Russian Mak went full auto, shot my hand.


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BamBam-31
May 15, 2005, 12:20 AM
Last weekend, I put five rounds through my new (to me) Walther P1 (which shot very accurately, BTW), then loaded up five rounds in my Russian Mak's mag. As soon as I slapped in the mag (pistol's slide was locked back), the slide slammed forward by itself and fired off all five rounds full auto. God knows where the other rounds went (downrange, fortunately, thanks to the four rules), but one round went through my left hand. Ouch.

I remained calm throughout the whole thing, surprisingly. I remember looking at the pistol, thinking :cuss: , then noticing that my left hand was shot. Fortunately, there was an EMT shooting at the time, and he noticed the accident right away. He had his emergency kit out in a flash, range workers were already on 911 even before I walked over to ask for it. The EMT guy (gotta go back and get his name) had my hand wrapped up and elevated in an instant and started asking me all my info just in case I couldn't answer later on.

Cops came, took a report and my Mak. Ambulance came about the same time. By that time, adrenaline had worn off, and the pain was kicking in high gear, so it seemed like the ambulance took forever. My buddy said they actually came pretty quick. Everyone (range workers, shooters, EMT's, etc.) was pretty helpful, and most were amazed that I didn't pass out from the pain or sight of the wound and accompanying blood.

Long story short, the bullet hit the base of my left thumb and exited out between the thumb and the index finger, taking a good chunk of protein with it. Needed surgery to patch things up. Fortunately (at least that's the word I kept hearing, although if I were really fortunate, the bullet would have missed me), the bullet missed tendons, ligaments, bones, etc. Mostly soft tissue damage, although one bone did break from the force of impact. I have surprising range of motion in the hand right now, even with all the damage, so the prognosis I keep hearing is that I'll regain 100% function in the hand eventually. Won't be pretty, though. Right now, it kinda looks like a baseball with all the stitching. I'm typing pretty good, however. ;)

A few thoughts:

Mortality. I got shot, and the first thing that went through my mind at the time was that I didn't get enough time with my newborn son. Didn't know the extent of the wound yet, just saw lots of blood. Although it's a bit painful, I hold my son as much as possible now. First night I got home from the hospital, I was awakened by a 5-shot burst nightmare. No more nightmares now, but that one tells me I was pretty shaken by the incident.

Gunshy. I'm not the type to fall off a bike and not get back on, especially with all the progress I've made with my pistol shooting, so I'll be back at it again eventually. I went back to the range today to let the workers know I was doing well, and the gun shots didn't rattle me any. I actually missed it a bit. Guns in general, however, I've lost a bit of passion for. I'm the most Gun-Ho guy amongst all my friends, and I'm afraid they'll think this is the end result of all that. It isn't, just catastrophically bad luck, but they'll think it anyways. I thought it a few times myself these past few days. :(

Fire sale. I put my wife and mom through a pretty bad scare. "Mrs. BamBam, are you sitting down? There's been an accident with your husband at the gun range." My father passed away this March (after a long battle with cancer), so I know when my mom first hears, she's thinking she's gonna have to bury both the men in her life, back to back. She wants me to sell all my guns, period. My wife's more reasonable. She wants me to sell all the old milsurp-type guns because they're worn and thus more prone to accidents. At this point, I'm actually willing to oblige with my wife's request simply to ease her fears. I can't sell ALL my guns, however. Be on the lookout for my Classifieds (C96 Mauser, Persian Mauser, FN49, FR8, Bulgie Mak, etc.). Maybe I'll buy something from Tiffany's with the $$$. It's not that I believe I need to sell them, it's that selling them is the least I can do to make up for what I put them through.

I dunno. Maybe I need to put some distance between me and the incident first, let my hand heal up a bit for a while. Something's wrong when I pop in "Black Hawk Down," "Band of Brothers," and "Equilibrium" and I don't get excited. I watch each gunshot and think how much damage each bullet would do. PTSD, man. :scrutiny:

I try to keep a sense of humor about it. When my friends ask me what happened, I tell them, "I thought I was The One. Guess not." I tell them I'm gonna apply for G-Unit (50 cent's rap posse where you have to be shot in order to be a member). I tell my wife if our son misbehaves, I'm gonna show him "The Hand." That's me. The doubts, the moments of mortal navel-gazing, maybe that's the pain meds talking. I wish they'd shut up. :banghead:

My wife wants to know if I can sue the guy I bought the pistol from. She thinks he may have known that it was unsafe to fire. I bought it on consignment from a local gunsmith's, and she thinks they, too, should have known that the gun was unsafe. Again, I just think it's bad luck. Or good luck, since I still have all ten digits and a whole head of hair.

Alright, enough. Sorry for the epic melodrama. :o

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pangris
May 15, 2005, 12:31 AM
I'm glad you are OK. The sad fact is the guy who sold the Mak probably knew it was unsafe/kitchen table smithed. I hate people who foolishly endanger others for the sake of recovering some $$$ on a gun they screwed up.

The problem is proving he knew that would be very problematic. If you go after the FFL, that sets a precedent that FFLs are responsible for the condition of used guns - not bad in theory, they should check them out - but in practice it would open them up for lawsuits in an unbelievably horrible, 2nd amendment slaughtering way.

The whole situation sucks badly. Glad you will recover to 100% though.

It can always be worse.

Look on the bright side - now you can say you need high dollar 1911s because you take comfort in their quality, and you don't fear they will malf on you :)

Cosmoline
May 15, 2005, 12:50 AM
Sounds like a slam fire. Check the firing pin and see if it's stuck in the out position. If so, sorry but that's not the gun shop's fault. That's why everyone says you need to clean the cosmo out of your new curio pistols or semis. Those old floating firing pins have their advantages, but they can also get jammed up in hardened cosmolline or grit. I've heard of such incidents with Maks, FN-49's and similar semis.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over the Persian Mauser, though by all means sell it if you so desire. Your wife should know that that old Mauser is safer and tougher than any firearm out of a modern factory.

Otherwise I'm stumped. I've never heard of anyone modifying a Mak to go full auto. Though clearly if it is an altered Class III firearm the shop should never have sold it.

Sunray
May 15, 2005, 12:55 AM
Geezuz! What kind of ammo were you using? I know a guy who had a semi'd Uzi that'd rock and roll using reloaded cast bullets. How did your hand get in front of the muzzle? Why did the cops confiscate your property? Will you get it back?
"...Won't be pretty, though..." That's ok. It works.
If you think you were sold a defective firearm, you'd have to prove that the seller knew it. If you used handloads, I'd almost bet you're SOL.
"...they're worn and thus more prone to accidents..." Nonsense. Excrement happens. No need to panic over one, albeit painful, episode. You won't be happy without your toys. Milsurps, of any kind, are no more inherently dangerous than any other firearm.

Tag
May 15, 2005, 01:03 AM
I'm glad your OK, and it does sound like you will be OK.

When I was working in AK I saw a guy on my boat loose his right ring finger in our powerblock, ripped it right off. Crazy things happen all the time. Again, I'm glad your ok.

From now on I would, and I will, only load one round into new (old) semi-autos.

Take care, you'll have a good cautionary tale from now on :)

Cortland
May 15, 2005, 01:04 AM
I don't really understand how you got shot -- your right hand was gripping the pistol and your left hand was on the bottom of the grip when it went off, right? I'd have thought the gun would just climb upwards... :confused:

You were very lucky to have an EMT on site. At my club we only have two items in our first aid kit -- a box of bandaids and a shovel.

Horsesense
May 15, 2005, 01:04 AM
What kind of ammo? Was this the first time that you fired the gun? Why did the cops take your gun and can you get it back?

The Mack has a floating firing pin and I suspect that the firing pin was frozen forward… uh… I hate to Monday morning quarterback but if that were the case, you should have disassembled the gun and done a thorough cleaning before shooting it. Then again someone could have gotten carried away with "lightening the trigger pull" that should be easy to determine and the parts are readily available for a fix.

Did you ask the Dr. if you would be able to play the piano? :D :D

I'm sorry about your accident and hope you have a speedy recovery.

Third_Rail
May 15, 2005, 01:06 AM
I'm glad you'll be okay.

Load one, shoot one, do that 5 times, load 2, shoot two, do that 5 times, etc., until you get to a full magazine 5 times without malfs... Break it down upon purchase and do a few function checks... etc.


Sorry if I sound harsh, not meaning to.... These same rules were drilled into my head along with the big four for any newly obtained firearms.

BHPshooter
May 15, 2005, 01:11 AM
Glad you're okay.

Cops came, took a report and my Mak.

Will you get the Mak back?

Wes

jefnvk
May 15, 2005, 01:15 AM
I'd be more concerned when the cops showed up to take a report on a guy who had shot himself with a full auto. Hope they don't find anything that would suggest you tried to modify it to shoot auto (from the previous owner).

Sounds like a slam fire, though. Sorry bout the hand.

entropy
May 15, 2005, 01:17 AM
Glad you're OK, be sure to register your Makarov with the ATF ;) Just on the odd chance you actually get it back, you'll probably want to have it gone over by gunsmith. You'll probably find the stuck firing pin as Cosmoline said, and a worn disconnetor. Is this the first time you fired it? If so, you should have done an inspection disassembly, before you took it to the range. Probably would have saved the pain.
Don't give up your guns for the reason given; If you want to sell them,fine, but if you are selling them because you think your wife and mom want that.... :uhoh: Can you say Neville Chamberlain?

walking arsenal
May 15, 2005, 01:26 AM
So will you be changing your name to Bambambambambam-31 now? :p

just kidding :o , a little levity to help you get through the pain, eh?

Sorry about your accident. Thats rough. :(

Malamute
May 15, 2005, 01:38 AM
sorry to hear of your injury. Hope you heal up well.


You might feel better shooting revolvers for awhile. I prefer them for several reasons, tho I think I have a new one to add.

longspurr
May 15, 2005, 01:40 AM
My sympathies to your hand and your situation. Don’t do anything about the firearms right now. They can’t hurt anyone if they are sitting in a cabinet. Wait 6 months – 2 years before doing anything that can’t easily be undone. I have sold guns when it seemed like a good idea and later reallllly kick myself for doing so.

Guns malfunction, I’ve seen a FN49 slam fire 1 round and I’ve seen a Airforce match shooters 45 go full auto. 5 round went downrange and no one was hurt except the shooters score- he was a little shaky the rest of the match with a different 45.

For those pointing out the possibilities of cosmoline problems - yes that can happen but the only full auto handgun I’ve seen was well maintained by a military armorer.

trickyasafox
May 15, 2005, 01:52 AM
wishing you the best in your recovery and sorry to hear about the loss of your father as well

Kevlarman
May 15, 2005, 01:55 AM
Dude! Glad to hear you're OK and not totally put off on guns.

Eveybody has bad luck once in a while, but you've gotta get back on the horse and keep at it. Don't let this incident mess you up for the rest of your life.
:)

PromptCritical
May 15, 2005, 02:10 AM
Sorry about the accident. Glad you're ok.

And people ask my why I complain when one of mine closes the slide when slapping the mag. This is exactly why I don't like it.

