My first pair of converse all-stars, OR attempting mugging OR my cheek hurts realbad

[winstonsmith]

It was lunchtime at my high school, I walk up to purchase a burrito. My friend asks me if I want to get into a rumble, apparently some kids had jumped him for his cigarettes. I said no, went about my buisness.

Got the burrito, and was walking with a female friend when I see this group of 6 unfamiliar African American kids walking slow and casing people catches my attention. Too late!

"Gimme yo headphones."

I said no, made eye contact, and kept going. They kept engaging and following. I kept saying things like "i don't want any trouble, please leave me alone, yadda yadda." and they keep following. I (stupid) corner myself in a bus stop with these two homeless people I know. They engage the other 5 or so while the alpha male keeps talking to me, asking for my ipod and other things. I keep denying.

He makes a feint, probably to see if I was primed to hit him back, waited a second, and then hit me. It was a good one, although he didnt put any hip into it and had really bad aim. Caught right below the left cheekbone, didnt touch my lower jaw, so no brain jiggling and no eye damage. Just a little bruising and swelling.

I moved with it, letting the momentum dissapate, and then bounced back up. Must have looked worse because they were all running. Called the cops as soon as they were out of view.

Things I did poorly:
Didnt understand that the feint, and the putting on of a single black batters glove on the right hand was probably a bad sign.

Cornered myself.

Did not go into a higher state of alertness when I was told there were muggers about.

Did not make sure and have aspirin or something on me. I've got a headache like something fierce.

Things I did well:
Remembered descriptions well.

Understood the interaction. If I had given them my stuff, they would have had my stuff. If I had fought back, they could have easily killed me. There's no way to know for certain, or if I'm delusional, but I'm pretty sure that they were not primed for real violence. they didn't strike me as tough, just kids reaching out. I'll trade one punch in the face for an ipod.

Interacted with police well. Was concise and simple.

Stayed calm.

Made sure my female friend ran away.

Did not get my pride and survival sense mixed up.

Kept my dignity and my life.


This is the first day in a long time that I didnt have shaggy hair or combat boots on, or wearing dark clothing. At 5'8" and 130 lbs I think I might have to go back to a more intimidating look.

What do you guys think?

Carring weapons was not an option, I'm in high school.

[RyanM]

I learned long ago (okay, so it was only a couple years) that you have to hit back. You'll get detention a couple times, but you'll also eventually be left alone. Passive resistance does about as much good as painting a target on your chest.

[winstonsmith]

Umm, there were six of them, all bigger than me, probably armed. It was not fear of school discipline that made me not fight back, rather fear for my life. If it looked like i was going to be seriously hurt I would have fought back. I have trained in martial arts most of my life, and been in fistfights before.

I'm not just talking out of my butt here.

So there were six of them, effectively one of me, after the guy hit me, they were already leaving, you say I should escalate the situation?

[45Badger]

You did just fine.

[Biker]

I wasn't there and you were. However, if they wanted to kill you, you'd be dead. Consequently, by your inaction, they now see you as an easy target, IMO. Fact is Friend, sometimes it's better to take one ass-whuppin' now than to take a bunch in the future. I could be wrong....Good luck.
Biker

[Risasi]

..don't you ask your Dad how he would have handled it. Or better yet, if you still have a grandad alive ask what he thinks of the situation.

Then report to us what they say, word for word.


The reason I say this is because they know you better than we do. They may have some insight that we obviously don't have, being this is The Internet after all.

Now I'll give you a little advice. This is just generic principle. 1. Situational awareness. You obviously had it as you say you saw them before they were messing with you. You should have been looking for a weapon. The plate in your hand, the chair you could kick in front of them if they got too close. 2. Always hit first. Always, always hit first. And always go for the biggest one. Obviously it goes without saying that you have made it clear to the bozos that you don't want trouble, but will fight to the death. 3. Before you strike, avoid at all costs. I prefer to stare them down, not talking. If that doesn't work and you have no choice, at the top of your lungs yell something like "WHAT did YOU call my mother!!".
:D
Obviously you do this if there are witnesses around, and you have no choice but to fight. If there aren't people around you're just stupid. Always have someone watching your six. Strength in numbers.
BTW: Legal disclaimer applies. This is to win a fight where you might be seriously hurt or killed. Not some pissing contest. Legally this could get you thrown in jail, where some guy named Muffin thinks you're cute.

Your personal situation though, DO let us know what your Dad thinks, and what kind of man he is. If he's the Gregory Peck type he's perfect.

