Super Shotguns in Iraq


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huntsman
May 15, 2005, 02:10 PM
WEAPONS OF THE WORLD: Super Shotguns in Iraq

http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=HTWEAP.HTM

May 13, 2005: American troops are testing a 12 gauge automatic shotgun in Iraq. The Auto Assault 12 (AA12) has a rate of fire of 300 rounds per minute and uses either an 8-round box magazine or a 20 round drum magazine. Recoil on the system has been reduced to that of a light rifle, due to a sophisticated recoil system. The low rate of fire makes it possible to easily fire bursts of one, two, or three shots and is capable of using and mixing all types of 12 gauge ammunition, from shot to solid slugs, as well as non-lethal rounds. Allegedly, Iraqi insurgents have little respect for the M4 rifle and the 5.56mm round, but they fear shotguns.

If that's not enough of a firepower increase at the squad level, the Marine Corps is testing a family of 12 gauge shells designed to deliver blast, fragmentation, and high-explosive armored piercing projectiles out to 200 meters. The high-explosive armor piercing projectile uses a shaped charge that has been demonstrated to put a 1 inch hole in quarter-inch steel plate. A total of 100 projectiles have been bought for testing as well as some quantity for "experimental use" in Iraq.

At first glance, packing an armor-piercing charge into a 12 gauge round sounds like overkill, but Iraqi terrorists are becoming increasingly sophisticated in fortifying themselves, vehicles, and fixed positions. Foreign fighters are using Russian-style body armor in their raids. Suicide bombers driving vehicles often wear body armor for protection until they get "on target" and some vehicles have been reportedly hardened with bullet-resistant glass and armor plate. In one incident, terrorists in a basement/crawlspace used a Russian machine gun equipped with armor-piercing rounds to shoot through a concrete floor to attack Marines. The American troops had no effective way of firing back and ultimately had to call for an air strike with a 500 pound smart bomb to eliminate the resistance.

A combination of 12 gauge armor-piercing rounds with a shotgun would provide a weapon capable of effectively stopping an up-armored vehicle or larger truck without the extra weight and expense of a dedicated anti-tank weapon. It would also provide an enhanced capability in urban warfare with a convenient and familiar method of employment. – Doug Mohney

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cslinger
May 15, 2005, 02:14 PM
Bet those guys are sore when they get back to base.

Haven't we tried full auto shotty's quite a few times and everytime we find out that they just are not practical for 99% of uses.

Chris

Correia
May 15, 2005, 02:19 PM
There's a write up in SOF this month about the AA-12. It is a heavily modded version of the old Atchinson. (seen one, never got to shoot one).

In the pics in the magazine you can see that the recoil spring runs the length of the gun. It is pretty interesting. Personally I would absolutely love to get my hands on one for some serious testing.

I spoke with a fellow who was home on leave the other day. He has carried a Mossberg 590 the entire time he has been in Iraq. And since almost all of the fighting his unit has been involved in has been in town, he has absolutely loved it. So once again, the good old shotgun is seeing some use.

Jim Watson
May 15, 2005, 02:24 PM
Auto Assault 12, huh?
The name sounded familiar so I dug through the old wetware memory bank and then Googled. I wonder it this new wunderweapon is a development of the 1970s Atchisson Assault Twelve, later resurrected by Daewoo as the USAS-12 and soon banned for sales to American Commoners even in semiauto form. The bare specifications sure sound similar.

The DoD has been fooling with shotguns as long as I can remember, trying to get a true military buck and ball gun instead of duck guns with bayonets as used from WW I to date. I recall one H&K-Winchester program for a 12 gauge belted magnum operating at about twice normal shotshell pressure to fire fletchettes and tungsten buckshot. No reason not to add AP these days.

Preacherman
May 15, 2005, 04:56 PM
Back in the 1980's, South Africa developed a prototype belt-fed full-auto shotgun, designed for a pintle mount in the same way as you'd use a Browning .30-caliber machine gun. I saw the prototype in testing. It worked very well, and had a cyclic rate of 300-400 rounds per minute, but was range-limited in the usual way of buckshot rounds. At close range (for something like, say, perimeter defence) it was devastating, but once the range opened to more than about 50 yards, it was largely ineffective. It worked OK at longer ranges with slugs, but as a military type said, if you're going to shoot single projectiles, why not stick with a .30- or .50-caliber machine gun in the first place? Mainly for that reason, it wasn't developed beyond the prototype stage.

I always thought that for urban combat, one of these on a Jeep or Humvee would be great for street-clearing.

sm
May 15, 2005, 06:15 PM
I hereby volunteer to help assist with the testing. I favor slugs anyway...gotta try them suckers that do a "wee bit more" than the conventional. :evil:

Correia ? Need a testing partner?? :D

Yeah buddy - I wanna punch that doggie... ;)

AA12
May 15, 2005, 08:04 PM
Mr. Doug Mohney has a little fiction mixed in with his facts with regard to his statements from http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/h...rget=HTWEAP.HTM

Not sure where he came to his conclusions or how he reached them but if you want the real facts feel free to ask me.

Can't comment on the testing phase.

Felt recoil similar to .22lr bolt action relatively speaking.

"The high-explosive armor piercing projectile uses a shaped charge that has been demonstrated to put a 1 inch hole in quarter-inch steel plate." I believe this to be a blast round and not the AP round. Can't comment further on their status. It's a USMC warfighting lab program.

