[FullEffect1911]

Now this seems weird to me and i was wondering if someone could help me out. I was shooting my new springfield fully loaded 1911 and while i was bench shooting it, i ran into a failure to feed, sort of. It was the last round in the stock magizine and instead of returing to battery, the slide locked in place. What happened is the last round came up and out of the magizine and for all intensive purposed the gun thought it was empty. However the round was just sitting pretty on top of the magazine, but not in a good way. The extractor never caught due to this. Now can limpwristing do this? There is a good chance i was limpwristing the gun since i was shooting it off a bench.

Second question for those who know, will accuracey of a semiauto greatly improve after the break in period?

Thanks in advance, i look forward to your responses.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Full Effect,

That's known as jumping the follower, and it's a magazine problem. Most often seen with 8-round magazines with soft springs and/or a smooth-topped follower...without the little bump that standard 7-round magazines have. It usually happens on the last round, but it can happen at other points in the mag.

It occurs because the pistol recoils backward, while the cartridge...because of its mass...obeys Newton's dictum about objects at rest tending to remain at rest. The gun and magazine move away from the round, and it gets loose from the magazine. A stronger mag spring will help, but the only sure cure is to use a proper magazine.

Luck!

[1911Tuner]

Almost forgot!

The accuracy may improve a little, due to everything seating and equalizing...
and it may not. At any rate, you won't see a lot of difference. The accuracy
of an autopistol depends mostly on how well the barrel locks up in the slide
at the front and rear, and shooting it won't make it fit any tighter. Any real gain in accuracy will be a result of practice and getting to know the gun.

Welcome aboard!

[FullEffect1911]

The magizines i was using were the standard springfield mags. Seven round, split metal follower, with the bump on the top. Could this problem also be attributed to limp wristing the gun? Also if i wanted to improved the accuracy of the gun would replacing the front barrel bushing with a tighter fitting one help?

Thanks for the very prompt and informative replay, i appreciated it. Also thanks for the warm welcome

[1911Tuner]

Okay...Your fix will probably be a simple matter of a good magazine spring. Order a Wolff 11-Pound spring from Brownells. You can find it online. There's a slight chance that your magazine's feed lips are a little too wide apart. They should measure about .540 inch across the top at the rear...on the flat sides.

Limp-wrist induced malfunctions are usually more of the stovepipe failure to eject/bolt-over-base failure to feed, or failure to return to battery. Short-cycle type malfunctions...


If anybody has the part number for those springs handy, I'd appreciate it if
you could post it. My Brownells catalog is MIA in all the confusion here... :rolleyes:

[Father Knows Best]

It's the mag. The mags included with just about every new production 1911 are pretty bad (notable exception being Wilson Combat, but their 1911's are really semi-customs, not production).

1911s are very sensitive to magazines. You have to use high quality mags, and keep them maintained. I use nothing but Chip McCormick ("CMC"), Wilson Combat and Tripp CobraMags in my 1911s. With those high quality mags, my 1911s are 100% reliable. With the stock mags the guns came with, they aren't even close to that.

Just put your SA mags back in the box and get some CMC or Wilson mags or Tripp CobraMags. They're worth every penny.

[wally]

The Mec-Gar/Novaks mags that came with my fullsize Armscor 45, 4' Charles Daly EMS and 3.5" Charles Daly CS have all functioned perfectly. How's it that "cheap" guns come with good mags and the brand names don't?

I prefer a flush fit instead of a bumber pad protruding bottom, so I use the CMC "shooting star" Tacticals from CDNN, $8-10 depending on finish. I use these in my Colts and Kimbers as well. Can't beat the price.

--wally.

[Technosavant]

I'm not sure why those mags were doing that; the SA mags are quite good (as far as "stock" 7 round mags go). I would also recommend some different ones (then, maybe try the SA ones again after a few hundred rounds have passed through the pistol). You can get CMC PowerMags nice and cheap off of ebay- I bought several from jws supplies.

[1911Tuner]

Well, at the risk of rufflin' some feathers...

Not a thing wrong with Springfield's supplied magazines...which are manufactured by Metalform...that a Wolff spring won't fix. If you don't qualify for the discount at Brownells, they're 7 dollars and change. If you do, they're about $3.75 plus shipping. I've looked at/tested a handful of the Cobra magazines, and wasn't mightly impressed. Good magazines, but they could use more spring. The ones in'em were a little soft. Don't know if
Wolff's standard spring will work in the Cobra, and never liked to depend on
trick-lookin' followers to "fix" what has worked for 90 years. The CObras failed to lock the slide in several of my pistols that are dead reliable for that function with standard magazines. 'Course...some folks would rather spend 40 bucks to fix a 3-dollar problem. To each his own, I reckon. :rolleyes:

CMC Powermags are about the best of the 8-rounders, but they still have that split Devel follower, which hasn't been consistent in performance in my experience. They work well in many pistols, but not in all. The problem is that when the follower itself starts to lose its spring, function starts to become erratic. Shooting Stars have soft springs, though the magazine tubes themselves are good. (Metalform again) A proper follower and a good spring works magic on a CMC Star.