[Arc-Lite]

you learn threw experience... sounded like a hold up to me...and not a fight, you kept your stuff, got a smoker on the cheek, and the law is after the scum, if their are in your school, let the police deal with them.... might save you, and might save someone down the road, when these scum bags, take that next step...toward the big house. were these dudes the target of your friends beef?

[winstonsmith]

Guys, these weren't dudes from my school, they were dudes from Juvenile Hall across the street, they hold classes or something.

They werent bullies, or at least not in the classical sense.

Yes, they were the same dudes.

[El Tejon]

5'8", 130 lbs., good build for BJJ.

Keep your hands up! Even if in front of you, "hey, I don't want any trouble."

[outofbattery]

walking slow and casing people

Guess what ? They're predators and you , a small statured guy with something of value to be easily taken , are their prey . NYC has had an increase in subway crime related to ipods : they see the headphones and , there's the future victim . Might want to look less like one in the future - to them , you might as well have been a lone female with a Louis Vuitton bag , jangling the keys to your Lexus . I don't think dark clothing and boots would have helped your cause as long as you still had something stealable visable .

[Battlespace]

In 1965 I was a high school freshman. Had a kid in shop class that kept picking on me. I told him to take a hike and he took a swing at me. I countered with the handle of a claw hammer. Too bad I held the hammer by the head and not the handle. I raised a good sized knot on his head. I got suspended for a day, but it was well worth it. Never had another fight or bit of trouble for the next four years.

[hso]

Good to hear you're uninjured.

This is not a "school bully" situation. It is a straight forward kid gang theft/assault. It may have gotten truely violent and deadly, but did not. It probably didn't because the kid gang hasn't gotten that hardened yet.

This is also a good example of why MA training does not equate to self defense. It sounds like there were plenty of signs leading up to the attack that the potential for violence was building yet you did many things on reflection that you will not do in the future. You put yourself in a corner. You left yourself outnumbered. You did not have your guard up.

Dark clothing and shaggy hair will not protect you because they are only camoflage to keep you from being spotted and selected out from the herd/background.

[saddlebum]

as a 6' 5" 250# fat man i want to know what happened to the burrito? i don't care who you are, you make me drop my burrito and people are gonna get hurt. saddlebum

[Dionysusigma]

<Logical Rant On>
One thing regarding iPods that I just can't understand--

The trademark sign of the iPod is the white headphones and cord, right?
So why not:
A) Unplug the cord and discard, and
B) Walk into Wal-Mart/Best Buy/Radio Shack/Ultimate Electronics/Circuit City/Bill's Two-Way Radios and BUY A DIFFERENT :cuss: SET OF HEADPHONES? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :confused:

</Rant>

Dark clothing and shaggy hair will not protect you because they are only camoflage to keep you from being spotted and selected out from the herd/background.
Protect? Not in the strictest sense of the term... but avoiding being seen is always good. If they don't acknowledge your presence, you can get out of a sticky situation a lot quicker and easier.

I'd say you did well. You're not dead or badly injured (which is always a plus :) ), and you still have your iPod.

However, I'd recommend that you do what we did back in high school--get a pair of black headphones that are the in-ear bud type. Wear a long-sleeve shirt as well. Run the phones up through the shirt and down the arm so that they come out the sleeve of your weak arm. If you like, do the same thing with your cell phone earset through the other arm. That way, you can rest your head on your hand and listen to music whenever you want. :D

[357wheelgunner]

You did fine. Your Dad, Grandad, and older members of this forum probably don't know what it is like to face down an ethnically different gang while at school, so try to take anything they say with a grain of salt.

I got out of high school 4 years ago so this is not too far off to me. I was always in trouble with the local gangster wannabe types. The problem of packs of thugs commiting real crime in school is getting out of hand. They left me alone after I beat down one of their toughest "homies" in the dairy isle at a local pic n' save (he followed me into the store, cornered me, and attacked me).

The thing I learned was that if you put one or two of the thugs in the hospital the rest will do one of two things:
1. Respect or fear you and leave you alone
2. Come back in numbers or armed and kill you or severly injure you.

The first one is good, the second not-so. This is a tough situation and I wish you luck. I'd recommend keeping your head down and not attracting any attention, high school will be over before you know it. If you have to fight, get the first hit. Aim for sensitive areas (nose, eyes, NOSE, genitals, nose, ears, jaw, did I mention the nose?) and don't hold back. Don't try to take out multiple thugs, focus on one and put him down. Oh yeah, and if they show up in your lawn and challenge you call the cops right away. A friend of mine had a gang invade his home and beat him up really badly.

