At What point woulod you draw your gun?

[lostone1413]

If someone was having a heated argument with and came toward at what point would you draw your gun? I read so many places were someone feels threatened and draws his gun. As you read the replys it always sounds like some feel that unless the person has actually attacked to that your not justified in drawing your gun. To me in any situation the second you feel he might physically come after you now matter if he is 10 feet or 10 yards away you are justified in drawing a gun. What are your thoughts on the subject??

I think that I am thinking more say someone is coming toward you in a threating way, Their is a point were if you have a gun in the holster and he would be holding a knife were you can't see it. Once he gets maybe it is 15feet away the odds swing in the favor

[Father Knows Best]

The question is always what is reasonable under the circumstances. There are some scary studies that show how quickly an attacker can cross what sounds like a large distance.

If I feel threatened, I will certainly be alert for escape/evasion routes and ways to attract attention/help. I may adjust my concealment garment unobtrusively to ensure I am ready for a quick draw. I will not actually reveal my weapon unless and until I believe an attack is imminent and I cannot safely avoid it.

[P95Carry]

In essence - ''when all other options have been used up'' - but then probably quickly - very quickly.

Always hope I can get the heck outa Dodge and never have to test that out. :)

[Standing Wolf]

Once he gets maybe it is 15feet away the odds swing in the favor...

The rule of thumb is that if the criminal has a knife and is within 21 feet of you, he's got time enough to stab you at least once before you can draw and fire—and that's if you're reasonably quick.

Better to draw too soon than too late.

[pax]

You can use deadly force (draw your gun) against another person when the following requirements have been met:

Ability -- does the person coming toward you have the power to kill or cripple you or another innocent person? (This power might be represented by a weapon, by disparity of force -- very much bigger than you, very much younger than you, he's male & you're female, there are two or more of them and only one of you, etc.)

Opportunity -- are the circumstances such that the person is able to use the element of Ability against you? (This takes the totality of the situation into account -- where he's standing, where you're standing, what obstacles or impediments might be between you.)

Jeopardy -- would a reasonable and prudent person, knowing what you knew at the time, reasonably believe that the person who possesses both Ability & Opportunity intended to kill or cripple you or another innocent person? (This includes vocalizations such as threats or yells, physical actions, or any other thing that might manifest intent to do harm.)

All that said. I can't give you a specific answer like, "You can draw your gun when the attacker is ___ feet away," because it all depends. You must be able to articulate how your life was in danger at the moment you pulled the trigger, and in most jurisdictions it's not wise to show your gun until that moment.

I can tell you that if someone is having a heated argument with me, I'm going to be trying to back off & disengage. I certainly don't want any of the bystanders to testify that I provoked the confrontation, prolonged it, or entered into a physical altercation as anything other than a last resort.

pax

[Sindawe]

If someone was having a heated argument with and came toward at what point would you draw your gun? Only if the person had an object in their hands and were raising/weilding it as a weapon.

Keep in mind, *I* only get into heated discusions/arguments with my friends, folks I've known for years and trust implicitly. If an in person discussion with a stranger starts to get heated, I typically leave. I have more important things to do than bicker with fools.

[Hawkmoon]

What Pax said.

With one addendum: The laws of each state, while somewhat similar in this regard, are all different in regard to details and definitions. You MUST read the law in effect where you are.

As a rule -- it's best to avoid "heated arguments."

[goalie]

If someone was having a heated argument with and came toward at what point would you draw your gun?

Well, since I would be following these rules of gunfighting:

1. If you can walk away, walk away.
2. If you cannot walk away, run away.
3. If you cannot run away, you didn't walk away soon enough.
4. If you have to shoot, shoot until the threat stops.

I would not have been in a heated argument while carrying a firearm. I would have walked away....

[FireBreather01]

You had better be able to clearly and convincingly show that you were threatened to the point that you feared great bodily harm or you're going to be in a world of trouble. Some states have 'castle' laws that may help you but in a situation like you describe you would probably be looking at an assault charge at the very least.