Anybody who has stock Springfield magazines that they're unhappy with, and intend to stick'em in a box or toss'em out with the trash...send'em to me. I'll pay shipping. :cool:

[FullEffect1911]

Thanks for the advice guys! I really appreciate it. I'm gonna just get some springs to fix my mags, seems like the cheapest route. Now if i can only get better accuracy :rolleyes:

[Father Knows Best]

Not a thing wrong with Springfield's supplied magazines...which are manufactured by Metalform...that a Wolff spring won't fix.

So which is it? Is there something wrong with SA mags or not? If they need new springs to function reliably, then there is indeed something wrong with them. My point was that aftermarket mags, whether Wilson, CMC or Tripp, work without having to replace their springs. I guess it's up to you -- either rebuild your SA mags with decent springs, or just keep them shiny and new in the box and buy some CMC or Wilson mags. I bought a half dozen CMCs and 4 Wilsons used for a grand total of $90 on ebay. My SA and Para mags will stay in the box.

[1911Tuner]

Oh...Okay. Well...Never mind then. :)

[Old Fuff]

Ah just knew I should have stuck to a six-shooter.

About the barrel bushing. A tighter one may help - but only if the present bushing is the cause of bad accuracy. That, and the new bushing should be fitted by someone that knows what he is doing, or you may end up with additional problems. In general I have found that a not-so-great fit of the barrel at the back has more effect on accuracy then the bushing. If you paid for a "fully loaded" model (and I presume this has nothing to do with magazine capacity) it should be accurate from git-go. Exactly what kind of groups are you getting, and at what distance?

[1911Tuner]

Quote:

>Ah just knew I should have stuck to a six-shooter.<
*****************

:D I think ya might be onto somethin' there, Fuff...I'm about ready to switch
over to a good ol' Model 13 and leave these dang 1911s alone.

Anyway...back to the topic.

Most feed-related failures are due to the magazine. Most magazine-related feed failures are either due to the follower or the spring tension...or lack thereof. The McCormick Powermag has ample spring, but the follower is
iffy. No dimple to prevent the last round from getting ahead of the extractor
and not enough length to keep it from rocking forward. Works well in many guns...Not so well in others.

Metalform's stainless magazines usually come with the Wolff spring upgrade...
but not always. It depends on the company and who is in charge of ordering the magazines...and whether or not he understands that magazine timing is critical...AND...is willing/able to overrule the bean counters and spend the money on decent springs. Metalforms are also available as 8-rounders with the same miserable Devel follower that the McCormick's have. If you order direct from the company, pop for the nominal extra charge for the Wolff spring upgrade. You won't be sorry, especially if you go with the standard 7-round flat followers.

The Wilson 47Ds and Cobras that I've seen come in with springs that are a bit too soft to insure that the magazine timing is up to the task, especially on that last round or two....and the followers are so slick that even if they did have the spring, the last round could escape the control of the magazine and jump the follower. Has the potential to break the extractor if a push-feed occurs regularly. Extractors breaking or losing tension quickly? Look to the magazine. Unless the gun is seriously out of time, there's your bug.

Now for an oft-repeated line:

Wish I had a dime for every problematical pistol that I've "fixed" by handing
the owner a good magazine and having him try again. Most of'em are mystified when their problems go away.

Cheers!

[Delmar]

Brownells lists the following for Wolff springs.

7 round spring single spring 969-713-710 $7.49
7 round spring 3 Pack 969-713-930 $17.29

For you 8 round guys, its:

Single spring 969-714-610
3 pack 969-714-630

Prices are the same.

[1911Tuner]

Thanks Delmar!

Please note that the part numbers listed will not work with the Wilson-Rogers followers...Metalform round followers...MecGar...and probably not with the followers in Tripp Research Cobras. Those all take a proprietary spring. Either of the Wolff springs listed will work with any standard follower or the split-leaf, Devel 8-round follower interchangeably...but only one will allow 8 rounds to be loaded into the Devel-equipped magazine.

Luck!

[Delmar]

Any time, Tuner! Lord knows with all the wisdom I have picked up from people like you and Fuff and the cast of thousands here, the least I could do is look up a stock number.

I'd read off everyones name, but would sound like Stevie Wonder at the Grammys talking while the credits were rolling!

Any idea who makes Colt magazines for the last-say 10 years? They have been awfully good to me, in both 7 and 8 round capacities, with the 7 absolutely perfect for several thousand rounds and the 8 shot seeming to need a bit of breakin before they would function correctly.

