I got a brother who needs some advice

[DigitalWarrior]

Would like to ask some more knowledgeable people for their advice.

He only shoots 9mm rounds because of a permanent injury to his wrist. He would like a .45 but cannot handle it. He says that he does not like the 9mm because of the risks of over-penetration.

Since he would prefer a larger round and he says that anything over a .40 hurts, what would you recommend?

I think anything to reduce recoil or increase effectiveness would be good, but I am not looking for a rehash of the 9mm vs. .45 threads of yore.

[Dionysusigma]

(Just throwing this out there for the more knowledgable)
What about .44 Special or .44 Russian? CAS loads?

[ThirdShiftRich]

Maybe he could use frangible 9mm ammo in his business gun to avoid over penetration? Possibly learn to shoot with the other hand?

[3rdpig]

The new 45 GAP might be a viable option, I've heard that several gun makers, including Glock of course since it's their new cartridge, are making full sized guns in this new caliber and it should be of less recoil than a standard 45 ACP. The guns chambered in 45 GAP should have smaller sized grip than those chambered in 45 ACP, which may be of help to him also.

I second the notion that he also start shooting with his other hand (use that side eye for sight alignment also), I started doing that many years ago at each range session, and while I'm still better with my strong side, it's not by much and I'm fully comfortable shooting with either hand using either eye.

[spacemanspiff]

has your bro tried shooting .45's since his injury? if so, how many different .45's did he try?

is it recoil or muzzle flip that your bro's wrist has difficulty accomodating?

[StopTheGrays]

Would 45 LC do what he is asking?


(This assumes he does not mind a revolver)

[trickyasafox]

i'd try reloading. you can get some really light 45 rounds if you handload, and if you go in a revolver you might even be able to make them lighter cause you dont have to worry about cycling the action

[Jim Watson]

The main thing he needs is ballistic education. A 9mm hollowpoint is most unlikely to "overpenetrate."

If "anything over a .40 hurts" but he "would prefer a larger round" than 9mm, his choice is limited. I sure don't know of any modern .37, .38, or .39 caliber pistols.
A .40 caliber in a relatively heavy gun, loaded with the Federal Personal Protection Hydrashok is about it; if he just wants an excuse to buy a new gun.

[ClarkEMyers]

Shoot a race gun.

[DigitalWarrior]

I am reading and paying a lot of attention:

1. Rent a Glock which uses 45 GAP to see if that helps.
2. Find out what hurts. Is it muzzle climb, recoil, etc.

What would be a good "relatively heavy .40".

I am pretty ignorant on pistols except for my 1911, which I <3 to death.

[mete]

A 9mm JHP will NOT overpenetrate !! Premium ammo regardless of cartridge is designed to conform to the FBI standards of penetration and expansion. Stick with the 9mm. For lesser recoil a heavier gun helps so avoid the light weight ones .A BHP would be an excellent choice. Some guns have mechanisms that have less recoil such as the HK P7 and HK USP.

[Trebor]

If he uses JHP's, overpenetration should not be an issue with 9mm. Ball ammo of any caliber tends to overpentrate, not just 9mm ball.

[critter]

Most really good hollow point bullets will solve your overpenetration problem.

However, IF you decide you want a heavy firearm in .40 S&W, Para Ordnance makes a full size double stack 1911 type called the P-16 in (I believe) either the standard type and LDA type trigger operations. It is quite heavy, especially with a full double stack magazine. Mine is very accurate, 100% reliable. Might be an option.

Good luck finding something that will work for him.

[5Wire]

As has been mentioned an other posts, bullet weight and speed can be selected to minimize recoil and muzzle flip.

Here's what I consider in the compromise.

Recoil is the force exerted exactly equal and opposite to the fired bullet and its direction of travel, so saith Isaac Newton.

In revolvers, the recoil is damped by the mass of the gun and cushy backstrap grips, if any. The rest of the force is absorbed by the shooter. Revolver muzzle flip is relatively high because the bore axis is at least one cylinder diameter and one finger diameter above the wrist pivot.

Muzzle flip is a consequence of leverage exerted by recoil based on the relative height of the bore axis in relation to the center of pivotal resistance in the shooter's wrist with the backstrap of the gun. The greater the vertical distance, the more flip.

A five shot revolver will usually have less flip than a six shot--everything else being equal--because the cylinder is narrower allowing a lower bore axis with less flip leverage. A heavier revolver will absorb more recoil than a lighter revolver. Something like a Smith & Wesson Model 60 (http://www.firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=293539&sw_activeTab=1) with a 3-inch barrel shooting 158 gr 38 special ammunition might be a good compromise in size, weight, and firepower.

Semiautomatics can have a lower bore axis because of the self loading method of bringing rounds to the chamber (there is no cylinder to accommodate). The rearward motion due to recoil is partially dampened by the recoil spring retarding the slide and tilting of the barrel (unless the barrel is a fixed barrel). That is, while the recoil energy may be the same as a particular revolver, it is dissipated over a longer period of time in a semiautomatic and feels less intense.

Big recoil, big leverage, big ouch. Small recoil, big leverage, smaller ouch. Small recoil, small leverage, even smaller ouch. Dissipating force over time will also lessen the ouch.

HK P7 M8 (8+1 rds 9mm) (http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=045002) or M13 (13+1 rds 9 mm) are steel pistols (absorbing more recoil than polymer) with fixed barrels (increasing inherent accuracy) and a gas pressure system that retards rearward motion of the slide until the bullet has left the barrel. This dissipates some of the ballistic energy of the bullet as well as of the recoil. These guns shooting American Eagle 147 gr Flat Point (AE9FP) have relatively little of either recoil or muzzle flip compared to most 9 mm pistols firing equivalent cartridges. Some P7 shooters change the recoil spring to make the guns perform with this relatively heavy, slow (subsonic) round. I've had no problem with either the M8 or M13 with stock springs. The 147 Gr is a required bullet weight for some LE Agencies, for what that's worth. Over penetration is not a dealbreaker for this round, in my opinion. I really like my P7's (M8/M13).

