Do you use a night stand gun around kids?

[Boats]

Before I had kids, I’d put a 1911 on my night stand and go to sleep knowing I had a weapon that I could fight my way to my shotgun with.

And while my kids weren’t walking around too much, I kept with that system, but moved the pistol into the drawer. However, every now and then, my then-three year old would come into our room in the middle of the night. I wasn't worried about shooting him, I became concerned that he is just too darn quiet. He doesn’t raise the hue and cry of the dogs, and he doesn’t call out. He just gets up and pads on in. Sometimes he crawls into bed, and others he’ll gently shake me or Mom and whisper something about monsters or whatever. We thought about closing the door, but we'd have to lock it, and we both disliked that option for reasons of the dogs, cats, and getting the door thumped on is even more startling than encountering my son.

Anyways, he started doing this about six months ago, so it prompted a discussion about the night stand gun. With the night sights on it, arguably it is something that could be toyed with in the dark. So I went and tried every quick access safe I could get a hand on. I settled on a Gun Vault.

I hate it. There is nothing wrong with the safe, it is more that the concept doesn’t work for me. Some nights I’d wake up, and just to see it work under “real world conditions� fumble with the safe for what seemed an eternity, only to realize I was blowing the sequence while coming to alert status. I don’t see how another product short of one with biometrics would do any better. I have looked into biometrics and I am always put off by the fact that they come with “emergency override keys.� The vault is now for locking up my CCW for when I encounter forbidden territory.

So I have employed a new night stand weapon and strategy altogether. I took my Mossberg out of the big safe and mounted it on the wall above the inside of the closet door with two cut down bicycle hooks so that I just pop it up and off and I am good to go.

A Ka-Bar Black Fighter now resides on the night stand, a proverbial black cat in a dark room which is still a very easy knife to index by touch and certainly more than lethal enough for anything short of certain bears.

Am I wrong to not be losing any sleep over the switch? It has been about four months now and not having the pistol on or in the night stand seems to bother me not at all. Sure it is conceivable that I might be taking a knife to a gun fight if said fight begins in my bedroom, but we certainly feel better about our now four year old wandering son who is not reliably “gun-proofed� yet, (not for lack of trying, but for his age), and the shotgun, a much more potent weapon, is only two strides, and no combination, away.

[pax]

Um. You worried about your four year old picking up a gun, so you replaced it with a big, sharp knife?

pax

[sm]

I am single, no kids of my own.

I have the Simplex Gun vault. I have used this system for years, not only for home, but vehicles and offices. Many times I am more concerned about adults, than kids.
I don't do battery anything, be it small gun vaults,or big safes.

Kids- I had a stepson once, and I have neices, nephews and friends with kids.

Education of the kids was my first rule. I was able to educate my stepson, the rest of my so called family...err...forget them.

With folks with kids, we did the Eddie Eagle , and educated. Usually take a .22 short and shoot a can of soda...kid realizes that itty bitty ctg is dangerous and they inspect the can. Shaken, not stirred, really warm aids this visual lesson.

I do have another "vault" of sorts that uses a key. I don't choose to reveal on the internet as to what it is tho'.

I kept my gun on my side and the wife at the time had hers on her side. We locked our door.

Folks with younger kids - yes they need thier parents at night.

I prefer the firearm on person at all times around kids at home. You have to take a shower, use a lock box, bathroom door locks do find a way of getting opened,especially if more than one access.

Got a sick kid and up all night, get dressed, then put on the gun. If an emergency comes up ( high fever) you are ready to roll. Only delay is the taking off to enter ER,that is where having a vault in vehicle is good.

Educate the kids. I am of the opinion BGs will use the kids or eldery in a family - to their advantage if can.

"They will have guns locked up and put away..."

I trump the odds in my favor is all.

Currently, many nights I sleep in the living room in a chair dressed and armed. Some stuff going on in the area and well...I like the odds on my side, element of surprise too.

[Guns_and_Labs]

I find the Gun Vault works fine for me. Of course, I do rely on the dog to give me a few seconds warning...but it takes me longer to get my eyes to open than it does to work the sequence on the Gun Vault.

What's wrong with the biometrics ones, though? I'm not sure I understand your objection.

[Old Fuff]

Your problems are going to get worse as the boy gets older, until he is old enough to understand what your are trying to teach him about gun safety and be able to retain it.

I don't know if I like the knife idea - he could get into trouble with that too. Possibly you might consider a semi-automatic pistol that had a magazine disconect safety (Browning, S&W, etc.) where you left the chamber loaded but the magazine out of the pistol. In addition you could leave the hammer down on a S&W with the safety on. That would require flipping the safety off and pulling the trigger double-action. Normally I don't like this solution, but I think it might work for you.

Another option would be an unloaded double-action revolver with speed-loaders nearby - possibly above the bed where he couldn't get to them without going over you.

It is encouraging to see you are worried. Too many parents aren't.

[Boats]

Um. You worried about your four year old picking up a gun, so you replaced it with a big, sharp knife?

Yep, an aftermarket kydex sheathed one that a child would have momentary difficulty with and makes an audible snick releasing the blade. First, unlike the glowing night sights, he's unlikely to see it as our room is very dark at night. Second, a trip to the ER for a self-inflicted knife wound is explicable in a way a gun shot wound would never be. Third, he's unlikely to kill himself fooling around with a knife if it came to that. In fact, he is conceptually more knife than gun savvy because the knife is inherently simple to demonstrate compared to even a simple power demonsration of a gun.

For example, I cut up some old clothing with the Ka-Bar to demonstrate that it was sharp. I then cut up a watermelon. We cut many of his meals together with butter and steak knives, or occassionally something larger, like an RTAK on a pineapple. He gets it that knives cut things and to not use one without me.

I demonstrated my .357 Magnum on a watermelon and chunked it pretty good and violently. With his earplugs in and ears on for watching auto racing, he just thinks it is cool and doesn't quite make the connection that what is going on is dangerous and lethal. It is loud and cool and when is it his turn? The occasional TV "shootings" I can't seem to realistically bar, particularly the depictions of squirt guns or "laser" beams, don't help a bit. I can demonstrate a knife every evening at dinner.