I just loaded the 8 round mags up full and left them for a week, and it did the trick. Why, I do not know.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Delmar,

Metalform has made the bulk of Colt's magazines lately...as well as Kimber, Springfield, McCormick Shooting Star...probably at least some of Chip's Powermags... and I've even caught one in a Dan Wesson as an OEM. Look at the baseplate. If you see a "C" on it...Colt made the magazine. If you see an "M"...it's a Metalform. I don't think that Colt has made their own magazines for about 15 years or so. I've also seen a few OEM Colt mags with a "G" on the baseplate, but I don't know who claims that one. I've also seen the "G" on a few fake Colt magazines.

The generic Metalform will have the trademark twin bumper pad holes in the baseplate.

[FullEffect1911]

I wasn't getting any sort of decent group at 25 yards (usually around 5 inches at best with fliers) using winchester white box. Thats why i am hoping the break in period will make things better. I'm going out again today to do some shooting and i'll tell you what happens.

On another topic the parkerized finish is pretty crappy, looks good but scratches really easily. It would be nice if springfield took it back and put on an armory kote :rolleyes:

Also the rear novak site is loose, nothing a little lock tite on the set screw can fix but i am reluctant to do that, maybe a tad bit of teflon tape.

I'm going to contact springfield if some of my minor problems don't clear up, see what they say, after all i did trade in my s&w 1911 for this one, maybe thats worth something to SF.

[Old Fuff]

FullEffect1911

The old Fuff is a little bit foggy about exactly what comprises a "Fully Loaded" Springfield because they seem to have a whole lot of models that are so defined. So far as I can tell they have an average MSRP hovering around one thousand bucks. I'm sure they can be bought for less as street prices seldom are the same as the manufacturer wished they were.

Now it will be a cold day in a warm place before the Fuff, who started buying .45's over a half-century ago, will plunk down that kind of money for a pistol that doesn't feed reliably out of the box, and can't hit the side of a barn when the shooter is inside and the door is closed.

You have a right to expect reliable feeding of hardball when the gun comes out of the box. (Break-in period my Aunt Fanney). You have a right to expect high-quality magazines that work. You have a right to expect 3" groups or under (mostly under) at 25 yards when the pistol is fired from a rest. If my poor ol' war surplus 1911A1 will do that (and it will) then your geegaw-loaded thousand buck toy should do so too. I would send Springfield Armory a message that was so hot they'd have to handle it with tongs. Then I would send them this "loaded" junker and tell them to make it right. There is no reason YOU should have to replace the barrel bushing or anything else.

I cannot understand why today's buyers are willing to put up with this. It is truly an outrage.

Edited to add: It is very possible that there is a relationship between the loose rear sight (on a one thousand buck gun yet) and your large groups. Tighten the sight and then re-test for accuracy. As for the parkerized finish. It is probable they didn't leave the parts in the bath long enough, or the chemicals were almost expired. Demand that they do it over.

[FullEffect1911]

Yeah, the price for the gun was 650 at the gun shop and i've heard of great things about springfields so i traded in a S&W 1911 for one and well i have some problems of my own.

After shooting another hundred rounds through the gun i ran into no failure to feed or extract, no problems at all there.

The accuracy was still kinda piss poor but i was finally getting groups, at 20 yards i could shoot groups of about 5 inches from a bench. Now normally i would blame my own poor shooing, but i can easily get sub 2 inch groups out of my S&W 686 so i guess take that for what it's worth.

As far as springfield getting a rather vicious reply, i'll just wait until the warrenty card gets there and see if a few more rounds downrange helps things out. The sight got tighted up, but it still worries me that a set screw is really the only thing holding it in (i would much prefer the proper press fit). And the finish is still crap (heres to hoping for a black teflon armory coat for christmas). What? it isn't chrismas? dang, i was being good this year.

i'll write to SA a bit later, and i'll keep ya'll posted if you would like.

[Old Fuff]

Ya, it would be nice if the rear sight was a correct press fit in the dovetail. and as you put it, "the finish wasn't crap." Do let us know how this turns out.

[walking arsenal]

curious, if the 8 rounders with the smooth followers dont work then why do they keep making the things?

[1911Tuner]

Good question WA...and closely related to the age-old inquiry whenever one sees a gadget or something claiming to be "New" or "Improved."

To wit:

"What's it for?"

The answer...too often is..."To sell!"

The fact is, that some of'em DO work well in some guns...not so well in some...and not at all in others. The same can be said for the standard design, but those seem to work better for the larger percentage of guns across the board. It's a simple matter of the variations in literally millions of 1911 pistols out there. Everything is a compromise, but whenever something about a successful design is altered,further compromise is added. Sometimes
the change is for the better...sometimes not. Sometimes a change requires
fine-tuning...aka Research and Development. Not a thing wrong with that approach...but when one's life may be at stake, it's probably wise to stick with what works most often, and leave the R&D test market to the game-players and wait. Bench-rest shooters brought rifle accuracy tricks to the table. Bullseye pistol competition led to the development of building techniques that gave us the wicked accurate and reliable high-end pistols that dominate the game today. This is the segment that the R&D is aimed at,
and they'll get it worked out eventually. Until then...for those who carry the gun for real...choose your equipment wisely.

