Hogue stock and Pistol Tamer Grip/ Speed loader


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Guy B. Meredith
May 17, 2005, 02:36 PM
Anyone had experience with these? I know that for the 12 GA the standard pistol grip offers only "cool" appearance and damaged wrist, is the Hogue version any more practical?

Is the Armstec speed loader practical for HD or just a competition thing?

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Jack2427
May 20, 2005, 01:28 AM
Any SG with only a PG is pretty close to useless except for across the aisle distances. Folders are more practical when short OAL is paramount, like in a cramped vehicle or aircraft, for the getting out of, and then extending the stock.

I am an advocate of regular stocked shotguns for a couple of reasons:

1. You want both hands in the same plane, not at right angles to each other for best weapon control.

2. The same for both weapon rentention(shotguns are close range weapons), and using the weapon for the vertical/horizontal butt stroke so beloved of drill sergeants prior to the M16.

3. With slide actions guns, I seem to be able to control the pumping action better with a standard grip stock. Having a pistol grip on the forearm of a pump may be neat looking, but essentially useless due to the hand angle, couple it to a pistol grip for the firing hand and you have got even less control.

There may be a place for the so called "witness" type guns with 12" barrels and a modified pistol grip, but it is an absolute "belly gun", and less useful than a handgun at anything over 3 meters.

I have carried shotguns professionally for 40+ years, and if you look at what the real pros carry, you will see pretty much a plain jane weapon without, saddles, lights, lasers, glass packs, rocket launchers, JATO units, etc. What you might see are ghost ring sights, extended mag, maybe even a holo sight, a sling, and every so often a butt cuff w/5-6 extra rounds.

I am not intent on deingrating anyone who wants the extra tactical stuff, but aside from looking neat, most of it does not add appreciably to the utility of the weapon. In some cases, as in recoil operated semi auto guns, the extra stuff will interefere with proper functioning of the weapon. That said I have 2 (out of many) shotguns with a full stock with an "assault type" pistol grip, both are 1100s, with long barrels and 9-10 shot mags, and are specific purpose weapons, used primarily for defending a fixed position against a known threat where the distance from the position and nearby cover/concealment is really short.

I have Hogue stocks on a couple of 870s, and really like them, only snit is the LOP is slightly long for real tactical use, but for recoil control and "grippiness" they are really nice.

IMHO, the "speedloaders" are useful only in matches, I have a few, but the carrying and use of in a real life scenario are probably not practical.

Guy B. Meredith
May 20, 2005, 10:23 AM
Thanks for the information. In my case the Mossberg would be used primarily for taking shots at bad guys within about 7 yds--the greatest distance in my house.

If a pistol grip stock is practical for getting around corners I would consider it, but I am into functional and not cool. The two main reasons for using a shotgun rather than my revolver are having a two hand grip when I am out of control nervous and preferring to have an inexpensive shotgun in the evidence locker rather than my more expensive revolver.

We have wide doors in our house since it is built with disabled residents in mind, but the first encounter would probably be from our master bedroom where it opens into a cross wise hall. I have experimented with shouldering the Mossberg as I look around the corner to the left and find it a bit cumbersome.

Jeff82
September 23, 2006, 09:22 PM
Take your shotgun out to a tac shotgun match and see how you do with it. Look at what others are using, which ones are hanging up, giving probs, etc. Decide if the advantages/disadvantages apply to the real world (not gameland) and apply to your own situation.

I just did that with my own new Rem 1100 Tactical and Man is my hand tired from loading shells! This particular course was 5 stages and about 125 rounds, clean (the pendulumn was a bear!). I fired 135.

But now I know how this gun works and where my shortcomings are. Time to improve...

Fred Fuller
September 24, 2006, 03:58 AM
GBM,

Best bet is to be hunkered down behind cover with the gun pointed to the backlit door when the BG shows up, better not to go out looking for him unless you have to move to a different location to protect other family members.

You shouldn't need shoulder a shotgun if moving indoors when you spot a potential target- the butt should already be in the shoulder (well, armpit maybe) with the muzzle rotated down clear of your own feet in the 'indoor ready' position. Here's the position as demo'ed by Louis Awerbuck, see his video (available from the Lending Library) for his full Mr. Hollywood demonstration (his term, not mine).

http://www.yfainc.com/shotgun.jpg

You will want to stay well back from any door opening and 'slice the pie' to clear it before you go through it. Crowding close to anything you can't see around when there might be an assailant in your house is asking for trouble, no matter how short a gun you're using.

Forget the PGO (pistol grip only) and learn to use a standard stocked shotgun...