This describes exactly what the anti-gunners fear, CCW holders drawing their firearm at the mere hint of trouble. What they don't understand is the mentality clearly stated by the responses here - that most of us who carry take extraordinary measures to avoid confrontation. In fact, I think it is encumbent upon us to maintain our composure and avoid, control, or end these situations before they deteriorate.

If you carry, it is your duty to avoid and defuse problems before they develop. "An armed society is a polite society"!

[P95Carry]

FireBreather01 If you carry, it is your duty to avoid and defuse problems before they develop. "An armed society is a polite society"! +1 - and some!!! :)

[R.H. Lee]

Avoid getting into a 'heated argument', especially while you are armed. Learn how to disengage from/redirect aggression toward you. All interpersonal skills are not necessarily related to firearms use. :p Do not draw a weapon unless you are prepared to use it immediately and without hesitation. That means you are under threat of imminent and unavoidable great bodily harm or death.

[Tharg]

I'd draw my gun.....

when i'd run out of options (in instances where i get to think about it)

when i'd be willing to accept the consequences (in instances where i get to think about it)

when i'd not be thinking (because of waking up in the middle of the night and being suprised by people who obviously didn't know me because they'd know better than to burst in my door...)

when i saw someone else being assaulted... (on the street? guns in a concert... any number of posts i've seen here on THR)

when i saw law officers in trouble/assaulted by someone.(as a CHL carrier here in Texas died for.. trying to stop a criminal in Tyler Texas... )

I might be wrong on some of these... but those are instances when i'd think i'd be warranted to draw and use deadly force... if the law doesn't agree w/ me... then sorry.... i'm but *a* citizen... trying to do the right thing... and whatever that gets me... is what i get. Ya get what ya get in those instances... and i'd hope that common sense that isn't prevails...

J/Tharg!

[Fletchette]

Avoid getting into a 'heated argument', especially while you are armed. Learn how to disengage from/redirect aggression toward you. All interpersonal skills are not necessarily related to firearms use. Do not draw a weapon unless you are prepared to use it immediately and without hesitation. That means you are under threat of imminent and unavoidable great bodily harm or death.

What he said.

A long time ago, in a lifetime far far away, I started carrying. I rapidly found out the necessity of being able to swallow your pride, and gracefully walk away from a fight. An armed populace really is more polite!

Every time I had to do this, after I cooled down I felt much better. I always pictured in my head a judge looking down on me from his bench and saying, "so, you had the opportunity to walk away, but instead, you chose to shoot Mr. Hothead."

A bad shoot does nothing for the cause.

[chris in va]

Here in VA I understand that you have to try and back away first and prove you were trying to escape before firing. Otherwise you were 'asking for it'.

[38SnubFan]

It looks as if Pax and Gaolie already made my points.

First of all, CCW does mean swallowing your pride and walking away from an argument, sometimes even if you're right. It is better to walk away and be able to tell the story - and not from behind bars.

"Disparity of force," in my opinion, is also going to be rather difficult to justify in a court of law. You had best be sure that if you shoot an unarmed attacker, it's because he most certainly WOULD HAVE KILLED YOU! If the worst the attacker would have done is give you a bloody nose, a fat lip, a boken arm, or an "egg" on your head; that's not enough justification.

OC spray may be an effective option; however, make sure you've been trained in its use and effects - including getting sprayed with it yourself.

I know many of us carry a small flashlight (i.e. Surefire, Stinger, etc.) with us. These can be a good last-resort impact weapon.

Another good idea: Take a self-defense (read: hand-to-hand combat) course, so that an attack by an unarmed BG doesn't have to bring extreme legal consequences.

In short, use your head.

-38SnubFan

[Whatsit]

People on these gun boards are just bursting at the seams to 'draw down' on someone. The gun doesn't solve everything. The above posters make good points.

[mnrivrat]

If the worst the attacker would have done is give you a bloody nose, a fat lip, a boken arm, or an "egg" on your head; that's not enough justification.

