environment.


I spent some time in the main OR of a large hospital. I had only the basics if you will. I'd like to think I have street smarts and common sense. We had one guy come down coding , on call Heart Surgeon riding the cart and straddling the bed when they busted in, doing compressions with one hand, and operating the vent with the other.

The Charge nurse freaked, as did the ST's....this guy is gonna die. I grab a kit, whatever gloves handy, doc makes the cut, I massage the heart, with 2 older floor nurses in tow.

This is sterile area, the OR. Doc said in so many words, screw the rules, we have drugs and such, now let us get started while the heart team arrives...I must have massaged that heart for 20 minutes, using only a pair of too big for me Bio-Gels...

Heart team yells at the floor nurses NOT in scrubs, Doc yells back forget it - basics are needed NOW!

WE did the basics until the high tech stuff could be implemented, the heart team gets scrubbed in and the "heart box" ( everything to do surgery) , and the emergency stuff hooked up and cranked up.

The guy made it. None of the floor nurses got into trouble, I just did what needed to be done. Doc commented " you just did the basics, followed my lead and kept cool". Hey I figured gloves were gloves, a scaple a scaple, and a massage was a massage. Never ridden a bed straddling a patient before being wheeled in a fast pace down that hall...Last heart I handled was in Anat & Phys lab...principle the same...


Then again I have seen the folks with "high tech" gear, be it firearms, medical, or whatever not have the slightest clue on the basics.

Perhaps it is cyclic , perhaps not.

[ksnecktieman]

1949 model here, 56 years old. Maybe a lot of what you are seeing is "gamesmanship"? Internet tacticool game, select your weapons and play, pick desert eagle .50, fire six shots and have six dead opponents, select revolver, fire six shots, and have some dead, and some wounded, and some missed, select uzi, and everything in sight is dead. Recoil is the same for the .50 and the .380 on the internet, so recovery time is the same too. Many of them did not have a dad or grandpa to teach them, and now they have to learn it by themselves. The younger generation trying to cross the gap between fantasy and reality?

[RevDisk]

Are we seeing more Image and Perceived Image instead of folks really interested in firearms for Metal & Wood ?

I'm reminded of a line from the movie Airheads, "If it's too loud, you're too old."

Question. When you were my age (23), did you hear the 'old guys' say similiar things about YOUR generation? :neener:

[sm]

Question. When you were my age (23), did you hear the 'old guys' say similiar things about YOUR generation?

That would be 1978 for me. I had graduated HS in '73, so in the summer of '73 I bought MY first 1911, Steel Combat commander. I shot my first 1911 at age six, and I had shot, and carried one for many years, borrowed from my mentors. I finally bought my own is all.

I started with a High Standard Sentinel - brought home from being born, there it was. K frames, lots of model 10's and Model 19's, and 1911s. Rifles were from single shot Win,Rem to model 52's I competed with as a kid, borrowed from Gunny. Model 70's in '06 and Win Model 94 in 30-30 - Just what one did.

At twenty three I had been hanging around older folks and mentors for about 23yrs. :) "Turn down that damn stereo" may have been heard, then again sometimes it was " crank it up" with a classic tune. My mentors drove fast too..."burning daylight - punch it and grab another gear".

Sometimes I'd catch it for my long hair and ponytail, then again some of my mentors had long hair and ponytails. The ones with GI cuts still...make a comment, once in awhile, underneath it was the person and princples - not the appearance.

Nope at 23 I was a character. I'd walk in to some small town pawn shop or gun store, and buy 4 1911s or all the model 10's they had. Came back from a road trip once and had bought 15 guns - cash. 1911s, BHPs, K frames, Model 70's, Model 94's and a used, Ford P/U truck used as farm truck. I'd just gotten a $10Kcash bonus, off paper, and paid cash for a car...needed to make other "investments".

Ran down to Tejas and shot live pigeons for the hell of it, the bets, the ladies and nights partying.

I fit right in with my mentors.

Nope a lot of my mentors had been in harm's way. I was around living, not existing, keeping the home fires burning and doing the right things by folks. They appreciated that,and we hit off just fine.