The Devel split/folded follower does do pretty well IF the angle is correct and
as long as the spring maintains good tension. The problem is that the follower itself is a spring...subject to set and elastic limits. When it changes with use, it changes in its function too...and it may not give warning that it's
gonna give up the ghost. They can literally be functioning perfectly one minute, and go fugasi on the next magful. The gun can continue to function...seemingly perfectly...even though the last round is being climbed by the extractor...and the extractor lets go suddenly, leading us to believe that the extractor was bad, or that it's a "design flaw" from the git-go. It's not. I'm pretty well convinced that the rash of broken extractors is in large part due to improper magazines.

That dimple is important. Stability of the follower...brought on by the length of the rear leg and the number of magazine coils bearing against it...is important. The spring rate is important. Changing either is a crapshoot. These things will make perfect sense to some...a little sense to some...and none at all to others. Speaking strictly from my own experience, and that of several other knowledgeable people.

[Old Fuff]

Yup, the combat competitors are caught in a bind. On one hand they want to shoot a Major cartridge for the scoring advantage, and on the other they want to have lots and lots of those cartridges in their magazines because of the way so many courses are set up - lots of double-tapping and that sort of fun.

In this kind of environment any company that can pile more rounds into a given space and convince the players that it will work (at least sometimes) will carry the money they make to the bank in a wheelbarrow.

Folks who take the time to learn about how the pistol came to be - how it was developed - know that every feature in it is there for a reason, and if you change something it will probably effect various other things in the way the pistol functions. Anyone who fools with the basic internals by adding this or that gadget, or modifying this or that part is asking for trouble, and will probably find it sooner or later.

Also anyone who's experience goes back to the late 1940's (as mine does) knows that the current problems we see regarding reliability weren't very common in guns made before the current combat-game craze came along during the late 1970's - early 1980's. I often point out that the many posts and threads you see on this and other forums concerning malfunctioning 1911-style pistols seldom involve guns made prior to the 1960's or 70's. Tuner can testify that most of his pistols are older ones without extensive modifications, and they run - shot after shot for thousands of rounds. This is even true of his range-beaters. My experience has been much the same.

So the modern guns don't cut it? Not necessarily. Go look up the threads where Tuner took a simple, straightforward (and "unloaded") Springfield Armory Mil-Spec and after making a few corrections and adjustments that should have been done at the factory, ran it through an extensive torture test and thousands of rounds without a bobble. Also notice that he avoided the game-gun gadgets and magazines like the plague.

John Browning knew exactly what he was doing. Some of the folks that came along later didn't have a clue, but they did know how to make money.

[wally]

I have 3 Colt, 2 Kimber, 1 Norinco, 1 Armscor, and 2 Charles Daly single stack 1911 style guns. All work great with the 8-rnd CMC "shooting star" mags and the Mec-Gar 8-round mags. These are cheap and effective so I've never used anything more expensive. Over the years I've had one shooting star follower crack and one "mil surplus" 7-round bottom crack. Also replaced a couple of springs to fix mags that developed failure to feed (nose not clearing mag body) ot stopped locking the slide back. I've enough mixed 7 and 8 round "range" mags to pre load 200 rounds and enough 6 and 7 round "officers" mags to pre load 50.

1911 "widebody" mags I'd definitely put in the because they can sell them category. None have worked 100% out the box for long -- I've three Para, 2 BP Kimbers and a Springfield P12 "clone" and at least three full cap mags for each. Everyone except the Para P10 (1 Para and two ProMag) needed some combination of spring replacement, feed lip tweaking, and interior seam weld smoothing to function reliably when clean -- get a little dirt or grit inside and they'll have feed problems until cleaned, where as a good single stack mag takes some serious fouling to develop feed problems that go away after a cleaining.

I certainly haven't had a rash of extractor breakage -- and I've been shooting mostly Woll 230gr FMJ for the past 10000+ rounds Colt extractor broke after 7-8000 rounds circa 1995 (hadn't been counting carefully) and about 5200 on my Charles Daly EMS (I've been counting to see where parts break on this cheap gun).

--wally.

[1911Tuner]

Wally, you may be one of the lucky ones...and you may not. Keep an eye on your brass. It'll tell the tale. If you've noticed dings near the edges of the rims on some that actually kicks up a sharp burr on the edge...your gun is push-feeding on the last round, and the extractor hook is climbing over the rim. Reloaders will notice this quickly as it makes their brass hard to push into the shellholder. Depending on a few things, a good extractor will tolerate this...sometimes for a lot of rounds...but the gun wasn't designed to feed that way, and it'll cause a premature failure.

5,000 rounds on an extractor is very good...but a correctly tensioned extractor that is used in a gun that is functioning properly will outlast the gun many times over. I have a few that are approaching 90 years old, and have
worn out several pistols...without even needing retensioning once initially adjusted. I rebuilt one old Rand so many times that it couldn't be rebuilt any more...all on the same extractor. By best estimates, there something over a quarter-million rounds that went through it during that period...and the extractor is still doing service in yet another high-count beater. Not bein'
snide...but 5 or 10K isn't even a good start.