I have to take exception to that one. With all due respect if you let it go to the point where someone is fattening your lip, breaking your arm, or something along those lines, you have given up the right to defend yourself. The problem with that thinking is that you have NO gaurantee when an attacker will stop or IF they will stop before your dead. I don't have a crystal ball to know when an attack would stop and therefore I will not take a beating in the hopes I don't get seriously harmed or killed from it.

People on these gun boards are just bursting at the seams to 'draw down' on someone.

Sorry - I have to take exception to that also . I do not see that mentality being anywhere near wide spread on this boad.

[TheFederalistWeasel]

As someone already pointed out, just how will you know an attacker will stop with a busted lip or broken nose and not continue to beat you down, until you lose consciousness?

At some point it will become apparent to you that maybe you can use deadly force, but at that point I would contend it’s too far gone and attempting to unholster a weapon while someone is steady wailing on you would probably guarantee you will be the one getting shot after this person lands one or two more solid punches then takes your gun from you and kills you with it.

Now add in multiple attackers, maybe one who stands by while his buddy confronts you.

This whole idea of one being placed in mortal fear before deadly force can be used is nonsense at best.

You come at me as if you are going to place your hands on me and or making verbal threats towards me and I’m clearing leather.

OCGA 16-3-21.
(a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person against such other´s imminent use of unlawful force; however, except as provided in Code Section 16-3-23, a person is justified in using force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

[Boss Spearman]

I'm a small guy, have some back and neck problems, not very strong. If someone starts to come at me in a heated argument, I'm drawing right away. I have to have any chance to save myself.

Then again, I've never had any heated arguments with anyone. I hope that trend continues.

[JGReed]

FederalistWeasel,

I'd be interested in your LEO perspective on this.

You respond to a call in a restaurant parking lot and find that Bob and Tom have gotten in an altercation after a fender bender. They are similar sized individuals and neither are gang-bangers. Heck they both have families present but Bob is really ticked cuz Tom's lousy driving has dented his new F250.

As most real-world fistfights begin, after a few words were exchanged Bob gave Tom a hard stiff-arm shove and then stepped forward to shove again. At this point Tom pulled a gun on Bob, and Bob's wife called 911.

In this case Bob not only acted as if he'd put hands on Tom but he went ahead and did it. 'Course when you show up what you find is an un-injured Tom pointing a gun at Bob who has soiled himself in front of his screaming wife.

Who (if anyone) is going to jail this evening?

[mete]

JGReed, that reminds me of a time I drove by a gas station and saw an altercation .My GF knew I was carrying and I told her that that's the kind of situation that I would avoid getting involved with.Third parties can get the worst of the deal .....But to the original question -do everything you can to avoid confrontations , DEFLATE don't ESCULATE. Leave your macho at home when you carry.

[hightech]

Draw when the threat is direct and overt. :uhoh: Direct means there is no way to withdraw or other physical protection such as a door or barrier between you and the assailant. Overt means that there is some physical activity that threatens your well being such as display of a weapon, multiple assailants, or abnormal aggressive behavior. :)

[JShirley]

Hmph. I'm very capable, but the vast majority of the population outweighs and masses me.

Friend Byron is a large man, but is missing the outer part of the vertebra just under his neck; a hard blow there will kill him.

Avoid confrontation if reasonably possible, disengage if/when you can, but have a plan and go home in one piece.

Allowing someone to beat on me is nowhere in my plan.

John

[TallPine]

Allowing someone to beat on me is nowhere in my plan.
+1 ;)

Thanks for saying it so succinctly.

[TheFederalistWeasel]

I'd be interested in your LEO perspective on this.

Drawing upon Georgia law, which has no such brandishing law we have what is called pointing a pistol at another, which has specific exemptions for someone being in fear of great bodily harm or ones life.

I’d calm the situation down, separate both parties, ask Tom to secure his gun ASAP or I might even secure it, it would all depend on the atmosphere at the scene.

Interview as many witnesses as I could find.

If the stories added up to more or less what you described, I’d lay out the options.

