"MOLON LABE" and Greek Letters


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python1340
March 16, 2003, 05:02 PM
http://wecembroidery.com/designs/images/molon%20labe.jpg

I've been thinking of getting a MOLON LABE tattoo in the Greek letters as shown above. I'd like to know why the accent marks are present though. I searched several web sites containing the Greek alphabet and didn't see accent marks. Anyone know the deal?

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Yohan
March 16, 2003, 05:08 PM
I think they're there cause it looks cool.

jsalcedo
March 16, 2003, 06:02 PM
This may be a stupid question, but I've been keeping my eyes open for someone else to ask it to no avail.

How do you pronounce Molon Labe?:confused:

python1340
March 16, 2003, 06:16 PM
mo-lone lah-veh

jsalcedo
March 16, 2003, 06:33 PM
Thanks.

BTW that would be a cool tatoo. I would leave out the accent marks if they aren't true to the original language.

python1340
March 16, 2003, 07:08 PM
Are the accent marks there just to look cool? Kind of how it was trendy for 80's bands to use umlauts like Motley Crue and Queensryche.

CB900F
March 16, 2003, 07:26 PM
OK Guys;
A little mercy please. I'm way out here in the sticks of northern Montana. What's it mean? 900F

python1340
March 16, 2003, 07:34 PM
It means "come and get them", as a challenge to anyone who will come to take your guns away from you.

geegee
March 16, 2003, 07:38 PM
Here's a link: http://www.thefiringline.com/HCI/molon_labe.htm

geegee

Mastrogiacomo
March 16, 2003, 07:58 PM
Are you the one whose parents didn't want him to get that tattoo? And you wanted it on the back? Why not get a shirt that says this instead? Reasons not to get the marking:

Your future "hope she'll say yes" wife may not like tattoos.
Your future children may be embarrassed by them.
Neighbors may think less of you.
Your in-laws may hate them.
You grow old and skin sags -- ink fades.
They can get infected.
It may not look cool in a few years.
You might change your mind.
It'll never come off -- no, not even with laser.
Friends and business associates may not think it looks "cool" either.
A gun would cost less and hurt less...

I respect you want this but it's a permant reminder of temporary insanity, and I've always thought people who get tattoos ran out of good ideas. There are SO many better ways to spend your money than marking up your body. A beautiful gun would go further but best of luck with whatever you decide.

python1340
March 16, 2003, 08:00 PM
It is WAAAAAY too late for me. :) I'm already quite inked.

keyhole
March 16, 2003, 08:30 PM
Well one thing for sure, no one can ever doubt your devotion!:cool:

John G
March 16, 2003, 08:40 PM
Arguments against getting a tattoo usually boil down to "other people won't like them." Bottom line: there's nothing more personal, and the choice is yours. If you're ready for the commitment, go for it.

Jesse H
March 16, 2003, 08:42 PM
Reasons not to get the marking:

Your future "hope she'll say yes" wife may not like tattoos.
Future wife may not like guns.

Your future children may be embarrassed by them.
same as above

Neighbors may think less of you.[/quote
same as above

[quote]Your in-laws may hate them.
same as above

You grow old and skin sags -- ink fades.
that's why I'm not inking my belly or chest (pray I don't develop manboobs in 30 yrs), hopefully staying fit will prevent that.

They can get infected.
They can, if getting inked at irreputable places and one doesn't care for them properly.

It may not look cool in a few years.
Good point, I always wait a long time before getting one, and I choose something that is symbolic and significant to me. If I change my mind later (doubt it), it's part of me and who I am or a reminder of who I was.