I feel for you, I was there a few years ago......

[CleverName]

One semi-legitimate criticism of BJJ (BTW, Royce Gracie has a BJJ gym/dojo/whatever you call it in SF, IIRC it's in the Mission district) is that it focuses on one attacker. That's great if there's just one attacker, but if there's more than one, and you've got somebody in guard, their buddies can just hit you in the back of the head.

I'd still learn BJJ though.

[Ozendorph]

I'm not going to say there's any bad advice in this thread...but some of it is surprising.

You didn't escalate the situation...a good idea when unarmed and out-numbered. Throwing blows on six guys without any backup isn't going to go well for you, and is a plan best avoided unless you want to martyr yourself over an ipod.

It's true, they might mark you as a target in the future. Not because you're easy pickings (they came up empty-handed, after all), but rather because you called the police. If they're already in a juvenille correctional program, they're going to be up a creek if they get made, and they're going to be pretty cheesed off about it. That said, calling the police wasn't necessarily a bad idea, as it helps to cement your story if there's any future altercations.

Your best course of action now is avoidance. They don't have a name, address, or any other information about you, save for your appearance. Try to leave school at a different time for a while (kick it in the library and get some studying done), and when you do leave campus try not to go it alone. Also, talk to your school principle and alert him or her of the situation. That'll put the administrators and security on the look out for these guys.

If they don't catch up with you in a couple weeks, everything will likely blow over. They'll forget about you quick enough. And from the sound of it, they probably won't last long in their current situation anyway...they'll probably get moved to a different facility if they keep stirring up trouble.

[Atticus]

Considering the location and the odds, it sounds like you did the right thing to me. Remember though - they are not going away.....soon anyway.

[torpid]

<Logical Rant On>
One thing regarding iPods that I just can't understand--

The trademark sign of the iPod is the white headphones and cord, right?
So why not:
A) Unplug the cord and discard, and
B) Walk into Wal-Mart/Best Buy/Radio Shack/Ultimate Electronics/Circuit City/Bill's Two-Way Radios and BUY A DIFFERENT SET OF HEADPHONES?

</Rant>



:confused:

Are you suggesting that he give them his headphones, and they'd not take what it's attatched to?

Or are you suggesting people should use non-iPod headphones because muggers only take official Apple mp3 players?

Or do you just not like the default iPod headphones, and are suggesting an alternative?


.

[bratch]

I believe he is saying when people see white headphones nowadays they almost always think IPOD.

A set of black headphones could be attached to a $5 walkman not nearly as inticing a target to a would be mugger.

[Bob41081]

One thing I say is ditch the Ipod. Wait until you're on the bus. This would help with your Situational(sp?) Awareness. If it was in a backpack until you got on the bus they would'nt even be interested in you.

Bob

[bratch]

Another option: When using my MP3 player I only have one ear phone in. I can still pay some attention to what is going on around me. I also try to look around alot more. When you lose one sense the others must step up.

[TMM]

Carry a cane, learn atleast rudimentary cane skills. Cold Steel has a cane fighting DVD and a good cane too. (the City Stick). the Steel head could do some damage... oh, and don't corner yourself.

~TMM

[chadintex]

First off, I'm glad your OK. I have an elderly friend who had a very similiar thing happen to him a few years ago. They used sticks on him and knocked out 9 of his teeth, so it could be worse.

If it makes you feel better, most of them will be dead or in jail within the next few years. You are probably still upset about it, go to the gym and work off some of the stress.

A padlock on a stout piece of string and a Cross pen are nice things to have at school.

[thorn726]

i think some of these guys don't understand the severity of black on white violence out here.

you did great. these kids might very well have hospitalized you.\


i would consider a small can of pepper spray or something.
i know yer not allowed in school, but maybe you can figure a way to hide it or something, might be worth the trouble.

but yeah, next time- definitely recognize the backwards Cali method of putting glove ON to fight (i accidentally almsot got beaten for putting mine on , i was trying to get on my motorbike and get away, but gloves on means fight- apparently to prevent getting AIDs).

large groups coming towards you are
NOT friendly.
once some kids were tossing record albums down the road. i decided to pick on up and throw it. landed next to a big crack dealer.
him and buddy approach, i am all "sorry sorry"
they pretend it is ok, walk up, guy puts out his hand to shake mine, and like a dummy i looked at outstretched hand, and caught his other fist with my lip.
ouch.

trust no one.