[wally]

Seeing how I've got some brass that been thu the dies probably 30 times I don't think this is happening with any regularity. I've got some with warped rims for sure as the ejection in my Thompson SMG is pretty violent :)

I use only the standard weight recoil springs -- when I do get a round that fails to slip under the extractor hook I get a failure to return to battery. These are very very rare with any ammo. Ocassionally I'll get a hang with my lead SWC reloads because the rim is behind the hook and a ding on the *inside" face of the rim (pointing towards the extraction groove) where the brass has flowed during extraction/ejection hangs on the extractor hook. I only replace the recoil springs when I get failures to return to battery (with the rim under the hook) that doesn't go away after the gun is cleaned -- I've only ever replaced -- two my oldest Colt and the outer spring on my Kimber Ultra Carry.

Just so happens I just got back from the range with 100 round of empty Wolf steel cases I'm saving to relaod for my friends annual 4th of July shoot-a-thon at his ranch where I loose nearly 100% of the brass so this year I won't worry :). I've already tested about 500 rounds of these using 5.9 gr Unique and my 200gr lead SWC bullets and they function well for plinking ammo, Accuracy is not as good as with my usual reloads -- I suspect the bullet pull is not as consistent and this is a much lighter load than the 6.6 gr I usually use with brass cases. Anyway, the rims on these fresh enpties look pristine on both surfaces after being fired thru my "newest" (this made ~575 rounds total thru it) Charles Daly CS 3.5" 1911 using a brand new CMC 7-rnd "shooting star" officer's mag -- I just got back from going out the garage to take a very close look at them. Gun has been perfect, this new mag wasn't giving me a three failure to feeds where the nose failed to clear the mag front. I just cleaned it and will see if the problem goes away, Did seem to get better with more shooting. This would be the first bad mag I've got from CDNN if a good cleaning (and perhaps a bit of "wear-in") didn't do the trick.

--wally.

[1911Tuner]

Wally say:
>> when I do get a round that fails to slip under the extractor hook I get a failure to return to battery. These are very very rare with any ammo.<<
********************

Bingo! Now we're gettin' somewhere.

What do you suppose causes those "occasional" rounds to get ahead of the extractor? How many get ahead of it and DON'T cause a failure to go to battery...climbing the rim instead, and giving the impression that all is well?
Wolff will do that by reason of its smaller rim diameter...but that isn't indication that it's good for the gun.

The pistol is designed around the Controlled-Feed principle. The round is supposed to strip and the rim slip under the extractor...every time. And if all is right within the gun, it will do it...every time...from the first round to the last. The admonition to never lock the slide, chamber a round and drop the slide onto the chambered round is because it's rough on the extractor. Whether the action is done manually or during normal function doesn't change that. It's still rough on the extractor.

More than that...When the slide rams hard against the chambered round, the barrel is slammed forward, and the locking lugs are also likely taking a beating
because they're supposed to mesh upward into their slots in the slide...not
get banged into the rear faces of the slide lugs at the corners.

Two things will cause the round to get ahead of the extractor. Insufficient spring tension, which can cause it at any point in the magazine...and a smooth-topped follower. That dimple is there for a very good reason. It
prevents the last round...which is under minimum spring tension...from riding ahead of its feeding position and getting knocked into the chamber by the oncoming slide before the extractor can grab it. The dimple insures that the gun will effect a controlled feed on the last round.

Old John Moses really DID know what he was doin'. When one little-bitty thing is changed or removed...it changes the way the gun functions.

Cheers! :cool:

[wally]

If it was happening with any significant frequency I'd see evidence of it as you said with dings on the rear/outer surface of the rims and polish or brass marks on the front of the extractor from the push feeds. As I said most of my failure to go into battery, which are very rare considering I shoot practically nothing but the cheapest ammo I can buy or reload, and don't clean my guns until I start having failures, have been when the gun is dirty and are the kind where the case hangs under the extractor failing to move up breech face. Usually this is with my lead bullet reloads -- I have some truly wretched old brass in the mix. But I'm not denying what you say can happen as I have seen it a few times over the years.

I'm not trying to say you are wrong, I'm just saying my experience contradicts it being as bad as you seem to be suggesting. If I was carrying extra mags and expected to be in harms way I'd probably carry seven rounders with the dimple, but since I don't carry an extra mag (I'd carry a bigger gun instead!) I choose the one with an extra round. My range experience with these mags in a variety of 1911 guns suggests in the universe of things to be worrying about this is pretty low on the list.

I mean 5000+ rounds from a cast/MIM extractor means nothing major is going wrong here.

Watch your brass, check the front face of the extractor to look for evidence of push feeding if you use the mags without the dimple -- certainly is good advice. Clearly what not to do is slap in an "extra power" recoil spring as soon as you start having feeding problems.