To each their own. My tats harm others as much as my guns do.

ahadams
March 16, 2003, 10:23 PM
Koine (common) Greek, which is what the New Testament and some of the writings of the Early Church Fathers were originally written in did have accents. So I believe did Attic Greek, which would be the classical Greek in which the history of the Greeks vs the Persians was originally written.

gun-fucious
March 17, 2003, 12:00 AM
i believe the statue of Leonidas at thermopylae is sans accent marks
http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/Greece/Sparta/Sparta-Leonidas.jpg

RAMMUNITION
March 17, 2003, 01:14 AM
Here's mine

Jedi_7.62
March 17, 2003, 01:17 AM
I think it would be a darn cool tatoo!!!
As far as accents I'd go with historical accuracy whichever way it proves to be.

However, I'd be prepared to hear "Were you in a frat?"

DVDTracker
March 17, 2003, 02:20 AM
Is the first "O" in Molon supposed to be an "O" or an omega? I've seen it both ways...

hipower22
March 17, 2003, 04:44 AM
Actually I believe a more accurate translation is "They are here", either way the meaning is the same.

Another good quote from Thermopylae; when the Spartans were told the Persians would put so many arrows in the air at the same time they would blot out the sun, the reply was "Good, then we can fight in the shade".

BigG
March 17, 2003, 09:50 AM
I would go back to the drawing board on those characters judging by the statue at Thermopylae. They ought to know.

Leonidas also said, "Today we carve out our own omens," just before the battle.

Mastrogiacomo
March 17, 2003, 10:04 AM
Well...since your beyond hope...:D , I'd say go for it if it's what you want. The only thing I'd advise is to put it where you can see it. I don't understand the point of putting tattoos where you can't see them. Again, best of luck.:)

Wilhelm
March 17, 2003, 10:20 AM
A little OT but "Gates of Fire" by Steven Pressman is a fantastic account of Thermopylea. That tat is sweet, I would ink my whole body if it werent for Mrs. Wilhelm.


Wilhelm

python1340
March 17, 2003, 10:38 AM
RAMMUNITION-

I thought the Omega character wasn't used for the first "O" ?

Looks cool though.

python1340
March 17, 2003, 10:40 AM
Anyone have a close-up of the words on the statue?

python1340
March 17, 2003, 10:43 AM
http://people.msoe.edu/~tritt/graphics/greek1.gif

http://people.msoe.edu/~tritt/graphics/greek2.gif

python1340
March 17, 2003, 10:46 AM
Here's a Greek battle flag:

http://fotw.unislabs.com/images/g/gr^a_ss.gif

The first O is an Omicron, not an Omega.

RAMMUNITION - oops! :banghead:

ChristopherG
March 17, 2003, 11:18 AM
Python, your question is about accents.

Neither classical nor koine greek had (written) accents prior to around the 6th century CE, when they were invented (that's approximate; some diacriticals [the technical name for the set of marks including acccents and breathing marks] appeared before others, and they developed and standardized over 3 or 4 centuries). Ahadams is right that most of the manuscripts of ancient Greek documents, including early Christian documents, have them; but most of those are late copies of copies of copies (etc.); none of the earliest manuscripts do.

The style of script in your proposed tattoo is the all-capital "Uncial" manuscript style of all ancient formal and literary documents. There would have been no accents; indeed, there would not have been any separation between the words. The standard style was In Scripto Continua, just a long string of capital letters. The reader was left to sort out where words, sentences, paragraphs etc. all began and ended. No punctuation or anything. Reading was a real skill back in the day.

The quotation comes from Herodotus, doesn't it? Or is it Thucydides? Either way, it would have been, both originally and for several hundred years, the Uncial type of text I've described.

CG

usafpi
March 17, 2003, 02:46 PM
Python- Damn nice tat!!

Correia
March 17, 2003, 03:08 PM
I'm the guy that makes the hats and t-shirts.

I went with accents as that was how it was shown in a Greek encyclopedia entry on the Battle of Thermopyle sent to me by a Greek TFLer. Then I confirmed it with a Greek professor at USU.

Over the last 3 years I've heard arguments back and forth between people who are all way better educated than I am as to what is right. :) Way over my head. But I've also had native Greeks check out the hats (as have a ton of other folks I've sold them to) and they all knew what it was.