Got drunk one night and told a jerk I'd shoot him for our car titles.Fella had run off to Canada to avoid the 'Nam mess...insulted my mentors. Decided a beer bottle up the side of his head not a good idea...not to mention the company I was with. So I challenged him. I gave his old Buick to a lady I knew who needed it. She'd lost her hubby in 'Nam, and was in a bad way.


SX1 - Win Custom shop felled them pigeons, and gave me the title.

I still don't recall "why" we shot for and won the title to a little single engine plane, seemed right important to some mentors that we shoot for it...none of us could fly the darn thing.

I dunno - stayed with the same platforms all these years. Guess I never felt "expert" enough to move on to newer stuff until I had what I felt "comfortable " enough for me with the ones I was shooting all the time.

[Azrael256]

I'm 23 as well, and I don't really see much in the way of the tacticality virus in myself or my shooting friends. My last purchase is older than my dad, and it was inspired by my brother's rave review of the gun. He said it's a great rifle (and he knows guns better than most of us), and he was right. I'm interested in guns that work really well, and carbon fiber don't enter into it.

I think I can speak for Dionysusigma being of the same mindset. He's 21, and the guns he owns are in his posession because he likes them and they work. I have seen him shoot, and I can say that every bit of skill he has came exclusively from many hours pounding away at a plain paper target with something quite ordinary. Our mutual friend, Q-dog (that's just his nickname... well, ok, it's my nickname for him), also buys guns that just work. Nothing fancy.

On our last range excursion (we call them therapy sessions), we encountered a fellow shooting something that was only identifiable as an M1A by the ammunition box. During a magazine loading break, I happened to chat with this fellow. He was quite knowledgeable about all the fancy bits of his parkerized and carbon fibered contraption, but I heard not a word about how it shoots. Judging by his target, either he was testing out some entirely new somethingorother, or his rifle's price was not matched by his skill.

[Jeff White]

Charlie Beckwith supposedly said that you "had to master the conventional before you could think unconventionally" or words to that effect. For those of you who don't know, Charlie Beckwith was a highly decorated Special Forces officer, who conceived the unit that people in the military don't really talk about but they have made movies and books about.

All of the so called high speed low drag training I've ever participated in was really nothing more then the basics applied really well.

Noted trainer Jim Crews said;
There is no such thing as an advanced class in any weapons training program, there are just different ways to apply the basics.

In my experience there aren't any super training programs and there is no piece of equipment that you can buy that will make you excell at any shooting discipline. Maybe you are a natural. There are people who are natural shooters, just like the there are people who naturally excell at some other sports.

But, I don't think that we should lament the fact that we have gear queers or ninja wannabes in our midst. The shooting sports need everyone who is a safe and responsible shooter. If a guy wants to spend 5K on a tricked out M4gery with a PEQ-2 on the RAS, and show up at the range in his new Crye Multicam Combat suit, with a Paraclete RAV including SAPI plates to carry his spare magazines, and stand at the firing line and blast 1K of Wolf ammo from the hip, so what.....As long as he does it safely, who cares, let him enjoy the sport. You know maybe some young man or woman will see him unloading all his tacticool stuff to carry into the house and actually ask to go shooting...

I think that if we start getting elitist about any aspect of the shooting sports we just divide ourselves further.

An interest in one aspect of shooting can only lead to an interest in others. I started out with combat type weapons, they were and are the tools of my trade. Now I find myself wanting vintage military weapons from about 1750 thru WWII. And a classy O/U shotgun.

Jeff

[Guy B. Meredith]

As stated several ways above, mage and gear have always been an item. The main difference now is that marketing has commoditized image--you can buy it in a bubble pack. There are people who will run out and buy the latest and greatest gear for whatever--computers, sports, cars--whether they need it or are even capable of using it.

I am 59 and tend to rebel against image, group cool and marketing big time. If something is really useful that is okay, but image just doesn't figure on my shopping list.

A couple of examples. I gloried in finding a 1985 Fuji bicycle NIB in 2000 and am constantly amazed by the gear freaks, 85% or better of whom are not as capable as this total non athlete on his ancient steed. I shoot a revolver and, just like the 1985 Fuji, basic solid performance is what it is all about.