Since the pistol was only ever intended to cover the time it took to get a real CQB weapon, I don't think I give up all that much making my "contact weapon" the same type countless Marines counted on to get them through the night in the Pacific and Korea. I do gain a good margin for error on the accidental death and dismemberment front though.

For those interested, my objection to biometrics is the very fact that those systems sport "emergency override keys" which would only be used in the event of a catastrophic failure of the input system.

[hso]

What's your alternative? Would you're family hold up under the horror of your child being shot by a gun you kept against some improbable intruder? You would have lost everything you thought you were trying to protect and almost at your own hands.

As to the knife. You're better off investing in even a simple alarm system than keeping it accessable. If you're concerned about your child getting to your handgun you should be concerned about him getting to the knife. I collect knives. I've probably got more than a hundred of them. They're in my office in a cabinet, up on high shelves and beyond the reach of anyone less than 5 feet in height. My 6 year old daughter even has a collection of custom knives, but it stays under glass and she has to get the key from me to unlock her display case. That is except for one knife that was in a tape sealed display for her to take to school and one of her "little friends" who has been taught not to touch any of my knives pealed the tape off and opened the case and cut herself, thankfully not badly enough to require stitches, in spite of her father, mother, my daughter and me showing her my knives and getting repeated promises to ask to see anything and assurances that she knew they were sharp and pointy and dangerous. And she's 6. Don't treat the knife any more lightly than the gun just because it's more difficult for him to kill himself or you by accident. If he pulls it and drops it point first on his foot you could be looking at kissing his future star athlete status goodby.

[goalie]

The mechanical quick-access handgun lock-boxes are, IMO, much better than the electronic ones.

My box with the Simplex buttons on it has worked for me for many years now.

This is the type, although mine is a different model:

http://lock-depot.com/scripts/prodview.asp?idProduct=232

[Arc-Lite]

Boats...tuff one for a good workable answer.... between the mattress and box springs maybe, in at bed time out at dawn... carry on bag, with snap and zipper, bag hooked to the bed itself... on top of something near the bed.... much taller then your son... or a 1911, mag in, or out, slide back...point being, out of battery.

[Boats]

I tried one of those mechanical touch safes in the shop. What doesn't work so well is me, not the safes. I am always a little bit groggy when waking up except for when adrenaline hits my system. If adrenaline is going to make me alert enough to take two or so seconds to get a touch safe open and present a pistol, it will make me alert enough to retrieve my shotgun in those same two or so seconds and slide off the tang safety. :)

[anapex]

Yes. Israeli style in the holster on the nightstand. My boys are 3 and 4, they can barely push the magazine release button with help let alone pull the slide back to chamber a round. Once they start being able to do that it'll spend more time in the GunVault. Teaching them about gun safety is one thing but giving strict consequences for breaking your rules about them is another. A few test cases where you have to you "The Voice" is usually enough at the younger ages.

[dave3006]

If you are not awake enough to get your gun out of a safe, you are not awake enough to have one in your hands.

Visualize how you will feel and the pain he will suffer if he gets your gun and shoots himself.

I have kids. My guns are in a puss button safe. I have a baseball bat for emergencies that I can't get my gun.

[mtnbkr]

Push button safe. I don't even leave "unloaded" guns where my 20 month old daughter *might* get hold of them.

IMO, the likelyhood that your home will be invaded at night while you're asleep is lower than the likelyhood that your young child might get hold of an unsecured gun IMO. Until they're old enough to train effectively, I'd keep it locked up when not on your person (or in pieces on your workbench).

FWIW, I keep my CCW weapon in the same safe as well. That way, I build muscle memory punching in the code. Opening my safe is as automatic as opening a door.

Chris

[Walt Sherrill]

I hate it. There is nothing wrong with the safe, it is more that the concept doesn’t work for me. Some nights I’d wake up, and just to see it work under “real world conditions� fumble with the safe for what seemed an eternity, only to realize I was blowing the sequence while coming to alert status. I don’t see how another product short of one with biometrics would do any better. I have looked into biometrics and I am always put off by the fact that they come with “emergency override keys.� The vault is now for locking up my CCW for when I encounter forbidden territory.If you have trouble getting the safe open, what kind of problems could you have with a loaded gun in your hand -- and the need to act clearly and responsibly?

I have a small gunsafe (buttons on the top) screwed to the floor in our bedroom, two steps from the bed. I could have put it closer -- but think the risk is greater closer than farther away -- just for the reason you cite.

Keeping the gun unloaded, with mag nearby might be a compromise, but I like it ready to go, when I'm finally ready to go... and I have no concerns about kids or unwanted visitors getting it.

[armoredman]

My solution with my 4 year old. He has to make commotion to crawl over us. Easy to get to, relatively secure, and invisable with covers/pillows in place.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/284801.JPG (http://www.hunt101.com/?p=284801&c=500&z=1)

[Guns_and_Labs]

Boats, I'm still not understanding your objection..

For those interested, my objection to biometrics is the very fact that those systems sport "emergency override keys" which would only be used in the event of a catastrophic failure of the input system.


All the electronic safes, biometric or not, have mechanical backups. On my Gun Vault, it's a necessary feature for those that forget to change the batteries.

Is your objection that the existence of a mechanical backup indicates to you a propensity to malfunction, and therefore unreliability?

If so, you might still look at the mechanical lockboxes, i.e. V Line. If you're awake enough to hold a gun, you ought to be awake enough to work the lock, I would think. I think you can even set them up for a single keystroke, so no "sequence". You can with Gun Vault.

[secamp32]

not being able to get to a unlocked shotgun just because its mounted high up. I found 1 of my kids stacking boxes and chairs to reach something that was placed "Out of their reach" Every gun should be locked up with kids in the house. We don't want to see another "Gun tragedy" on the tv news.

The simplex lock boxes might be better for you because they are easier to reset if you make a mistake entering the combo. The gunvault is a PITA if you push the wrong button.