"Mrs. BamBam, are you sitting down? There's been an accident with your husband at the gun range."
Why is it always phrased this way? Doing that scares the hell out of people. How 'bout "Mrs. BamBam, your husband injured his hand at the range today, but he'll be alright." No reason to panic at that.

Now you have an "incident" to refer to. As in "I used to like Maks... Until the 'incident'." ;)

Edited to add: Oh, did you find the offending bullet? Neat souvenir.

ny32182
May 15, 2005, 02:37 AM
Rough experience...

It makes me think about some of the "close calls" I've had, and puts them in perspective.

I've had the slide of an auto-loader slam shut on its own upon vigorous insertion of a mag before as well. A round chambered. Only the fact that my finger wasn't on the trigger may have saved an ND at that point.

I had an AR double on me once. I believe it was either a slamfire or inadvertant bump fire, as it never did that again, before or since. I have sold the gun though, for other reasons.

The range I shoot at most often is unregulated, on DNR land. No range officer. No cell phone service. It only really gets crowded at the start of a hunting season. When I go there to shoot, I am there alone as often as not. I always considered this a safety advantage (fewer people there to shoot me in the back during a target check). However, in your situation, given that no one else was there, I would have to drive myself out of there without passing out. In a manual transmission car, no less. Something to think about.

Hope your recovery is full and fast. Good luck.

BamBam-31
May 15, 2005, 02:58 AM
Whoa. Slow down with the questions, eh? I don't type as fast as I used to. :p

I bought the Russian Mak almost a month ago. Fired it the week previous to The Incident. About 50 rounds of Barnaul FMJ trouble-free (which was the same type of ammo I shot myself with, crappy Commie econo-plink crap, I'm surprised I didn't get gangrene). I clean ALL my firearms thoroughly after purchasing them AND after firing them. I removed the pin and cleaned out the channel with GunScrubber and Q-tips. I cleaned it again after the first session, so the pistol was clean, clean, clean. Both the slide lock AND the firing pin had to have malfunctioned simultaneously for the full auto accident to have happened, eh? Either one on its own, and I've no story to tell. Poop happens, indeed.

Cops took my gun. I wasn't there to ask why, how, who, etc. Range workers said it was SOP, and that it'd be REAL HARD to get it back. Dunno why, there was no crime committed. I'd like to get it back if for no other reason than to find out if the pin was stuck, slide lock worn, etc. I didn't examine the pin hole or the pin head very closely during the cleanings. I'll call the cops first thing Monday and see what's what. I used this week mainly to get myself back into the swing of things.

Regarding the sale of guns: You know and I know that my unissued LE #4 Mk. II is just as good as, if not better than, my Savage 10FP in terms of being bomb-proof. If stuff gets sold, it's not from lack of understanding. My wife and mom have been through a lot lately, and if it means peace of mind for them and some sort of compromise between us, then off they go. Family before guns, especially if it's family AND guns if I sell off some of them. I'll put one or two up for sale initially, see if it'll be enough to appease. Keep the others out of sight (and out of mind using my Jedi powers). I'll bemoan and lament the loss of each as if it were a digit on my wounded paw. See how that plays out.

Anyways, thanks for the thoughts. I'll recover. I'll also get back out to the range. All in good time, eh? :)

So will you be changing your name to Bambambambambam-31 now?
:D

Cosmoline
May 15, 2005, 03:19 AM
Well that puts a dent in the slam fire theory. My next guess would be bad ammo with primers not set far enough in. But while that might cause one slam fire, it's unlikely to set off a string.

In light of that, I'd really push the police to give the firearm back ASAP and not to mess with it. It would be worth while to get a lawyer to write a formal demand if they give you any trouble. If they have no valid reason to keep your property, it could give rise to a spoliation of evidence suit. You always threaten them, anyway. They're cops--given the chance they'd be more than willing to threaten you.

Antjo
May 15, 2005, 03:28 AM
Wow, that's terrible, glad you're ok and noone else was hurt.

Makes me question my Mak a little bit. Mine has never given me a problem of any kind and I love shooting it. I spent days cleaning that cosmoline crap out of every crevice. That stuff will never be completely gone.

by the way, Equilibrium is the best movie EVER!! :D

No_Brakes23
May 15, 2005, 03:48 AM
I have had weak moments with my new Yugo M59. Moments of thinking, "Would it really be that bad if I fired it without cleaning all the cosmo out?"

I will be cleaning it all before firing.

Sorry to hear about your hand. Hell of a way to find out about a problem.

BamBam-31
May 15, 2005, 03:57 AM
Dude, I cleaned my guns. Still got tagged but good. :cuss:

You should by all means clean yours anyways. Brake cleaner works well on cosmo.

Tag
May 15, 2005, 04:38 AM
Good call on keeping the women happy, may the force be with you. :D

larry starling
May 15, 2005, 08:44 AM
Wow! I guess it goes to show accidents can happen at any time! I would trash the MAK after it was torn down to see what the real problem was! That is one reason why I try to avoid Military surplus guns! After spending time in the military and seeing the abuse that firearms are given I avoid them! Im also sure that things in eastern europe are worse than here, as far as quality control and abuse that the firearms recieve in there respected services! The one bright spot is that you will recover and continue to enjoy your firearms! Godspeed on a healthy recovery! :)

BryanP
May 15, 2005, 08:57 AM
First off, I'm glad to hear you're going to be okay. Hand injuries can be ugly and it sounds like this one is going to be painful and aesthetically displeasing, but otherwise okay.

Second, good call on making your wife happy by dumping the milsurps. I like them too but if keeping domestic tranquility means you can only buy nice new guns that's a sacrifice you just have to make. :D

Third, I hope you can get the Mak back just so you can figure out what happened.

Fourth, umm... how much you want for that FR-8? Or that unissued No4MkII? :evil:

30 cal slob
May 15, 2005, 08:58 AM
Sorry to hear of your injury.

Well, let me say that having gone through something like this, from my own experience time heals all wounds.

It will take time, but I think that you'll feel the itch to get out and shoot again someday.

Why don't you take a deep breath and hold off on selling your firearms? Your feelings are understandable but they are coloring your outlook right now. It doesn't hurt to wait, unless you need the money.

Kevinch
May 15, 2005, 09:13 AM
Glad to hear you're OK - it just goes to show that we need to practice safe gun handling techniques all the time - you just never know.

One thing you might want to consider, if you're of the mind to, is to keep the milsurps as collection pieces but don't shoot them.

Hope you heal up fast!

hcker2000
May 15, 2005, 09:14 AM
Hope every thing heals up good.

I noticed a weird thing on my pa-63 like this. If I take it appart with the safty on and put the slide back on it always releases the hammer. The only thing stoping it from hiting the firing pin is the little peices of metal on the back of the safty. I guess the rule with that is never never never take it apart with a mag in it.

Any way enough of my stories. Your story on the other hand is a good lesson for people like me who are just geting into shooting and don't have other shooting people around to learn from.

Also Equilibrium is a good movie and you might be able to pick up some moves ;)

possenti
May 15, 2005, 09:23 AM
Wow. You are very lucky to retain use of your hand - after it heals, of course. Your typing looks good, although I'm sure it throbs and stings a little right now...

Posted earlier: You might feel better shooting revolvers for awhile. I prefer them for several reasons, tho I think I have a new one to add.

Some years ago, I read a story in a gun rag about a guy who brought a revolver to a gunsmith and said it was "going full-auto" on him. The 'smith thought he as crazy. Upon test-firing, it truly shot all six rounds quickly with one pull of the trigger. Turns out, the back part of the frame where the hammer strikes the primer was worn somehow, and the primers were actually blowing out the back of the case, re-cocking the hammer each time. The hammer immediately fell on the next fresh round, and the cycle started again until the cylinder was spent. I don't recall what type of revolver it was, but it goes to show you that anything can happen with guns.

hcker2000
May 15, 2005, 09:59 AM
I also heard about a revolver doing this. I think it was my grandpa who mentioned it.

rust collector
May 15, 2005, 10:27 AM
I was sorry to hear of your injury, and I hope the healing goes well. There is bound to be some post traumatic stress involved, so I hope you have good and caring friends to help you through that as well.

Do recover the Mak for a professionally done failure analysis, and if you haven't already, get on Makarov.com and other Mak resources to make them aware of the problem. While there you will no doubt be checking for similar instances, but I am sure you understand the need to help prevent this happening to other shooters.

By and large, I would expect milsurps to be among the safest of firearms because they have been thoroughly vetted over a long period of use. Some may have reassembly problems however that should be noted, as with the old Ross rifles. I do hope you can get to the bottom of this and help prevent future problems of this type for others.

dev_null
May 15, 2005, 11:26 AM
Good to hear it wasn't worse. Still confused how your hand got in front of the muzzle, though. :confused:

ACORN
May 15, 2005, 11:35 AM
Sorry to hear about your mis-fortune.
The Maks have a good reputation for reliability so it's a little puzzling as to what went wrong. Have it looked over. Fix whats needed. Maks are great little guns.
I'd press hard to get it back from your local PD. I don't see why there would be a reason for them to confiscate, it other than to make sure it wasn't "intentionally altered".
I hope that in time You're back blasting away. You're a little gun shy (sorry about the pun), and that is only natural. In time your body will heal, and nerves will settle.
If you sell off your guns, You will regret it.

gm
May 15, 2005, 11:59 AM
dont get rid of your milsurps ..learn from it and move on.If anything, curiousity as to why it did what it did would make me want to correct it and learn from it so that it doesnt happen in the future. I would ask the police for the gun back and have a competent smith give it a look over and show you exactly what happened.





Ive had an sks do the FA thing before but I figured out later that the firing pin was stuck because there was a tiny piece of lead wedged tightly in the channel..at the time, it scared the bejeebers out of me but after solving the problem, its one of my favorite ones to shoot now.

EVIL5LITER
May 15, 2005, 12:14 PM
I'm glad you're ok and think of this as a reinforcement of the four rules in your mind. It only takes one ND to really shake a person up, and you had to go through five at once.

Keep the faith, and for once, you can blame it on the gun and not the shooter.

Coltdriver
May 15, 2005, 12:19 PM
What state do you live in where the police can steal your propertywith no due process or charging of a crime? Just curious.

After hearing of your experience its good that your hand will be alright.

ChillyW
May 15, 2005, 12:33 PM
coltdriver said:
What state do you live in where the police can steal your propertywith no due process or charging of a crime? Just curious.
There's a thing called probable cause. They have a weapon that went full auto on the user, with witnesses. It certainly makes sense to seize the evidence and check things out. For all they know, bambam is a gang-banger with an illegally modified weapon. So it makes perfect sense to hold onto the weapon while they investigate. If they didn't grab the gun, and he went off and shot someone with it, they'd most certainly looking at a big lawsuit against the deptartment, and shortly thereafter be looking for new jobs. They're just doing a CYA, and who can blame them?

Of course, once they realise it was just an accident, they should be giving it back to bambam promptly. Whether they actually do or not... remains to be seen. I'm hoping we'll hear back on that front, as well as progress as the hand heals.

Bwana John
May 15, 2005, 12:43 PM
I also heard about a revolver doing this.
???