There are some that get into the gear for the sake of fascination with the technology rather than image. That is an understandable interest. Those that go after image for their egos will have to look elsewhere for admiring attention. Just doesn't register with me.

[JohnBT]

I've devised a test. Would you rather shoot in a match with a Winchester Model 52 or one of these...

http://www.championshooters.com/1907_2213.JPG

[Double Maduro]

JohnBT,

I've devised a test. Would you rather shoot in a match with a Winchester Model 52 or one of these...

Depends on which one I shoot the best scores with.



I was shooting trap one day and got to talking to an older fellow about the tricked out guns some of the guys were using. His comment was, "if you told them that by standing on their heads and filling their butts with concrete, they would break 1 extra bird a round, half of them would try it".

There is nothing wrong with new technology. If it works for you, go for it.

I have a Remington 870 that has 2 barrels and has been used for everything from chukar to duck and trap. A couple of years ago I started to feel guilty about having that wood stock in the rain and muck of the duck blind, plus I wanted to shoot 3" shells and maybe 3.5" from time to time. So I bought a Benelli Nova.

Do I like it as much as the 870? Almost.

Is it as pretty? Almost, with it's camo finish.

Is it as durable? Yes. I will know more in about 20 years, that's how old the 870 is.

Do I feel bad about using a new synthetic uber elite special shotgun instead of the traditional wood and steel? Not for a second.

Do you feel guilty about using a car instead of a horse and buggy? Of course not.

Change for change sake is one thing, change for better function is something else entirely.

DM

[sm]

Charlie Beckwith supposedly said that you "had to master the conventional before you could think unconventionally" or words to that effect.-Jeff White

There is no such thing as an advanced class in any weapons training program, there are just different ways to apply the basics. -Jim Crews

Mr. White...oh forgot you work for a living - :)

I agree with the quotes above. I agree that there is enough folks in various firearms disciplines that do more negative than positive for RBKA and such. Sheesh, I shot Skeet ( just to name one competition) and these folks were bad about talking down any other shooting sport, and " "they" won't come for my shotgun, what do I care about assault rifles?"

I of all folks know one cannot change people, places and things. Acceptance is the key.

Hey, I have no pride, someone has a new gun, say a race gun like a Caspian 9x23, I'll have the biggest grin burning rds downrange. Not my game per se' - don' t mean I can't shoot one, or enjoy it.

Hand me something I have no idea anything about. I'll say so. Shw me the MOA, how to make safe, and the history, the why's and whatnots, I'll listen and be honored to shoot it.

Never knew .50's at 750 yds could be so much fun. :D
Busting that big ol rock, and the brass is easy to find on the ground.
Still say no way to conceal one of the darn things...dunno how the gang-bangers do it. :D

I just waited for the recoil like I do on Model 70 in '06 is all.

Its all good.

[Correia]

I love Jeff's post above. :)

Steve, you know me. I'm a bit of an abberation. I love all guns. New, old, fancy, shiney, drab, whatever. As long as it shoots, I like it. My personal thing is 3gun and IDPA type stuff, so my criteria when it comes to gizmos is A. does it make me shoot better/faster/more accurately. or B. Does it not help. If A, then it is good. If B, then it is not. I don't give a care what anybody thinks about my guns, unless they can beat me, then I pay attention.

I'm a tinkerer. I'll try anything. But at the same time, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I've gotten a pretty decent grasp on the fundamentals.

Now I've said this in shotguns, I'm seeing this lately on THR, this kind of rebellion against anything black/tactical/modern/plastic, and a kind of belief that somehow those of us with these guns are somehow compensating for our lack of skill. DON'T MAKE THAT MISTAKE.

Sure, there are some guys out there who are exactly what Steve is talking about. No skill, fancy guns. But don't assume that everybody with the space gun can't shoot. Some of us have done plenty of time with the basic metal and wood, and now we like to push the limits with plastic and holographic sites.

