For those of you who have been in combat:

[NMshooter]

Do you remember roughly how much ammunition you fired in any given firefight?

Just finished S.L.A. Marshall's "The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation" and am curious as to the differences between ammunition carried and expended in combat.

[Arc-Lite]

there are just to many variables to answer that directly, always best to have it, and not need it..then need it, and not have it. 10 full mags plus 200 was under dressed for your primary weapon...and this is IF you had good fire control. just to many variables

[Preacherman]

It varied for me.

In the 1970's, I carried an R1 (South African-manufactured version of the FN-FAL), and usually had 6 20-round magazines in web pouches plus 1 in the rifle. At other times, when carrying a heavy load of electronic warfare equipment, I was issued a Star Model B 9mm. autopistol (1911 style) and two magazines of 9mm. ball ammo.

In the 1980's, on the rare occasions I saw military-style combat, I usually had an R4 (South African-manufactured version of the Israeli Galil) or R5 (short-barrel version of the R4). Usual ammo load was 5 30-round magazines in webbing plus 1 in the weapon. Again, often I had only a sidearm, and there I tried to carry my personal Remington Rand 1911 in .45 ACP, with a few spare mags. When I had to carry a 9mm. pistol, I chose my CZ75 with 3 spare mags.

[Arc-Lite]

Secondary weapon was a custom HP Browning T, with 15 round mag, with 4, 20 round mags.... or Mac-10, again with one up the spout, and 4 spares.

[Hawkmoon]

Don't remember. Just say "A lot."

And who counts? A lot depends on the length of the engagement and the number of people on each side.

[omega5]

An impossible question to answer. To many variables. As a LRRP, our job was NOT to get in a firefight. When we did, it was usually an ambush, ours or there's. Ours meant a 20 round clip or two and a few rounds from my 1911. Theirs meant E&E to an LZ on the run and the number of rounds would be dictated by the tenacity of the pursuers.
An all night, in and thru the fence assault on a firebase could mean hundreds of rounds from a person's individual weapon and thousands from an M60.
As I said, to many variables for an answer.

[dasmi]

Preacherman, I've got to know, where were you, and what the heck were you doing?

[armoredman]

He could tell ya, but then he'd hafta kill ya. :)

[dasmi]

He could tell ya, but then he'd hafta kill ya.

Fine, but he needs to wait until I get some more powerful firearms, so I've got half a chance :)

[NMshooter]

Just looking for rough estimates, not specifics.

How much ammunition carried (within reason) makes you feel comfortable?

And yes, I realise what you are doing makes a big difference, I am just looking for a general idea of what folks have carried in the past.

Thank you!

:)

[Biker]

Today, three 30 round mags for my Bushmaster is fine. 33 years ago, Ten- 20 rounders for the M-16 seemed a bit light at times. ;)
Biker

[bradvanhorn]

Back in the early 90's (Persian Gulf & Somalia) I usually had at least seven 30rd mags for my M16 (210rds was the regular ammo load as I recall). During my last Iraq tour I carried five 30rd mags for my M16, and four 15rd mags for my M9. I'll be heading back to Iraq later this summer, and this time I plan on having at least seven/M16 and four/M9. One of the detriments of promotion is our so-called value in command and control instead of fighting. So much to my dismay, the CO has already told me I'm not allowed outside the wire anymore (I'm sneaky though; I'll find a way), and I suspect my main concern will be avoiding incoming rocket fire :eek:.

[Preacherman]

Dasmi, I was born and raised in South Africa, and lived there until I immigrated to the USA in 1997. My military experiences were in South Africa, Namibia (formerly South West Africa), some time swanning around in Angola, a few visits to Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia), etc. I also had the not-at-all-desirable experience of 18 years of civil unrest in South Africa between 1976 and 1994.

In military service, I was doing what I was told. I was fulltime from 1975-1978, and was called up on occasion after that. I actually served in the Navy, but as an electronic warfare specialist, many of us ended up in brown, stomping our way across African bush, as the Army didn't have many EW types in the early days. In later service, as a computer specialist, I was helping to retrieve and evaluate captured Soviet equipment (including the first ever complete SA-8 system ever recovered by the West - which got the US intelligence types rather excited! :D ).

In the civil unrest, I was part of a church group trying to help the victims of violence, irrespective of politics or ideology - so we tended to get shot at by both sides. Not fun... :( I carried my sidearm of choice, and often had a Remington 870 handy as well. If it came to a choice between being killed unarmed, or stopping the BG's the hard way, I knew which choice I was going to make! Had to make it, too, on far too many occasions. I do not have good memories of those years.