So bascially it is correct on the hats, however nobody is 100% certain on the accents.

The monument in the picture doesn't have accents, but I've also seen a close up of a plaque from Greece that had accents.

Mastrogiacomo
March 17, 2003, 03:23 PM
A tattoo of the symbol minus the flag would look nice on the upper arm...:)

Carlos Cabeza
March 17, 2003, 03:44 PM
The tattoo idea is cool. Don't worry about what other, less tolerant people think. Of all the reasons listed, you can bet the one who would regret it most is you for not doing what you want in life. Besides the ones who judge on appearances are superficial and hypocritical. Just look at Bill Clinton, He looks like an upstanding citizen. :D

Hey Correia, where can a brotha' get one of those hats ????
I'd like a black one with a white character set, like Lend's.....

Correia
March 17, 2003, 04:17 PM
Carlos, right now I'm in the process of moving. When I get settled in I'll take orders for another batch. Figure mid April. I'll post details here.

Carlos Cabeza
March 17, 2003, 04:21 PM
Thanks Corr.........

Quartus
March 17, 2003, 05:11 PM
Just look at Bill Clinton, He looks like an upstanding citizen.


Carlos, that was in poor taste. This WAS a nice thread! Then you had to go and throw in that obscenity...

:barf:






;)

Carlos Cabeza
March 17, 2003, 05:14 PM
:( I know, I know, the HIGH ROAD ! I apologize to all the Clinton sympathizers................................:rolleyes: You missed the part where I suggested that one have confidence in one's self and not
to burden themselves with the judgemental nature of others. IIR, He was not much of a role model, maybe a Rhodes scholar, but education does not give one moral superiority.

;) ;)

gun-fucious
March 17, 2003, 05:22 PM
in case you have not seen them,
i also have done some Molon Labe art:
http://zoom.cafepress.com/6/706426_zoom.jpg

http://www.americansforguncontrol.com/bumper.html
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=molonlabe

ahadams
March 17, 2003, 11:51 PM
Christopher, man, you're saying all that accent stuff I've been trying to learn didn't come up until the 6th century or thereabouts? :what: ack! :what: please shoot me an email with a cite on that so I can, uh, mumble mumble bring this up with somebody else mumble bishop mumble.

ack!

I'm also an Anglican lay minister, y'see and uh mumble...

python1340
March 18, 2003, 04:58 PM
in case you have not seen them,
i also have done some Molon Labe art:
http://zoom.cafepress.com/6/706426_zoom.jpg

http://www.americansforguncontrol.com/bumper.html
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/s...oreid=molonlabe

From everything I've read, Molon Labe means Come and Get Them, not Come and Take Them.

Can anyone expound more on this? There's no way I want to make a mistake on a tattoo!!

Thanks!

gun-fucious
March 18, 2003, 05:03 PM
E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.
_
Come and take Them.
_
The reply of Leon’idas, King of Sparta, to the messengers sent by Xerxes to Thermop’ylæ. Xerxes said, “Go, and tell those madmen to deliver up their arms.” Leonidas replied, “Go, and tell Xerxes to come and take them.”

gun-fucious
March 18, 2003, 05:06 PM
Hey Correia!
did someone snag yer art?
http://www.mgmtargets.com/hats.htm

Correia
March 18, 2003, 05:18 PM
Gosh darnit. I'm so sick of getting ripped off.

Just the other day some loser was pretending to be me and selling cheap rip off Molon Labe hats on some other boards. He was even using pictures of my gear.

Oh well. That is capitalism for you.

python1340
March 18, 2003, 05:25 PM
I went with accents as that was how it was shown in a IGreek encyclopedia entry on the Battle of Thermopyle sent to me by a Greek TFLer. Then I confirmed it with a Greek professor at USU.

Over the last 3 years I've heard arguments back and forth between people who are all way better educated than I am as to what is right.