[winstonsmith]

Umm... I wasn't using ipod headphones, i had mundane although large black ones.


I saw three of them again today, told the security guard, security guard called the cops... the 'bangers left... So now twice they've had the cops called on them because of me.

Tell me about pepper spray.. it seems I can carry it legally with a note from my parents.

[XLMiguel]

You may want to start here, http://www.foxlabs.net/ - good stuff! Also use teh 'search' function, lotsa god poop on OC/pepper sprays has been posted here. HTH

[Denko]

You need to get some combative skills training.Visit some of the local schools,the first lesson is always free.If it is not free or they try to get you to sign a contract go else ware.Good training will change your life.

[Gordon]

Lot's of good advice. Yeah take up martial arts!
But here a quick idea. Since you didn't injure the maggot's ego infront of his pack , he prolly won't be right back especially if you have nothing visable of value.
Ok I will 'share' with you to start carrying a clip board, coarse a lexan one is best , but an aluminum one works OK (get one from an ambulance). That could of blocked that punch if you did not know how to execute a rising block. The edge of the clip board , specially after a few file strokes, would slice an attacker open real good! Any weapon is better than none. Since they can't bust you in high school for a clip board and pens; a pocket full of real strong industrial art sharpies could be delivered real fast and deep. :evil:Think shield and ice pick-drive it in :evil: !
The down side of this is they may do a drive by on you later :uhoh:

[Coltdriver]

I think you did just fine. Walking away intact from these nut cases is a victory in my book. These fellows sound like a bunch of sissies following a brave sissy. It they took off running when the brave one hit you, they are not genuine killers. That does not make them less dangerous.

That said, I got in a fight every year I was in school from 6th grade to my junior year by which time nobody would screw with me because they knew I would maul em even if they mauled me worse which happened on a few occasions. I got picked on, I think, because I was tall and skinny.

I was once accosted by a gang in my neighborhood. I escaped and went home. My Dad and I went back to where we knew they were. I beat the crap out of the one that started it and my Dad acted as my second. None of the other punks jumped in. Today that could easily get you thrown in jail or killed.

I am not advising that you take any such action because you have a situation that is more potentially deadly. Sounds like you can handle it with intellect instead of getting beat or worse to prove a point. If you can simply outsmart these people it is a better course to take. You only need to bide some time in order to get out of school.

If you can carry pepper spray, do it. It will give you a great chance to stop the fight and run like hades.

For what it is worth, punching someone is a felony. Felony assault is one notch under murder in the greater scheme of felonies. If I were looked at cross eyed by these fellows one more time I would go to a judge and get a restraining order. It won't keep you from getting harrassed and it won't keep you from getting beat up. But, with it you can escalate the punishment they get fairly dramatically if they repeat on you. Trust me, you are just one more stepping stone in the life of these scum. If your action does not divert them, some one elses action or victimhood will. But I would only go to a restraining order if they singled you out. Its not likely that they have the focus in life to do that.

If you can simply avoid these people it is a better course. They will forget about you soon enough. If they don't forget about you just remember there are no rules of any kind in a fight. There is no such thing as fighting fair.

Good luck and let us know if this all turns down in the next few weeks. Do you go to school year round or are you out for the summer?

[winstonsmith]

I've been taking martial arts for most of my life, including kenpo, Judo, Krav Maga, and most recently Hapkido. But there were 7 of them, all huge. That stuff only goes so far.

Good advice all, thank you.

[Alex45ACP]

If this had happened to me, each of these kids would have something bad happen to them, one by one...

;)

[Kevlarman]

Peppery-type spray at the very least, and how about some nice steel-toed boots for a swift kick in the shins?

[winstonsmith]

Kevlar, I usually wear steel toed combat boots, with a nice stout heel for those knee-incapacitating slide-side kicks... That was the first day in literally years I hadn't worn those to school.

Thinking about bringing a small hammer tomorrow. Damn the consequences.

[pete f]

DO you have a camera phone? small digital camera? take pics of them. better for the ID, look for them, keep them in sight, if you see something illegal on them, smoking up, a knife, etc, call the cops, tell them :"rasheed has a knife at school:" hang up they will be there in ten minutes and he will be gone.