[Boats]

FWIW the shotgun is not chambered.

[Polishrifleman]

There is a strong fascination between Men and Fire :fire: . The same fascination is there between Men and guns :evil: . I would love to video tape the ways my 4yr old would try and get a gun off a high shelf or wall mount. I can see it now, tossing the end of a belt, stacking boxes, throwing shoes, using the shelves door knob and drawer pulls as a makeshift ladder :cool: . Luckily he knows better and the opportunity is not there.

Don't know your bedroom situation in the house but our sons room is across the hall from ours, about 10 feet from our bed. Our door is left open at night and his is closed, thus the door opening is a good wakeup.

It is a tough call, Good Luck I like armoredman's set up. Whatever you decide on, make sure there is a plan behind it. You sound very prepared and will run situationals keep that up and then the surprise will be on your side.

[Elmer]

No kiddees at my house, so my old trusty model 10 is in a holster attached to the back of nightstand, along with a Streamlight tac light. It can (and has) sit loaded for years with no attention, yet I know it's going to work if I need it. 6 rounds of Gold Dot's new 135 grain .38's should get me to the hidden 870 if I still need to keep shooting.

If someone should get past the alarm, etc, and break in during the day, and they find it, I'm out a gun I paid 35 dollars for.

[pax]

My solution to the problem is to keep my bedroom door locked at night, with my pistola sitting in its holster in an open lockbox. If the kids knock on the door or otherwise let us know they need attention, I reach over and lock the case before opening the bedroom door. If I leave the room for some other reason, I either take the gun with me or lock it up.

Had to explain to the dog that she'd have to sleep somewhere else, and the cats were mad at me for a week because of the closed door, but other than that it's worked well.

pax

[115grfmj]

Two girls under 5yrs (3rd on the way). Kids are capable of just about anything
you are, meaning the only thing seperating the ability of their minds, and yours is experience. That being said think of what they can do, thru the prism
of what you might be able to do.

I keep my 686+ in a night stand safe in the top drawer of my dresser, I figure
even though it will take longer to employ it, and I might get shot going
for it. Its my job to sacrifice, and nothing is more horrible to a parent
than to lose a child, I'd rather be dead.

Also dicuss with your spouse, the possibility of her going for the gun while
you do a little delaying action.

[Swamprabbit]

Guns should be unavailable to small children. Period! When mine were small, I kept even my carry ones locked up in some type of cabinet when I was either away or asleep. Even today, only my carry gun is out of the safe and if I don't take it with me when I leave the house (for any reason) it, too, gets locked up.

As for bedside guns, I have a philosophy about that too. I don't know about you all but if I'm awaken at 2:00 AM on a night late in a week full of work, baseball, church, and yardwork, I'm not real clear minded for the first few moments. I would hate to have to make life/death decisions with a gun in my hand for those first few moments. For that reason, I don't keep a gun beside my bed but, rather, in a location across the room. This way, by the time I jump up and cross the room, I've started to wake up.

Glad you are taking your kid's safety first!!!

[Dave Markowitz]

armoredman,

For a second there I thought you had a holstered gun in your kid's crib. :what:

Then I saw that's your headboard. :D Nice idea, there.

[pete f]

As i have listed in the past, my night guns are up high, on the inside of the closet door over the top of it, my kids never knew it was there till they were old enough to know where they were. A cruiser ready shotgun, and a 1911 gov;t. both over seven feet high, and both attached to a big magnet plate, it takes a firm pull to get them loose.

The Idea of a S&W auto with the mag under your pillow or a hi power the same way is a good idea, too. safe without the mag in to reset the disconnector, and yet fully good to go upon seating the magaazine.

As my kids are older now, I have a fobus holster screwed to the back of the nightstand with a commander sitting in it you can not see it unless you get on the bed and pull away the covers. If you are good about it, you can putone there every night as you go to sleep then put iot away as you get up.
but i like the high distance way better

[Ozendorph]

My main concern in having unlocked firearms stashed in my bedroom or anywhere else, is the chance that a burgler might discover the gun while looting my house while we're away at work/school. We live in a good neighborhood, but no one is immune to this sort of activity.

I've considered removing my .40 from the safe nightly and returning it in the morning, and that may ultimately be the best solution. I just have to be very consistent in this ritual.

In the meantime, I keep a sharp Estwing hatchet and a 3-cell maglite handy for all my bump-in-the-night needs. Our home is small, and the short, narrow hall connecting the bedrooms to the common areas serves to mitigate the advantages of a firearm.

[hso]

This looks pretty good if it actually works- http://www.buyasafe.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=445

Hang a picture over it with a hinge to swing aside to keep it out of sight and slap a finger on the scanner. If the scanner fails to read punch the code.

Alternately, use a key system and wear the key 24/7 so that fumbling fingers and blurry vision are less of an issue.

Regardless, unless the gun goes with you or the child goes with you, if both are unatteded for more than a few minutes there is nothing to keep them apart except luck and locks.

[dwestfall]

A P7M8 or leaving the chamber empty would be reasonably safe to leave on the nightstand for a few years. A 4 year old is not going to have the hand strength or dexderity to chamber a round.

That said I have a 4yr old and I like the safes from handgunsafe.com. Like you I was prone to bungle the combination with the GunVault, and would have to wait what seemed like forever to get another chance. With the Simplex safes you just twist the lever and can try again right away.

But I wonder -- if you can't work the combination of the safe because you're too groggy, do you really want a gun in your hand with a mobile 4yr old possibly running around in the dark?

[MikeIsaj]

GET A DOG! A big, protective, loud and intimidating dog. We have a large German Shepherd free roaming in the house. My plan is that while he's eating whoever was stupid enough to come into his house, I will retrieve a gun from the safe, in case he needs my help.

Seriously, a good dog is the best frontline protection for your family and your castle. A good dog will adopt your children and give their life in defense of the kids.