So bascially it is correct on the hats, however nobody is 100% certain on the accents.

I've done some research off-line as well, and the accents really don't seem to belong there in any lingual sort of way. But they do look cool!

So the question becomes, to put them on the tattoo, or not?
:confused:

python1340
March 18, 2003, 05:26 PM
Hey Correia!
did someone snag yer art?
http://www.mgmtargets.com/hats.htm

A FREAKING GOLF VISOR!!!!!!!

Come and take my golf clubs?????

Correia
March 18, 2003, 05:47 PM
Python, it is your skin. I think you are going to have to go with your gut on this one. :)

I'm just ticked off. Looking closely at those pictures they aren't just an imitation, they are an exact rip off. The embroidery appears to have been copied directly from one of my hats.

I sent him an e-mail. I wonder if he will respond.

voilsb
March 18, 2003, 06:15 PM
http://wecembroidery.com/designs/images/molon%20labe.jpg
I took a koine greek class (which, granted, is not classical greek) which barely went over accent marks. the reason it "barely" did is because, as mentioned before, they were not in the original manuscripts. they were, however, later added as they add pronunciation help.

since we only barely went over them, I don't know what they all mean. I know the second one (at the end of labe, on the epsilon) is a breathing mark, not an "accent" per se. basically, it says the 'e' should be pronounced as if it were done with heavy breathing, making the e' (epsilon with breathing mark) prounounced somewhere between an e (epsilon) and an h (eta)

as shown, the above would be prounounced "mah-lone lahb-heh"

and omega is quite allowed early in a word. omega is the long-O sound (like the O in 'code') and omicron is the short-O sound (like the O in 'log').

another okie
March 18, 2003, 08:50 PM
English speakers, naturally enough, tend to put the stresses in words where they would be if the word were English. Every language has its own rules about where the accents fall. English is particularly bizarre since it has words from so many languages. The accents in molon labe are therefore quite useful to us, whether they would have been necessary to Mr. Leonidas or not. My Greek copies of Aeschylus, Herodotus, and so on all have accents.

By the way, I have one of the hats. They are high quality and often spark conversation. They give you the chance to discuss guns in a positive way. It doesn't scare people or play to stereotypes, like a hat might that says, "My business is killing and business is good." You can also just say "It's an old Greek saying" if you don't feel like explaining it all.

Monte Harrison
March 19, 2003, 09:18 AM
I checked the spelling with a professor of Classical Studies at UofA. He mentioned the accent marks, but said they weren't necessary, and that it is okay to add an exclamation point, though the ancient Greeks didn't have one.

longeyes
March 19, 2003, 11:25 AM
I like the tat. Great saying.

But if you find someone questioning the accent marks on your "Molon Labe" tat you are definitely in the wrong bar or with the wrong lady.

I studied Greek a couple of years (Jesuits) an aeon ago. I think no accents--see other posts--is the way to go. More lapidary, my man.:D

hipower22
March 19, 2003, 04:48 PM
python1340


What are the origins of that Greek battle flag?

samualt
March 19, 2003, 05:09 PM
Molon Labe:
From the ancient Greek, it is the reply of the Spartan General-King Leonidas to Xerxes, the Persian Emperor who came with 600,000 of the fiercest fighting troops in the world to conquer and invade little Greece, then the center and birthplace of civilization as we know it. When Xerxes offered to spare the lives of Leonidas, his 300 personal bodyguards and a handful of Thebans and others who volunteered to defend their country, if they would lay down their arms, Leonidas shouted these two words back:
Molon Labe! (mo-lone lah-veh) They mean, "Come and get them"!


I don't think I could ever get a tattoo. There are enough ways to identify me without adding another. Sometimes it's good to blend into the crowd and not stick out. :rolleyes:

python1340
March 19, 2003, 06:02 PM
python1340


What are the origins of that Greek battle flag?


Google? :)

If you enjoyed reading about ""MOLON LABE" and Greek Letters" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!