A mutual release from prosecution, (Lack of Prosecution Form) or LOP, signed by both parties where neither side wants to press charges against the other, or both get hauled to jail.

I would explain to Bob that he has committed the offenses of simple assault and simple battery,

Simple Assualt which is defined as an act which places another in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily injury. A mere threat of harm is insufficient to support an assault charge. A threat combined with the apparent present ability of a defendant to actually carry out the threat is necessary. The victim must reasonably believe that he is in danger of receiving immediate bodily injury.

Simple Battery occurs when the defendant intentionally makes physical contact of an insulting or provoking nature or intentionally causes physical harm.

As for Tom, what he did would be open for the judge or a jury to decide, here’s the law for pointing a pistol at another.

Title 16, Chapter 11, Section 102 (16-11-102)
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he intentionally and without legal justification points or aims a gun or pistol at another, whether the gun or pistol is loaded or unloaded.
Personally, Tom was justified IMHO, but based on my experience I guarantee you dinner anywhere you want if I told Bob that he was going to jail to facing more charges than Tom, unless he signed the LOP, he would sign it.

By doing this, I am covered, the department is covered and you as the person who cleared leather you are covered because now, I have obtained in writing for me and you the statement from the person you had at gun point his desire not to press charges against you, so later if he did come back and want charges the DA would grill him or her real good over the change of heart and most likely after all facts are known and they talk to me would not allow Bobs charges to move forward because any good defense lawyer would use his written statements in court to impeach him, not withstanding the fact he entered a false statement in writing.

Which in Georgia is a felony, but in this case I doubt it would get pushed although I’m sure the defense lawyer would scare the ???? out of Tom with the threat of further charges.

Oh yeah, I guess Tom would tote the citations for the accident, since he was indeed at fault by your description.

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Oh wait a minute I just reread your post and see where you say this happened in the parking lot of a restaurant.

That is considered private property, so unless Tom was intoxicated, injured someone in the accident or for some reason parked in a properly marked handicapped parking spot he would not receive any citations.

In GA we can only write citations on private property for DUI, Reckless Driving, Homicide or Feticide by Vehicle or if any one is injured in the accident and required medical treatment within 24 hours of the accident.

Also parking in a properly marked handicapped parking spot.

So Tom would not get any tickets.

[JGReed]

Thanks very much for the well thought out answer TFW.

You wrote "Personally, Tom was justified IMHO, but based on my experience I guarantee you dinner anywhere you want if I told Bob that he was going to jail to facing more charges than Tom, unless he signed the LOP, he would sign it."

Does that mean that if Bob refused to sign it for whatever reason that you'd have to arrest both of them? Even if Tom was justified in your opinion, does the fact that Bob wants to try pressing charges force your hand? I realize that from your experience it isn't likely, I'm just trying to understand what the possibilities are.

[TheFederalistWeasel]

No one but a judge can for the hand of an officer in Georgia, the law is pretty plain and says if an officer has any misgivings about the evidence regardless he/she is to seek a warrant.

There is no requirement for an officer to arrest in Georgia.

If Bob refused to sign what I would do in this instance is properly ID both persons, including place of work/school etc…

I’d write up the report, clearly documenting everything including the inclusion of all witness statements, then I would take everything and personally go to our DA, who is a standup guy, who will listen. He’s been around long enough to know what is what and I would go on his recommendations as to what to ask for when I went to see the Judge.

If he felt as I would that Tom was justified, he would either have me forward this case to him so he could have his investigators take a closer look at it or have me just charge Bob, with the crimes he committed and then see if he would plea to a lesser charge in court or lawyer up.

If something like this or similar does happen you need to be clear when making any statements to anyone from the cops (especially) to your lawyer that you were in fear of great bodily harm or even death.

No law can determine exactly what you feel or determine whether or not you were indeed in fear or not.

It will be up to you and your attorney to make that case in a court or to the DA.

Most of that is purely subjective unless the circumstances are clear; such as this guy is 90 years old in a wheel chair coming at you with a foam Nerf bat or something.