[Arc-Lite]

Preacher...you were luck to have been born and had your youth in the Africa that your parents knew.

[rde]

Carried 7 30 rounders for M16A2. Cross loaded as well. Problem of note to me was not rounds carried and expended...but magazine control. Takes a lot of discipline to secure and maintain empty magzines during magazine changes...during a fast moving high stress event. During Operation Just Cause many of the "regular" troops dropped their mags and after security had been established it turned out many had lost their empty mags along the way. Fortunately during this business trip the enemy was not in the business of coming back for seconds. A serious lesson that took a lot of work to overcome. We went to practicing mag changes with proper empty mag retention similar to the way we practiced donning M17 protetective masks..over and over again. Something that is not focused on with standardized TRADOC training doctrine. Something that has to be focused on at the unit level...and only focused on (in my experience) if that unit has a decent number to combat vets.

[Chris Rhines]

Arc-Lite - How exactly were you carrying an open-bolt weapon with a round in the chamber?

- Chris

[Arc-Lite]

Chris.......one up the spout, is also a mag in the mag well.

[George Hill]

With the M-16 (including my CAR-15) usually the normal 6 mags in pouches with another 12 in the ruck. 4 grenades. 1911 with 4 spares. And 2 LAW rockets, later to become 2 AT-4s.
When I packed the M-60 it was with 400 rounds of belted, another guy carried more, and I carried a couple extra belts in the ruck. 4 grenades, a couple smokes, and 8 spare mags for the 1911.
Did I ever use it all up? No, but I did run all the way down to just pistol ammo and smoke grenades remaining.

[Browns Fan]

Quote:
"In the civil unrest, I was part of a church group trying to help the victims of violence, irrespective of politics or ideology - so we tended to get shot at by both sides."

Wow, sounds like a tough ministry!

[Trebor]

I've read that guys in Vietnam would carry ammo in strippers or in cartons to reload empty mags with after a firefight. That way they could limit the weight of mags to 8 or 10 or so, but have the equivilant of 15 or 20 mags worth of ammo.

Anybody here do that, or something similiar?

[Preacherman]

Trebor, it's a nice idea, but in my experience, in a firefight, you're dropping empty mags as you reload - no time to recover them. If you took the time, including stooping to catch dropped mags, etc., you might end up a statistic! Same thing applies to filling empty mags - in the time you take to empty a couple of stripper clips into an empty magazine, someone out there might have enough time to draw a careful bead on your favorite noggin, with unpleasant results.

I know there are those who maintain that all empties should be retained, and even shooting schools like Gunsite and Thunder Ranch are teaching this for mags that still contain ammo, but in a fight, the ideal situation often doesn't arise...

[Jeff White]

Standard US Army basicload was 210 rounds for the M16. Guys in Iraq are now carrying up to 12 magazines.

Back in the old days before 30 round magazines, we used to make a chest pouch out of the cotton bandoleer and carry extra 20s that way.

Load is going to be METT-T dependent.

Preacherman, I always saved my empty magazines by dropping them down my jacket and letting them ride in their, the pistol belt kept them from dropping out. Afterwards I'd reload the mags and if I had no more ammo to load with they went back in the pouches followers up, loaded mags had floorplates up. That way you could tell by feel what you were grabbing.

Nowdays the body armor precludes that and you need a dump pouch or at least and empty sandbag tied to your gear to hold the empties.

Ammunition, water and mission essential equipment are all you need to carry....snivel gear is usually with your B bag that if your lucky, the Bn support platoon will get to you after your second night of freezing your tail off... :uhoh:

Jeff

[Ole-sailor]

I used to pack a 1911A [8+ years in Navy] A marine Gunny taught me to obtain the WWI clips, which came with a retainer ring on the bottom. If we were going into a hot area tie a retaining string to a half doz clips and the other end to my belt. It was a pain at first until I figgered out how long a string and just where to tie it. I did always have mag. to refill. :rolleyes:

[Ol' Badger]

Remington Rand 1911 I just got my fathers. He was issued it new in the wrapper in '70. I think it was made in '43? I wonder if it sat around all that time?

[Arc-Lite]

Badger...the Remington Rands for 1943 ran from #1279699-1441430 and 1471431-1609528 WW-II turned out almost 900,000 Rands

[Bart Noir]

WW-1 mags in Vietnam days? (I assume you meant Vietnam) Well, I've read that the springs will last a long time if not used much, this might have been the proof of that.