Looking at the extractor on my blue 3.5" Charles Daly CS I see no wear whatsoever on the bluing of the front face of the extractor, only a little white shows at the bottom cornor of the hook where the rim slips under the extractor (you won't see it without magnification. ) Its had ~575 rounds thru it so far with zero failures using factory ammo beyond the three nose not cleaing the mag body feed problmes I had today with the brand new CMC blue 7-rnd officers mag mentioned in my earlier post. I did have a failure to go into battery (with the rim under the hook) in the first 7+1 loading of my lead SWC reloads (I haven's shot but a couple of mags of these in this gun so far). Of the other 8 officers mags I've used in it, only one has the dimple on the follower. These 8 have been used in "rotation" loading a box of 50 as 6 6-rounders and 2 7-rounders to beat up on our steel plate rack :) I would expect the stouter recoil of a 3.5" 1911 to exacerabate the problem of the round on top moving forward to cause a push feed.

--wally.

[1911Tuner]

Welp...If you're comfortable with it...Go for it, I say! :cool: I just hope it doesn't happen if your life depends on the gun. That's a slow FTRTB to clear.

Another couple of questions though...outta curiosity.

Ever noticed any live ammo on the ground amongst your brass...or the gun ejecting a live round and feeding the next one under it?

Ever had the slide lock and the last round lying loose on top of the mag?

Those are other symptoms of a weak spring. About half the guys who have problems with those types of magazines have seen it happen on occasion.

[XMP]

Tuner said:
"The pistol is designed around the Controlled-Feed principle. The round is supposed to strip and the rim slip under the extractor...every time. And if all is right within the gun, it will do it...every time...from the first round to the last. The admonition to never lock the slide, chamber a round and drop the slide onto the chambered round is because it's rough on the extractor. Whether the action is done manually or during normal function doesn't change that. It's still rough on the extractor.

More than that...When the slide rams hard against the chambered round, the barrel is slammed forward, and the locking lugs are also likely taking a beating
because they're supposed to mesh upward into their slots in the slide...not
get banged into the rear faces of the slide lugs at the corners."

Tuner, I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding what you are referring to. You are speaking of hand-feeding manually a round into the barrel and leting the slide release on it so the extractor has to snap over the case rim, right? Or do you mean that you shouldn't chamber the first round of a magazine from slidelock simply by releasing the slide to slam home? Thanks for the clarification.

[wally]

Never seen any of those. I have seen lots of "ride over feed" with hicap 1911s where the spring doesn't get the round up into position in time and the slide catches the extraction groove instead of the base leading to in extreme cases the bullet sticking out the top of the slide. Basis for my eariler comments about widebody mags usually needing work. Often its stronger springs, but Para made lots "pre-ban" junkers that were so rough inside no spring was strong enough to prevent binding near the double to single stack transition.

Other than the fact I like shooting a lot more than changing mags, I'd have given up on the widebodies long ago. Strictly range guns IMHO.

--wally.

[Vic303]

Hey Tuner, could you post a set of pics of the different types of followers? I know the Wilson ones, but am not sure exactly what you mean by Devel, or dimpled.
Thanks,
Vic

[1911Tuner]

XMP...The pistol is always supposed to be fed from the magazine at full speed. I was referring to locking the slide back...manually chambering a round with thumb and finger...then releasing the slide, thus forcing the extractor to climb over the rim.

Wally...Rideover Feed, aka Bolt-Over-Base Malfunction...is a magazine timing issue that can be caused by insufficient mag spring tension or excessive slide speed as it returns to battery...which is usually caused by excessive recoil spring rating...or plain old short-cycling. Interesting that you've never had that happen. You may notice it as you use the magazines and the springs start to fatigue though.

Vic...Don't have a digital camera here...Sorry. The Devel-type follower is easy to spot. McCormick SHooting Stars and Powermags both have the Devel. Basically, it's a folded strip of sheet metal, bent to form the rear leg and the top. The left side of the top has an angle cut into it that allows the bottom left side to raise the slidestop and lock the slide. The follower has
some degre of spring tempering...and it seems to vary from one to another.

The "Dimpled" followers are just the old-style followers. Easy to spot by the
little bump in the center. You can see it on old surplus GI magazines and the
Meetalform magazines that come with the GI Springfields...unless they've changed recently. Be aware that there were some 8-round magazines with the dimple, but with a shortened rear leg, and a truly awful spring.

Please indulge me for an "In my experience?Your mileage may vary" statement.
I'm not boasting here...just relating something that demonstrates how critical
the magazine is. As Fuff noted, I use 7-round magazines with Wolff 11-pound springs exclusively. There are several THR members who have joined me for range sessions, and they can bear witness to these statements if they happen to read this thread.