[Konall]

About the shotgun on high hooks in the closet...
provided I have this attachment process down, I've attached a photo of my son at age 3 (almost 4) going for the high shelf (7+ feet) in my closet. He stealthily stacked the blocks up and had almost made it to the shelf by the time I interrupted him. Just relying on height alone is nowhere near effective if my kids want something.

My guns live in a locked cabinet. I have a 120lb dog who likes to sleep in front of the door, and is LOUD if disturbed. She's a coward, but my hope is that her barking will distract any goblins long enough for me to get the cabinet open.

[B.FRANKlin]

The very best thing to do for your child is to teach them about guns, both the fun things and the dangers. Start the very young with a BB gun then as they grow, get them the time-honored .22.
There is the stupid commercial locally shown about a 10 year old hiding under a bed while playing soldiers and finding Dad's .44 revolver. He grabs it and shoots his buddy. This should never happen in real life, and wouldn't happen if the kid was taught about guns in the first place.
The best place to keep a loaded gun is with you. I love my Irish Setter but I wouldn't want him hurt by some idiot criminal. The best way to treat a criminal in your house is to shoot them dead. That way, they won't rob anybody else and, being dead, they can't sue you . Teach your kids well sue fun and dangers. Teach the fun and dangers T

[Boats]

I should have made it clear that the shotgun is only hung at night. I think I'd hear a mountaineering expedition into my closet. ;) During the day it is in the safe.

[armoredman]

I should mention that my headboard holster is only used at nighttime. My PO1 is on me all the rest of the time, except in the shower, when it is hidden in there, and the bedroom door locked.
My son has zero curiosity about our guns - he knows where the rifles are, he sees the pistols, he's handled them, and knows if he wants to handle one, we will allow him to do so, unloaded, under our immediate supervision. He goes to the range with us every time we go, and loves it.
Gunproofing our kid one day at a time...he uses his cap gun to demonstrate safety...

[Cap n Ball]

No kids in the house. I keep the bedroom door locked if I get visited by nephews. Instead of a shotgun I have a 1842 model smoothbore military 'horse pistol' loaded with 50 grains of BP. It works like a sawed-off with buck and ball. I keep it slung in a leather thimble within easy reach on the headboard. Got a real nasty pattern and I figure that's better than trying to hit someone in the dark with a .54 cal ball that might go into the neighbor's house. With a tounge of flame reaching fifteen feet, even if I miss I'll still set them on fire. :eek:

[Walt Sherrill]

Teaching your kids about guns is absolutely essential, but it doesn't reduce the real risks to family and finances unless you totally keep all other kids out of your house. Your kids' friends and visitors can and will explore, while visiting (while going to the bathroom, etc.), and you really don't want to go where they can take you.

Get a small gun safe that YOU'RE comfortable with. There are many options, levels of technology, and price ranges -- but its a minor cost compared to the costs of things going wrong.

If there are kids in the house, I would argue that a small safe, near at hand is the only realistic and practical solution to a problem that can have horrible consequences.

[antarti]

Well, as the adoptive father of 2 very damaged kids from Eastern Europe, let me tell you how I manage.

(the kids)
My kids are VERY disruptive, they are not the types to be trusted, and may not be even after years of therapy. I bought them (ages 6 and 3) a 2000 count box of Legos, they immediately turned all of them into 15 or 20 "pistolen" and "avtomats" and went around telling the whole family they were going to kill them. Their fave game is "the soldiers come, they kill everyone, and throw the bodies in the garbage, repeat". Not kids to leave around guns for sure. Before these kids can be educated about gun safety, they have to be educated in "normal life", so the "Eddie the Eagle" thing is a waste for now. Believe me when I tell you (and it pains me), my kids are worse than yours in this regard...

(my solution)
As far as long guns, they are in a safe, locked car trunk in a locked garage, or OFF PREMISES. No chances are taken, period. I have 3 pistols on premises, ALL of which I carry on me during daylight hours using a couple of different holsters. Each hand has a go-to weapon, and theres a single (small) back-up if the two-fisted treatment isn't enough. Wifey has her own routine that she is comfortable with.

When i get home, 2 of those get locked up, the other one goes into a large smartcarry, with each side "pinned" for either of the primary guns (9mm or 45), so I can choose which to sleep with.

Yeah, its a huge PITA, but I'm not taking chances, whether protecting the kids from further problem adults, or protecting them from themselves.

If you have doubts, I recommend you carry 24/7. Nobody is going to steal it that way, it's always ready, and the kids will be safe. YOU however will be inconvencied, but peace of mind is more important to me.

[entropy]

Good on ya, antarti, for the labor of love you have undertaken. I hope they are able to respond to the love you show them, and they grow into decent people.
I will be expanding my safe storage when I move this coming month, but I've been storing my non-HD weapons with the bolts (Most of them are Bolt actions, I collect Mosins) or firing pins removed, and stored in the safe. The HD weapons are stored so as to be ready for action immediately, yet safely stored. My sons (11 & 7) are well-trained in firearms safety, and while I cannot trust them to clean their rooms :rolleyes: , I can trust them not to touch any guns unless I am there, or in defending the household as my older son has been trained to. (His mother can't be relied on to do so, a situation I am trying to correct, but I have to take it slow, unfortuately.)

[duck hunt]

Our gun storage methods are about to change a LOT when Suleiman the Destroyer arrives in August. NOTHING will be unlocked.

Getting a dog is a good solution for dog people, but if you are not, it is a disservice to the dog. They are living, loving beings, not tools.

And, before I close, I wanted to add another "Good on ya" to Antarti. As a teacher who has worked with a number of abandoned/abused/refugee children, I raise my glass to you.

[BlackCat]

I don't even leave "unloaded" guns where my 20 month old daughter *might* get hold of them.

You're worried about a kid that may or may not even be able to walk yet loading, flipping the safety off, and discharging a firearm?

Better safe than sorry, but that's overly paranoid in my eyes.

[Walt Sherrill]

Black Cat:

Kids have a way of growing up very, very quickly.

And other kids visiting the house can go places they don't belong.