Could you have "bumpfired" it? I have a friend that can do unbelievable things with semi-autos rifles and pistols, he holds them loose, AND somehow pushes the gun forward aganst his trigger finger, he can dump a mag at full auto speed, I dont think it is very safe, but i have seen him do it with both rifles and pistols. (I have done it from the hip with a AK, AR, and FAL, but I think it is stupid to do with a pistol) (actually I think it is stuipd with a rifle also, but dumping a 30 round mag out of a AK in 3 seconds IS pretty cool)

jefnvk
May 15, 2005, 12:50 PM
Possible you had primers that were too light for use in a military gun, in the ammo? I have heard of milsurps that slam fire because of soft primers. Or, as stated, prmiers not fully inserted?

El Rojo
May 15, 2005, 01:02 PM
I would trash the MAK after it was torn down to see what the real problem was!I wouldn't trash it, I would hang it up on the wall in my garage. Just a little reminder to be more careful next time. I'm not trying to be hard on you as I know too well that accidents happend. However, after accidents its good to have that knowledge in your head and remember it. If that won't keep you safer than you have ever been, nothing will.

Glad you are doing ok. You do what you want. Sell all your guns, don't sell any. It is up to you. When it comes down to it, they are just wood, synthetics, and metal. You can't take them with you when you die. Being alive is a good thing.

KONY
May 15, 2005, 01:10 PM
Bam,

Thank you for posting this ... seems like a very vivid portrayal of your experiences and thinking processes ... hope you are able to put this behind you and be able to enjoy taking your child shooting when he/she is ready.

One of Many
May 15, 2005, 01:30 PM
I am glad you are not seriously disabled by this incident, and that you shared your experience with the shooting community. I also would like to know how your hand (which should have been below the grip) came to be in front of the muzzle when the gun discharged. I suspect that the first round was the one that nicked you.

I bought 5 makarov pistols. One of them would double or triple about once every 50 rounds. I discovered that someone had tampered with the sear angle to lighten the trigger pull. After I replaced the sear, the pistol functioned correctly, and very reliably.

The problem with the slide going forward when the magazine is inserted is probably an adjustment issue with the mainspring. It is possible to loosen the screw that holds the grip in place, and slide the mainspring up or down a bit, and this does affect the operation of the slide lock.

This sounds like a combination of 2 malfunctions, one serious, and the other minor. The sear (and possibly the hammer) definitely needs to be replaced.

With a minor polish of the bottom edge of the feed ramp, the Makarov will feed ANY ammo that is within spec for overall length (OAL). This pistol has a well deserved reputation as a highly reliable firearm, but like all mechanical things, wear does occur, and uneducated tampering can negatively affect the normal operation.

I would trust my life to any one of the 5 Makarov pistols I bought, before I would my 1911 (it has had constant problems from the day I bought it new). Get yor Makarov back from the PD, fix the sear, and practice with it. It is a very accurate pistol, and is readily concealable, though a bit heavy. It is an excellent CCW gun, and would be useful as a car gun for when you travel through dangerous territory.

BamBam-31
May 15, 2005, 03:44 PM
Maks are great little pistols, don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm gonna sue Nikolai Makarov's family or anything. Please don't take this as a flame against Maks. If anything, it's--as an earlier poster described it--a cautionary tale. Maybe parts were worn, maybe parts were kitchen tabled, dunno for sure. All I know is, I did right by cleaning it and following the safety rules, and I still got hit. Hence the ol' "poop happens" adage.

As for how my hand got in front of the muzzle, again, I dunno. I locked the slide back, dropped the mag, loaded up five rounds of Barnaul, pointed the pistol downrange (w/ finger off trigger, of course), rotated it about 45 degrees clockwise, inserted loaded mag w/ left hand, slapped it in w/ left hand, then POP-POP-POP-POP-POP!!! Maybe I was still pressing downward with my strong hand when the gun went full auto, and I instinctively kept pressing it downward when it went off. There was no time to get my left hand out of the way. Dunno which round hit my hand.

Glad you are doing ok. You do what you want. Sell all your guns, don't sell any. It is up to you. When it comes down to it, they are just wood, synthetics, and metal. You can't take them with you when you die. Being alive is a good thing.

My thoughts exactly, Red. ;)

dev_null
May 15, 2005, 04:08 PM
> Dunno which round hit my hand.

The one that hurt. :evil:

Glad it doesn't seem to have damaged your sense of humor!

makanut
May 15, 2005, 05:03 PM
Maks are great weapons, but it is critical to keep the firing pin in a state where it is able to move and not stuck in the channel. That is one disadvantage of the "free floating" firing pin. It can rust in place or get stuck from lack of lubrication and become a full auto weapon. I'm just glad you're ok.

mainmech48
May 15, 2005, 05:17 PM
Glad to hear that you'll regain full use of your hand. You are very fortunate in that, as I'm sure you know.

I wouldn't be surprised if some ham-fingered kitchen table 'smithing had a hand in this (no pun intended). Even though you put fifty rds through it on another occasion without incident, my guess is that the stress of doing so may have 'finished off' a weakened sear engagement. I've seen it happen on a factory assembled (poorly) Llama .22 purchased NIB.

Some outfits put a slight case hardening on their lockwork parts prior to final installation and assembly. It's only a couple of thousandths deep. It doesn't take much messing about with an engagement surface to remove it, leaving a the relatively soft base material exposed to accelerated wear and battering. This appeared to be the case with the Llama, which doubled twice on the second mag through it and blew a hole in the ground a couple of inches from the toe of my left boot when I dropped the slide on a third.

I can understand your feeling uneasy about 'getting back on the horse'. It took me almost eight years before I could get back on a motorcycle after I dropped my BSA 'Rocket Three'. My sacral spine was broken, my pelvis was in several pieces, and I spent seventeen weeks in traction followed by almost two years walking with a cane.

I can also well understand your feeling as if you need to make some substantial gesture in order to comfort your family members. Hopefully, something less than full abstinence will suffice. My sister hasn't spoken to me since I bought my much-cherished BMW R-100GS back in '96.

My best wishes for a speedy and complete return to full function.

GRB
May 15, 2005, 05:47 PM
Both the slide lock AND the firing pin had to have malfunctioned simultaneously for the full auto accident to have happened, eh?Did the slide lock really malfunction? Some are basically meant to close if you slam a magazine into the pistol hard enough - my Glocks do it all the time. Not necessarily a malfunction. of course it could have been a malfunction. As for the firing pin being in a bad position I guess that could have caused it, but what caused the firing pin to be stuck forward. Fouling and debris (such as brass shavings) are two of the likely suspect materials but you say the gun was very clean. Over oiling has been known to cause debris to get stuck in the firing pin channel/housing.

I don't know if high primers could have been the cause, but maybe. In that case there may have been nothing wrong with the pistol. The slide could have gone forward because of slamming a mag hard into the mag well, or because it was not latched fully and properly because of human error (just giving possibilities) then if each round had a very high primer, I suppose the face of the slide could have slammed into the high primer setting it off, this would have fired and cycled the pistol, loading the next round also with high primer, which also goes off in the same way, then likewise until all are fired. My guess is though that since you fired the same lot of ammo the week before with no problems, this is unlikely. Broken firing pin, and part protruding - Maybe.

There was one other possible malfunction by the way but, not the gun. That possible one was due to shooter error. How your hand wound up in front of the muzzle is a bit of a mystery. Maybe shoter error maybe due to the gun going beserk and catching you off guard. You have to figure that one out.

All in all, it was one heck of an experience. You can be happy the gun was basically pointed down range when it went off. I can understand how you geel unhappy tough, I would not be happy about a hole in my hand either; I guess just less unhappy that it did not do more harm to me or others. By the way, nightmares can be expected for up to many months after such an incident if it really traumatized you mentally. If they persist, it is normal but also a sign that maybe you should seek some therapy to help put it to an end. Selling some guns may help ease tensions at home but, in my opinion, will do little to ease the pain of this event.

Hopefully you will make a full recovery in the not too distant future. The wife and mother will get over it and realize you were not hurt more because you pretty much, if not altogether, did it safely. You will keep your guns and have lots of safe fun with them in the future. Safe shooting.

Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery,

Glenn B

P95Carry
May 15, 2005, 06:12 PM
Amazing experience!! More than relieved for you re the injury - soft tissues will mend so much easier than smashed bone - that was a very close call.

Can't even begin to pin down the ''why'' of the whole thing but - you posting this does give us a useful cautionary tale. Maybe it is a reminder that we should always expect the unexpected, not assume etc - in other words ... during loading and first shot too - sorta be prepared. With a previously fired and clean gun tho, it sure is wierd.

I'd like to think the gun will be returned - it is rightfully yours. Do give further feedback as things develop any further.

Best wishes

another okie
May 15, 2005, 06:12 PM
Ouch. Glad you're OK.

I saw a guy shoot himself accidentally at a pistol match a year or two ago. He put his hand over the ejection port to catch the chambered round after removing the magazine. When the round ejected the primer somehow hit the sharp edge of the ejection port and ignited, punching a nice hole in the web of his hand. That's why you should just let it fall, and why range officers shouldn't try to catch the darn thing.

On a related topic, a fellow I know was shooting his new Glock 26 at the range one day and was playing with it (while pointed downrange) with the slide locked back, magazine inserted, and finger on the trigger. I told him to get that magazine out, because the Glock can indeed close and if your finger is on the trigger, BANG! He had no experience with Glocks, but fortunately is a quick learner.

cigarman
May 15, 2005, 06:54 PM
I didn't read all of the posts, just yours. Thank the Head Rangemaster that you were not hurt more tha you were and that you don't have to carry someone else' hurt on your conscience.

Yesterday I was at a gushow in Pgh and there was an AD because neither party checked the firearm.. Someone was hit by a ricochet.

One of the comments I made is that I wa trained that when I purchase a used firearm I never load it at home and I point it downrange and let the slide slam three times before I move it from the down raneg position..

I learned this from the first person who showed me how to shoot.

We can never be too careful or less vigilant because we "know" the firearm is "safe".

TMM
May 15, 2005, 07:07 PM
don't sell the milsurp-guns. compromise with your wife- bring EVERY one of your guns to the gunsmith and have him/her look them over for possible dangerous things. i think she'd agree to that.

~TMM

lee n. field
May 15, 2005, 07:16 PM
She wants me to sell all the old milsurp-type guns because they're worn and thus more prone to accidents. At this point, I'm actually willing to oblige with my wife's request simply to ease her fears. I can't sell ALL my guns, however. Be on the lookout for my Classifieds (C96 Mauser, Persian Mauser, FN49, FR8, Bulgie Mak, etc.).

Dibs on the Bulgie!

Try to hold off on liquidating for a while. She might forget in a few months. And those old bolt action milsurp rifles are not subject to the sort of runaway failure you had with the Mak.

One of my 3 Maks has a touchy slide latch like yours. I have read of others like that.

If you get any kind of report back from the police, let us know what they found with the gun.

thatguy
May 15, 2005, 07:54 PM
I didn't read all of the replies so maybe I am not adding anything new, but how did your hand get in front of the muzzle? Have you ever had a fender-bender? Did your mom ask you to sell your car and stop driving? Did your wife tell you to only drive big SUVs because they are less likely to get crushed in a wreck?