Bart Noir

[Ol' Badger]

I thought mine was special too :(

:o

[Arc-Lite]

Badger.... It is!!!!....the fact it belonged to pop, and subtract the many rands that did not make it back, or were tossed here...and that 900,000 goes to far far less....ANYTHING from 1943....is special !!!

[Battlespace]

We carried about 20,000 rounds for the Ma Duce's that made up our quad fifty mount. Had another 2,500 or so for the M60 mounted behind the cab of the 5t the quad was on.

[1911 guy]

I carried seven mags (30 rd) for a total of 210 loaded and 2 more loads in bandoliers. 630 for the M-16 and 5 loaded mags for the 1911. Never ran out, but got close once or twice.

[AhmuqGB]

I considered it a function of mission and terrain, Min was 6 mags for primary plus 1 in the weapon and 3+1 mags for my secondary after that we looked at required equipment for mission then the terrain we were going to be moving through. Short missions that needed less equipment ETC meant more ammo, and typically you would need it. Longer mission/recce=more gear less ammo. Managing the soldiers load is not a perfect science wish I had a better answer. I guess to answer the question of what we carried as a min would be 6+1 for primary, 3+1 for secondary if you have one, and at least one grenade or Pursuit Deterrent Munition(if you can get). I will also add however that even on the long duration missions we carried a second basic load in the rucks.

[oneshooter]

If I remember correctly(after 30yrs) I generally carried 10-20rds mags +1 in the well,3-4 grenades, 2 canteens,and a half belt for the 60. Never ran out of ammo,but ran out of water and grenades several times! :what:

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Deadman]

How about this chest rig? Capacity for 12 x 30rnd M16 mags and 2 x 200rnd Saw pouches. Total of 760rnds of 5.56.
http://store.tacticalassaultgear.com/cr011p.html

[NMshooter]

Seems like a load of between 20 and 30 pounds is average, with more carried as needed.

Not far off from some of the loads listed in the duty belt thread...

I wonder how well folks are able to get around with the 50 to 60 pounds of gear that seems standard in Iraq? That is some real hot weather over there, bad enough without having to run around with the heart on overdrive while bad guys are shooting at you.

In Afganistan the John Deere M-Gator seems to be a popular vehicle. Perhaps the old "mechanical mule" has finally been replaced.

[sumpnz]

Man, I nearly didn't make it out of the Grand Canyon last weekend with 30# of camping gear. That was a 30 mile hike in 3 days, and it was very steep in places, but at my finess level I can't imagine carrying 50-60# even on flat territory.

[Deadman]

Wasn't there a study by/with the U.S. Navy Seals that concluded 1/3 of a persons weight in gear was ideal?

[Jeff White]

The study that determined 1/3 of body weight as an optimal load was done before there ever was a Navy SEAL. In fact, the book that prompted the originator of the thread to start it could be considered the beginning of seriously looking at load issues in modern times. The Soldeirs Load and the Mobility of a Nation by SLA Marshall.

Jeff

[Arc-Lite]

much of the equipment has changed since this study, as well as mission requirements. mostly everything is lighter, and total time in indian country is less.

[Ian]

IIRC, the backpacking community generally agrees on 25% of body weight as a maximum pack weight. Just FWIW.

[armedandsafe]

First firefight = 1 round fired, contact distance. Had 6 rounds in Colt's 1917 and 6 rounds in half-moons in pocket.

Second firefight = 4 rounds fired, 10 and 15 feet, two targets. See load carry above.

Third firefight = 7 rounds 30-06 fired, 1 round .45 acp fired. 1917 carry as above. -06: 2 boxes of 20 in gun case. Crew with me fired 2 X 6 X 4 .38 Spl. I was the only one with ammo left over.

Fourth firefight = 12 rounds .45 acp, 6 rounds .25 acp, 12 rounds .22 LR fired. Crew with me fired 8+2+2+4 rounds .38 Spl.

Moved to Alaska, where the game doesn't shoot back.

Pops

[NMshooter]

I recommend reading that book, even if it is a bit dated.

And at less than three dollars it was well worth it.

Mostly I just want to encourage discussion and thought on the topic of "how much should I carry" as opposed to the more popular "how much can I carry".

As I read another golden oldie, "Small Wars Manual" U.S.M.C. 1940 I have noticed the importance placed on the use of pack animals and native porters.