[Gunsnrovers]

At night, the revolver, a speed strip, and a flashlight are in the nightstand. When I leave for work, the pistol and speedstrip go up into a lock box

My 3 year old son loves Eddie the Eagle, he never goes into my nightstand, and he never climbs in our closet. It's just not worth finding out what happens if that ever changes.

[Greymoor]

My "House" gun is in a pistol safe under the headboard of my bed. I have a little Brussels Gryphon who does not like any strangers messing with his house and gets quit loud about it. He's not real intimidating but he does make a good "alarm" dog.

[antarti]

Truth be told, all kids will have to be "gunproofed" at some point, or run intolerable risks.

No matter what any of us do at home, they will grow up and find unguarded loaded firearms (sooner or later) at a friend or close relatives house, and probably when supervision isn't around.

A friend of mine runs a 3+ childrens karate/self-defense class where they also teach the Eddie Eagle stuff to the kids and practice in a class setting. The "class" atmosphere makes it a fun excercise for all the kids, and that peer reinforcement makes it stick. That's increasingly sounding like a good idea. You may seek out something similar.

As far as our home, dogs (even big mean ones) are out, the kids would eat them for lunch (almost literally). I would really like one though for peace of mind and companionship for the family, damn shame.

My point with the previous post and carrying 24/7 is this: If you go through the trouble of protecting them from others, and you worry about them hurting themselves with firearms at home AT ALL, you've gotta go all the way and either eliminate or control the guns 100% of the time. Period. Make the commitment to do either, follow through, and sleep easier.

Thanks for the kind words about our situation... you have no idea how appreciated they are.

[armoredman]

You are a strong, good man, for taking on a responsability like that. I salute you, sir.

[Snowjob]

Walt Sherrill
Thank you for raising a very important consideration. There is an everpresent potential for children and adolescents other than our own (whether friends of our kids, those of family members, or even just neighbors) to be where they don't belong.

My parents have neighbors whose boys are not shown any consistent discipline or expectations for appropriate boundaries and behavior. In spite of having been given rules for time spent at my parents' house, they do whatever and go wherever they want (which is usually what they've been told not to do) as soon as the opportunity arises. They have also been known to enter my parents' house while they are away. Mom and Dad now have to be more concerned about two 4 year olds entering uninvited than they do about an ill-intentioned thug.

When my sister stayed with us for a while, she occasionally had friends over. While we trusted my sister to utilize common sense and maintain appropriate boundaries, I wasn't about to make such an assumption about her friends, whether I knew them or not.

There are those who might argue that visitors ought to know better than to go snooping when in our homes, but the responsibility to keep gun-related catastrophes from occurring in our homes lies solely with us - whatever the method.

[David904]

Hey Boats, it's me (Kampfjaeger) from BFC. I have two young kids. One is two years old and the other is five months.

I used to keep my HK .40 in my nightstand; however that has changed. I purchased a safe and put it in/under my nightstand. It's a little more of a PITA to access the guns, but I get the warm fussies knowing that uneducated little hands aren't going to be able to touch anything in there that might enable them to harm themselves or friends.

As the safe resides underneath (sort of... tough to explain) the nightstand, I am toying with the idea of simply taking my HK out of the safe at night and placing it in the nightstand drawer. In the morning, I would replace it in my safe. The trick is to make DAMN certain that I don't forget to replace the firearm in the safe every morning.

I intend to pick up a shotgun, but I currently have no idea how I am going to stow it safely. I cannot afford a full sized long gun vault.

[Walt Sherrill]

I have an underbed gun safe -- got it realitively inexpensively (around $70 a few years ago). Its not good for QUICK RETRIEVAL, unless you were to leave it unlocked at night -- but its certainly good for securing several long guns or a bunch of handguns.

It can be "screwed" to a wooden floor. (We bought a different bed, and the bed frame now conflicts with the safe -- so you have to be sure that your bed and that sort of safe are compatible. I bought a large, fireproof gun safe for another room, downstairs, and keep a small, cigarbox sized gun safe and have it screwed to the floor in the bedroom. Its not fireproof, and a sledgehammer could open it, but idle or unprepared hands aren't going to get my "nightstand" gun.)

The problem with leaving the underbed safe unlocked at night is that you eventually leave it unlocked -- out of forgetfulness -- during the day.

If they made one with the push buttons, it would be almost ideal.

[Bluecard]

I have a special drawer that I keep locked during the day and at night I insert the key into the lock. I have attached a large key chain on the key so that I am reminded to take it out and place it hidden away when I leave the house. I have a 3 yr old and a 7 yr old. My oldest is very trustworthy and I have a good idea that he wouldn't touch a gun even if it was right in front of him. My youngest on the other hand, would, even if I told him not too, that's just his personality. Soo, to be safe, all my pistols are either locked in the safe or in the drawer with an empty chamber. I personally think you need to be awake enough to identify your threat and the need to chamber a round is just another step to help avoid any accidents. JMO

[CAS700850]

Like Boats, I locked up the guns when our now almost 5 year old started joining us at night three years ago. (Before anyone gets one me, let me say that his little brother, age 2, picked up the same habit. And yes, I am working on gunproofing the older boy, thank you.) In the place of the handgun (Smith Model 19, if you'd like to know), I relied upon my daily carry pocket knives (Benchmade CQC-7), a 3 cell Maglite, and my mean looks to get me the three feet from the bed to the safe.

Anyone know if the Magna-Trigger is still available?

[loandr.]

If a BG gets to my nitestand GUN....it will be to finish himself BEFORE the kids get to him :evil: But seriously if puppies arent an option a good Finger tip combo lock box is the way to go. No light needed, and little ones cant access it . leave gun Chambered ready to go, afix unit to or under bedframe and you are just a press or 2 away from go. IMHO

Loandr.

[20cows]

My "bedside" gun when my children were small (and not old enough to understand gun safety) was a 1911 with a full magazine but empty chamber. The gun has a 26 lbs. recoil spring and my children are not physically capable of chambering a round. Way before the time they are old enough to rack the slide, they will be well versed in gun safety (as I was as a child).