I don't care one iota if a guy's gun is goofy looking, or spacy, or racey, or has trinkets on it. My only care is if I can beat the other guy. If I find a trinket that helps me go .02 faster, I'll buy it. :)

And I'm bummed. This is the time of year with all the good matches, and I've got a stupid hernia, and am not allowed to lift my 3gun rifle. :p (which by the way, currently has wood, but the new one has a rail system, so there!)

[sm]

<looks UP at Larry> Literally and figurativly.

Hey I'm the guy that sent Larry a ...what - a 20 rd mag extension? How is that thing coming along anyway? :D

How does a guy your size get a hernia? Don't tell me you forgot what I told you about changing diapers on a boy...not quick enough were ya? :p

Seriously -

I think I finally nailed what all my concerns about. Been eating at me for a bit, and goes much deeper than just guns.

The loss of craftsmanship, pride of using quality metallurgy to craft fine firearms, hand engraving, you name it. The fact as these craftsman die off - no one to pass forward and retain for future needs.

Many factories no longer send out quality, they expect the consumer to beta test it.

With the marketing and information age [ Internet] spurring on the new stuff, there is no need to keep up the quality, maintain quality, or keep the craftsman of yesteryear - much less support new folks to take their places as the retire or pass on.

I guess I'm feeling afraid, sad, angry, that folks have lost sight of a revolver, how to use it, and the quality of manufacture. Instead of the basics of reliabilty, we have rd count and caliber wars. Lost sight of something...

I figured out why a synthetic stocked 1100 set up for 3 gun would not run for the owner. Ran for me, would not for him.

This is the second one that I've seen with a 20 ga carrier in a 12 ga gun. Just looking at it - hard to tell. Pull the carrier from another, set side by side...plain as day. Replace it...no more problems.

Again in the last two days I was turned down for a job I wanted. Part because of 'sins of the father", most often reason , I am older than the mgr, or whomever in charge. I might make them feel bad with my years of experience and use of street smarts and common sense. "We don't want free thinkers, we want folks to do what the Protocol says - even if wrong".

sigh...

Anyone in TX or AZ wanna "Pirate Looks at Forty" ?
How about the Sandbox? Occupation being - occupation ain't one no more.

The "stuff" is supposed to do it. If it don't , you have an excuse.

sigh...

[benEzra]

I think we have two currents going on here, (1) related to aesthetics (blued steel and wood vs. high-tech finishes and polymer) and (2) related to high-tech gizmos.

I personally don't care at all for the blued-steel-and-wood aesthetic, and consider a basic AR-15 more attractive than a Ruger No. 1. My favorite rifle is a SAR-1, which I consider quite attractive in a functional/mechanical sort of way.

Certainly the latest gee-whiz gizmos are interesting from a technological standpoint, and a physics/tech geek such as myself might be interested in one just for the novelty. (I actually don't own any, but I think holosights and such are neat.) On the other hand, some gizmos like red-dot sights can offer demonstrable improvements in the firearm's utility, and I don't think that someone who uses one is necessarily compensating for lack of skill, but may simply shoot even better with one than without.

[Jeff White]

Steve,
People haven't lost sight of the craftsmanship and engineering that goes into a fine firearm. I think that the true firearms student appreciates everything from the beauty of rich charcoal blue, color case hardening and walnut stocks of a well preserved SAA to the beauty of the utilitarian ergonomics of an AR.

I have a rack full of black rifles (well a couple of them are OD green ;)) but one of my favorite rifles is an old Stevens Favorite with an octogon barrel. I gave $25 for it all covered in surface rust. A good cleaning of the metal and wood, reblued the barrel and trigger guard/lever, some brasso on the buttplate and to really trick it out, had a friend who does jewelry repair, plated the receiver in gold for me. The old rifle looks pretty good now. The receiver almost matches the brass buttplate and the octogon barrel in a deep blue provides a nice contrast.