[pythonguy]

You cannot carry a gun and have heated arguements or you will end up in jail and lose your right to own guns. Are you that scared, or looking to pull a gun every 5 seconds that you get in a fight and right away want to pull your gun?? What is it with some guys that they have the right to carry, and spend their whole lives LOOKING for a reason to pull out their guns? Remember the fellow in Texas, he carried and trained and when a suspect shot some people in court he fired on the guy only to be shot and killed because the perp had body armor? You think just pulling a gun makes you invincible or tough, fight the guy hand to hand and show how tough you are. Save pulling a gun for when your life in imminent danger. You want to carry and shoot people, join the army and go to Iraq, or does the thought that someone might shoot back scare you?

[TallPine]

Are you that scared, or looking to pull a gun every 5 seconds that you get in a fight and right away want to pull your gun??
I thought we were calmly and rationally discussing the situations where it would or would not be justified to draw a gun? :confused:

You have a problem with that :confused:

[spacemanspiff]

If you carry, it is your duty to avoid and defuse problems before they develop. "An armed society is a polite society"!
pshhawww!
whatever!!! i aint gonna be buildin no street cred if i follow 'dat route! i gots to be all up in 'dere faces representin' for my homiez, know what i'm sayin'? i gots to get the draw on 'dem 'fore 'dey gets 'da draw on me, know what i'm sayin'?

'dats why i duct tape my heater to my hand, so technically i'm never 'drawing' my piece out, its always out! plus it makes it easier to pick my nose or dig in my ear for wax, know what i'm sayin'?


spacemanbeentheredonethatboughtnotonebuttwotshirtswithoutdrawingmyweaponspiff

[JGReed]

'Preciate the input TFW. Thanks.

[pythonguy]

I have a problem with nothing, I am commenting like everyone else. Deadly force should be avoided at all costs, not anticipated. I am calm and totally rational, people can, and will do what they want. What, me worry? :D

(Actually I'm just trying to get to 100 posts so please excuse me)

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Well, I guess I forgot to pickup my crystal ball when the state issued me my CCL, heck I know POST forgot mine when the issued me my Peace Officers Certification, guess it’s on back order or something.

It’s funny how some here are quick to pronounce, more or less you don’t need to carry a gun when you are going to become involved in an argument or “just” a fist fight, but confidently neglect to explain how they apparently see into the future far enough to know when they will be in given situation, so they don’t carry.

It may seem absurd, but no more absurd than those advocating not pulling a gun when the situation is very fluid, very unpredictable and the outcome is in question.

[gcerbone]

I hear the point being raised by TFW. But I bristle at the idea that you will be able stop a situation by pulling a firearm. You aren't pulling a gun to scare the person into backing down. You are pulling a gun to prepare to stop him. My (humble) opinion is that anytime you clear leather, you had better be prepared to kill the person that you point it at. And, for that matter, defend your killing in court. If you aren't, then it doesn't come out. You don't allude to it, you don't show it, it doesn't exist.

To get back to the original question, then, I guess my answer is: "When you think that the person that you are in a heated argument with is so heated that he is about to kill or seriously maim you, and you have no way to get the heck out of there or diffuse the situation."

[mnrivrat]

I have a problem with nothing, I am commenting like everyone else. Deadly force should be avoided at all costs, not anticipated.

WOW ! I could have swore you had an issue with something here ?

BTW - I respectfully disagree with the "avoided at all costs, not anticipated"

If I felt that way I would not carry - there would be no need to unless I anticipated the possibility ,however unlikely, that I may need to use deadly force.

If your more scared of the Judge and Jury than you are of someone who would seriously harm or kill you, then you need to leave you firearm at home , in the safe, and unloaded.

Personaly I will give those that have permits to carry enough credit to act responsibly. To do otherwise is insulting 99% of those that carry in order to address the possiblity that 1% may be stupid enough to do it wrong.