My children are now in that "middle" stage. They are knowledgeable on safety issues and shoot with supervision, but at 11 and 13 (girl oldest) neither can chamber that 1911 yet.

[Mark13]

You need to compare the relative risks involved here. The chance that you will need instant access to a gun is far less than the risk of a child having an accident with a gun.

If your circumstances are such that you need access to a gun all the time, keep it on your person.

At night, if someone can get into your house while you are sleeping faster than you could get a gun out of a quick access safe then you need to focus on better home security.

I have young children and I *never* leave a firearm in a condition where if the trigger is pulled the gun can fire, safety or no safety, when not on my body.

[Stickjockey]

May I suggest a Lifejacket? (http://www.life-jacket.com/)

[blacksuit]

I go to sleep with the ole P95 on the bedstand. I have a 5 year old son and he knows not to touch any of the guns in the house, and yes they are out of reach. The minute I get up for work the pistol goes back to the shelf and out of reach. I haven't figured out yet what I am going to do when he gets big enough to get up on the shelf. I trust that he won;t mess with them but what about friends...I am thinking about a safe

[Instinctivshot]

I don't trust any device that requires a dead :cuss: battery or lost key.
Simplex locks are user programable and if you open them regularly become second nature to use. Easy to use in total darkness and kid proof.

[Mannlicher]

I have always had a handgun a available and ready when going to bed. When the kids were younger, it took a lot of explaining, and training, but then my kids were a lot more disciplined then the current crop, and tended to listen to 'ole dad'.
Now what I did is not advise to anyone here. Something like this is a intensly personal decision, and the decision on gun availability and access should not be made based on what one reads in an online BBS.

[Andrew Rothman]

I go to sleep with the ole P95 on the bedstand. I have a 5 year old son and he knows not to touch any of the guns in the house, and yes they are out of reach. The minute I get up for work the pistol goes back to the shelf and out of reach. I haven't figured out yet what I am going to do when he gets big enough to get up on the shelf. I trust that he won;t mess with them but what about friends...I am thinking about a safe

My 16-month-old is a pretty good climber. My 3-year-old drags chairs around the room to reach things.

Don't kid yourself about the shelf. Get a lockbox or a safe NOW.

[gaston_45]

You CANNOT child proof a gun. You can, however, gun proof a child. It's kinda hard to teach inanimate object a certain behavior but kids are veeery easily taught. When was the last time your child played with the kitchen knives? The blender? Toaster perhaps? They see those objects every day and know their uses, there is no mystery to stir their curiosity, the same needs to be done with guns.

My children grew up with unloaded guns left in the corner, easier to get at that way. It was made clear they could touch all they wanted once they asked first, but if caught messing with them without permission the consequenses were so severe they would never forget it. They are three and five now and if I test them by leaving an unloaded gun on a coffee table or some other random location one or the other will come up, say " daaaady! you left your gun out AGAIN!". They don't play with them, don't touch them, and at this point have no real interest in them other then when I take them shooting once in a while. That may work against me once I actually WANT to get them into shooting but I don't have to worry about them playing with them.

Here's a question for you. What do you do when they go to a friend's house or the babysitters? Do you check for guns left out first? If there were any left out and my kids were there they would simply go tell the nearest adult. I don't have to worry about that situation like all the lock 'em away folks will and that is a great piece of mind to have.

If you reeeally want to lock up your self defense rig, you might consider a bianchi carrylok holster. It's a LOT faster than a safe but securely locks the gun in until the release is activated. Some good quality time spent teaching your kids will go a lot further then any commercial product you could ever buy, that goes for ANY topic too, not just guns!

[Andrew Rothman]

You CANNOT child proof a gun. You can, however, gun proof a child. It's kinda hard to teach inanimate object a certain behavior but kids are veeery easily taught.

Baloney. Malarkey. Dangerous and irresponsible and untrue.

Kids under a certain age do not have the brain development necessary to exercise good judgement. If you have kids, you've seen them do the most incredibly irrational things when the ideas popped into their heads.

It's NOT either-or. You have a responsibility to 1) physically prevent kids (your gun-proofed kids, as well as their idiot spawn-of-blissninny friends) from gaining access to dangerous items, AND 2) to train your kids on what to do when they run across their idiot friends' parents' gun, locked and loaded, in the nightstand drawer.

[torpid]

I really don't get the "complexity" of this issue- it's a really simple fix (and can be accomplished cheaply if desired).

As has been said by others here:

Get a simplex mechanical lock handgun box (http://www.handgunsafe.com/index.htm) .

Add some door/window alarms (very inexpensive ones abound these days that work ok in my experience.) and/or an affordable motion detecting alarm (from your local hardware store) for a nice advanced warning system.

The (bolted down) box keeps the gun away from children/teens, yet it can be retrieved instantly ready to go (mine takes 2 seconds to go from fully locked to gun ready in hand).

to quote Mark13
At night, if someone can get into your house while you are sleeping faster than you could get a gun out of a quick access safe then you need to focus on better home security.


.

[c_yeager]

Is your objection that the existence of a mechanical backup indicates to you a propensity to malfunction, and therefore unreliability?

I think the objection to the mechanical backup is that kids are REALLY good at finding keys, and in doing so, could completely circumvent the security offered by the safe.

One could simply fill the keyhole with glue to solve this problem if it was considered an issue.

[gaston_45]

Do you lock up your kitchen knives so they don't go running after the kiddies Matt? Or did you just train them to sit on the counter? If you did get them trained let me know how you did it becuase if am having a terrible time house training mine!
It's NOT either-or. You have a responsibility to 1) physically prevent kids (your gun-proofed kids, as well as their idiot spawn-of-blissninny friends) from gaining access to dangerous items, AND 2) to train your kids on what to do when they run across their idiot friends' parents' gun, locked and loaded, in the nightstand drawer.