Man, if I gave up everything that had ever hurt me I would just sit around in front of the TV all day. Wait a minute, I once dropped a TV on my foot so I couldn't even do that.

ceetee
May 15, 2005, 11:25 PM
Bam Bam,

I have nothing new to add, but I'm also glad you're going to be okay. I know what it's like to be injured, and to have that injury limit your activities. Still, you write a story really well, and you've both entertained us, informed us, and reminded us all that you just can't be too careful...

Thanks!

Selfdfenz
May 15, 2005, 11:26 PM
bambam

no advice and no questions

bottom line
hope you heel, recover, get back to 100% soon.

TC
S-

flatdog
May 16, 2005, 03:14 AM
BamBam,

Sorry to here about your accident. Hope you recover fully and soon.

Don't forget to do your ROM (Range of Motion) exercises so that you will speed you recovery and maintain flexibility and strength in your left hand.

flatdog.

Black Majik
May 16, 2005, 05:18 AM
First of all, I'm glad to hear that you're doing alrite. Must have been quite a scary situation. It is amazing to hear that you'll still regain all of the functions with your hand. Very lucky.

If possible, dont let this experience discourage you from the shooting sport. Take it as a learning experience. I know you're one hell of a shot. I can tell you've spent a LOT of time into practicing, it'd be a shame to no longer utilize your talent. Keep shooting.

If there is anything that I can do, send me a PM.

Take care! :)

akanotken
May 16, 2005, 11:34 AM
Couldn't resist.

Glad you got off (relatively) easy. I can't imagine how your hand is in front of the muzzle either, but I've certainly seen a lot of firearms release the slide with a firm slap.

Don't know if you've thought of selling to a local fellow enthusiast, then maybe buying them back in a while?

Get well, Soon

BamBam-31
May 16, 2005, 03:06 PM
Thanks for the kind words, Rich. I'll see you out at the range soon. :) ;)

Just letting you guys know that the hand's mending well (very well, actually), and my spirits are high (thanks in large part to all your support!). :cool:

Here's what the lady at the PD told me about my Mak: It was filed as an injured person report, so no real investigating was done. The pistol and magazine were not inspected, just taken and stored. They're sending me a form from the DOJ that I have to fill out and pay a $20 processing fee for to "make sure I can legally possess firearms." Sounds kinda like a 4473 to me, eh? Hmm. After that's done, I can pick it up from their dept., and we'll get to the bottom of this full auto Mak thing, eh?

:)

Malamute
May 16, 2005, 03:11 PM
If you bought it from a gunsmith/dealer, you already went through all the paperwork. They shouldn't require you to go through it again if you can provide a copy of your 4473 that you did when you bought it, and there should be a nics check number too I think.

They charge you to do a check? They don't charge here when buying a gun.

BamBam-31
May 16, 2005, 03:19 PM
First of all, I'm in CA. It's a wonder we don't have an ammo tax yet. :fire:

Secondly, I think the re-DROSing is undoubtably a CYA thing. PITA, but not too bad, considering.

Legionnaire
May 16, 2005, 06:06 PM
Just chiming in to say glad you are recovering well, and that you'll get the gun back. Sorry to hear about the accident; good reminder that accidents do happen, even to the most careful among us.

Blessings.

NavajoNPaleFace
May 16, 2005, 06:54 PM
Bam Bam, I'm happy to hear that you'll likely heal back to 100%.

I know this doesn't explain anything to you regarding your situation but not too long ago my buddy and I were shooting at a local range when I decided to run some through my E. German Mak.

I've been trained to avoid the cup & saucer grip on semi hand guns so we consequently trained and shot with the left hand wrap around the right hand grip which is what I was doing this day.

Somewhere in the shooting the recoil caused my grip to pull the trigger guard down and I had a slide launch with a simultaneous strange sounding bang (strange in the sense it just sounded unnerving).

I picked the slide up and re-installed it after carefully inspecting everything I could.

Not seeing any damage I test fired it. It shot fine and has since.

In retrospect I consider myself lucky that the discharge (likely out of battery) wasn't a damaging or injuring one.

I mention this only to point out strange things occur...they just do from time to time.

Once again, glad you're relativley OK.

criticalbass
May 16, 2005, 09:08 PM
Bam Bam-31, really sorry to hear about your injury. Glad it's no worse than it is. A parallel thread has formed on the Makarov forum at gunboards.com.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=105879

You may find it interesting. Someone on there said your pistol is an IJ-70, but if so, I see no indication of it in your posts here. Maybe you could settle that question. The poster's point was that the IJ is not milsurp, not that there is a big difference in design.

I have a bunch of Makarov pistols and most of a huge Russian parts kit. I shoot them a lot, work on them in the rare instance of failure, and have converted one to .32NAA and another to .22. My Mak experience goes back a few years, and though I consider it a fine weapon, anything can break. Based on your description, your accident is unique in the collective experience of the Mak board, hence the doubt you'll see in that thread.

By the way, I got experimental, converted a Bulgy Mak to DAO, and really enjoyed the gun until I had an AD upon loading the weapon. Nobody hurt, and nobody home but me. Killed a hospital grade electrical outlet. Extra stress on the sear ate it after a few hundred rounds. Very humbling.

I think the problem with your gun will probably turn out to be sear/hammer related. By all means, replace the sear spring, sear, and hammer, or sell it to someone who is knowledgable and experienced with things Makarov. If you have photo capabilities I will be happy to help you diagnose the problem, though I do not guarantee that I will be able to figure it out. PM me if you want to discuss this offline some evening.

When you disassemble the gun, take careful note of the position and state of the sear spring. Check it for tension if it is in the right position, hooked over the slide stop/ejector. If it is not in the right position, that could be your answer.

Get well, thank your lucky stars for your good bad luck. Remember, inquiring minds want to know what the heck happened. CB

50 Freak
May 16, 2005, 09:18 PM
Hey BamBamBamBamBamOWW-31,

I'm glad your okay, and that it was just a thumb that got shot up. Could have been worse, you could have shot something a little lower off. :evil:

Anyways, get that Mak back hang it in a place of honor and then make up a story of how you were in "Cold War Moscow" and how you fought a bunch of KGB guys and their top general and how you captured his Mak, but not before you got shot in the thumb doing so. Sounds like a hell of a story, maybe you can sell it to TV.

Anyways, glad your okay. Hate to lose a fellow Cali Pro-Gunner.

P.S. First Dibs on the FN-49. ;) ;) ;)

hcker2000
May 16, 2005, 09:43 PM
I like the story idea :D

It should go some thing like...

I was sneaking around a KGB run spy/sniper range to gather inteligance for the CIA, FBI, MPAA. Some one was shooting on the range. It looked to be former soviet Furshger Numburg. He was a crafty fella with a nasty habit of exploding people. As it turns out today would be no exeption. After killing several cute kittins on the firing range with his 10mm explosive tiped rounds he took a drink of coolaid. Thats when he noticed me in the bushes. I looked at him and he looked at me. Then I sprang to my feet and then did some tubling to throw him off. He shot at me and it was a miss. I shot back and hit him in the chest 7 times with my pa-63. As he was dying he manage to get off one last shot at me. It wizzed threw the webing by my thumb. I went to confirm he was dead and loot the body. He was carying his Mak that day, so I took it to remember the day. That right there (points to mak on wall) is the very same gun that I took from that kittin killing banana.

Well what dose every one think of my story? :D

P95Carry
May 16, 2005, 09:55 PM
Well what does every one think of my story? Nahh - way too credible!! :rolleyes: :neener: :D

hcker2000
May 16, 2005, 10:05 PM
LOL

I figured every one would get a laugh out of that.

albanian
May 17, 2005, 12:53 AM
Wow! That sucks. It can and could have happened to any of us. I don't see how you are at fault and I would be mad if the cops took my gun. Do the cops have a right to take your car after you have an accident? I don't think so.

Anyway, thanks for telling the story. I know it may have been a little embarassing but it serves to keep us reminded that something like this can happen at any time. Guns are not toys and too many of us forget that. I know that on the forums we all claim to be 100% safe and mature all the time but I know that many of us do stupid things once in a while and for the most part we are lucky and get away with it. I am not saying you did something stupid, only that it makes me think.

Third_Rail
May 17, 2005, 12:58 AM
I don't see how you are at fault and I would be mad if the cops took my gun. Do the cops have a right to take your car after you have an accident? I don't think so.

Well, he IS in CA, and all, so maybe they do? :neener:

BamBam-31
May 17, 2005, 03:13 AM
Criticalbass, welcome to THR. I forgot my username/password for gunboards, so could you please direct them to this response? Thanks.


"For those of you doubting the veracity of my "story," you can call here:

Azuza Police Dept., (626) 812-3200. It happened around 1:00pm, 5/8/05.

San Gabriel Valley Gun Club, (626) 358-9906. Ask for Victoria, she's the one that called 911. Also ask for Shawn, the Range Master on duty at the time who happened to be right behind me when the Mak went full auto. Ask for Jim, the Range Master that knows me best, and ask him if I handle my guns safely or not (I always do). I've been shooting there for years, those guys know me by name.

I don't know what else to tell you other than what I've posted on THR. As soon as I slapped in a mag, slide went forward and gun went full auto. My finger was definitely not on the trigger, nor was it near the slide lock. Thank God I'm not one of the noobs that points his pistol sideways to load it.

As for my "original purpose," lack of enthusiasm for BoB, etc., I posted my experience in part to verbalize the trauma I went through with people that could relate to the situation, sympathize, and maybe learn something from it. I'm not out to sell my guns for profit, I'm not out to sue the daylights out of Gunowners, Inc. (that was my wife venting, no more, no less). I actually felt much better after the supportive posts from fellow THR members (which is a far cry from the reception my experience has received here, unfortunately).

When I get my Russian Makarov back (and it is an IJ-70, BTW, sorry if I made the mistake of calling it a milsurp if it isn't), I'll post whatever's wrong with it here, this being a Mak board and all. Hopefully, the info I'll provide will receive a more courteous response."


One of Many, thanks for starting the thread over there by insinuating that I handled my Mak unsafely. I didn't, that's for damn sure. :fire:

GRB
May 17, 2005, 09:32 AM
One of Many, thanks for starting the thread over there by insinuating that I handled my Mak unsafely. I didn't, that's for damn sure.To be quite honest it does sound as if there possibly was some unsafe gun handling. I keep wondering how on earth did you get shot in your hand. Did you hand wind up in front of the muzzle? You seem to think that was the case because you said you did not know how your hand got in front of the muzzle thereby implying that was where it wound up. I realize there could have been a couple of ways for you to have been shot in your hand that do not necessarily equal unsafe gun handling in this scenario but, unsafe gun handling is also one of the possible causes of your hand being where it should not have been. People will wonder and people will theorize. Don't be too harsh on them for that; I mean if you were not prepared to see that kind of stuff my guess is you would never have posted in the first place.

The really important thing now, besides healing, is to think the whole thing out slowly again and again to try to figure out how it happened. Not just your hand getting in front of the muzzle but the gun going off too. No matter what you may think right now - what will you think if you discover there is nothing wrong with either the pistol or ammo? If such winds up being the case, then you will definitely have to look toward yourself as having messed something up. I am not saying that is what you did but, if the gun winds up being ok, then prepare yourself, and your actions that day, for a good self examination.