[lostone1413]

I remember my CCW instructor who was a former LEO and one time a firearms instructor for Delta Force. He told us every year more people are physically beat to death in fights then killed with a gun. Most people look at say a fist fight as not being in mortal danger but many times that is not the case. Then you couple it with the fact when he is close enough to hit you he has a good chance of getting your gun and killing you. One other thing the instructor told us is one of the major causes of LEOs getting killed on the job is getting shot with their own gun. So their has to be a point if no way out that you won't let the threat cross as far as getting close to you.

[pythonguy]

I respect your opinion mnrivrat, I am a target shooter/gun collector and don't keep weapons for personal defense. I can't carry here in NY, and I doubt I would as I never had the opportunity so I am not used to it being the norm in my day to day life. I can appreciate people that live in secluded or rural areas that have been around guns their whole life feeling differently about this. I'm not against carry or guns or shooting, I have been shooting for many years beginning with .22 target rifles. I think shooting is a great hobby/sport and I look forward to going to the range each week. I also feel that the majority of people issued CCW are very responsible and careful about their weapons. I do take exception when that small minority use any excuse to flash, or pull their guns, however. I still think that in all but the most dire situation of potential death or crippling injury, shooting should be avoided at all costs. No sane person wants to take the chance of shooting a person that they had an arguement with but had no weapon or intent to mortally injure. Plus, there is always the chance an innocent bystander can be hit with your bullet, I care about that. And, if you think I'm off base go read the first post in this thread again, its what I am responding to in my posts.

[R.H. Lee]

Feticide by Vehicle Dayum! That actually happens?

[P95Carry]

confidently neglect to explain how they apparently see into the future far enough to know when they will be in given situation, so they don?t carry. TFW - that is the reason I encourage folks to carry at all times it is legal. No one can make appointements for emergencies and no one is likely to have sufficient precognition to see that ''today's the day I better carry!"

I put on in morning - I take off at night - and in between I'd say my risk quotient - on a scale of 1 to 10 is around, at worst - 0.001 most of the time!! However - should a crisis occur from which I am unable to flee - then I'd sure better know that the piece is there, like always - rather than reach for empty space thinking - oops - maybe I should have had it! Too late.

I am fully expecting and hoping that by the time the worms have me on their menu - I will never have fired a shot in anger - and I hope that applies for all of us.... every one.

[wa_cowboy24]

I am old fashioned but I have been raised that you only draw your weapon if you intend to end someones life, I dont believe in intimidation if I draw I am going to fire. A police officer once told me that in a matter where you feel imminent danger it is better to kill then be killed, "dead men tell no tales"
I live in washington and the use of deadly force is outlined as the use of force used must meet not exceed that of the asailent. if you carry a gun for protection then you must be mentaly ready to use that weapon should the need arise a weapon in the hands of a untrained person is far more dangerous than one who has commited themselves to use it.

[Fletchette]

I think shooting is a great hobby/sport and I look forward to going to the range each week. I also feel that the majority of people issued CCW are very responsible and careful about their weapons. I do take exception when that small minority use any excuse to flash, or pull their guns, however.

Pythonguy,

I do not think shooting is just a great hobby and sport, it is a right. I am glad that you agree that those that flash guns for bravado are a very small minority. I don't think that anyone here on The High Road is advocating such behaviour.

As for when to draw a gun in sincere fear of losing life or limb? Well, that is self explainatory- when you are in fear of losing life or limb. Most juries would not agree with you if you said that you were simply arguing. However, if the other person demonstrates the intent to do serious physical harm to you, then you have the legal right to defend yourself. This may be different in different cases. As someone else pointed out, if you are rather small and a huge, strong person starts beating you, you are probably justified in shooting him even if he has no "weapon". On the other hand, I have taken punches from guys and never thought to draw my gun as I can take a few punches.

Once while I was driving home I turned left on an intersection of a single lane road. I had looked to the right and saw a car off in the distance, far away. Well, that car was moving very fast so by the time I got into my lane the driver of the other car nearly side-swiped me. Instead of continuing on, he slowed down a little and came to a stop at an angle, blocking the road. I decided against putting my car into reverse as preditor instinct is to pursue a fleeing prey. I did not want to get shot at from behind. So I drew my .45 from my shoulder rig, and sat there. I did not get out.