Uh.... did you happen to read past oh, the first sentence of my post??? Here's a good part but it was near the bottom.
Here's a question for you. What do you do when they go to a friend's house or the babysitters? Do you check for guns left out first? If there were any left out and my kids were there they would simply go tell the nearest adult.
I think that adresses your number two rule and if rule two is addressed properly then you do not need your rule one.
This whole you can't teach them you have to remove access thing sounds a whole lot like what our friends the Brady's have been peddling for a few decades now.

[Andrew Rothman]

Do you lock up your kitchen knives so they don't go running after the kiddies Matt?
Just the ones with legs. :)

Seriously, though, no, I keep them out of reach.

I think that adresses your number two rule and if rule two is addressed properly then you do not need your rule one.
Wrong. Wrong and dangerous. Kids simply can NOT be counted on to exercise good judgement all the time, and you are courting disaster by believing they can.

You do everything you can to reduce the chances. That means locking up your guns AND gunproofing your kids, for reasons I explained pretty clearly above.

What do you do when they go to a friend's house or the babysitters? Do you check for guns left out first? If there were any left out and my kids were there they would simply go tell the nearest adult.

That's why you do both.

Need an analogy? "I don't need to drive carefully -- I wear a seat belt," or "I don't need to wear a seat belt -- I drive carefully!"

This country has some awfully sad ex-parents who thought their kids knew better.

[pax]

Matt's right.

When my kids were very small, I baby-proofed the house.

Shortly thereafter, I discovered that there's no such thing as a baby-proof environment. Dang kids showed me that no matter how careful I was, there would always be opportunities for them to hurt themselves.

I realized I was going to have to teach my kids a lot of things I thought they were way too young to learn, if I was going to have any peace whatsoever. Stuff like how to safely navigate the stairs when they were still too small to walk up or down stairs, or how to get a plate into the sink without breaking it when they were still too short to even see the sink, stuff like why they should never ever take medicine mommy or daddy hadn't given them. Amazing how much trouble one small child can get into, if his parents trust their "baby proofing" and don't teach him anything!

Nevertheless, I still kept the baby gates in place, kept the outlets covered, and latched all the cabinets. How stupid it would have been if I hadn't! As much trouble as my kids got into with the baby proofing and patient instruction, I hate to think how much more they would have gotten into if I'd neglected either half of those two inseparable essentials.

The most remarkable thing about kids is that they grow. What might be "too dangerous" for them to try today, or too difficult, soon becomes an easy conquest -- and the next time you look, whatever it was has become too boring to even bother doing any more.

I think some of these arguments are based on people thinking about their own kids, at the stages the kids are now. My thirteen-year-old, for instance, is about as gun-proofed a kid as you'll ever meet. He knows the Four Rules. He knows why those rules matter and he has seen with his own eyes what damage a gun can do. He knows he can go to the range with me any time he asks, and thus my guns don't have the temptation of the forbidden to him; the guns are simply tools that we use somewhere besides the house. I don't worry about him getting into my guns because I know he's smarter than that. Of course I'd think you were silly if you told me he couldn't be trusted to leave my gun alone.

But when he was two? Heavens no! I'd have had to be out of my ever-lovin' skull if I'd left a gun, loaded or not, anywhere near that child! What kind of an idiot parent would leave a gun where a two year old could get it? A two year old, no matter how well he might be able to parrot the rules, is simply not capable of internalizing the rules -- or of consistently, absolutely, obeying the rules in the absence of an alert parent to remind him what the rules are.

So when you hear someone make an absolute statement like, "No responsible parent would ..." you have to ask yourself: what age of kid are we talking about here?

pax

You can't teach 'em anything until you teach 'em to obey. -- my dad.

[gaston_45]

How did we ever make it this far in this country? There were no gun locks in existence, nor could the common man afford a safe for the first 200 years of our country's existence, how come all the kiddies didn't play with guns and kill off the future generations??

I agree Barbara, any statement that begins with " no responsible parent would..." cannot be correct for everyone, but your statement " what kind of idiot parent would... " also fits in this category. I would be that idiot parent in this conversation according to you. But you know what? My kids are both gun proofed and have survived to the ripe old ages of 3 and 5 so that has to say something about the method. No blood has run in the streets, or the cribs, my house has not turned into the wild west... even though we live in the oldest town west of the rockies.

Mostly it depends upon the child and the parents' parenting skills. If you don't teach your kids and hide everything then of course they are going to try to play with the "forbidden fruit", even at age two.
Shortly thereafter, I discovered that there's no such thing as a baby-proof environment. Dang kids showed me that no matter how careful I was, there would always be opportunities for them to hurt themselves.
That is the most true statement in the thread, it is also a rewording of the exact quote that stated this exchange between Matt and myself pax. And your dad is absolutely correct also, smart man.

[Walt Sherrill]

You may have been effective and successful in training your kids about guns and gun safety, but if you read through these various responses, you'll see that "kid-proofing" your house and guns ALSO has to do with the kids YOU haven't had an opportunity to train...

Its not unusual for a household's kids to have friends over to play.

Its not unusual for those "visitors" to go places and do things they shouldn't go or do. "Tommy, where's the bathroom..." and then, on the way back...

If you are confident that the other "idiots'" kids (who haven't had the benefit of your training or guidance) will be safe in your home and NOT a danger to themselves or your kids, then you are perfectly correct to feel unconcerned.

Down through our history, handguns weren't all that common; its only been in the last 100 years or so that they've really gotten popular. A long gun was often a necessary family tool; a handgun wasn't. The sheer size and weight of a long gun, suitable for military use or hunting, makes them less attractive to kids. Handguns, however, are different.

[torpid]

Yeah- what Walt said.

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[Ohen Cepel]

I just bought a new Gun Vault (made in April 05 with improvements to fix past issues).

I kept a loaded gun in the night stand for years. However, with kids on the way it wasn't an option. I think it's a great way to go and have been very impressed with the safe so far! Also, they have great customer support.

It's also good to know that the odds of me coming home and facing my own weapon are much lower now.

[torpid]

I loved the Gunvault's concept, but I found it had problems for me in practical use.