I had a friend, who was firing a Colt revolver at the range. He thought there was something wrong with the cylinder. He reached out with his left hand and twiddled with the cylinder, pulling forward a bit as he did so. He let one loose. The round may have gone through his clenched left hand. No, not through it as into the hand itself, but through the forward portion of the channel formed by his hand when he clenched it around the revolver. It was a short barrel, so there was a bit of his hand around the muzzle. Regardless of where the round went, it was a revolver and lots of gas escapes at the front of the cylinder. I saw it all, I thought he had shot himself for sure. He was in a kneeling position, remained in position but sort of rose up a bit, turned pale, eyes opened really wide, look of utter shock on his face, moved left hand from gun, kept gun pointed down range with finger off the trigger. Secured the gun and checked the hand, some decent powder burns. He was baffled as to how this had happened but, it was really pretty obvious. He had his finger on the trigger when he twiddled with the cylinder - even though he had thought he took it off of the trigger. I saw it there. He swore it had not been there. Again I saw it there. Then after he calmed down and thought about it, he agreed his finger had been on the trigger.

I am not saying your finger was on the trigger. What I am saying is that such incidents often are not recalled with 100 percent clarity. Sometimes they cause brain farts because of the shock. You thought you were doing it right at the time - or you were doing it without really thinking sort of by rote and then later assume (actually later are dead set convinced) you had done it the way you think you always do it. So if the gun is found to be faulty, all the good for you, you will know you probably remembered correctly. On the other hand, if the gun checks out ok (and it should be checked by an uninterested third party like a competent gun smith), well then I would imagine you need to rethink what happened.

As for the hand being in front of the muzzle, that needs some thinking about right now. That could have been shooter error, that could have been caused by immediate reaction to the unexpected full auto (maybe shooter error maybe not), that could have been a ricochet, that could have been the rear sight on the slide ripping out flesh and breaking the bone as it raked and slammed into the wounded area 5 times. Although this may have jammed the pistol, it may not have either - so are you absolutely positive it was a bullet wound or did everyone including the doctors assume such because of the circumstances. All good stuff to think about; good to figure out if you can so as to avoid it in the future. Even when a gun malfunctions like that, your hand probably should not wind up in front of the muzzle and, thinking about what happened to cause such may help to prevent it in the future.

Hopefully you will figure it all out and avoid likewise in the future. Speedy recovery.

All the best,
Glenn B

hso
May 17, 2005, 10:42 AM
Good insight on waiting until the incident isn't still "ringing" before you make any decisions.

Instead of selling your collection you may want to take it to a competent gunsmith and have a safety check performed and then relegate some to "wall hanger" status.

Something's wrong when I pop in "Black Hawk Down," "Band of Brothers," and "Equilibrium" and I don't get excited. I watch each gunshot and think how much damage each bullet would do. PTSD, man." No, you just know the difference now and you understand better than any of us that have never had any experience with being shot or shot at. You especially understand the shock, sadness and pain that the characters were trying to communicate.

Your wife and child and mother will be happier with you than with things. The gift you can give them is the assurance that any changes this has made in you will make you safer in your entire life.

Good luck.

dfaugh
May 17, 2005, 12:13 PM
but a coupla years ago, I stuck my hand in a table saw(lost the tip of my index finger, and damaged all the rest)... and, all I can say is "this too, shall pass". Wait until the trauma has subsided, and you will look at it a bit differently. I still use the same saw (although my family cringes every time they here me fire it up), never even cleaned all the bloodstains offa it.... But I refuse to let one traumatic experience keep me from doing something I want to do...Needless to say, however, I'm a bit more careful with power tools, these days.

fiVe
May 17, 2005, 12:38 PM
Bam-Bam:

Is there any thing unusual about the magazine you used? Somehow it must've tripped the slide release when you inserted the mag, but I'm at a loss as to how. After that, I don't know how it would've fired unless (as previously stated) it is a sear problem.

Anyway, glad you are ok. Let us know what you find out.

R/fiVe

BamBam-31
May 17, 2005, 01:41 PM
Glenn,

There's a bullet-sized entry wound, powder burn around the entry wound, and a nice exit wound. That tells me it wasn't the rear sight. ;)

I was talking to some guy at Turner's the other day that started coming up with some squib, bullet down the mag theory, but the angle in which the bullet went through my hand would indicate that it came out of the muzzle.

Look, if shooter error means I either might have flinched at the unexpected full auto, or I instinctively tried to wrestle the gun when it did, then maybe. I don't see how either can be labelled "unsafe gun handling." I pointed it downrange, I kept my finger off the trigger, I followed the four rules. Unless there's a fifth rules that states, "In the event your gun goes unexpectedly full auto while loading a magazine, you must maintain an iron grip on it and not allow the muzzle to runaway," I didn't handle my Mak unsafely. It was an accident. And I was scary calm when the whole thing went down, I have perfect recollection of the entire event. I wish I could give out phone number to individuals that were there, but this is the Internet, eh?

Go back to the gunboards thread. Sounds to me like people are offended that I named my gun, their beloved Makarov, as the offending pistol. They almost sound like Glockophiles that get offended and defensive anytime a malfunction with the pistol is even suggested, nevermind the facts. Again, I'm not denigrating the Makarov, just stating the facts. I'm almost certain I'll find questionable parts in the pistol once I get it back. There are those there that want so badly to believe in the Mak's design that they think I made this story up, for whatever reason, like I don't have a hole in my hand. :banghead:

At least you posted your questions with civility, Glenn. Thanks for that. :)

Oh, and the mag in the Russian Mak was the mag I took from my Bulgie. Had an extended brass floorplate on it from Mak.com. I also installed a Wolff 21# recoil spring in the pistol. That's it.

atk
May 17, 2005, 01:50 PM
fiVe,

While I can't discount odd magazines on Bam-Bam's behalf, they're not necessarially at fault. Sometimes springs get weak, or guns get worn the right way, and the slide will slip off the catch when a sharp impact occurs (including putting in a new magazine).

sturmruger
May 17, 2005, 02:39 PM
Bam-Bam don't listen to all of the naysayers. It is normal for guys to rip on other guys on the internet. I have shot a full auto rifle before and it was a quite a handfull. I can't imagine how shocking it would be if a pistol did the same thing. It makes perfect sense to me what happened. I hope all get better in a hurry so you can get back out to the range.

Carlos
May 17, 2005, 03:42 PM
All I can say is "Wow". Very glad you're OK BamBamBamBamBamBamBam31.

I have a PA-63 that I think'll I'll clean and lube tonight. I've owned two Russian maks a long time ago and only sold them because I got tired of the begging.

Now, they're hard to get again. :(

Kramer Krazy
May 17, 2005, 03:44 PM
Awe....admit it....you handled the gun in an unsafe manner. :neener: :D

I, also, am glad that you weren't hurt any worse than you were and that no one else was injured in this incident. You'll definitely have to tell us what you find out about the gun, when you get it back. I appreciate you sharing your experience with us. I've never had a slam-fire on any of my firearms, and have not given a pistol any consideration of this kind of malfunction...until now. I can picture a slam-fire on an auto pistol very easily leading to an unloading of the mag. Just be glad you didn't have a 17-round, or larger, magazine. That could have gotten messy. I wish you well in your recovery.

Malamute
May 17, 2005, 04:31 PM
Thinking about how Bam-Bam's hand got in front of the gun, it isn't too hard to see. Put your hand in position under the grip as if inserting a mag, hand cupped under the other hand still with some upward pressure. Hold that position, now consider the pistol firing 4 rounds instantaniously while your hand is there, and not expecting it. The gun is going to back up when firing 4 rounds fast, the weak hand may not have moved forward as much as the gun moving back behind it, likely with the last round going through his hand. Really doesn't seem hard to believe.



I'm still curious how the revolver someone mentioned went full auto when loading? :what:

50 Freak
May 17, 2005, 07:12 PM
I can't believe people are giving BamBam a hard time about his Mak. Let me phrase this so you knuckleheads understand. Crap happens!!!. Everything will fail at least once somewhere down the line. Nothing is infallible, especially a firearm made before most of you were just a twinkle in your dad's eye.

After reading BamBam's post, I can see it happening to me and I've got decades of gun handling experience under my belt. So all of you armchair Playstation commandos, shut the hell up. BamBam had the sacks to post an accident that happened to him and your fragging his ash.

Hate to tell you, a Makarov is not the most precise firearm on the market. It was produced by the hundreds of thousands in a very short time. There are bound to be some defects in a percentage of them. Like I said before, BamBam is lucky he didn't shoot little BamBam off. I can only attribute it to his skill with handling firearms.

Watching your 6, BB

Sawdust
May 17, 2005, 07:33 PM
What 50 Freak said; jeez, some people. :rolleyes:

Sorry to hear of your accident, bam-bam, and hope that you feel better soon.

Sawdust

50 Freak
May 17, 2005, 08:02 PM
Was just thinking again about this incident. And it just reminded me of a couple of things that happened to me.

I had a SKS (Chinese, full size) that would "slam fire" on a consistant basis. I'd empty a 10 round mag in a second even if my finger was off the trigger. Turns out some fool had tried screwing with the sear and made it that way. Didn't happen all the time though. Made me lose all confidence in SKS's period. Fixed and sold the darn thing. Actually sold or gave away the other 2 SKS's I also had.

Second gun is my FAL quick change para. I replaced the springs with aftermarket ones designed to lighten the trigger. I also replaced the standard lower with a lightweight one and added a few other aftermarket lightweight products. Rifle weighs about 7.5 with a red dot (and that is pretty good for a 308 battle rifle). Only problem is if I don't shoulder it tightly, it will let off a couple of double taps. It's especially fun when I put the 9mm sten conversion on it.

First time shooting it at an indoor range, it shoot... bang, bang, BBBBRRRRAAAAPPPPP. Luckily I only had 10 rounds loaded in the mag at the time. Unluckily I had a Sheriff shooting in the lane on my left and a couple of FBI guys on the range on my right. Guess they thought I was one of them as they didn't give me any hassles. Good thing they didn't notice the brown smelly stain at the seat of my pants when I packed up my stuff and VERY QUICKLY left.

BamBam-31
May 17, 2005, 08:28 PM
:D LOL!! Thanks, guys. Man, I love this place.

Regarding making up ninja stories: Nah, don't need to. Next time someone asks if anyone's ever shot someone, I'll raise my right hand and say, "Yeah. Wasn't pretty. Rather not talk about it." If someone asks if anyone's ever been shot by someone, I'll raise my left hand and say, "Yeah. Wasn't pretty. Rather not talk about it." All in one fell swoop. :D

50 Freak
May 17, 2005, 09:10 PM
Oh Oh Oh....

Use my favorite mall ninja lines.....