The other car's door opened, but the driver only put his foot on the ground. I could see a women arguing with the male driver, pushing and pulling. Eventually the driver got back into the car fully and drove off.

Had I got out, there would have been a fight, most likely with bad consequences.

Had I tried to drive off I would have initiated a car chase, again- bad consequences.

What I did was "stand my ground", as the recent Florida law has been revised to. I did not brandish my weapon, it was in my hand on my lap, out of sight.

It is incidents like this that anti-gunners never factor into their arguements.

[Omni04]

i understand the concept of drawing yoru gun and it is a line once you cross you an't very well go back. What about just placing your hand on it, holding it but keeping it in its holster? You aren't drawing it but it at least lets the guy know you mean business (and if concealed he will know you are armed then)

what about that?

[AhmuqGB]

I agree with most of the posts here, The point to draw is righ tafter you have decided to eliminate the threat. I don't think I would put a hand on it unless I already made the decision to follow through with the draw presentation and engagemnet. Never write I check you are not willing to cash and showing hesitation on the draw may be taken as "reluctance" to draw by some and it definately escilates the situation in either event.

[lostone1413]

Only thing their I wonder what would constitute brandishing your gun? Could be wrong but I think in someplaces that would cross the line

[Igloodude]

i understand the concept of drawing yoru gun and it is a line once you cross you an't very well go back. What about just placing your hand on it, holding it but keeping it in its holster? You aren't drawing it but it at least lets the guy know you mean business (and if concealed he will know you are armed then)

what about that?

Why does he need to know I mean business? He'll find out soon enough, should he force the issue.

[P95Carry]

Never write I check you are not willing to cash and showing hesitation on the draw may be taken as "reluctance" to draw by some and it definately escalates the situation in either event. ahmuqGb - small rider to that - whilst I agree re check cashing - mostly - I do feel that there can be conditions where the appearance of ''going for it'' can be enough - it has happened.

Circumstances as ever alter events but there are IMO apparent severe threat situations where this conveys a quick message - instance knife wielder at a yet safe distance - who may change his mind. Added to which the hand on piece is the start of a draw which can for most be still very quickly accomplished... it has already saved a significant chunk of time.

Heaven knows tho - no way to decide until situation is there - right in front! All I know is, if ''presentation threat'' succeeds on its own and no recourse to live fire - I'm a happy camper! :)

[38SnubFan]

i understand the concept of drawing yoru gun and it is a line once you cross you an't very well go back. What about just placing your hand on it, holding it but keeping it in its holster? You aren't drawing it but it at least lets the guy know you mean business (and if concealed he will know you are armed then) In many places that would be considered "brandishing", and would get you criminally charged for such.

Furthermore, you DO NOT "show" (unconceal) the weapon unless you are prepared to draw the weapon. You DO NOT draw the weapon (or even prepare to draw the weapon) unless you are prepared to pull the trigger.

A CCW is NOT an item used to intimidate others. It is a tool that is used to SAVE YOUR LIFE or the life of another.

OK. 'Nuff said.

-38SnubFan

[P95Carry]

38snub - not trying to be picky and I agree with you 98% :p

BUT - my contention is - I'd rather avoid a shooting and if in the final moment when it looks like things have gotten outa hand - there just may be a chance that appearing to go for it - could defuse a less than confident bad guy - surely better all round if no shots fired - even if in places ''brandishing'' is a problem. This would not happen of course if a gun is threatening me directly... that makes decisions VERY precise ... but someone threatening with say a tire lever - lot of threat but a chance maybe to defuze.

I would prefer to explain a brandishing (if my movement toward an unseen gun was taken as such) than be explaining why the body in the morgue has several of my bullets in it!