My gunvault really ate the batteries (which also were a big pain to change if vault was bolted down on a high surface, due to their placement) and therefore would be dead every few months when you'd go to open it- requiring the key (or a Bic pen :rolleyes: ) to open and change the batteries.

I also never liked that there was a key, but you couldn't fill in the keylock with epoxy/glue to disable it, as you needed the keylock to keep changing the damn dead batteries.

The "dead safe" issue was the main reason I wanted to go mechanical, but once the "open with a Bic pen" issue was revealed (and Gunvault's shamefully ignoring all customers- do a search here on THR) I went with a mechanical safe with no lock instead.

After doing some research I got a new safe, and I'm really happy with the Handgun Box (http://www.handgunsafe.com/index.htm) safe, and it is WAY sturdier, but there are also other good non-battery ones out there too if you look.

Perhaps Gunvault has finally cleaned up their act, but I've moved on to (in my experience) better alternatives.


(Note- I am in no way affiliated with the makers of the Handgun Box, just happy with the product.) :)


.

[Walt Sherrill]

An inexpensive gun safe can be found for well under $100.

Mine -- made by American Security, I think -- has only push buttons (which can be worked at night, in the dark. Its screwed into the floor with heavy brass screws.

No batteries, not power required.

[Linemup]

Yes had kids around here for many years too Boat. I like your idea of the Mossberg high in the closet. A shotgun is probably one of the best home defense guns made. And if and intruder is about, there is nothing quite like the sound of pumping the slide to load in a round.

[Walt Sherrill]

Re: the sound of a shotgun being primed.

I like the idea of this approach, too.

But I like even better the idea of a bad guy not even knowing I'm around, and having absolutely NO WARNING of what might be waiting for him. If you really want to warn them, just say, "I've called the police on my cell phone, and they're on their way..." and say it loudly.

If they're going to leave, they'll leave. If they're not going to leave, I'd rather the bad guy come around a corner looking for me without realizing that I have a loaded weapon ready for him.

I've also started, recently, keeping a set of electronic muffs handy near the gun safe in my bedroom. Not only will it keep me from destroying my hearing if I ever have to shoot, in the house, it also lets me AMPLIFY what sounds there are to be heard. Very useful.

[Walt Sherrill]

(entered in error.)

[chopinbloc]

"As to the knife. You're better off investing in even a simple alarm system "
that reminds me of an ad i saw on tv for little battery powered alarms for window, drawers and doors. you could mount one on the inside of the nightstand drawer and they make a pretty loud screech when you open the drawer. ought to work just fine and you could put your pistol back in the nightstand.

[dfaugh]

some might call me stupid...But, I've never kept a loaded gun in the house...Even now my kids are older, and capable of using (effectively I might add) any gun I have... I just keep loaded magazines seperate, but handy. I can insert magazine, and work the bolt in a split second. I do have early warning system (dogs) but even so, I've never felt that I needed to keep gun laoded at all times. At most I would keep gun in "condition 3" (mag loaded, chamber empty) or as usually applied to shotguns "cruiser ready".

[Andrew Rothman]

Gunproofing your kids is not enough. The shooter in the Rocori High School incident was gunproofed.

But when he snapped (no one saw it coming), he took a .22 pistol from an unlocked dresser.

Tue, Jul. 12, 2005

Father: Gun kept in dresser

McLaughlin used pistol that was to be handed down

BY SHANNON PRATHER

Pioneer Press

ST. CLOUD, Minn. — Stearns County Sheriff's Sgt. David McLaughlin said he purchased a .22-caliber Colt pistol for himself but allowed his teenage son Jason to fire the gun at a shooting range on two occasions and told the boy that one day the gun would be his.

Jason McLaughlin knew the semiautomatic pistol was kept in an antique dresser in a spare bedroom along with seven other guns, David McLaughlin testified Monday during his son's murder trial, but said he had no idea the shy high school freshman had packed it in his gym bag the morning of Sept. 24, 2003.

Hours later, David McLaughlin heard the police radio crackle with reports of a shooting at Rocori High School in Cold Spring. The 22-year law enforcement veteran responded to the call and discovered that two students had been gunned down and the suspect was his 15-year-old son.

Prosecutors from the state attorney general's office called David McLaughlin to testify about his son on the fifth day of the trial. Assistant Attorney General William Klumpp Jr. showed David McLaughlin the .22-caliber handgun.

"That was a pistol I previously owned," David McLaughlin said quietly.

Jason McLaughlin, now 16, is standing trial as an adult on charges of first- and second-degree murder in the shooting deaths of Seth Bartell, 14, and Aaron Rollins, 17, who was hit by a stray bullet. Clay County District Judge Michael Kirk, who is hearing the case because of David McLaughlin's job, will render the verdict.

Prosecutors on Monday also played a videotaped confession in which Jason McLaughlin admitted bringing the handgun to school and shooting Bartell for teasing him about his acne.

David McLaughlin looked down at his hands throughout his testimony and gave brief, often one-word answers. His wife and Jason's mother, Mary McLaughlin, watched from the first row of the gallery.

David McLaughlin said he knew his son was sensitive about "severe" acne on his face and back, but testified his son never indicated he was teased about it. Jason was on three prescription medications to treat the condition.

"It was probably more what he didn't say," David McLaughlin said. "He didn't want me to look at (the acne), and he always wore a shirt."

The father acknowledged that he kept boxes of ammunition and nearly 20 firearms, including rifles, pistols and shotguns, at his home on the south side of Cold Spring. David McLaughlin, looking at a photograph of his gun drawer with an empty space where the Colt pistol had been, said he used gunlocks. Some of the guns in the photo had gunlocks attached to them. But in September 2003, David McLaughlin testified, he was in the process of cleaning the weapons, so some remained unlocked.

David McLaughlin, a father of four, said he had no concerns about having firearms around his youngest son, whose relationship was particularly close, the father noted. The deputy said he drove his son to a Minnesota Department of Natural Resources firearms safety course in the spring of 2003. David McLaughlin said his son appeared to be able to shoot the .22-caliber pistol accurately when they practiced at a shooting range.