"I could tell you but I'm not permited to for national security".

or

"I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you".

or

"I could tell you, but there are still operatives there and I can't risk releasing their names".

or

"I could tell you, but I've been sworn to secrecy by the president"

:evil: :evil: :evil:

Kevlarman
May 17, 2005, 09:17 PM
Woo, join the club! Er, except I was wearing a vest at the time... :D

thorn726
May 17, 2005, 09:26 PM
My wife wants to know if I can sue the guy I bought the pistol from. She thinks he may have known that it was unsafe to fire. I bought it on consignment from a local gunsmith's, and she thinks they, too, should have known that the gun was unsafe. Again, I just think it's bad luck. Or good luck, since I still have all ten digits and a whole head of hair.


eeeeeeeeeeerrrgggg. that doenst really seem right.

sorry about the misfortune though. man that had to hurt.

these are the stories that make me keep the mean end well away from my hand.

at least yer not as dumb as my worker who found a .22 in a pile of junk, and after being told to put it away unloaded, foolio loaded the derringer, snapped it shut, and put a bullet thru his hand.
his injuries were less then yours, but more stupid.

Sulaco
May 17, 2005, 10:15 PM
Glad to hear you are healing well and that you will be getting your gun back. I know that has to be a relief.

I understand what you mean about appeasing those close to you. I applaud you for doing the right thing.

Let us know what you find out regarding the Makarov. My interest is piqued.

One of Many
May 17, 2005, 11:45 PM
One of Many, thanks for starting the thread over there by insinuating that I handled my Mak unsafely. I didn't, that's for damn sure.


Sorry you were offended, that was not my intention.

What I wrote.

It sounds like some unsafe gun handling, combined with multiple failures/adjustments of parts in the gun.

Your initial account made it sound like improper gun handling, combined with mechanical failure. You later supplied more information that seems to refute the assumption of careless handling.

My intention was to alert users of the Makarov of a real case of injury related to malfunction, and reinforce due caution of used guns in unknown condition.

Peace to you, and a speedy recovery

walking arsenal
May 18, 2005, 01:08 AM
Actually, you made it sound like he dinged with the gun and thats what made it malfunction along with his "unsafe" gun handling. :rolleyes:

BamBam-31
May 18, 2005, 02:15 AM
It's cool, I'm not one to hold grudges. Takes too much energy. Peace right back at ya. ;)

Thing is, I know I did right. If I was only 99.99% sure, I'd prolly hide under a rock somewhere for the next several months, not post about it here on THR. I got off pretty light, all things considered. And if people start saying, "Hey, remember what happened to BamBam?" and take an extra precaution or two, then all the better, eh? :)

flatdog
May 18, 2005, 03:46 AM
BamBam,

You have shown yourself to be a class act.

Take care of that hand.

flatdog.

hcker2000
May 18, 2005, 07:07 AM
I'm still curious how the revolver someone mentioned went full auto when loading?

Wasn't went loading as far as I head it was right after the first shot. From what I heard it was the primer leaking gas back with enough force to push the hammer back.

ScottsGT
May 18, 2005, 09:47 AM
Sounds like a true AD, not a ND!

Good luck with the healing and with making the wife happy :D
Please keep us posted as to what you find out about the Makarov, preferably in a seperate post so it will be easier to find. Hey, I'm lazy that way! :p

GRB
May 18, 2005, 10:52 AM
I hope you realize I am not saying you handled your pistol unsafely. What I am saying is that there apparently is the distinct possibility of such if only because the hand wound up in front of the muzzle. As I said in my earlier post, I understand there are a few ways your hand could wind up in that position without it being due to unsafe gun handling. I am just posting other possibilities because I know from experience and from what others have shared with me, and from my studies, that remembering everything perfectly is just about impossible. Of course you remember what you remember and to you that memory is perfectly held, it is crystal clear and you have no doubt it is correct. Though my bet is that if questioned on details over time your memories would change and, right now your meories would differ from those of others if someone questioned them objectively as to the finer details. This is just the way the little gray cells work. No big deal, I was only raising the issue so you could decide if you wanted to take a look back at this later on in a different light than under the current glare of the online spotlight.

As for it being a bullet wound, yeah that sure sounds like one to me too. Agaiun only raising possibilities.

All the best,
Glenn B

BamBam-31
May 18, 2005, 01:45 PM
I am just posting other possibilities because I know from experience and from what others have shared with me, and from my studies, that remembering everything perfectly is just about impossible. Of course you remember what you remember and to you that memory is perfectly held, it is crystal clear and you have no doubt it is correct. Though my bet is that if questioned on details over time your memories would change and, right now your meories would differ from those of others if someone questioned them objectively as to the finer details.

I understand what you wrote the first time around, and I'm telling you again, I remember the entire incident with crystal clarity, as impossible as that may sound to you. If other witnesses' accounts differ, it'll be because their attention was elsewhere the exact moment it happened (be it from shooting, watching other shooters, etc.). If memories change over time, well, not much I can do about that. Right now, I remember it pretty darn well.

Funny thing: I wrote about a guy they call "Sarge" a while back, and he happened to be two lanes over to my right that day (he was in #15, I was in lucky #13). When I went back to the range to talk to the range workers the other day, Jim the Range Master told me that Sarge pulled him aside and told him that he saw it happen. Sarge said I did well to keep my head, despite the unexpected full auto and despite getting shot. I don't know him personally, that's just what Jim told me. And Sarge ain't the easiest guy to please, either.

I was shooting with two other buddies that day, Beetle Bailey being one of them (any day now, man), but my guess is that both were too busy setting up and/or shooting to have actually witnessed the incident. Right after the full auto, Shawn the Range Master kept yelling, "Get a tourniquet! Get a tourniquet!" and started taking off his belt. This concerned me somewhat, and I think Beetle noticed. He took his T-shirt off and handed it over to me so I could bandage the hand instead. (He had two layers on, so it wasn't like he was butt nekkid, folks. ;) ) Gotta love friends that'll give you the shirts right off their backs, eh? :)

Anyways, I'll be sure to start a new thread about the Mak once I get it back. I'll bring it to a smith and have him check it out. Haven't even received the DOJ forms from Azuza PD yet, however. :rolleyes: Thanks again for all the kind words and support, everyone. :)

criticalbass
May 19, 2005, 02:21 AM
Bam Bam, thanks for your reply to my post. I have posted a link and a reference to your post #72 on the Makarov forum.

Any comparison to the "Glock is God" crowd should be enough to get critics to lighten up. :D

Since you are not a regular visitor to the Mak forum, you would naturally not have a feel for the personalities of specific members there. We pretty much run the gamut from quick to judge to very nonjudgmental, and the insulation provided by the nature of the internet fosters frankness.

Your willingness to share specifics relating to your accident is very convincing to me, though I did not need convincing. However, the unqualified support you are no doubt getting from those close to you is unlikely to be mirrored on the internet. Please understand this has nothing to do with you. It's the nature of the internet.

Your willingness to share information about this accident may well serve to save others from a similar occurrence, and that is a real testimony to your integrity.

It will probably help to understand the quickness of Makarov enthusiasts to defend the design. That comes in large part from enduring years of "commie junk" comments. One post on this thread sort of ran in that direction. It was a member who is a Colt devotee, and seemed to imply that Colt weapons are free of such malfunctions :rolleyes: . I was not offended :cool: . He is a Colt guy, and I'm not, though they have made some very fine weapons.

My greatest wish in this matter is that you emerge whole, in body and in spirit, and that this accident does not become a defining moment. Defining moments often anchor us to a moment in time, and can color lives anywhere from years to permanently. If you read that as "get over it," I mean it only in the most positive and supportive sense. CB

GRB
May 19, 2005, 02:31 AM
Sure is comforting to know that others would jump in and help the way they did.

BluesBear
May 30, 2005, 01:29 AM
Bam-Bam, hows the hand healing? I feel for you. Having a bum hand is,
er, um, shall we say,
no day at the Beach.

Personally I can easily understand how your hand was injured and anyone who can't is stupid.


What's the word on your Mak? Have they returned it to you?

Cortland
May 30, 2005, 02:45 AM
Personally I can easily understand how your hand was injured and anyone who can't is stupid.
Well gee, that settles it. :rolleyes:

BamBam-31
June 22, 2005, 08:09 PM
Thanks again for all the kind words and support. Thought some of you might like an update.

Regarding the Mak: No word. It's been just over a month since I sent in my Gun Release Application to the DOJ, and still no word, so I called them today. Turns out, the quoted 30 day processing time was rather optimistic. He told me to call back if I hadn't received anything from them in the mail by the end of July. :banghead:

Much better news regarding the hand:

Ta Da!!

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25726

The hand's healing VERY well. It's come a long way from the mangled, bloody, gaping hole it was that day at the range. The scar's not even as wicked as I thought it'd be, thanks in large part to a very capable surgeon. Range of motion is already almost completely there. Two weeks ago, the final remnants of stitches and scabs came off, and I finally began to exercise the hand. Couldn't touch the tip of my thumb to the tip of my pinkie. I can do it now with ease, but I still have to concentrate to touch the base of my pinkie. It's getting there. Doctor says the swelling wont go away for another six months. Hmm.

First PT I did was a quick stint of Halo on Xbox and Bust-a-Move on PS2. Wasn't easy, but it was a great way to get the thumb moving w/o thinking too much about the discomfort. I asked my doctor if it was a good idea, and he said: "Oh, yeah! Left analog stick, baby!" :D.

The strength is also coming back, although not quickly enough for me. Two weeks ago, the grip strength in my left hand measured a pathetic 32 lbs. (as compared to 124 lbs. for my right). I'm sure it's more now, since I've been squeezing the Theraputty religiously, but I still can't do the really heavy stuff. No hockey for me yet. It's a great relief, though, that I can resume pretty much all my other daily activities, especially the diaper changes for my newborn.

I'm still shooting. Heck, I went shooting when the cast was still on my hand. Only revolvers and .22's at first, but I've improved enough to where I can rack the slides on my autos, so I've been shooting those as well. My wife, bless her heart, has been really supportive of me getting back into shooting. My mom might still have issues with it, but she's accepting it a little more each day, however grudgingly.

I did have to sell a few to appease the women. Final count: Both the Russian and Bulgarian Makarovs had to go, as did the Yugo SKS. :( The FN49 was supposed to go as well, but when I brought it out, my wife said, "Well, it is kinda pretty," so it stays. I've since purchased a Sig Trailside, a Beeman P3, and a K-31 to fill the void left in my collection. Might have an IZH-46M coming my way, too. (Damn you, Standing Wolf!!).

The worst is behind me, and it wasn't all that bad, all things considered. I'm kinda infamous at the range now ("Hey, that's the idiot that shot himself!" :scrutiny: ). Only thing left, other than a little more PT, is to get the damn Russian Mak back so I can find out what the heck happened.

I'll keep y'all posted. ;)

Selfdfenz
June 22, 2005, 08:40 PM
Good for you. A very good and even lucky outcome.

I can see that hand is already well enough that a 12oz can of ice cold adult beverage would fit, even now :D

Best,

S-

jobu07
June 22, 2005, 09:02 PM
Glad you're recovering man! Now, do you have any big plans for the reunion between you and your long lost mak? Maybe a long day at the range followed by some light cuddling over a few drops of oil? :D

chaim
June 22, 2005, 09:16 PM
I'm a bit late to this thread. I'm very glad you were OK. The hand is looking pretty good, not too bad a scar.

I'm glad you didn't have to sell off the collection. I was going to suggest what one other already did- offer to take any guns the wife is uncomfortable with you shooting to a smith to check out for safety.