No one has lost sight of how to use a revolver. I carry one every day of my life as a BUG. You know as well as I do how important reliability is. I've said it before in other threads, but I'll say it agian here, just to remind you...If I had to pick someone to accompany me into harms way, and my choices were a person who read all the gun rags, had the latest Colt AR with an LMT 10" CQB upper with an AN/PEQ-2 on the top rail, a SureFire 9v light on the 3 o'clock rail, an Aimpoint on the upper receiver, a Magpul adjustable stock, and a Wilson CQB in his Safariland 6004, but his life experinces were playing counterstrike and Ghost Recon and blasting copious amounts of ammuntion down range and bragging how kewl it sounded when he bump fired his semi autos....or a middle aged guy who showed up with an old model 10 with most of the bluing worn off and the action as smooth as glass from 10s of thousands of rounds and a well worn 870 with a slug barrel and a pouch on his hip full of buckshot and slugs, and who's life experience consisted of living with those two weapons on a daily basis....I'm picking the middle aged guy to go into harms way with every time.....The man wins the fight...not the tools...Jeff

[Chris Rhines]

Longbaugh: These days, they want to be criminals more than they want to commit crime.
Joe Sarno: Well that's... that's not just crime. That's the way of the world.
Taken from The Way of the Gun.

sm, you're right, of course. Modern Western culture places much more emphasis on image than on substance. I don't know if I agree with you that this is a recent event, but I could be wrong - I'm 26, and haven't exactly had a lot of time to observe and contemplate cultural changes...

I like to think that I've managed to avoid this trend. When I first started getting interested in guns and shooting, my Dad steered me towards competition shooting - Skeet, NRA Smallbore Rifle, ISU Air Pistol. Later, on my own, I drifted into ISU Standard and Free Pistol, NRA Conventional Pistol, and now USPSA/3-Gun. Games, yeah, but games with objective criteria for being "good." No matter how good you look, at the end of the match the scores get tallied up, and the winner goes home with the trophy. There are no bonus points for style.

I've always wondered how/why Dad pointed me in the direction he did - he didn't have any competition background, and wasn't really into guns until I was.

Perhaps he knew something I didn't. Wouldn't be the first time...

- Chris

[Arc-Lite]

SM.....Knowing the world of yesterday and seeing the world as it is today, keeps the perspectives, ballanced, if you deny the reality of life, you appreciate it less....we may intellectually know that all tings change, yet we desperately deny this truth... a denial that leads to anxiety, fear, and confusion...I do not think the problems is change, but that we try to live...as if they didn't. I sometimes walk, in the woods with my Crown Grade L.C.Smith...was my birth present... might shoot it, but the day is usually to peaceful, and the quiet is too comforting. All the craftsmanship is still alive... wthin the eyes of the ones that are able to see.

[sm]

:D
I think what he is trying to say I'm old , and I missed out on redeeming my Middle Age Crazy stuff: the coupon for the Ferrai and cute young brunette has expired - get over it. :D

Gotta admit, thread topic is a nice change from 9mm vs 45 ACP.... :)

I appreciate all the replies, sincerely I do. I am guilty of being "traditional" and maybe "sentimental" - won't deny it. I have my druthers, still prefer to teach a new shooter with .22 revo, been known to start 'em with wadcutters in .38 spl....been known to start a new shooter with a Glock 26 :eek: Yep - didn't get hit by bolts of lightning or nothing.

Just would like to know that folks are getting the basics and continuing to improve is all. I still reserve the right to fuss. You gotta a right to fuss back.

< shakes that wood and blue shotgun> Now git out of my yard...that brunette might show up yet and can't have that bling bling giving bad ideas about me.

Where is my Reprobate Cert btw?
;)

[Arc-Lite]

SM....I know a bit about change.... but I am wise enough, to say I know nothing about brunettes.

[sm]

Hey I admit I have yet to figure out brunettes, blondes, or red-heads. Any combo thereof.

I was married to a red-head once....err...arrrgghh

Blondes are fine.

I just prefer Brunettes. Nothing wrong with continuing to learn about 'em - don't ever expect to figure them out tho'.

Kinda like Shotguns, handguns and rifles...I will never learn all there is to know about them - don't mean I can't still learn tho' . I just prefer to kinda focus on certain platforms and caliber's is all.

[Arc-Lite]

SM..your trying to compare tomatos and trombones...the base of the learning curve stays the same with shotguns, handguns and rifles... but, as with anything alive, the base of the learning is theory..... by staying up, and at bat, you can either hit the ball, or not, but a new pitch is coming....it always does.