Chances are it'll be over well before you run the gun dry, the best speedloaders are the fingers of your support side hand and a readily available ammunition supply, preferably (IMO) attached to the gun. Sidesaddle, butt cuff, Speedfeed magazine stock, whatever works for you- or for that matter a pouch or pocket, if you sleep with it on- are your best bet for a real- world speedloader. Learn to load the gun from whatever device you decide to use and practice practice practice. Start with the gun shouldered as if on target, let go with the support hand, drop the muzzle of the shouldered gun until the weight seems to come off the gun some, hold it in place with your shooting hand, and use the front of the trigger guard to guide fresh ammo into the magazine one round at a time. That way there's nothing else to gather up and lug along. Again, ask for the Awerbuck tape in the Lending Library, he demonstrates this also.

lpl/nc

ExLonghorn
October 24, 2009, 07:45 PM
There is absolutely NO inherent advantage for a traditional stock over a PG shotgun in most situations. As another poster wrote, in 3-gun matches you'll see both types being used. Today we just ran our annual all-shotgun match (6 stages, 100 rounds) and the guys ranking #1-4 and myself at #11 out of 40 participants all ran Benelli M2's or M4's...pistol grip shotguns. Included in this match was a shoot house stage...actually maneuvering around corners, down hallways, through doors, and through windows/openings. The stage forced competitors to run the gun dry after every 5 rounds, so reloading the semi-autos during CQB didn't present a disadvantage either. We get many Army operators from nearby Fort Hood, so few slouches here. All just add in that the Benelli M4 is the standard Marine/Army tactical shotgun...semi auto, pistol grip.

As for discounting the "tacti-cool" stuff, I disagree there as well. We run 4 night-shoots each year. The guys with the wepon-mounted lights and lasers pound the guys only running handheld flashlights and iron sights. I won last year with a Springfield XD with a Crimson Trace grip and Insight Procyon XTi weaponlight.

Trust me, these same folks who tout the superiority of pump shotguns over autos, or who think pistol grips are inferior, clearly don't compete among skilled friends regularly. As a point, here's today's all-shotgun results...11 guys ran pump shotguns, but only one ended up in the top 15.

PLACE NAME CLASS Total Time
1 S Blackwell Auto 111.98
2 K Zulkowski Auto 127.78
3 D Johnson Auto 128.12
4 S Guinther Auto 138.59
5 V Blackwell Auto 139.05
6 J Nikoley Auto 141.20
7 F Quarles Pump 145.01
8 J Morris Auto 150.51
9 I Royals Auto 159.70
10 R Lawson Auto 162.08
11 M Metz Auto 163.30
12 D Smith Auto 177.56
13 M Hanson Open 179.94
14 J Winter Auto 180.04
15 R Thomas Auto 185.09

Jeff82
October 24, 2009, 10:20 PM
I think he meant pistol grip as in "pistol grip only" (no butt stock at all), not pistol grip on a stock.

DAVIDSDIVAD
October 25, 2009, 12:09 AM
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Guy B. Meredith
October 25, 2009, 12:50 AM
The Pistol Grip Tamer is PGO.

I have a thing about semis--just don't trust them and will avoid them for the most part. Revolver shooter in handguns, intentionally picked up the pump Mossberg rather than an autoloader.

Not going out on too many tactical missions, probability of more than one real life encounter small and would not want an unnecessarily expensive firearm stashed in the evidence locker.

The Mossberg now sits within easy reach with a combination of 00 buckshot and slugs.
Still practicing the corners.

I asked for a tour off the Hogue shop and picked up the stock while I was there. They gave me dealer price and installed the stock. Great people. (They also are great supporters of the International Revolver Championship held annually at their range in San Luis Obispo.}

rmfnla
December 2, 2009, 02:39 PM
Alot depends on the intended purpose of the shotgun.

I've "sold" more shotguns to people who thought they wanted a pistol for home defense than I can remember. My favorite is the Mossberg pump for several reasons:

1. "Tang" safety (there's really no tang, but you know what I mean). Best way to be sure if it's on or off, especially in a tense situation. Got to replace the plastic OEM unit with a metal one from Brownell's but that takes only a few minutes and it gives you a chance to QC the gun to make sure all is as it should be.

2. They are available with extra-capacity mag. tubes from the factory. I'd rather avoid an add-on here; one-piece is more reliable.

3. I like pistol a grip (PGO) for home defense. Yes, it requires a little practice (but who would keep a tactical weapon and not practice with it at least a few times?! :eek:) I find the shorter OAL useful for quick deployment, and if proper ammo is used recoil is manageable (we ain't hunting geese here...). If recoil is an issue the softness of the Hoague Tamer certainly can't hurt, but just how many rounds do we expect to be firing in your average situation?
PGO usually means a pump since many autos have their recoil springs in the stock.


I agree with Jack2427 about all the geegaws people hang on their weapons. Home defense guns can sit for months between uses and I don't want to worry about batteries going dead at the wrong time. Also, those accessory rails have sharp edges on them; competition types can wear gloves but that is not practical for home defense. The aforementioned Hoague "grippiness" is an asset here as well.

Just my $0.02...

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