As for the other board, I remember when I had an interesting situation (during the DC sniper stuff) that I posted on TFL and someone cross posted it. On the board where it was cross posted people had all kinds of nasty things to say about me and basically called me a liar. On other boards people don't know you as well (though even here we only know your internet self, but you have established a reputation). I guess people are more cynical with complete strangers. Then there is the fact that online some boards are generally polite and well managed and some are populated with a bunch of jerks.

P95Carry
June 22, 2005, 10:03 PM
Bam bam - good to see healing going so well - from your early description I would not have expected such a good result - as you said - must be a good surgeon!

Hope that darned gun does get back before too long - still intrigued to know more.

BluesBear
June 22, 2005, 11:48 PM
BB31, it's great to see you recovering so well !

Hang in there with the PT. Been there, done that, er, um, make that Am there & Doing that. No pain no gain.
And make sure you're getting enough vitamins and minerals. I ran out of vitamins for three days and really noticed the difference.

Also glad to know you're back at the range and the collection is healthy.

GRB
June 22, 2005, 11:51 PM
BamBam31,

Speedy and full recovery. Nice to read that you are doing better as each day passes.

Best regards,
Glenn b

bogie
June 23, 2005, 10:02 AM
Hey, BamBamBamBamBamOhBleep!

Darn glad you're getting better.

Look at the bright side it wasn't a .45. It wasn't glasers.

There was a guy on the old Usenet/WWIV boards who claimed that FMJ ammo was the best general purpose ammo. When pressured, he revealed that he liked to play fast draw with a SAA, and had accidentially shot himself in the leg.

On two different occasions.

I'll bet the ER folks had some REAL fun the second time.

El Tejon
June 23, 2005, 10:08 AM
A speedy recovery to you, Bam.

Have seen guns go full auto before. :eek: You handled it as well as anyone could. :)

AlexI
June 23, 2005, 10:50 AM
My guess would be someone honed the sear too much on this Mak in the past. I have heard about Maks going auto for this reason, from an army major back in Russia. He was competing in the army shooting competitions where they used service weapons, and he said it was common practice for the regularly competing officers to hone the sears on their issued pistols. It was kind of winked at, even though very much against regulations. So once in a while someone's pistol went full auto (which was, off course, followed by a serious a** reaming for the offender).

Alex.

flatdog
June 24, 2005, 02:10 AM
I would just like to add my good wishes to all the others. From the photos you look to be well on the way to a full recovery. You should put your surgeon on your Christmas list.

Stay at your ROM exercises. The pain just lets you know that your nerves are healthy. ;)

flatdog.

bogie
June 24, 2005, 03:20 AM
Oh, and while we're at it...

BamBamBamBamBamOhBleep (hey, messin' with a bro is the most sincere form of mess-with... we love ya, dude - just point that thang the other way...), always dry-fire first.

And inspect your bore before starting a string of fire.

CAS700850
June 24, 2005, 09:42 AM
Glad all is going well. Hope all goes well on teh home front. Maybe with all you are selling, you can buy a nice toy for your son, something nice for the Mrs., and a little something new for yourself. Maybe a revolver? :D

Continued good luck with the recovery.

BamBam-31
June 24, 2005, 02:29 PM
Thanks, everyone. :)

Actually, in looking at my pics again, the whole scar's not completely visible. It's about twice the area of the dark scar tissue in the first pic, extending to the bottom of my thumb where the webbing should be. The bullet basically blasted my hand open like two slabs of bread in a sandwich. Like I said, the hand's come a long way since then. The entry wound's barely visible now--it helps that I've since scrubbed off the surrounding powder burn that made it look like an evil eye. It's all coming along nicely.

Unfortunately, the pieces I've sold didn't really generate all that much cash. Didn't cost that much to begin with, either. Not really about the money anyways, more about comfort level for my wife and mom. That's getting there, too.

Skunkabilly
June 24, 2005, 06:50 PM
Hey, how was your first father's day?

BamBam-31
June 24, 2005, 10:35 PM
Pretty good. Went with my family to visit my dad at Forest Lawn, then had lunch at CPK, then caught a matinee showing of "Batman Begins." Awesome flick. Thanks for asking. :)

BTW, just came back from the therapists'. I've got about 80 lbs. grip strength in the hand now. ;)

Monty
June 25, 2005, 05:16 PM
Thanks for relating your experience. I've got a Bulgy Mak that doubled on me a few times at the range on the first trip, that or I accidentally bump fired them....anyway, blamed it on not cleaning it good enough the first time (thought I had been pretty through) and brought it home and cleaned it again finding a few spots I may have missed (the sear and the firing pin channel, cleaned but not good enough). Second time at the range, I didn't have much time for it cause it was a rifle day but I did have time to slam a full mag and go through it. Hearing about your experience and reading all the good comments here have convinced me I wasn't being as careful as I need to be with this oldie but goodie and I'll treat it with alot more care over my next few trips to the range until it proves itself. Maybe even run it back into Makarov.com and let them take a peak.

Anyway, thanks again and glad to see the hand healing up nicely :)

GunGoBoom
June 25, 2005, 06:42 PM
At my club we only have two items in our first aid kit -- a box of bandaids and a shovel. :eek: :D Glad you're healing up!

BamBam-31
June 26, 2005, 02:29 AM
Got the release letter from the DOJ today. Didn't even have to wait til the end of July. Looks like some .gov workers actually earned my $20 processing fee. Good for them.

I'll go to Azuza PD on Monday to pick up the Mak and bring it in to my smith on Tuesday (they're closed Sundays and Mondays). The end is in sight, folks! We'll get to the bottom of this once and for all.

IZinterrogator
June 26, 2005, 02:47 AM
After seeing the pictures of your hand, I have figured out why you got shot. Those meathooks are too damn big for a Mak! :neener:

Skunkabilly
June 28, 2005, 08:49 PM
Pretty good. Went with my family to visit my dad at Forest Lawn

The Los Feliz one?

AtticusThraxx
October 8, 2007, 08:45 PM
Wow Bam glad our ok dude. Good object lesson for the rest of us. Though as far going after the guy you bought it from for being aware of a problem....well that bugs me a bit. Sure any knucklehead with a Dremel and some Loc-Tite can render a firearm unsafe, but ultimately YOU are responsible for operating a safe weapon in a safe manner. I know you already know that. You see the guy and deck him, that's one thing. But leave the lawyers out of matters of personal responsibility.
Of course having said all that...watch I'll shoot myself handling an "unloaded" weapon!

Big45
October 8, 2007, 08:59 PM
wow what a thread resurrection!

Avenger
October 8, 2007, 09:12 PM
Did you ever figure out what the cause of the AD was?

Creeping Incrementalism
October 8, 2007, 09:15 PM
ultimately YOU are responsible for operating a safe weapon in a safe manner.

AtticusThraxx is so tough, a 50 AE Desert Eagle could go full auto and all the shots would still be within 2 MOA.

Bam Bam still posts here, so maybe he can post an updated photo of his hand so that we can see what two years of healing has done.

AtticusThraxx
October 8, 2007, 09:52 PM
I don't know Creep...tough is shooting yourself and staying upright and conscience.

Smart is not getting shot at all.

I'm smarter then I am tough. So far.

grimjaw
October 8, 2007, 09:52 PM
Ack, just what I get for referencing this thread as an example of stuck firing pins: resurrection.

Here was the outcome.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=145094

Hope the hand is doing OK BamBam-31.

jm

HammerBite
October 8, 2007, 09:59 PM
It was interesting to read the insinuations of unsafe gun handling in this thread. I did a little experiment.

I held a pistol in my strong hand with the heel of my weak hand pushing up hard on the base of the magazine, as if I had just slammed it in. I then jerked the gun back a bit and rotated the muzzle up, as if it had suddenly gone full auto. My weak hand immediately slipped off the gun and flew up in front of the muzzle! I can very well see the incident happening exactly the way Bam Bam described, and I don't see how he could have done a thing about it.

AtticusThraxx
October 8, 2007, 11:10 PM
OK Hammer I'll bite! First off, yes it's possible to come up with a scenario where the Four Rules may not prevent an accident. May very well be that Bam ran into that. Reading his posts seeems like he has a good grip on things.No pun intended.
However let me humbly make these points:
1. I was taught to treat releasing a slide, chambering a round just like it was going to fire. I thank my dad for that.
2. Had the weapon been properly cleaned and inspected the odds of this happening would have been greatly reduced.Again, thanks dad.
3. The very fact that Bam shot himself under any circumstances on a range leads one way past insinuating.

Look I'm far from perfect and have done dumb things, no doubt. But this definately could have been avoided.
Now that I've talked all this stuff, guess where my Makarov is ? Stripped, on the bench and about to get a cleaning like you've never seen!
Good news is Bam is ok, and we all get a reminder about gun safety.

BamBam-31
October 9, 2007, 12:48 AM
Holy Lazarus, Batman! :p

Hand's doing dandy, thanks. In fact, aside from the so-so scar (not quite as gnarly as I thought it'd be), the hand's 100%. Strength is all there and then some. My slap shot is actually harder now, go figure. ROM is prolly right around 95% or more. There's a line that goes across my right palm that the tip of my right thumb can bend about 1/4" past. My left thumb just points right at it. Big whoop. Actually, when I sit back and think on it, I'm astounded by how lucky I was, all things considered.

I can understand why some would think my accident was a result of unsafe gun handling. Again, it wasn't, but it doesn't piss me off as much as it initially did. It's such a freaky thing, gun going full auto in that position, it's hard for most people (including me!) to understand it all. I think HammerBite pretty much nailed it, though. Judging from the angle of the wound channel, my hand was pretty flat when it got hit. Like it'd be if your hand slipped off while slamming in a mag.

If anything, it's more a cautionary tale on cleaning your guns. IIRC, I only sprayed a bit of brake cleaner in the firing pin channel and wiped quickly with a Q-tip. Since the Q-tip came out looking clean, I assumed I was done and all the cosmo was out. Wrong. I still remember the brownish waxy piece of something my smith pulled out of the gun. Sheesh.

Anyways, I'm shooting more than ever now, and the collection's...well, it's grown some. ;) :D

yesit'sloaded
October 9, 2007, 03:17 AM
Do you still have the Makarov that did the deed? (I know the gun didn't "do" anything but you know what I mean)

BamBam-31
October 9, 2007, 03:18 AM
Oh, and someone wanted updated pics, eh? Here ya go:

BamBam-31
October 9, 2007, 03:20 AM
Yup, still have it. Shot it some, too! Will prolly hold on to it just cuz. Like the guy at the gun shop said, "Don't let the lil' bastard beat ya!" :p

Harley Quinn
October 9, 2007, 03:29 AM
Hi,
You mentioned the town of Azusa, I know of that town in CA. if that is it must have been an ok shoot, or else you would have never gotten it back.

Lucky you.

HQ

Sheldon
October 9, 2007, 03:31 AM
First off, glad to hear you're ok. Had that happen to a friend here at work who took out his milsurp pistol and had it go full auto too. It was a Swedish pistol of some sort that shot the 38 auto. He was shooting 38 Super thru it even after I told him he shouldn't. He also shot his hand and nearly took his pinky off. Luckily he didn't hit any of the other guys there with him.

silverlance
October 9, 2007, 04:57 AM
Bam, I'm glad I read this thread.