So - no offence intended - even if I seem pedantic. :)

[38SnubFan]

P95,

No offense taken. I agree with you totally that someone with a chain, tire iron, or other heavy object would be cause to place a hand on the firearm. Heck, if he's advancing towards me after being warned to stay back, I'd be drawing and putting that front sight on his COM.

What I was referring to was if the subject was completely unarmed and bare-handed. Only expection I could make to that is if the attacker is much larger than me, or I know has the skills to take my life with his bare hands; or I am outnumbered by a group of thugs who would simultaneously beat me to death.

Again, no offense taken. More than happy here to explain my reasonings and even "debate" them a little.

-38SnubFan

[mnrivrat]

If I summarize this I would say a lot of different ways to express the same thing.
Each situation can be just different enough to justify a slighty different response. The base line on wether to expose and or touch your CCW is a reasonably and responsibly percieved threat of serious harm and/or death.

I think under most conditions of that nature it would be advisable to draw and be prepared to fire. Then let the other person decide (if time allows) wether they want to get shot or not.

To simply brandish a firearm should in many cases (somwhat speculation on my part) wake up the agresser and cool the situation, the problem then however is explaining how you percieved the threat so serious, but only showed your firearm without drawing it. As long as the threat has come to this level, it is my opinion whether the gun is brandished in your hand ready to fire ,or in the holster, may make a difference.

[JShirley]

Do not brandish your firearm. Yes, as at least one person has stated- and others have carefully noted afterward- Georgia has no brandishing law.

Now: placing a hand on your weapon is not something I would typically do, unless (perhaps) using in-pocket carry, when it can be done unobtrusively. Grabbing the butt of your weapon in hopes that this action will stop the attack is foolish.

If you have distance, but not yet a clear justification to fire, start by blading your body. Drop your side with the firearm away from the threat. This will do two things: first, you will have more distance to safely make your drawstroke, and secondly, your actions will now be largely hidden by your body.

If there are witnesses, if possible, make them your witnesses. IF YOU HAVE TIME, a loud Drop the weapon! would not be amiss. If you have time, a repeat warning would be even better. If you can safely back at least somewhat away during this, even more power to you.

If you cannot reasonably flee, are facing imminent threat and are in fear of your life or grievous harm after these steps, draw and fire until the threat is nonthreatening.

Do NOT "draw and be prepared to fire". If you are threatened, and the other steps satisfying use of lethal force have been fulfilled, DRAW AND FIRE. The time to de-escalate is before the firearm is produced. There IS NO "give the person time to decide". Perp has from the time I start the drawstroke to the time he is covered by my front sight to cease aggressive action, so he'd better be fast. If you are not under enough threat to force you to move with alacrity, I would suggest you are not under enough threat to force you to use lethal force, and if you are under such threat, you have no time to monkey around- address the threat.

One always has the option of understanding disparity of force. As I mentioned, I am very fit, strong and trained- but most of my adult life I've weighed under 150 lbs. I believe I can readily convince a jury- or even, probably the LEO on scene- that I felt at risk of grievous injury from the 215-lb guy I just ventilated. The same could go for those with disabilities or injuries, facing multiple attackers, or as usually suggested, weapons.

There is that horrible in-between area, where one may not feel justified in using lethal force, but when some defense may be called for. That's the real danger area, and a great place for pepper spray.

John

[mnrivrat]

Do NOT "draw and be prepared to fire". If you are threatened, and the other steps satisfying use of lethal force have been fulfilled, DRAW AND FIRE. The time to de-escalate is before the firearm is produced. There IS NO "give the person time to decide".

Hi John, I respectfully disagree . I think there are circumstances that allow for brandishing to be the deciding factor to de-escalate a threat. I have no desire to pull the trigger unless I absolutely have to.

I just don't believe in half-ass brandishing . If it gets to that point I believe you must draw and point the weapon being prepared to fire.

[JShirley]

Well, I'll certainly agree with you on not wanting to fire on another human. I believe that the talking should be over when you clear leather, though. I also don't believe in pointing a firearm at someone/thing I'm not in the process of shooting.

John