They can cost a bunch, they have a unique method of operation, and they are currently out of production. New In Box M8's are over $1300, M13's over $1500, lifetime service for original owner. Used ones are anywhere upwards of $900 (M8) and $1100 (M13). Used versions of earlier P7's, like the PSP, can be had for upwards of $650. If you buy used, expect to pay for service, unless you luck out and don't need any or HK loves you...

Glocks (http://www.glock.com/te_g19.htm) have a low bore axis, Steyr (http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/index.php?id=644) too but both are relatively light in mass, so recoil is less damped than with a steel gun. Kahrs (http://www.kahr.com/front.html) are pretty good and available in steel. So are Para Ordnance's (http://www.paraord.com/product/categories.html) pistols, also previously mentioned.

Find a rental place nearby, see what they have, check'em out.

HTH

[ulflyer]

Has your brother shot your 1911 and found it had too much kick...compared to the 9mm? If you're thinking of range shooting and want a milder bullet you're going to need to reload your own. Thats what I do and find my 1911's with light reloads much easier than the 9mm with factory loads.

[ChristopherG]

The answer to a concern about overpenetration is not larger caliber; it's lower sectional density. That means lighter bullet weight within the same caliber. Tests of modern premium rounds in various calibers show that they all achieve similar penetrations when they function correctly. A regular old 115 gr. 9mm hollowpoint is unlikely to penetrate if it functions (i.e., expands) correctly--certainly it's less likely to overpenetrate than anything in a larger caliber.

[Universal]

I can relate to your brother since I have arthritis in my wrists and elbows. I will tell you this much, stay away from the .40S&W. I actually feel that this caliber is worse than the .45ACP. I enjoy shooting the .38 Special the most. The recoil of a revolver seem to be much less painful than from a semi-auto. With regards to his 9mm concerns, I really do not think he has much to worry about if he uses a good JHP round.

Hope this helps.

[halvey]

The new 45 GAP might be a viable option, I've heard that several gun makers, including Glock of course since it's their new cartridge, are making full sized guns in this new caliber and it should be of less recoil than a standard 45 ACP. Explain how a .45 GAP at 25k PSI has less recoil than a .45 ACP with 18K psi - what mid.45 cartridges are loaded at? :confused:

[Coltdriver]

If he just wants to shoot something different then the solution is to get a very heavy gun and shoot a lighter load.

I have a 45 ounce n frame revolver in .357. If you shoot even fairly hot .38 rounds from it the recoil is relatively low and certainly not as snappy as my 9mm semi autos.

If he is looking for a carry piece then you could still get a heavier pistol and shoot reduced loads from it.

At the same time, nobody is under gunned with a 9mm carry weapon.

[DigitalWarrior]

We have some things to try.

[Rockstar]

Nix. Bad post.

[Rockstar]

I'd recommend that your brother get better information about overpenetration. As mentioned already in this thread, a properly-designed 9mm is no more inclined to overpenetrate than is a .45ACP. Your brother's reaching conclusions based on false predicates.

[The_Antibubba]

I don't see any mention of whether or not this is a carry weapon. Here are a few suggestions if it is not.

A Desert Eagle in .357 has almost no recoil. If your brother has trouble just holding a heavier gun, then this won't work.

If it's for home use, he might consider a carbine in .40 or .45.

He might also look for an instructor or training course that caters to people with disabilities or infirmities.

Is he wearing a brace of any sort when he is practicing?

[Vernal45]

Tell your brother to stop worrying. Get him a good 147gr hollow point, and practice.

[Al_Barrs]

Take a look at a .45ACP with fragmenting bullets and if it is to much, adda Pachmyer rubber grip and of course he can download the cartiridge with less powder, particularly for target shooting. Most law enforcement and correction firing ranges do this...

[Velocity229]

HK USP's all come with recoil reduction systems. They are light too.

Maybe an HK USP .45 with good Hogue rubber grips added may work.

[Berg01]

I have a big N-Frame Smith & Wesson Model 27-2 (6" barrel) revolver; this gun shoots .38 Specials with such minimal recoil that (except for the noise) you think you are shooting a .22.

[Whatsit]

Ditto Velocity's post. the 'patented recoil reduction system' in the HK USP 45F renders recoil to negligible levels. It would be worth your time to find a range that has one you can rent. Beautiful weapon.

[Missouri Mule]

If he can't handle any thing more powerfull than a 9mm para for whatever reason. Stick with that and use standard pressure hollow points.

The lightest recoiling 9mm pistol I have ever used it a CZ-75B, probably due to excellent ergonomics and all metal. steel I think, construction.

If he is recoil sensitive I would'nt advise some small and light weight like a Kahr though.

Thera are a lot of folks out there that use the 9mm exclusively and are perfectly happy with it.

I CCW a Kahr PM-9 a lot of the time and feel well armed.

[CAS700850]

I went through this situation with a bailiff/retired detective/friend/shooting buddy who has wrist problems. He prefers big bore (.45), but has been limited due to his wrist problems. After a couple of shots from his .45, he can (and has) actually lost all sense of feeling in his fingers. Not a good idea for a gunfight.

Anyways, he still has good hand strength, and had no problem working a revolver. So, we ended up getting him a 4" Smith 66 revolver with Hogue rubber grips, and loading up with +p 158 grn LSWHP loads (the old FBI load). Recoil is not problematic, ammo has a proven record of ending hostilities, and overpenetration is a minimal concern.

If his wrist can handle the weight, look into a Smith 686+, and he should be well protected.