I was the school punchin bag until second week of junior year, I was getting picked on during passing period until I just decided I had had enough. Boy had dumped my books on the floor and was laughing at me and turned his back on me and reached into his locker. I did a full body slam on his locker door with his arm inside the locker. By the end of the day it was all over school i had done a Hoffa on the guy and beat him senseless and then put his arm in the locker and kicked it shut till his arm broke, no not the way it happened but the story made me out to be someone not to be hassled. Sometimes making a stand is the way to stop it. At least then you feel you have done you part.

[Grump]

However, if they wanted to kill you, you'd be dead.

Generally true, almost to the usefulness of the self-fulfilling prophecy...
Consequently, by your inaction, they now see you as an easy target, IMO.
I tend to disagree. This target resisted just enough that the ringleader went away empty-handed. This target took a punch and bounced back up....didn't cry...didn't beg for forgiveness and hand over the goods...and in general, didn't join the group of folks who are *fun* to punch or harass because they give such entertaining responses.

I once walked away from a gang-bully (who was alone at that moment) who was displeased that I had pummelled his buddy the day before. Tough guy threw a roundhouse kick to my side as I walked away, but it space between my coat and my body soaked up all the force. Hands in pockets while saying "I'm not going to fight you", holding the closest and most likely impact area almost tight like that trash bag in the Jackie Chan commercial. He gave up. I was no fun.

Did no one comment on the *good* thing done while getting cornered--he got into the sight and company of witnesses who knew him. I cornered myself once and nothing happened, 'cause getting cornered happened as I drove into the local PD's parking lot while the toughs were following me in their car. I just didn't feel like shooting anyone that day, okay? Gotta love surveillance cameras operated by the cops!

[Denko]

I've been taking martial arts for most of my life, including kenpo, Judo, Krav Maga, and most recently Hapkido. But there were 7 of them, all huge. That stuff only goes so far.

Blocking with your face doesn't get you very far either.There is a big difference between taking martial arts and learning martial arts.The arts are useless without fighting spirit.Maybe this will help you to develop some.I worked in the criminal warehouse for twenty years.These criminals now have you marked as an easy victim.They ran because of witnesses.Life's lessons can be tough,decide if you are a possum or a tiger.I had to learn this lesson the hard way myself,SO realize I am not putting you down.Train hard,your life may well depend on it.

[CAS700850]

You went home, with nothing more than a black eye. Meaning, you did fine. No matter what, all that truly matters is that you go home when all is said and done. Are you now a "marked man"? Who knows? Unfortunately, the only way you'll really find out for sure is if you get a repeat performance. The question is, what do you do in the meantime?

Prepare yourself, as best you can. No, you can't arm yourself with a tricked out M-4, but if you can get some pepperspray, do it. Learn how to use it, and carry it daily. It will be easier to fight the gang, God forbid, if they have trouble seeing you after catching a face full of pepper. Continue with your martial arts training. No, you're not Jackie Chan, but it sure beats curling up in the fetal position, praying that you'll survive.

As for dress, forget dressing to intimidate. Try dressing for action. Pants the fit, not too loose so as to trip you up or too tight so as to restrict your movements. Shoes that you can run and jump in, as necessary.

AS for the iPod, keep it in the backpack when your out walking. Got a cell phone? Calling for help is not a sign of cowardice, it's a sign of intelligence. How about a couple of textbooks in the backpack. Swing that around and it'll get someones attention pretty quick. Avoidance is good advice. Look into alternate routes. Don't be predictable. Vary your routine as much as possible, to minimize the risk of ambush.

Above all else, think about all of this. And think about it some more. Play "what if" in your mind as much as possible, so that you actually have thought out the options, the possibilities, and your response options. As they say, prior planning prevents p!$$ poor performance.

[TechBrute]

I've been taking martial arts for most of my life, including kenpo, Judo, Krav Maga, and most recently Hapkido. But there were 7 of them, all huge. That stuff only goes so far. Yeah, and it goes even less far when you don't even use it. Good thing for you that they got scared by you falling down.

1. Ditch the Ipod. I could write pages on why, but I'll stay off the rant button and leave it at that.
2. If they are following you and continuing to provoke you, they're not going to stop by you continuing to turn your back on them and walk. Either fight or flight. Turn or run. Don't continue to walk and interact with them.
3. As you noticed, corners are bad, but so is being out in the open when there's 7 of them, plenty to surround.
4. Being a ninja (or whatever kenpo, Judo, Krav Maga, and most recently Hapkido makes you), you should be more familiar with using "ordinary" objects as "weapons". A roll of pennies, a surefire flashlight, a small wooden dowel, a screwdriver, and many other things make great improvised weapons.

You were real lucky this time.