The article if SOF is fairly accurate

Jonathan
May 15, 2005, 10:13 PM
"The high-explosive armor piercing projectile uses a shaped charge that has been demonstrated to put a 1 inch hole in quarter-inch steel plate."

I'd be much more impressed with a quarter-inch hole in a one-inch plate.

Hopefully they're talking about armor plate. I've seen standard slugs make a nice inch hole in soft 1/4" steel.

chevrofreak
May 15, 2005, 10:22 PM
Didnt see this posted yet.

http://members.ij.net/aa12/AA_12_Internet_Short.wmv

LaEscopeta
May 15, 2005, 10:34 PM
Here is the Manufacture’s info page on the Auto Assault 12 (assuming it is in production and not just a prototype):
http://midamericarecreation.com/shotgun_pages/shotgun1_new.htm

Here are some videos, inculding several of it being fired:
http://midamericarecreation.com/aa12_videos.htm

Here's THR thread about the 12 gage high explosive rounds:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=135814

Original Marine Corps press release about the same:
http://www.mcwl.quantico.usmc.mil/f...s/FRAG%2012.pdf

only1asterisk
May 16, 2005, 06:18 AM
I gotta get me some of those!

David

Langenator
May 16, 2005, 09:58 AM
Now, maybe I'm just dense, but is there any reason (besides it being made in Russia) for not using a select-fire version of the Saiga-12K?

LaEscopeta
May 16, 2005, 02:02 PM
Now, maybe I'm just dense, but is there any reason (besides it being made in Russia) for not using a select-fire version of the Saiga-12K?
I certainly don’t have enough shooting experience to know, but I’ve read comments claiming the recoil from a Saiga-12K is so great you can’t aim it effectively. This video of Saigas has been around for a while:

http://colesgunworks.com/

The Kenny Rodgers look-a-like appears to be about 250 lbs, and the 12 gage version is pushing him backwards, even when he tries to fire just 3 or 4 shells. In the last scene, when he is trying to hit the stuffed lion instead of the broad side of a mini van, he fires from about 3 feet away.

The 20 gage appears to be more controllable, but I’ve read the military is having a hard enough time keeping the correct 12 gage ammo in the supply pipe line; two different size shells will just make that worse.

Supposedly, the AA12 slow firing rate and some sort of huge recoil spring make it controllable, even when going through the entire drum. But I notice all the videos show firing from the hip only, and not aiming.

As stated by cslinger above:

Haven't we tried full auto shotty's quite a few times and everytime we find out that they just are not practical for 99% of uses.

Ole-sailor
May 16, 2005, 03:19 PM
There is a 10 gage slug mfg in I believe Germany that delivers over 6,000 FtLb of energy at 100 meters. If that couldn't stop a truck :what:

Double Naught Spy
May 16, 2005, 11:41 PM
I don't know. There are a lot of good reasons for such a firearm and a lot of potentially special applications where it would be very effective. The trick would be having the versatility to modify the gun or loads rapidly so as to deal with specialty situations as they arise.

You gotta figture that a belt fed version would have done wonders in various wars by repelling foot charges such as those experienced by firebases in Vietnam, open field charges in Korea, and against Japanese charges in WWII. The spray of buckshot would work well against such charges and because the bore would likely be smooth, problems of fouling would not be a significant issue.

Too bad the capacity isn't more.

tc300mag1
May 16, 2005, 11:50 PM
i want one ..

Dotn forget the old jackhammer so we have played with fully auto a few times

Correia
May 19, 2005, 03:04 PM
LaEscopeta, fully and totally disagree about the controllability of the Saiga 12K. I don't have one in full auto, but I do use one in 3 gun and can run a Dozier drill in under 2 piece of cake. (I've done 1.8) With buckshot I can still easily do four aimed shots a second with out really pushing it hard.

Now this AA12 though. I would really like to get my hands on one to see what it could do. I've written two SWAT articles about magazine fed shotguns now, I wonder if I could talk Denny into letting me do this one too? :D

El Tejon
May 19, 2005, 04:06 PM
I shot this "new wonder" (an ancestor) over 15 years ago at Knob Creek! :rolleyes: *El Tejon sings and puts on soft shoes* "Everything old is new again, get out top hat . . . "

American militree has been screwing with this since George Washington's order to load with buck and ball or swanshot. Heck, who needs training, clear sights and crisp triggers, we just need cooler guns? :cool:

sm
May 19, 2005, 04:20 PM
I just want to play with one.

What do I know?

I'm the guy that likes Wood & Blue, patterns guns, checks his slug groups, believes in Gun fit and I was even stupid enough to put 25K rds in 12 ga alone in 12ga forever. Now what an idiot I am...now I have one shotgun with over 200K rds thru it. We won't mention the other guns and gauges...

I could have bought skill and targets just by buying a cool gun. :D

papaone
May 19, 2005, 04:42 PM
Let's go in for a group buy. :p

AA12
May 19, 2005, 05:56 PM
Correia wrote:

Now this AA12 though. I would really like to get my hands on one to see what it could do. I've written two SWAT articles about magazine fed shotguns now,....

PM me and maybe I can find a use for your idle hands

Correia
May 19, 2005, 07:12 PM
PM sent. :)

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