I have five pistols, including 2 early 1991A1 (Produced in 1991)Colts that I use for range beaters two of which haven't had a single feed or extraction/ejection malfunction in about 12 years...and the others will occasionally fail to return to battery on the reloads when they're extremely dirty...but never with clean ammo...and they all get extremely dirty, since I clean'em every 2,000-2500 rounds. The few burps that did occur were mostly failure to lock the slide due to the followers' stop shelf changing angles...which a quick tweak resolved...and I average 50 to 60K a year...mostly with my funky reloads with home-cast lead bullets, and up until last year, with the original extractors(barstock) in the 91A1 Colts that I replaced with Brown Hardcores during the rebuild. The low average figures out to about 120,000 rounds per gun over that time period...with an aggregate total malfunction rate of less than 1/10th of one percent. None of the guns will malfunction when they're clean...ever. Only when they approach the 2,000 round mark do they start to complain...with cast-lead ammo. A switch to jacketed ammo for the remainder of the session results in no further problems.

Just remember the sound advice that proper magazine function is critical in the 1911 or any self-loading weapon. Fully 90% of all feed-related malfunctions can be traced directly back to the magazine. Remember too, that the magazine is not an accessory. It's a critical part of the whole system, and must be both in-spec and in sync with that system. Change one thing...and you change the way the gun functions.

Outta this one...

Luck!

[45auto]

Tuner,

Some time when your not busy, ;) , it would be interesting to read your maintenance, parts replacement, rebuilding, etc on your 120,000 Colts.

Mine has 30,000+ with the original extractor, one retension just for fun, and one failure to extract. I've had other issues, but they are a reliable gun.

[walking arsenal]

Tuner

Is that devel type split follower on the mc cormick 7 rounders too?

[1911Tuner]

WA asked:

Is that devel type split follower on the mc cormick 7 rounders too?
***********************

McCormick markets a 7-round magazine? :scrutiny: Don't know...but the Devel follower is easy to spot. Just have a look at a Shooting Star or Powermag. Both have it. First appeared in the early 80s on the original
Devel 8-round magazine. I still have one, though the follower went away shortly after I started having malfunctions...which was almost right away. I replaced it and the spring with the internals out of a WW2 GI contract magazine that had cracked in one rear corner, and used it like that for years without further problems. I replaced the spring about 5 years ago with a Wolff spring...and used it until the baseplate weld failed. It's in the junk parts box...somewhere.

Some time ago, Ken Grant went 'round and 'round with those things, messin' with the angles and installing Wolff 8-round +5% power springs...and he finally replaced'em with Metalform's standard 7-round followers. Voila'!
No more problems. He's been a happy camper ever since. PM him for details.
I can't remember'em all.

[Vic303]

Ok, so if Tuner doesn'thave a digicam, I guess I'll have to post a sampling of my own mags... ;) For your enjoyment, I have pics of 5 mags all with diff followers in them...
from left to right:
Wilson 47OX
CMC Powermag 8
Mecgar (rounded top follower)
Mecgar (flat top follower (not split level))
DW Pointman (has small dimple on top with split nose to follower)

So, Tuner, you'd recommend the type in the DW, is that correct? If so, where can they be purchased?

[1911Tuner]

>DW Pointman (has small dimple on top with split nose to follower<
*******************

That's the one. You can order those directly from Metalform...which is probably where that one came from anyway. Arranging a group buy for 40 or more nets you a huge discount per unit. I strongly recommend their stainless magazines and the Wolff spring upgrade. The Wolff spring is only available with the stainless mags anyway, and both are money well-spent.

Check out their website. There are several options available, including removeable baseplate and bumper pads. All baseplates are pre-drilled for pads, should you decide to add those later. The round followers are well-made, but testing didn't bear fruit in all my pistols. They OEM springs are too soft and they won't accept the standard Wolff spring. There may be an extra-power spring available by now though. At any rate, the standard flat 7-round followers work best across the board, and are less expensive anyway.


Metalform also offers magazines in Officer's Model length in both stainless and blue...6 rounds or 7. I recommend the 6-round mags. Standard 7-round followers and Wolff springs will work in those. They also offer mags for the
discontinued Colt Woodsman, but they're a little pricey. You can also order followers as components, with the same price break for a 40-unit order.
Stainless is the way to go.

You can call toll-free. When the menu options start..punch 4 and ask for Ginny. She's knowledgeable, helpful, and a delight to talk to.

No...I don't own stock in the company and I don't get free stuff for promoting their magazines...but I should! :D

[wally]

Wally...Rideover Feed, aka Bolt-Over-Base Malfunction...is a magazine timing issue that can be caused by insufficient mag spring tension or excessive slide speed as it returns to battery...which is usually caused by excessive recoil spring rating...or plain old short-cycling. Interesting that you've never had that happen. You may notice it as you use the magazines and the springs start to fatigue though.

I said I've never seen it with single stack 7 or 8 round mags. Its been almost universal in my widebody guns with Para & Kimber & Springfield/ProMag magazines eventually. You are right stronger springs is usually the fix but sometimes its the rounds binding because the inside of the mag is rough and poorly finished. Factory Para mag springs seem to be really crappy, now that the ban is history I hope they OEM better springs.