After reading this thread, I took out my bulgarian mak, made sure both magazine and chamber were empty, and then locked the slide back. I then inserted a magazine and tried to slam the bottom to make the slide drop. It did not.

Then I removed the magazine and gave the gun a good thump to the mag well again. SCHALCK! I repeated this five times, with five slide slams. The gun is in fine condition, excellent actually.

Tomorrow I will be detail stripping the gun down, and checking to make damn sure that the FP channel is clear. Over the next month, I plan to strip each gun I have (and this will be quite a task as I have well over 60) and do the same process - detail strip down to the itty bitty parts and clean thoroughly, whilst checking for worn parts.

plexreticle
October 9, 2007, 05:07 AM
Glad you didn't shoot someone else.

BamBam-31
October 9, 2007, 05:11 AM
silverlance, put a snap cap in that mag. That more accurately reproduces what happened at the range. ;)

vis--vis
October 9, 2007, 05:27 AM
I think I've missed it. What was the final cause of the full auto mak determined to be once you got the gun back. You haven't posted on it. Did you take it to a smith?

BamBam-31
October 9, 2007, 05:30 AM
Firing pin was stuck forward in firing position. Smith said it was cosmoline. Slide lock didn't look too worn, either. I've since learned that Maks have a tendency to slam shut on loaded mags, so you're supposed to load them with slides forward, then rack.

One of Many
October 9, 2007, 10:48 AM
There is a simple way to determine when the firing-pin channel needs cleaning. There is no firing-pin spring , so the firing pin is free to move in the channel. Unload the Makarov, and hold it near your ear while shaking it back and forth; if you hear the firing-pin rattle then it is working properly.

If you do NOT hear the noise of the firing-pin moving, it is time to remove the safety, slip the firing-pin out, and scrub the crud out of the channel. The rest of the gun does not need to be disassembled in order to do this. It takes only a second or two to remove the firing-pin. A small cotton tipped swab and some solvent will work to remove powder fouling and lacquer buildup due to shooting imported ammo.

First time removal of cosmolene may require wrapping a bit of steel-wool around a very small screwdriver to scrape the dried gunk loose; after that initial cleaning, a bit of solvent and a swab should be all that is needed.

Kimber1911_06238
October 9, 2007, 10:53 AM
Good thing you were following the 4 rules of safety, otherwise it could have been much worse. Glad you're ok now

mattk
October 9, 2007, 11:09 AM
You sir are blessed! The hand is full nice little veins and arteries and bones and tendons. The bullet missed them all!!!

Glad your ok.

K-Romulus
October 9, 2007, 11:20 AM
#1 - I'm glad things turned out as well for you as they did. Very lucky to have a gun malfunction and not lose something permanently (tissue, function, eyesight, etc.)

#2 - This part shows that nothing is wrong with you:
Something's wrong when I pop in "Black Hawk Down," "Band of Brothers," and "Equilibrium" and I don't get excited. I watch each gunshot and think how much damage each bullet would do. PTSD, man.

It shows that you are now acutely aware of the violent BS that (anti-gun-owner) Hollywood churns out as "entertainment" to be fed to the masses. You know the real deal when it comes to guns and gunshot wounds. It is a traumatic, life-changing event to shoot a person, even yourself, and witness the damage done by the slugs.

Cannonball888
October 9, 2007, 12:39 PM
Bam-Bam,
I'm glad you're allright. But tell us how your hand eneded up in front of the muzzle. Inquiring minds need to know.

Jamie C.
October 9, 2007, 12:57 PM
But tell us how your hand eneded up in front of the muzzle.

Wouldn't think it would take a rocket scientist to work that one out:

Hand supporting gun pushes down toward weak hand, which is pushing up, palm flat, loading mag.

Gun fires unexpectedly, recoils up and back.
Pressure is still on both hands, since the time period for the recoil reaction is so short. The tension on the muscles of each arm bring the gun back down while moving the weak hand up slightly.

Gun ends up slightly behind weak hand with muzzle lined up with palm. Second round then fires. ( Guess we know which round out of 5 got Bam's paw now, don't we? )

By round no. 3 the brain is starting to catch up and the hands are no longer being brought together. Impact from the bullet striking has probably moved the weak hand off line from the muzzle's path any way.



Make sense?


J.C.

the naked prophet
October 9, 2007, 01:12 PM
So... it's probably too late to call dibs on that Bulgarian Mak you were planning to sell?

benEzra
October 9, 2007, 01:30 PM
Something's wrong when I pop in "Black Hawk Down," "Band of Brothers," and "Equilibrium" and I don't get excited. I watch each gunshot and think how much damage each bullet would do. PTSD, man.
That's not PTSD, that's normal. Those are hard movies to watch for me, and I've never been shot.

Fascinating, yes. Inspiring, yes. Scary, yes. Exciting in a positive sense, no.

RiverwinoIA
October 9, 2007, 02:19 PM
This happened to me with a Russian .380 makarov.

It happened when i was shooting though. Second trigger pull fired 3 shots, the last one went off out of battery and singed my hand a bit, then stove piped, which stopped the rest from going off (im assuming).

nobody hurt, all rounds went into the berm. it was surprisingly controllable on full auto.

Knucklehead2
October 9, 2007, 02:43 PM
Brakleen evaporates to quickly; it will only soften the Cosmoline then rapidly dry. Mineral Spirits works the best. Having removed Cosmoline from hundreds of machine tools, you will have to take the word of a Knucklehead. Kerosene will work also but smells bad.

Kentak
October 9, 2007, 03:00 PM
Glad you are healing well.

Forgive me if this is a repeat question--I didn't read all 7 pages of posts.

Did the cops confiscate that "full auto" pistol? Where is it now and what was the cause of the full auto fire?

K

BamBam-31
October 9, 2007, 04:01 PM
You sir are blessed! The hand is full nice little veins and arteries and bones and tendons. The bullet missed them all!!!


Every now and then, I think on what could have happened, and I get this sick feeling like when you're standing on a ledge, looking down. Then I wiggle my thumb around and think exactly what you wrote. :)


Did the cops confiscate that "full auto" pistol? Where is it now and what was the cause of the full auto fire?

They took it and stored it. No real investigating, as it was filed as an injured person report. I had to basically re-DROS it, but I eventually got it back. Again, it was a stuck firing pin that caused the full auto.

(You know, that little Mak's been sitting in the safe too long. I think I'll bring it out this weekend. Ken, Rich, consider yourselves warned! :evil:)

Harley Quinn
October 9, 2007, 05:28 PM
Diesel fuel is the best :uhoh:
It is the correct solvent for cos-mo-line:D

Knucklehead2
October 9, 2007, 05:42 PM
Diesel fuel is the best.

Harley, to smelly, but you are correct.

rcmodel
October 9, 2007, 05:55 PM
Most hammer type semi-auto pistols cannot go full auto due to a jammed or broken firing pin protruding out of the breach face.
It is a fail-safe problem.

The round coming out of the magazine has to be able to slide up the breach-face in order to get out of the magazines control, under the extractor, and into the chamber.

If the firing pin is stuck forward and sticking out, it just stops the gun from feeding right there.

I would highly suspect a hammer / sear failure of some kind with this MAK accident.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Harley Quinn
October 9, 2007, 06:12 PM
Knucklehead2,
True it is smelly, I wear a good set of gloves to keep it off me.
Fan behind you, similar when working with the pot and cooking lead,:uhoh: it helps:D

DMK
October 9, 2007, 06:37 PM
I've since learned that Maks have a tendency to slam shut on loaded mags, so you're supposed to load them with slides forward, then rack.That's good advice. I'll have to remember that.

AZ Jeff
October 9, 2007, 07:19 PM
Most hammer type semi-auto pistols cannot go full auto due to a jammed or broken firing pin protruding out of the breach face.
It is a fail-safe problem.

The round coming out of the magazine has to be able to slide up the breach-face in order to get out of the magazines control, under the extractor, and into the chamber.

If the firing pin is stuck forward and sticking out, it just stops the gun from feeding right there.

I would highly suspect a hammer / sear failure of some kind with this MAK accident.

The Makarov is one of only a few autoloading pistols that does NOT have the cartridge head slide up the breech face as part of the loading cycle.

On a Makarov, the bottom edge of the breechface strips the round, like all other magazine fed autoloaders. However, once the cartridge is free of the magazine feed lips, it must seat itself in the counterbored recess of the breech face, and the extractor must snap over the cartridge rim.

Because of this counterbored breech face, a protruding firing pin a on Mak will NOT stop the gun from chambering a round, and a slamfire with a stuck firing pin is a VERY likely occurrence.

I encourage you to inspect a Makarov to see what I mean. They are different than most autoloading pistols in this respect.

frankcostanza
October 9, 2007, 07:31 PM
wow, glad to hear that your ok! sounds like it could have been a lot worse

HammerBite
October 9, 2007, 07:50 PM
Thanks for the interesting technical stuff! I always knew that Maks could slam fire full auto and wasn't sure why.

Geno
October 9, 2007, 08:06 PM
All's well that ends well. A couple of thoughts...you need to have your nick here changed from BamBam-31 to Bam!Ouch!Bam!Bam!Bam!Bam! :neener:

Let's revisit that Tiffany comment. Hmmm. Did you buy Mrs. Bam!Ouch!Bam!Bam!Bam!Bam! something from Tiffany's?!

The first time I took my WASR-10 double stack to the range it went full-auto on me. Fortunately I had a good grip on it. Wow...did that range clear out fast!

Anyhow, glad it all worked out well.

Doc2005

BamBam-31
October 9, 2007, 08:13 PM
Dude, you are merciless!

No, no Tiffany's, but there have been a few LV bags here and there for this and that....

Now, if you'll excuse me, I gotta go find a tactical rock to hide under....:p

Fletchette
October 9, 2007, 09:02 PM
Sorry to hear about your accident.

On the other hand (damn, that is a bad saying for this thread!) you will most likely fully recover; you have all of your fingers and and your range of motion is good.

Give it awhile before you do anything drastic like selling your guns. They are just tools, afterall. If you had cut your finger badly with a power saw would you sell all of your tools? It helps to keep a perspective.

Gaiudo
October 9, 2007, 09:10 PM
Bam,

Was the entrance wound the round scar near the butt/palm of your hand? Or did it just graze the webbing?

BamBam-31
October 9, 2007, 09:32 PM
Yup, that little oval-shaped scar on the heel of my palm is the entrance wound. You can see it better in the second pic on Pg. 5 (it's a bit more pinkish in that pic). There used to be a ring of black crud surrounding it, too, making it look like an evil eye. Bullet went in there, travelled through mostly soft tissue, and exited on the other side (where you still see a decent knot of scarring). The new "webbing" is actually all scar tissue as well. Basically, the bullet blasted off a big chunk of meat from the base of my thumb to the knuckle on my index finger. As gruesome as it sounds, I think it's healed rather nicely, really. :)

txgho1911
October 9, 2007, 09:39 PM
Now we just need the pics from that range day. Teaching kids about guns include all the bad ugly nasty facts.

Thank you for the experience. May all of us avoid the same.

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