I also found it interesting reading elsewhere about an experimental robot designed to follow soldiers around carrying cargo. The less you have to carry on your own back the better off you will be regardless of what you are doing or where you are doing it.

As far as the important question "how much ammo should I carry in combat" the answer seems to fall somewhere between 200 and 400 rounds.

[IZinterrogator]

I was carrying eight 30-rounders loaded with 28 on my vest and a 20-rounder loaded with 18 in a buttstock pouch. I also had 45 rounds of 9mm for my M9 (one in the holster pouch that went in the weapon when I rolled out the gate and two on my vest slightly right of centerline and high up on my chest). Grand total of... hold on while I do the math... 287 chances to get some. I found that the pouches available that hold six mags (one on each side) limited my arm movement a little too much for the benefit of extra ammo. If I needed more than what I had, it was pre-loaded in mags in the truck.

[Joey2]

Carried 1 bandaleer filled with 20rd mags., pack contained extra in 10 rd. clips, cargo pocket carried 2 frag. grenades.

The full-auto on the M-16 is a waste of ammo. We forbade full-auto in our Bn.

[answerguy]

I remember hearing that were some huge number of rounds expended for each casualty inflicted. Something like 100,000 to 500,000 rounds for each casualty? Anyone else ever hear of that?

[RevDisk]

I remember hearing that were some huge number of rounds expended for each casualty inflicted. Something like 100,000 to 500,000 rounds for each casualty? Anyone else ever hear of that?

Uh, far less than that. The numbers are squewed because of certain weapons in our arsenal. Certain weapons have insanely high fire rate. GE M134's on the Black Hawks, 25mm chain gun on the Bradley's, M230 30mm on the Apaches, etc. Gods, I don't like to think of the number of rounds fired by the A-10's or Spectre gunships.

[Azrael256]

the backpacking community generally agrees on 25% of body weight as a maximum pack weight Actually, the backpacking community generally agrees, no matter how light your pack is, after the 12th or 13th day, particularly on the way out, that you packed WAY too much stuff.

But yeah, I've always heard 25%.

So about this magazine retention bit: do you guys mean sticking the empties back in the pouches? Or do you carry something separate to tote them?

[Jeff White]

You have to retain your empty magazines. Ammunition is a Class V consumable item. Magazines are a Class IX repair part and are expendable/durable. That means that when you get resupply, you'll get ammunition packed in bandoleers and stripper clips, not loaded in magazines.

You can request magazines with your LOGPAC but it's not the kind of item that they stock in sufficient quantity to keep resupplying, so soon you'd be down to one or two per man if you didn't pick them up.

I used to drop empty magazines into my jacket and they'd be held there by the pistol belt. Reload them when you had time. If I didn't have the ammo to reload them with, the first break, they'd go bac in the ammo pouch, followers UP. Loaded mags were carried with the floorplates UP. That way you could tell by feel which one was loaded.

Nowdays the body armor used makes dropping the empties down your jacket more then a little problematic. I have seen everything from dump pouches to the field expediant of tying an empty sandbag to the pistol belt used.

Jeff

[PressCheck]

Trebor, it's a nice idea, but in my experience, in a firefight, you're dropping empty mags as you reload - no time to recover them. If you took the time, including stooping to catch dropped mags, etc., you might end up a statistic! Same thing applies to filling empty mags - in the time you take to empty a couple of stripper clips into an empty magazine, someone out there might have enough time to draw a careful bead on your favorite noggin, with unpleasant results.

Kind of a "catch 22". If you dump all your mags, but still have rounds left; the weapon is useless without the magazine.

[MarineTech]

As a Marine during Desert Storm, I carried an M16A2/M203. I generally carried 6 loaded magazines (180 rounds) for the M16A2 and generally had another 2 bandoliers of ammo somewhere on my person.

In my grenade vest, I carried 2 cannister (shotgun) rounds, 4 bounding frag, 2 smoke, 2 flares, and the last 14 were all HEDP.

Word of caution. Be very careful slamming yourself prone on one of those vests filled with grenades. You really don't have to worry about them going off, but even with a flak jacket on, it feels like the grenades are jammed halfway through your ribcage when the weight of you and your pack slams down on them.

[Joey2]

68-69 in the USMC magazines (20 rds)were hard to come by for the grunts. I carried a bandaleer with 10 mags. plus 1 in the rifle.

In my pack I had ammo on stripper clips.

Carried maybe 2 or 3 grenades in my flack jacket pockets.

On occasions we did almost run out of ammo.