Putting a Para P14 mag into my P10 will usually do it -- larger mag spring is not fast enough for the short slide. I will verify you are 100% right on this Rideover Feed stuff in my experience.


I'ts just I'm seeing no evidence of any issues with my "shooting star (aka devel)" or Mec-Gar mags that lack the dimple I've shot thousands of rounds with 30+ of the mags in 9 different single stack guns. If it was such a commom problem I should have seen solid evidence of it by now. I've been using mostly the Devel follower mags since I first learned of them circa 1990. My oldest one split the follower at the bottom bend after it stopped locking the slide back and I tried to bend the bottom shelf up a bit in an effort to fix it (this was about four years ago). I've had a dimpled follewer mag crack at the base -- I noticed it before it gave way completely and dumped the rounds on the ground (this was about ten years ago). Things break, if your life hangs in the balance it's a major bummer.

--wally.

[Seraph]

I've had a dimpled follewer mag crack at the base...
That problem is neatly solved with Metalform's excellent, locking, removable base plate. No welds to break here, and the mags are more easily cleaned.

[1911Tuner]

Any magazine with a spot-welded baseplate is subject to failure given enough use. That's just an accepted part of the program...and it's why we regularly inspect our equipment for signs of impending failure. Other high-stress places are also prone to stress cracking...such as the corners of the feed lips at the rear of the tube or anywhere there's a sharp corner. Removable box magazines are ultimately expendable. That's why Uncle Sugar orders so many for the weapons systems that use'em.

In the dear dead days of the early 1911 production, magazine bases were
pinned in place to alleviate this problem, and it worked very well, though it was more expensive and time-consuming...which is why the military contractors went to spot-welding. Magazines were produced by the tens of millions...and if they lost one here and there to fatiguing, there was always plenty to replace'em. Why spend 3 times as much for a magazine that would
stand a good chance of being jettisoned and lost during the heat of combat?

I have over a hundred welded-base Colt and Metalform magazines. Over the years of hard use, I've lost one...ONE...to a baseplate weld failure...and I'm not exactly gentle with my range mags. I've lost maybe a half-dozen
USGI magazines to weld failures in 40-odd years...but those have ranged anywhere from 20-75 years of age. An acceptable casualty rate, I'd say...given what I've put'em through.

[ken grant]

I did have a lot of mags that had the Devel type followers(Colt,CMC S.S. & CMC blue) and over time have had many FTF the last rd. Some worked well when new,but some never worked at all.
All of these FTF's were in Commander sized 1911's(2-Colt's,1-Norinco & 1-Griffon).Didn't seem to have problems with my fullsized 1911s.But at the same time,I hardly ever shoot the fullsized ones.
I put in Wolf springs(no help),I played with follower angles and even looked up the patent on Devel's design and set angles to his specs(no help). He designed the followers to be made of Spring Steel. None of the ones you get now are made of this and will change their angles as you use them(more so if you keep them fully loaded with 8 rds.)
I followed Tuner's advice and replaced the followers with MetalForm 7 rd.flat with the dimple and 11# Wolf springs.ALL MY PROBLEMS WENT AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!
Have not had a single FTF and this is with mostly cast reloads :p

[1911Tuner]

I'll have to give ya one thing, Ken mah fren...You're stubborn! :D

Ken fought with that batch of magazines for about a month before he gave up and came to understand the Gospel of Saint John Browning, Chapter 7, Verses 2-4:


"Thou shalt not remove my dimple. I put it there for a reason."

"Thou shalt not reduce the number of coils on my spring or the length of my follower in order stuff eight rounds in a space that I designed for seven."

"Thou shalt not allow any manner of plastic to enter into my pistol or into my magazine, lest thou come to grief when the descendants of Ishmael visit evil upon thy house."

[Boss Spearman]

My Para LTC does this with the new 8 round Wilson mags I just bought. My Springfield GI Champion handles all 8 rounds just fine.
I just load 7 into the mag when I shoot the Para and it works fine.

[BluesBear]

[flamesuit=ON]You do NOT need a $50 magazine in order to have a reliable 1911 pattern pistol.
If you do, then something's wrong with your pistol.


Personally I have several dozen magazines in over a dozen different configurations (followers/feedlips/capacity) that all perform flawlessly.
But as I have preached for years, all of my guns are as close to original spec regarding springs as possible.

I have had great success with the Mec-Gar eight round magazines that have that little finger rest that make them look like a big Walther PPK magazine. Thet finger rest hides the fact that the body is just a little bit longer than standard. That little extra length goes a long way in allowing the magazine to function much better than a flush fit mag.

The Novak/Armscor magazines are made by ACT-MAG and are very similar in design. I have also had ZERO problems in any gun I have tried them in.


A gun that will only shoot a certain brand of ammo from a certain brand of magazine may be fine for target ventilation but it ain't worth a damn for asset salvation.